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Kitchie
Gallente Kitchie's Logistics and Marketing Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.13 06:03:00 -
[1]
The people who come to the MD seem largely to fit into 3 categories and for all of them, the MD forum has a lot to offer if a few basic rules are followed.
Group 1:Non-regulars coming to ask how to make money trading or how to optimise their trading strategy.
Many of the regulars on MD are long-term, experienced and successful traders. Because of their success, some can come across as being arrogant but hey! You didnÆt come here looking for humility, you wanted to get advice from experts. The most successful in life are often arrogant, it helps to have an unquestioned belief in yourself û watch The Devil Wears Prada if you donÆt know what I mean.
So donÆt take anything personally, be the humble student and you will likely get useful information without tarnishing your image.
Group 2:Regulars, non-regulars and lurkers looking for investment opportunities
Bonds and IPOs seem to have picked up quite a bit of late and there are plenty of opportunities for investments but there are also a high percentage of failures amongst them. So how to spot the good ones?
Bonds and IPOs will default for 3 reasons, being Scam, Business Failure or burnout.
Burnout is very difficult to predict and too many outside factors can cause this, even with the most honest characters. Your only protection against burnout is if the issuer has left some form of collateral with a third party. Collateral is always good but will also represent the issues with the highest demand.
However Scams and Business Failures have a much higher chance of being identified here in MD. Read the forum for a while before considering investing. Learn who the most experienced experts are in each business field û it doesnÆt matter whether you like them or not, the more aggressively that they dissect the issuer and business plan, the more likely it will be that scams/failures will be identified. You might miss some issues because they were snapped up too fast but at least youÆll still have your capital.
Group 3:Anybody trying to raise money through an IPO or Bond Issue
Eve is awash with players who think that they can make good ISKies with their own business plan and in my opinion, a scam is as much a business plan as any other so I wonÆt distinguish between them in this section.
Firstly, if you have a major business plan then do an IPO through here, even if you already have the resources to execute it without raising capital. Why? Basically because your plan will be torn apart with every little detail questioned. It might be a great plan but you will also learn a lot that you may well not have thought of, so use the expertise thatÆs available at little or no cost.
Always be willing to submit to an audit. Nobody can steal anything through an audit, the established auditors here have an excellent reputation for discretion and an audit will establish your planÆs credibility.
Be polite, responsive, use a spell checker and read through your responses twice before posting. Sloppy posting is a precursor to sloppy business management.
And most importantly, donÆt be offended by anything that might be said. YouÆre here to raise capital so donÆt sink yourself by getting into a slanging match with someone who offended you û youÆll only come across badly to other potential investors.
Not sure why I wrote this, I was just thinking about what IÆd learned from reading MD for a few months
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2009.01.13 06:15:00 -
[2]
I linked this into the "new to investing" thread but I think it would be wiser if you reposted this into that thread where it will be stickeyed. Btw I disagree with you on only one point: I am not on that list.
I know I am useful & a "tool". Thus I qualify and I'm missing. |
Kitchie
Gallente Kitchie's Logistics and Marketing Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.13 06:22:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
I linked this into the "new to investing" thread but I think it would be wiser if you reposted this into that thread where it will be stickeyed. Btw I disagree with you on only one point: I am not on that list.
I know I am useful & a "tool". Thus I qualify and I'm missing.
You were one of the "experts" I was thinking about when I wrote this and if the part hadn't been given to Meryl Streep, you would have been perfect for it
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Astarte Nosferatu
Minmatar Abrivianius Manufacturing Corporation
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Posted - 2009.01.13 06:26:00 -
[4]
This is one of the first things anyone new and not so new in MD should read.
Good work . |
Ricdics
Tleilex Developments Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.01.13 07:30:00 -
[5]
Very solid post Great work. |
Taikun
Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.13 08:08:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Kitchie The people who come to the MD seem largely to fit into 3 categories and for all of them, the MD forum has a lot to offer if a few basic rules are followed.
Who Morderated.Applebabe are you to say these so called groups need to follow some pre-ordained set of rules? I say post what you want, when you want if and only if it pertains to DISCUSSING THE MARKET.
Which brings me to the point. THESE FORUMS ARE FOR DISCUSSING THE MARKET. Not limited or pidgenholed into three groups.
My spin on this forum is simple.
So called vets have their heads so far up each others tailpipes telling people how to post and in what format it is beyond a joke. Who died and anoited them Jebus's chosen few of the forums? I have long since stopped listening to them and gawd knows why anyone else does. They are exploitive and serve noone elses needs but their own pocketbooks.
They are involved in a mutual financial circle 'loving' to which they have conned CCP into kowtowing to their point of view for these forums.
ANY new posters wanting to DISCUSS THE MARKET have been scooted aside into a consolidated thread by CCP because these so called market gurus don't like to share their sandpit with others. So much for free, frank and open discussions. Tis a joke and THIS is something that deserves a sticky.
Taikun |
Kitchie
Gallente Kitchie's Logistics and Marketing Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.13 10:46:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Taikun
Originally by: Kitchie The people who come to the MD seem largely to fit into 3 categories and for all of them, the MD forum has a lot to offer if a few basic rules are followed.
Who Morderated.Applebabe are you to say these so called groups need to follow some pre-ordained set of rules? I say post what you want, when you want if and only if it pertains to DISCUSSING THE MARKET.
Which brings me to the point. THESE FORUMS ARE FOR DISCUSSING THE MARKET. Not limited or pidgenholed into three groups.
My spin on this forum is simple.
So called vets have their heads so far up each others tailpipes telling people how to post and in what format it is beyond a joke. Who died and anoited them Jebus's chosen few of the forums? I have long since stopped listening to them and gawd knows why anyone else does. They are exploitive and serve noone elses needs but their own pocketbooks.
They are involved in a mutual financial circle 'loving' to which they have conned CCP into kowtowing to their point of view for these forums.
ANY new posters wanting to DISCUSS THE MARKET have been scooted aside into a consolidated thread by CCP because these so called market gurus don't like to share their sandpit with others. So much for free, frank and open discussions. Tis a joke and THIS is something that deserves a sticky.
Taikun
And you flaming my post because of your views is "better" than others being flamed by those you define as being "market gurus"? I can't tell the difference
Seriously though, there are two responses that I'd like to make:
1) As far as I'm aware this is the only forum where people try and raise billions of ISK from other players. A lot of them are scammers and it's the only forum where scamming is allowed. So I'm sorry but that is going to breed a certain amount of cynicism amongst people who have lost money and respect for those who save us mere mortals from losing our shirts.
2) Because of that cynicism and the cutthroat nature of a forum where billions are raised and lost, my post was merely an effort to help those people who do want discuss and post here.
It seems to me that your efforts would be better spent lobbying CCP to have a seperate IPO and Bond forum so that the harsh analysis of those trying to raise funds, wouldn't offend your sensibilities.
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Golanbat
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Posted - 2009.01.13 11:32:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Kitchie Firstly, if you have a major business plan then do an IPO through here, even if you already have the resources to execute it without raising capital. Why? Basically because your plan will be torn apart with every little detail questioned. It might be a great plan but you will also learn a lot that you may well not have thought of, so use the expertise thatÆs available at little or no cost.
Classic. Genius even. Excellent insight. Kudos.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2009.01.13 11:42:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Taikun My spin on this forum is simple.
Truer words have never been said. There is no one or nothing much simpler than Taikun.
To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean. |
SentryRaven
KIA Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.13 11:53:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Taikun
Originally by: Kitchie The people who come to the MD seem largely to fit into 3 categories and for all of them, the MD forum has a lot to offer if a few basic rules are followed.
Who Morderated.Applebabe are you to say these so called groups need to follow some pre-ordained set of rules? I say post what you want, when you want if and only if it pertains to DISCUSSING THE MARKET.
Which brings me to the point. THESE FORUMS ARE FOR DISCUSSING THE MARKET. Not limited or pidgenholed into three groups.
My spin on this forum is simple.
So called vets have their heads so far up each others tailpipes telling people how to post and in what format it is beyond a joke. Who died and anoited them Jebus's chosen few of the forums? I have long since stopped listening to them and gawd knows why anyone else does. They are exploitive and serve noone elses needs but their own pocketbooks.
They are involved in a mutual financial circle 'loving' to which they have conned CCP into kowtowing to their point of view for these forums.
ANY new posters wanting to DISCUSS THE MARKET have been scooted aside into a consolidated thread by CCP because these so called market gurus don't like to share their sandpit with others. So much for free, frank and open discussions. Tis a joke and THIS is something that deserves a sticky.
Taikun
It got to the point, where I simply have to ask: Would you like some cheese to your whine?
Get over your bitterness already.... you are acting as if you are said Jebus from your own post... |
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.01.13 13:38:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Taikun My spin on this forum is simple.
Truer words have never been said. There is no one or nothing much simpler than Taikun.
I wholly disagree, I think sea slugs would qualify |
Ricdics
Tleilex Developments Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.01.13 13:41:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Ricdics on 13/01/2009 13:42:31
This forum should not be about stocks, bonds, ipo's or none of that nonsense.
It should be dedicated to stapler bouncing user error, demanding CCP staff dismissal and dirty insinuations on the physical health of others.
The Ten Commandments (By Taikun):
1) I am the Lord your God 2) You shall have no other gods before me 3) You shall not blame upon oneself user error 4) You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God 5) Remember the devs and force them homeless 6) Harass your father and mother (to sue CCP) 7) You shall not be concorded without petition 8) You shall commit adultery with female avatars 9) You shall not place stapler near work station 10) You shall not bear information without your God approval
Taikun would be in paradise if such a forum existed.
------------- I narrowed it down. Did anyone realise the severe lack of mathematical skills back when the Bible was written? According to this wiki entry here, there were anywhere between 12-21 commandments actually written. I am actually disgusted that the editor of the New Testament didn't notice such a blatant error, and in the name of our god (as per points 1,2,4,10) I would like to request the editor of this so called book be fired, and (insert Taikun comments directed at dev) --------------
I'm not religious by any means but I can't even repeat the things you wished upon those devs when making a joke about people who probably haven't been around for hundreds of years.
I always try to avoid posting at you Taikun as we actually have a good history but damn you like to stir crap up. You and Shar are so much alike it scares the hell out of me. Basically identical personalities on two different spectrums.
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Ricdics
Tleilex Developments Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.01.13 13:44:00 -
[13]
Also Taikun, there are like 50 different versions of the bible around, that has been printed billions of times. They can't fix a simple error in the number of commandments even after all that so not sure why you expect CCP to be able to do it.
They can't even walk on water, although i am sure Oveur has tried once or twice after a night at the pub. (I know I have) |
Astarte Nosferatu
Minmatar Abrivianius Manufacturing Corporation
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Posted - 2009.01.13 14:12:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Taikun
Who Morderated.Applebabe are you to say these so called groups need to follow some pre-ordained set of rules? I say post what you want, when you want if and only if it pertains to DISCUSSING THE MARKET.
Which brings me to the point. THESE FORUMS ARE FOR DISCUSSING THE MARKET. Not limited or pidgenholed into three groups.
My spin on this forum is simple.
So called vets have their heads so far up each others tailpipes telling people how to post and in what format it is beyond a joke. Who died and anoited them Jebus's chosen few of the forums? I have long since stopped listening to them and gawd knows why anyone else does. They are exploitive and serve noone elses needs but their own pocketbooks.
They are involved in a mutual financial circle 'loving' to which they have conned CCP into kowtowing to their point of view for these forums.
ANY new posters wanting to DISCUSS THE MARKET have been scooted aside into a consolidated thread by CCP because these so called market gurus don't like to share their sandpit with others. So much for free, frank and open discussions. Tis a joke and THIS is something that deserves a sticky.
Taikun
Droves of ignorant wannabee traders and entrepeneurs come here each and every day to try and beg, scam or cheat the more experienced MD regulars out of information to earn billions of isk. They come to us, so it's only natural that we have a set of 'rules' people have to adhere to before giving away precious information. This set of 'rules' usually is personal, some people will give out intel faster than others. The main point is, people depend on us, which gives us the power to do or ask what we want frankly. And still only thing most of us ask is proper spelling (spellcheck for the win!) and some effort to do some research instead of posting the same old stupid questions over and over and over again.
This is EvE, not hellokittyland of whatever. Nobody said it has to be fair, or nice, or generous. It's a though and cruel world, the sooner people get used to it, the faster they will make tons of isk.
If people don't like how some (most?) MD regulars behave on this forum, then don't visit it and don't ask the regulars for advice. You still have the choice you know. |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2009.01.13 14:27:00 -
[15]
Hmmmm, now that I've had a cup of coffee and some time to wake up I actually regret my initial response to Taikun. Having tried to step into his shoes, mentally, I find myself more and more sympathetic towards him. After all, he's consistent, forthright, and passionate. In every, and any, other case these would be assets.
The problem here is, as I've told him before, the level of vitriol in what he has to say. Yes, there are some lame people on this forum (including myself some days). Yes, there are people lining their own pockets at the expense of others via this forum (never me but meh - like you'd believe me).
However the slight validity of what Taikun has to say pales besides the overwhelming hostility and angst that he brings to the table. Sometimes I'm in awe, ME!, of how unpleasant Taikun chooses to be. And given his obvious intellect, it is - it has to be - a choice to be so angry and bitter.
Sadly, there is no cure for his bitterness. To cure it would require people to actually respect his position and that soapbox of his is a pile of crap. One can not develop any respect for a delusional prophet of doom standing around flinging his own poo at passerbys.
Simply can't happen.
To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean. |
Danae Ori
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Posted - 2009.01.13 14:40:00 -
[16]
Hey Kitchie! You probably don't know me, but I recognise your name as one of my couriers. Top job.
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MailDeadDrop
Globaltech Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.13 16:39:00 -
[17]
Edited by: MailDeadDrop on 13/01/2009 16:50:58 It appears that Kitchie has started a list of types of MD "participants". A compendium of MD participant types may be useful, but honestly I haven't given its potential usefulness much thought (tl;dr: this may be complete crap). I believe it is likely incorrect to state that there are only 3 types, or only 3 types worth listing, but that's merely my opinion.
I also haven't made even the barest of research into whether others have previously aggregated/categorized the MD types. If you know of prior work on this subject, please feel free to cite it (and leave my admitted laziness out of it). I'm going to attempt to refine Kitchie's initial list, and add my opinion of additional, noteworthy categories of MD participants below).
How to use this information Read the descriptions. If the behavior resonates with you (or with someone you're interacting), then the follow-up details can help you avoid the "known pitfalls".
Lazy trader(*) (*)Don't be offended by this writer's use of "lazy" here. Lazy in this case implies a certain efficiency: minimizing one's "excess thinking" and also (theoretically) minimizing running down deadends.
These people are often new traders, or are established non-trading players wishing to try their hand at trading. They seek the "book smart" way to becoming a successful market trader. This overlooks a few key points.
- Successful traders here may not want you to become a successful trader, too. "Why not?" you ask. Because they perceive trading as a competitive, zero-sum contest; every success of yours reduces their successes. Even those "enlightened" successful traders may be belligerent if they feel you have not researched the forum prior to asking for advice.
Implications and tactics: - Some "advice" may be intentionally faulty. Confirm before committing.
- Some established, successful traders may resent you asking for their "pearls of wisdom". Tread carefully. Remember that you came to "experts" looking for advice, and experts frequently lack humility (although damned few justifiably lack it).
- Use search (and eve-search.com) before posting.
- You are assuming that being successful through learning from other successful traders is "better" than learning from actual experience at trading. This is not always the case; for example, no amount of reading about riding a bicycle will actually teach you to ride a bicycle. (This writer makes no judgment as to which method of learning is better for Eve trading.)
Implications and tactics:- Know what kind of learner you are.
- Consider which sub-skills within trading are best learned by reading, and which are best learned by doing.
- Learning from others does not provide you the opportunity to discover things (through experience) that they overlooked/missed.
(continued)
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Emily Spankratchet
Minmatar Pragmatics
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Posted - 2009.01.13 16:58:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Taikun Who died and anoited them Jebus's chosen few of the forums?
I find this rather amusing, as the only posts of yours that I remember are those where you gleefully announce that you have a reported a thread that doesn't fit with your view of what MD should be.
FWIW, I like the original post. It's not pointlessly dogmatic, and seems to neatly encapsulate a lot of the business of MD. Of course, the people who would benefit from the advice are usually too busy being incandescent with rage at the way their IPO/"how do I make money?" post has been treated by the regulars.
Of course, I'm just a lurker with a poor memory so you should all ignore me. Nothing to see here. |
MailDeadDrop
Globaltech Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.13 17:05:00 -
[19]
Potential investors There are opportunities to invest in bonds and initial public offering (IPOs), but there are also a high percentage of failures amongst them. How can you spot the good ones?
Bonds and IPOs will default for 3 reasons: intentional scam, business failure, and burnout (also called "fatigue" or "real life interference").
Burnout is practically impossible to predict (for example, who among us knows when that bus is going to hit?). That said, there are still some ways that the issuer can mitigate loss for the investors if burnout strikes: - Collateral with a trusted third party
- Involvement of multiple players who are capable of "taking the reins"
- Short repayment plans (minimizes exposure to burnout risk)
While identifying "burnout" beforehand is hard, intentional scams and business failures have a much higher chance of being identified here in MD. Read the forum for a while before considering investing. Learn who the most experienced experts are in each business field û it doesnÆt matter whether you like them or not, the more aggressively that they dissect the issuer and business plan, the more likely it will be that scams/failures will be identified. You might miss some issues because they were snapped up faster than you were able to identify them as "acceptably risky" (to you), but at least youÆll still have your capital.
Intentional scams often exhibit "red flags" such as:- Unwillingness to submit to audit, or uncooperativeness ("footdragging") in the audit
- Unfavorable auditor's report
- Offer made by "unknown" character with no reputable recommendations, or worse!
- Incomplete details provided in offering
- Vague, non-responsive, or combative in response to questions about the offering
Future business failures can exhibit "red flags" such as:- Incomplete details provided in offering
- Vague, non-responsive, or combative in response to questions about the offering
- Naive or unsupported premise(s) used in offering
- Unfavorable auditor's report
(continued) |
MailDeadDrop
Globaltech Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.13 17:25:00 -
[20]
Debt issuers (Also called "those making the offering" and "offerers".) Eve is awash with players who believe that they can make good ISKies with their own business plan. (In the writer's opinion, a scam is as much a business plan as any other, and therefore will be treated as just another type of business plan.)
First, if you have a business plan and already have the funding in place, you may still receive benefit from posting an offering here. What would be the benefit of doing so? Because your business plan will be closely examined with numerous little details questioned. Such an examination could reveal aspects which you have overlooked, so use the expertise which is available at little or no cost (only the effort you put into making the offering).
Always be willing to submit to an audit. Nobody can steal any asset through an audit, the established auditors here have an excellent reputation for discretion, and an audit will establish your planÆs credibility.
Be polite, responsive, use a spell checker, and read through your responses twice before posting. If English is not your primary language, find someone to help you compose your responses. Sloppy posting is perceived as a precursor to sloppy business management, and may well be so.
Importantly, resist being offended by anything that might be said. YouÆre here to raise capital (or at least go through the motions of raising capital) so donÆt sink yourself by getting into a slanging match with someone who offended you û youÆll only come across badly to other potential investors.
Intellectuals (Both "true" and "those that deceive themselves as such" ) These people enjoy discussing offerings and financial/market instruments for the simple sake of the discussion. Their contribution to MD is to explore the topics, the nuances, and points of confusion. They rarely invest in offerings, but are sometimes key participants in evaluating offerings. |
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Athre
Minmatar The Higher Standard
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Posted - 2009.01.13 20:51:00 -
[21]
Kitchie - wonderful :) Thank you.
MDD - It seems a shame you felt it necessary to take a MD101 post and show it up by putting in some MD301 information. Both are relevant. No need to negate a top notch post. I believe you missed this phrase:
Quote: The people who come to the MD seem largely to fit into 3 categories
Please compare this to where you clarify you do not believe MD is ONLY 3 categories.
I believe your listing is valid as well, just that it should have had its own post as it is far more indept than the OP. And as such I have not yet read yours thoroughly, where as the OP's I've read every word. |
MailDeadDrop
Globaltech Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.13 21:35:00 -
[22]
Edited by: MailDeadDrop on 13/01/2009 21:45:20 Edited by: MailDeadDrop on 13/01/2009 21:40:29 Oh god. You're right Athre. I've a character flaw (me, the player, not the character :-) where I sometime feel the need to be all "smarter-than-you". Consider me chastised.
Kitchie, Sorry for putting words in your mouth (w.r.t. the whole "only 3 groups" aspect). As for taking your concept from MD101 to MD301, well, I don't know what to say. I don't think my posts warrant their own thread.
And I kinda ran out of steam there on the "Intellectuals" group. I think they exist. In my mind, that's where Hexxx goes, and probably a handful of others like Kazzac and Shar. But I'm not sure what kind of helpful information to put in their section.
Then there's people that defy convenient categorization. /me glances at Taikun But that goes back to what Athre pointed out in Kitchie's OP ("seem largely to fit into 3 groups" not equivalent to "there's only 3 groups").
MDD |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2009.01.13 21:41:00 -
[23]
Originally by: MailDeadDrop But I'm not sure what kind of helpful information to put in their section.
First, you'd have to find helpful information that came from them. I can tell you, Hexxx is unhelpful. (And since he's not active, he can only read this slander!!!) (Neener neener neener) |
MailDeadDrop
Globaltech Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.13 21:48:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
I can tell you, Hexxx is unhelpful. (And since he's not active, he can only read this slander libel!!!)
My day is complete. I've just corrected Shar.
MDD |
Thoraemond
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Posted - 2009.01.13 21:50:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: MailDeadDrop But I'm not sure what kind of helpful information to put in their section.
First, you'd have to find helpful information that came from them. I can tell you, Hexxx is unhelpful. (And since he's not active, he can only read this slander!!!)
Careful, Hexxx might not have posted lately, but Mehixa has been around more recently!
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MailDeadDrop
Globaltech Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.13 21:56:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Hexxx [15:51] Hexxx: Tell him I've had men killed for less.
Run! Run Shar! RUUUUUUUUUN!
MDD |
SentryRaven
KIA Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.14 01:30:00 -
[27]
Originally by: MailDeadDrop
Originally by: Hexxx [15:51] Hexxx: Tell him I've had men killed for less.
Run! Run Shar! RUUUUUUUUUN!
MDD
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EBANK Forum Manager |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.01.14 14:06:00 -
[28]
Originally by: MailDeadDrop
And I kinda ran out of steam there on the "Intellectuals" group. I think they exist. In my mind, that's where Hexxx goes, and probably a handful of others like Kazzac and Shar. But I'm not sure what kind of helpful information to put in their section.
if anything I'd plant my flag where ever Akita does.
We might be telling the truth, we might not. But either way at the end of the day we've made isk from it. |
Lola Rust
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.01.15 12:06:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Ricdics words
How soon we forget. You're a market expert now? No longer pimping mega-scams? |
Lola Rust
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.01.15 12:09:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
if anything I'd plant my flag where ever Akita does.
I'm actually quite surprised that Akita isn't in this thread (yet) poasting one of her gobs of obvious insight into obvious matters. |
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