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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.09 12:44:00 -
[1]
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: lebrata
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: lebrata
Yes it does.
No, not really.
Yes it really does.
Ah kindergartens with net accessability ,whos idea was this? :(
/points
HE started it...
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.09 14:50:00 -
[2]
Removing ECM would push the game even more towards the gank/tank slug fest kinda deal that sucks gigantic donkey balls.
Keep it and we force ppl to be more mobile and versatile in their combat choices and strategies. |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.09 15:03:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Murina on 09/01/2009 15:04:04
Originally by: daisy dook
Originally by: Murina
Removing ECM would push the game even more towards the gank/tank slug fest kinda deal that sucks gigantic donkey balls.
Keep it and we force ppl to be more mobile and versatile in their combat choices and strategies.
But I want an ECM ship to do more than just ECM; I want to shoot things and have a chance of surviving *sob* *sob*
Buy a rook or a scorp, work at closer ranges and stay aligned or work with RR gangs.....
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.09 15:23:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Murina on 09/01/2009 15:26:23
Originally by: Beverly Sparks
Having your Armor repairer, or you damage mods go offline in the middle of a fight causes you to have to adapt.
Nuets already have that effect on active tanks, and having dmg mods go offline is hardly the end of the world.
Originally by: Beverly Sparks Instead of binary situations, fit ECCM or don't. With ECM we don't care about the pilot skill, because you can't target anything anyway.
I never fit ECCM as my gangs use repositioning/maneuverability and versatile fittings plus a good amount of teamwork to beat ecm heavy gangs. |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.09 17:46:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Isabelle Sparks
There are a million possibilities, that add more to the game then someone being able to do something, or not.
It would add the ability to make ecm useless for ppl who are emo about getting jammed.
Originally by: Isabelle Sparks Fitting ECCM should protect you versus ECM, because you are using up a slot in your build to counter a single other module in the game. What would be the point of fitting it if it did not work?
Hardeners take up a slot and do not give the sort of immunity your talking about.
Originally by: Isabelle Sparks Damage is hardly comparable to electronic warfare. ECCM is the counter for ECM, it should most definitely work, just as ECM should work in the absence of ECCM.
It does work.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.09 18:15:00 -
[6]
Originally by: a'akanelle
Originally by: Isabelle Sparks I think Beverly had some excellent points all the way through this discussion. On or off mechanics never work particularly well. It is the shades of grey that make a game interesting.
Beverly certainly does make some good points but if you are going to compliment yourself at least make an alt with a completely different name.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.09 21:37:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Murina on 09/01/2009 21:44:33
Originally by: Murina
Removing ECM would push the game even more towards the gank/tank slug fest kinda deal that sucks gigantic donkey balls.
Keep it and we force ppl to be more mobile and versatile in their combat choices and strategies.
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong No it won't,
It already does, well at least it does for those with the teamwork and individual skill to do so....
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong we will just see all sorts of ewar used instead of one dominating and overpowered one.
But you think removing ecm means ppl will fly other recons more?.
Gratz on the stupidest post and most pitiful reasoning ever.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.09 21:51:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Murina on 09/01/2009 21:51:48
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Murina
But you think removing ecm means ppl will fly other recons more?.
Gratz on the stupidest post and most pitiful reasoning ever.
Which means ecm is overpowered. Quite excellent logic tbh.
Logic how is that logic, ppl fly the other recons as solo ships or tacklers in certain gang scenarios cos that is where their str lies and ppl fly ecm ships in gangs cos that is where their str lies.
Try this logic, falcons are underpowered cos they cannot fly solo while the others can.....fact. See what i did there?.
You really have no clue do you?. |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.10 12:08:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Murina on 10/01/2009 12:13:17
Originally by: Malcanis
Because with 5 jammers fitted, you could cripple 5 enemy ships. Every time. No chance based crap: you will definitely offline some of their mods.
A utterly useless "crap shoot" of a ability as you do not know what modules you are effecting woulds make it worthless. Ppl know how damps and TD's exactly effect ships so they can structure their tactics and combat around the results.
But to make ECM a moronic "crap shoot" module that effects unknown modules would make it a useless if not dangerous to rely on if your looking for good skilled and teamwork reliant pvp.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.10 12:32:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Malcanis
Because with 5 jammers fitted, you could cripple 5 enemy ships. Every time. No chance based crap: you will definitely offline some of their mods.
A utterly useless "crap shoot" of a ability as you do not know what modules you are effecting woulds make it worthless. Ppl know how damps and TD's exactly effect ships so they can structure their tactics and combat around the results.
But to make ECM a moronic "crap shoot" module that effects unknown modules would make it a useless if not dangerous to rely on if your looking for good skilled and teamwork reliant pvp.
Well I'm going to go ahead and assume that the majority of PvP ships are fitted with modules that the pilots think they need, and that their ships will be significantly impaired if they lose a good number of them.
Not knowing exactly what you are disrupting would make ecm a crap, pointless and stupid module and you know it. |
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.10 12:54:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Malcanis
Whereas not knowing if you're going to disrupt them at all is just fine...?
You know as soon as you activate the module if its worked or not with ALL ewar as it is and you know the exact effect they have. |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.10 13:08:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Malcanis
Whereas not knowing if you're going to disrupt them at all is just fine...?
You know as soon as you activate the module if its worked or not with ALL ewar as it is and you know the exact effect they have.
Well ECM is gonna be nerfed, since CCP have low resists to whining. So you can have uncertain and weak or certain and weak.
Link to the announcement pls?.
I have seen a lot of threads started (by the same ppl over and over again) but all those threads would have died if it had not been for ppl saying ECM was fine.
Your argument and idea has failed try not to be so bitter about it.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.10 14:30:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Murina on 10/01/2009 14:30:57
Originally by: CAiNE999
lol, what like blobbing falcons instead?
Blobs of falcons are pointless as you cannot assign so many individual jams to so many individual ships while in combat, its imposable.
Originally by: CAiNE999 Basically id like to see a rework of ECM, along this white noise idea, like real ECM, disrupting equipment.
Targeting systems are "equipment" and ECM disrupts them, so yay its fine.
PS: You need to work on your quoting as you are barely understandable and seem like your ranting.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.10 14:49:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Murina on 10/01/2009 14:50:46
Originally by: Pen Dulum Fix ECCM.
Then you wont see as many whines about falcons, cause lets face it eccm just doesnt work.
Like last week me and some mate's went to fight a alliance we dec'd, 4 of us vs 12 of them (they had 12 on gate) we jump in in domi's fitted with a ECCM t2 in mid slot. A Falcon uncloaks 150k away and even with eccm fitted STILL jammed us so we just soaked up the dps and jumped out as quite frankly there is no point even fighting.
ECCM should not make you immune to ECM just make you harder to be jammed and it works fine.
And it serves you right for flying one race of ship using static, immobile and predictable tactics and giving them the option to fit one type of racial jammer at max str against you.
Lack of versatility and mobility was your problem not ecm.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.10 15:01:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Murina on 10/01/2009 15:02:40
Originally by: CAiNE999 Targeting as in locking a ship is not equipment, modules are equipment in that sense your saying ECM should shut off propulsion, your hud, and your overview, as those are `equipment` on ships as well
RL ecm effects targeting systems.
THIS?.
Originally by: CAiNE999 instead of calling someone emo
THEN THIS LOL.
Originally by: CAiNE999 ECM IS NOT FINE!
No no not emo at all...... |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.10 15:07:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Murina on 10/01/2009 15:09:17
Originally by: CAiNE999 Oh of course i forget, caps mean emo rage not trying to draw attention to something
Yea on a forum its the same as stamping your little foot.... |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.10 15:28:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Iva Soreass
Originally by: Murina
Bull**** - ECM//Falcons ARE Overpowered and anyone who says they aint fly the FOTM peice of ****e, the last time a ship//mod was as OP as the falcon//ecm is it was nerf'd back to the stone age (Damps//Arazu).
Damps were nerfed cos they were way too effective on non bonused ships and like a lot of ppl i think the bonused ships like the arazu needs a buff to damp str/range.
Try to contain your emo and language pls. |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.10 15:45:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Murina on 10/01/2009 15:48:26
Originally by: CAiNE999
- Energy Ewar only draining 1-2 ships but having injectors to counter, and able still to fight as cap drains, or after in some cases
Superb effect when used in solo combat and on the recons with 2 ewar bonuses. Also highly effective and regularly used on non bonused ships its effect is also 100% guaranteed within its effective range.
Originally by: CAiNE999 - Tracking Disrupting Ewar Reducing turret accuracy, but still the ability to fire and lock, point etc, and if transversal and speed is reduced, lessened effect, and why drone and missile boats are excluded and totally immune
Another specific ewar system used effectively on solo ships especially the recons that have 2 ewar systems. Also effective on non bonused ships its effect is also 100% guaranteed within its effective range.
Originally by: CAiNE999 - Sensor Dampening Ewar Reducing locking range/speed of at best, 1 ship to the point where it cannot lock a few KM away or take several times as long, only a danger to long range bs and small stuff, ie blasterthrons dont give a toss to range dampening and i dont see many if any speed damp fits
A great system when used on non bonused ships even after the nerf due to its effect being 100% guaranteed within its effective range.
Originally by: CAiNE999 Then explain and justify why ECM can...blah blah.
ECM is useless when used on non bonused ships due to its chance based mechanic, it is also useless in solo combat and close range combat for the same reason (unlike all the other ewar systems that work fine on non bonused ships).
It is a gang ship/module pure and simple and the only way it can KILL another ship is if it has at least one more ship along to tackle and do dmg.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.10 15:51:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Murina on 10/01/2009 15:55:08
Originally by: Malcanis
Did you miss the part where I said I have flown falcons a lot? I have. I still do sometimes, when there's no reasonable alternative. I have pretty good skills and a lot of experience with Caldari ECM ships. I'm not theorycrafting about some ship I know nothing about here. I'm speaking for personal knowledge: Falcons are bloody boring ships to fly and they're boring to fight. I do NOT believe that ECM ships are overpowered, I believe that they're bad ships because they're dull.
You can apply that logic to any ship that works at long range, warp in, align out/lock and fire is hardly exciting.....on the other hand the actual combat can be, especially if you have a ECM ship along for some tactical jamming against high risk assets.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.10 16:09:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Murina on 10/01/2009 16:16:35
Originally by: Iva Soreass You know it and i know it the failcon is overpowered and eccm does NOT work properly.
The falcon is fine and eccm can give a 90+% boost to str, a rather larger boost than any other mod gives to a stat....
Originally by: Iva Soreass You can sit there and be the failcon fanboy all you want but you know it's gonna get nerf'd its just a matter of when.
I doubt it but if your right there's no need for you to bleat out any more emo hate rants then....
Originally by: Iva Soreass So have fun flying it in its current state while you can cause it wont be for long.
I will and it will not be changed just so ppl like you can run around in your limited gank gangs.
Originally by: Iva Soreass I say it again BULL****E and getting emo lol? next you will be saying go back to WoW huh ?
After reading your posting style id say that will be your probable next line..
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.10 16:15:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Murina on 10/01/2009 16:15:59
Originally by: CAiNE999 I asked for a comparison of ECM vs Other EWAR
Then your asking a stupid question as the systems are not alike nor should they be.
Originally by: CAiNE999 your talking about solo, sure they can solo
Not effectively they cannot, while the other recons are great solo ships.
Originally by: CAiNE999 Also how many FC will take another recon over a falcon if presented with that choice for general purpose fleets?
That depends on the gang setup, purpose and content.
Originally by: CAiNE999 And whats this about Non bonused ships? im not talking about non bonused ships
You should be as you are preaching about ALL ewar systems including ECM and ALL the others apart from ECM are very effective on non-bonused ships while ecm is a waste of time on anything but a bonused ship.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.10 16:22:00 -
[22]
Originally by: CAiNE999
Rofl is like everyone emo to you?
Bad language is a sign of poor self control.
Originally by: CAiNE999 ....like gormless ****s......than sit there like a gormless ****
Try to chill.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.10 17:52:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Murina The falcon is fine and eccm can give a 90+% boost to str, a rather larger boost than any other mod gives to a stat....
Originally by: Terianna Eri MWD gives you a 500+% velocity increase
And has a proportionate effect on cap and sig and PG/CPU..
Originally by: Terianna Eri AB gives you over 100% velocity increase
Similar boost that eccm gives.
Originally by: Terianna Eri 1600mm armor plates can double the armor HP of a cruiser
ECCM doubles (*ok 96% but meh) the sig of a ship and has much less fitting problems than a 1600 plate on a cruiser would give.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.11 17:35:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Zephyr Rengate Falcon is OP simply because it operates out of the range of anything that can tackle and kill it.
So every ship that can operate at sniper range is OP?.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.11 17:43:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Murina on 11/01/2009 17:45:01
Originally by: Zephyr Rengate
Everyship that can disrupt so many ships with no effective counter is op,
Define effective as dmg hardeners could be considered ineffective as they do not FULLY block dmg, just like eccm does not FULLY prevent being jammed.
Originally by: Zephyr Rengate
nor do they cloak
I fit a cloak on my sniper regularly its very handy.
Originally by: Zephyr Rengate have the agility to warp off at the first sign of trouble, unless fully aligned.
No ship can warp off "at the first sign of trouble" unless its fully aligned lol, oh and a sniper BS can land and be aligned and ready to warp in around 10 seconds btw.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.11 22:24:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Yakov Draken i am a clueless noob troll
My arguments are valid, insightful and educational (for those willing to learn instead of just running str8 to ccp for a nerf), but if they are beyond your understanding i suggest you learn a little more before you post ad hominem attacks. |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.11 22:35:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Layrex I always thought of ECM as a method of ensuring as minimal ships are lost as possible, even if you'd win the fight anyway.
That is because of the mentality in eve that makes ppl only engage in fights they know they are gonna win. Doing anything to ecm will not change that and anybody who thinks it will is stupid. |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.13 22:52:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong The only chance based EWAR has the longest range as a buffer.
Fixed.L2P |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.13 23:15:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Jonas Barcal Oh while we're nerfing things nerf dps by 95% I want active tanking to be viable again.
It is viable in solo.
So head to sissi as its the only place you find solo pvp.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.14 15:38:00 -
[30]
Originally by: PsychoBones Jr
At any rate, I'm not going to argue with you about whether it actually happened or not, because I don't really care whether you believe me or not. I've made my argument against the Falcon, you'll make yours for it.
Your not the first and i doubt you will be the last to make claims about a falcon, not so long ago a carrier pilot made claims of having 500+ str and being"perma" jammed.
He even took a screen shot of his setup and showing that he was jammed although as soon as he was challenged to make fraps to prove it was a "perma" jam and not just a screenie of a single lucky cycle he went kinda quiet and stopped posting...........
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.14 18:30:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
That said, if it was just the falcon he would have escape just fine. What got him was a combination of tacklers and the falcon, which is perfectly fair on my view.
Their would be summat wrong with the game if a single ship could beat or even escape a BS, 2 ewar fitted recons and a couple of frigs unless it was uber tanked and station/gate hugging. |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.14 20:16:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Cohkka Smart players can deal with multiple targets on their own, there are ways and means.
Smart players can SOMETIMES deal with multiple idiots with no clue how to pvp, but with piloting skills and game knowledge equal the solo player will always lose to multiple ships.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.14 20:46:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Cohkka
Originally by: Murina
Smart players can SOMETIMES deal with multiple idiots with no clue how to pvp, but with piloting skills and game knowledge equal the solo player will always lose to multiple ships.
There is a biiiig gap between skilled PvPers and your ordinary gank bangers. Rarely you'll find a good solopilot up against equal players (just because there aren't that many), but yeah if he does he's toast, that's to be expected. Maybe the abscence of solo PvP caused a temporary loss of memory or something, but it's still very true.
Solo pvp is more simple math and opportunity than actual skill, unless you count in game knowledge and target choice as a skill. EVE has become rather predictable as far as ship fittings are concerned so a solo pvper if he is experienced should know pretty much exactly what he can and cannot beat before he decides to engage.
That is why certain types of ppl dislike falcons cos they add unpredictability into a fight that these so called skilled pvpers are unwilling to adapt to on the fly.
Personally i love gang combat on the other hand and especially when falcons/ecm are involved as they throw a spanner in the works and force me and my gangs to think fast and adapt during a fight instead of us just knowing exactly how we are gonna win before we even engage.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.14 21:07:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
There is a good reason why I trained recon 5 and all jamming skills to 4-5. There is also a good reason that thousands of new accounts are created to train the exact same thing in only a few months time.
Cos like command ships, logistics and cyno skills....ect ect, its a good support skill to have on a ALT but not so great and pretty useless to have on a main. |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.14 22:58:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Murina on 14/01/2009 23:01:39
Originally by: SLIM
1) It's easy to counter, just use your own ecm! - Um, if the only counter to ecm is MOAR ecm, then that doesn't work.
You need your eyes testing cos most of the posts here say nothing about using more ecm.....poor try at trolling considering the thread is here to read and hardly anybody is saying that....
Originally by: SLIM 2) Get some friends and gang up noob!
Correct, but a gang is not a blob and if your up against a falcon you can bet its part of a team/gang as they do not solo.
Originally by: SLIM 3) ECM ships have no hp! - Who cares, if it gets shot by a sniper, it warps out.
That applies to every ship in the game that can operate at sniper/long ranges.
Originally by: SLIM 4) Adapt or die! - Nice sentiment.
Its and its also better than crying to CCP cos your enemies will not fight in your preferred close gank/tank optimal ranges
Originally by: SLIM ECM is also overpowered because it breaks the fight/flight balance.
ECM is fine in fact it makes pvp a lot more interesting instead of being predictable.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.14 23:04:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Murina on 14/01/2009 23:05:32
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Murina
ECM is fine in fact it makes pvp a lot more interesting instead of being predictable.
Nope, it makes it boring and it requires less skill from all parts. The only reason it is allowed to be overpowered is that ccp makes alot of money off the hordes of falcon alts.
So ban capitals cos they need cyno alts?, or logistic ships?, or CS as they can all be trained on the same "falcon alt" account?.
Your idea as per usual fails to show any logic as most players have 2 accounts because of the reasons above.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.14 23:18:00 -
[37]
Originally by: SLIM
Plenty say that, check this and the falcon thread. And post with your main instead of your alt, please.
I have and very very few have said anything of the sort.
Originally by: SLIM The point being, if you want to solo you should be able to do it without running into an ecm alt every 5 minutes.
Solo pvpers already have to be careful when they pick targets so they do not suffer that much, and screwing over a great ship that makes gang pvp highly varied and unpredictable just so a few solo pvpers can have a easy life is wrong.
Originally by: SLIM Um, back up your point with evidence please. How does ECM NOT break the fight/flight balance.
For starters its chance based unlike all the other ewar systems so you never know if your gonna get a jam cycle or not. As most ships and fits in eve are well documented most gangs know what they can and cannot beat even before they engage, ecm breaks that rule as your tacklers or dmg dealers or even logistics could be jammed for 20 secs (or not) forcing players to adapt pro-actively actually in combat. |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.14 23:20:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Murina
So ban capitals cos they need cyno alts?, or logistic ships?, or CS as they can all be trained on the same "falcon alt" account?.
Your idea as per usual fails to show any logic as most players have 2 accounts because of the reasons above.
rant
Go play your new game. |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.14 23:25:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
rant
Go play your new game.
Running out of arguments? ....REAL arguments?
I consider making references to 4 legged animals in a total mind wipe of a troll but only a real fool would do that....
Just go away your arguments are non existant and getting more absurd as you go on. |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.14 23:27:00 -
[40]
Originally by: SLIM
Originally by: Murina
For starters its chance based unlike all the other ewar systems so you never know if your gonna get a jam cycle or not. As most ships and fits in eve are well documented most gangs know what they can and cannot beat even before they engage, ecm breaks that rule as your tacklers or dmg dealers or even logistics could be jammed for 20 secs (or not) forcing players to adapt pro-actively actually in combat.
Oh yea, I'm in goddamn suspense over whether my combined 70 jam strength is going to break these two intys' locks.
So you use the most extreme and almost lowest sig str gang ships to give your argument credence?.
I think its you who needs help with his arguments pal.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.14 23:30:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Murina
For starters its chance based unlike all the other ewar systems so you never know if your gonna get a jam cycle or not.
All other ewar is stacking nerfed. ECM is not BECAUSE it is not stacking nerfed. You seem to think that ECM being chance based is something bad when in fact it is something good because you can with enough ecm power do your job just fine and better because it is not stacking nerfed. It is actually better to have a chance based ew without stacking penalty then a non chance based one with a stacking penalty.
So falcon deliberately fight at close range cos their ewar system is chance based and so better at those ranges than those that work 100% guaranteed?.........hey wait....
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong You really need more understanding of eve game mechanics, your arguments are total bogus tbh.
I suggest you take your own advise tbh...
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.14 23:31:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Murina on 14/01/2009 23:32:00
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Murina your arguments are non existant and getting more absurd as you go on.
Anyone else see the irony in this?
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong "You count 4 legs on an animal and say: Well a horse has 4 legs so every time I count 4 legs on something it is a horse" or like saying "Person A is not angry, therefor he must be happy" when in fact he could be in a 3rd of 4th mood like tired or excited.
IM SURE THEIRS SOMEBODY OUT THEIR THAT LOVES HORSES WHO THINKS SO.....
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.14 23:35:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Murina
IM SURE THERE'S (=THERE IS) SOMEBODY OUT THEIR THAT LOVES HORSES WHO THINKS SO.....
I'm so nice so I will fix your post.
That hard up and desperate to get summat right are you?.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.14 23:40:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Murina on 14/01/2009 23:41:17
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Murina
That hard up and desperate to get summat right are you?.
What does summat mean? I can't find that in an english dictionary.
You must have put t with your eve tech manual......"perma" jamming ships with high sig str indeed... |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.15 11:31:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Murina on 15/01/2009 11:32:13
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: chrisss0r
What people always miss out and what really makes the computing of permajamchances difficult (and no i don't mean difficult in like people cannot compute chances....) is the fact that you can try a single jammer and if you don't succeed you can add another.
This has 2 major effects: 1. If the falcon misses a cycle on you you don' get a full cycle of not being jamed. You earn the second of not beeing jammed till more jammers are applied which is why there are many more "permajams" experienced than on paper.
2. To compute the jamming chances for every single jammer u add you need the bayesian probability calculus. it's a bit complicated to explain it to such fools as you are but i'll try:
The moment you put a jammer on a ship and get a success or a fail u have gathered information. This results in not adding a second jammer in the moment of success or adding a second jammer in the moment of fail. The fact that you don't add your space jammers in a moment of success leads to the higher propabilities of permajamming This game has as many stages as a falcon has jammers free and together with (1) it is why so many more permajams occur than the (1-jamchance)^number of jammers fumula returns The formula is still true but only after you have all your jammers applied. So to speak the chance of jamming someone if highly biased into the beginning of a fight, and most of eves fights don't last long enough
So please shut the **** up if you have no clue
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_probability
Oh and I dare you to refute this tbh, you'll just make a fool out of yourself. You know why? Many of us have studied maths on college level here, we kow when you are putting up bull**** maths.
So you studied maths at college, and what you gained from it is the ability to figure out that if a ECM ship fits a full rack of a single race of jammers (say gallente) that he will have a better chance of jamming gallente ships than a player who's ECM ship fitted 1 jammer of each race.......
WOW...did they also show you this amazing invention called the wheel while you were at college?.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.15 21:01:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong THE MECHANIC THAT EXPLAINS THAT DIFFERENCE IS CALLED STACKING NERF. ECM IS NOT STACKING NERFED. D O Y O U U N D E R S T A N D O R N O T?
oh oh emo rage alert.
Any way 3 SB will not allow a sniper to hit at snipe range if he is damped, so they are not that effective.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.15 21:09:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong THE MECHANIC THAT EXPLAINS THAT DIFFERENCE IS CALLED STACKING NERF. ECM IS NOT STACKING NERFED. D O Y O U U N D E R S T A N D O R N O T?
oh oh emo rage alert.
Any way 3 SB will not allow a sniper to hit at snipe range if he is damped, so they are not that effective.
3 SBs can protect any sized ship from getting damped into uselessness.
Unless it needs to snipe...... |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.15 21:24:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Malcanis I, on the other hand, can quote one where I said that it wasn't, but that it is not relevant.
Good, can you then help me explain that to murina and her squad of special people?
I never said ECM was stacking nerfed either, i pointed out it was chance based while the others work 100% perfectly in their ranges, so long range is a must for it.
Although 3 x jammers with 50% chance to jam does not = 150% chance to jam a single ship.......hardly a traditional stacking penalty but still worth mentioning.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.15 21:34:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Murina
I never said ECM was stacking nerfed either, i pointed out it was chance based while the others work 100% perfectly in their ranges, so long range is a must for it.
Although 3 x jammers with 50% chance to jam does not = 150% chance to jam a single ship.......hardly a traditional stacking penalty but still worth mentioning.
Finally you admit it.
I am not admitting anything i am telling the truth, its you who lies and manipulates facts mr perma jam 3 BS....
Oh and if 50 falcons are focused on the same target then its a waste of ships and resources and utterly impractical. |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.15 21:40:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Murina on 15/01/2009 21:40:51
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
That is not the point. The point is ECCM sucks. Three reasons are that it is too weak, ship size dependent and that ECM is not stacking nerfed.
The point that your scenario is totally bogus and utterly unrealistic in actual combat in eve is the entire problem and it shows in your naive posting about combat.
ECM is chance based instead of stacking nerfed. |
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.15 21:59:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Murina
The point that your scenario is totally bogus and utterly unrealistic in actual combat in eve is the entire problem and it shows in your naive posting about combat.
ECM is chance based instead of stacking nerfed.
It does not matter that it is chance based. A chance based strong ew that is not stacking penaltized is better then non chance based ew that is stacking penaltized. Why? Because you can always dent the target ship with more power, there is no limit.
So bring moar shipz!!!!! is a invalid argument for fighting against falcons, but apparently bringing a blob of falcons is fine to use as a valid reason for nerfing them????...
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.15 22:36:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Kurt Ambrose
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Kurt Ambrose
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Then it is great it was there, isn't it? I mean if you had a ship that could disengage at will it would be blatantly overpowered.
You mean like a falcon?
Falcons are pretty much ****ed if they're tackled.
Any ship can "disengage at will" at long range. It's not like falcons have any monopoly on being aligned.
So yeah Kurt: you got any ideas about something more fun than ECM for Caldari EW?
Tackled = jam and warp out
Miss jam or get hit by a couple of volleys while waiting for an jammer to cycle = dead, and of course the tacklers buddies would also be in warp to him as well.....
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.15 23:42:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
2. The 3xSBs is just an example, dont be so anal.
God forbid you use realistic scenarios..... |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.15 23:46:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Murina
God forbid you use realistic scenarios.....
I know solo warfare is not realistic in your world.
Solo pvp is simple math that is decided before the fight eve starts simply by ship + fitting knowledge not skill. |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.15 23:54:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Murina
Solo pvp is simple math that is decided before the fight eve starts simply by ship + fitting knowledge not skill or in combat adaptability.
Actually it's not. Pure fitting wise there can be a world of difference in small head on encounters.
That is why solo pvpers lose ships occasionally, they cannot adapt if the target ship is not setup with the standard "i can beat it solo" fit...
You do not pvp you just scout for available targets you know you can proly beat.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.16 00:01:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Murina on 16/01/2009 00:05:57
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Murina
That is why solo pvpers lose ships occasionally, they cannot adapt if the target ship is not setup with the standard "i can beat it solo" fit...
You do not pvp you just scout for available targets you know you can proly beat.
What do you mean they cannot adapt if the target ship is not setup with the standard? You want to switch fittings in mid fight?
Exactly my point, a well setup gang can adapt to a situation, while solo fighting is totally about if the ship you are fighting is fitted so your fitting and ship can beat it or not.
A unexpected fitting and the solo player dies cos as i said he already knows what ships and standard fits he can beat.
That is not pvp it is target selection for easy kills. |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.16 00:15:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Murina on 16/01/2009 00:16:24
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Sorry but a mixed fleet is less skill. Why? Because it CAN kill any encounter as long as it is big enough. Yeah good skill. We all know blobbing is the best tactic to win, sad thing is that you are proud of it.
I never said anything about blobbing i was refering to fighting equal and greater numbers. But as per usual you try to troll and manipulate your way out of a ass kicking...
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo pvpers win alot of engagements even though they have non optimal fits and non optimal engagement terms.
Solo pvpers roam around looking for ratters (you know the guys with no tackle/web lol) or sit waiting travelers.....so real hard targets, and they still lose ship when faced with summat fitted differently that they expected.
A good pvp gang roams around looking for or provoking corps/alliances into sending pvp fitted gangs after them, then using team work and skill to kick ass. |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.16 00:26:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Murina
A good pvp gang roams around looking for or provoking corps/alliances into sending pvp fitted gangs after them, then using team work and skill to kick ass.
But that is not what you do.
Its exactly what i do and have done for a very long time, a solo noob and carebear ganker like you could never understand high spec pvp and the naivety of your posting makes that obvious. |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.16 00:31:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Murina
Its exactly what i do and have done for a very long time, a solo noob and carebear ganker like you could never understand high spec pvp and the naivety of your posting makes that obvious.
ad hominem
Any body reading your posts sees how noob you are i do not need to point it out, il just stay on topic i think.
So tell us more about how you "perma" jam 3-4 BS in your falcon, or how you think its a good idea to split fit racial's between 2 falcons in 10 man gangs.....
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.16 00:36:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Hey focus in the discussion, I want to see how many absurdities you still have in storage.
Easy to say I got the biggest house when you don't even show a picture of it. Sry but I smell alot of bull**** from both of you.
If you cannot discount the posting try to discount the poster hey pal????....
Come on tell us more about you perma jamming all those multiple BS in your falcon again i need a laugh....
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.16 01:00:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Jonas Barcal
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Truth is that you have no skill.
Truth is skill doesn't matter if you lose..
MMO bring friends solo might not be dead yet but we're trying
I don't lose. My kill stats are quite positive.
Solo ganking nubs and carebears who do not even have tackle fitted so even if you get into trouble you can bail is hardly summat to be proud of, or particularly skillful..... |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.16 01:08:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Wait so solo is harder then what you do?
Nope solo is target selection...thats it.
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong You sit in a gang of 20 and kill one ship.
Actually 20 man gangs are a bit larger than i like, upto a max of around 10 is preferable as with the right setup it has good alpha/dps for hit and run against larger gangs while also not being to blobby and uncontrollable.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.16 01:17:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Murina on 16/01/2009 01:21:54
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Wait so solo is harder then what you do?
No solo is math and fitting for a specific target/ship type...here listen to somebody who claims to be a expert...
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
This is a cruiser killer fit and it has a fighting chance against ceptors aswell.
I know how to ****ing fit a pure anti inty crusader.
Problem is that the anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.16 09:33:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Murina on 16/01/2009 09:34:22
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Murina
No solo is math and fitting for a specific target/ship type...here listen to somebody who claims to be a expert...
My records are in the open for everyone to see. Unlike your leet skills that we only "hear" about. You fail troll.
Oh oh...your posting is open to others as well pal...you are the one that needs specific "i-win vs X" fits to get kills, and you call that skill?.
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
This is a cruiser killer fit and it has a fighting chance against ceptors aswell.
I know how to ****ing fit a pure anti inty crusader.
Problem is that the anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.16 17:55:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Murina on 16/01/2009 18:04:09
Originally by: Joe Martin
1) The totality of the effect. Every other method of Ewar (which we'll generalize into non-damaging combat abilities) is manageable to a greater or lesser degree through basic game mechanics. ECM removes you from the fight COMPLETELY.
FOF, drones, non-static/stationary combat tactics or variable range fittings/setups.......
Originally by: Joe Martin 2) ECCM as it stands is NOT an effective counter.
Its a buffer against ecm and very effective when used on certain ships it is not a 100% guaranteed counter nor should it be.
Originally by: Joe Martin 3) Risk vs. Reward.
Ships that operate at long range all share a certain amount of invulnerability to getting hit (by ppl with limited range fits) or caught. The effect of ECM is very frustrating but it is also something that if relied on can lose a fight as well as it can help win it with a simple missed jam.
Also ECM ships are highly ineffective in large numbers as well as the fact that ECM modules are virtually worthless on non bonused ships while other ewar systems work rather well on any ship. |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.16 18:21:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Lilith Velkor
Originally by: Murina
Also ECM ships are highly ineffective in large numbers as well as the fact that ECM modules are virtually worthless on non bonused ships while other ewar systems work rather well on any ship.
Exactly, compare with TDs and then talk about overpowered
Fitted on a non bonused or solo ship?....sure..
TD's are better by far. |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.16 19:02:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Murina on 16/01/2009 19:06:42 Edited by: Murina on 16/01/2009 19:02:49
Originally by: Joe Martin
Assuming you're in a ship with drones/missiles, sure. I'm also not quite sure what not being stationary has to do with not being able to lock anything. Though adding tracking to ECM modules would be a comical (if not slightly effective?) fix.
Mobility is the most effective counter to ewar heavy gangs.
Originally by: Joe Martin Yes all ships that operate at range share a certain degree of invulnerability. But what the falcon does not share with them is that other ships must also sacrifice a load of effectiveness to get that range. Why should the falcon be any different?
Because unlike the other systems that operate and get more effective at close range, ECM gets less effective due to its chance based mechanic.
Originally by: Joe Martin The "putting all your eggs in one basket" syndrome. If a game mechanic relying purely on chance will make or break your gang and you know this going into a fight then I'd say that the problem is your FC, not ECM.
Exactly..the close range gankers and tankers in this thread and others are claiming that ECM (a chance based system) is causing them to lose..and you are also right it is their FC's not ecm.
Originally by: Joe Martin ECM is effective all the way up to fleet fights.
High numbers of ecm ships in large fleet ops are ineffective as target assignment is imposable.
Originally by: Joe Martin What other ship can render a small gang dead in the water from 200km?
No ship can do it not even the falcon, a gang always has the option to reposition and use hit and run tactics. PPL really need to be mobile in combat as lock target f5 is not skill.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.16 20:00:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Murina on 16/01/2009 20:06:05
Originally by: Joe Martin
If by mobility you mean to move out of the effective range of the falcon, I see several problems with that argument. Namely that the falcon's range is dictated by its own gang. If you want to move out of range of the falcon then you're likely going to move out of the range of the people you're shooting at in tandem.
EVE is a 3d game and as such you can be in a position outside the range of a falcon while also within range of his buddies, also warpins and out in hit and run attacks are very useful against larger numbers no matter how many falcons they have.
Originally by: Joe Martin Falcon pilots also have this nasty habit of having tactical warps just about everywhere, which further removes your ability to move completely out of range of a falcon.
Tactical warp points around gates or stations ect ect are available for everybody to make, just because the falcon pilot was smart enough and industrious enough to have some is to that pilots credit and if another player does not that is hardly a ship issue.
Originally by: Joe Martin Buh? Are you saying that ECM gets less effective the closer you are? I was unaware.
YUP, at close range all other systems work 100% and you know what to expect from them, but because ecm is chance based it cannot be predicted and as such at close range if you miss a jam you are dead.
Originally by: Joe Martin I think you misunderstood me, or rather missed the "make or break" part of my comment. If the falcon is your veritable ace in the hole, the crux of your gang to the point that perma-jams are required for victory then yes, you have a bad FC.
I understood the "make or break" comment perfectly (although i disagree with it tbh) but it is a two edged sword that cuts both ways as the falcon is a chance based mechanic.
Originally by: Joe Martin Or, if you instead take full advantage of everything vent has to offer, all the ECM can sit in a different channel and talk targets amongst themselves while still being able to hear the FC from another channel.
In a fleet fight and i will be generous and say its only 100 vs 100 assigning that many individual jams to so many individual jam ships each with a rack of jammers over vent is imposable, the fight would be over before you got half way down the list.
The tactic i developed for using high numbers of falcons in fleet ops had falcon pilots fitted for a specific race each and then i gave then instruction to use the overview to select their own targets, IE: I told them to set overview by race then 5 with amarr jammers fitted i told to start jamming amarr ships at certain parts of the overview so pilot number 1 started at the top number 2 started 6 ships down ect ect and i did this per race.
And even that was not perfectly effective as missed jams and forced warpouts left holes and the bigger the holes the more warp outs, the bigger the holes and on and on ect ect....
Originally by: Joe Martin The hard part, the fun part of EVE, is maneuvering your enemy into a position such that they're on the losing end of the deal while still getting them to stick around for a fight. That's what takes skill.
So picking a spot that falcons have a bunch of 200km BM's is the FC's rather silly idea?.
Originally by: Joe Martin The actual combat mechanics in EVE are not complicated. 95% of the time once both sides have aggressed the fight is already decided
Maybe and maybe not, things change in a fight and any gang (or even individual player in the gang) that is not prepared to disengage and re-engage if they are caught flat footed or out maneuvered is a poorly skilled player/gang. |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.16 20:24:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Murina on 16/01/2009 20:26:17
Originally by: Joe Martin
Well I really didn't come in arguing as i am a straw man troll, so I won't.
Fixed.
Now go away or add content troll.
PS: are you another of lyria's (the i-win ship vs X uber ganker) alts or just a pet?
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.16 21:28:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Joe Martin
Confirming that I am Lyria.
Originally by: Joe Martin Lyria and I are in the same corp (if you hadn't noticed already), but we rarely play together due to timezone differences.
Yup, contradicting yourself and looking kinda stupid....its confirmed your definatly who you say you are.....and say you are not as well....
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
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