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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.01.19 10:43:00 -
[1]
While this guide will include all types of blaster ships, from the T1 Incursus to the Kronos, it's main focus will be on blaster BS, their fitting and their use in combat.
Let's touch on the smaller ships real quick:
The Incursus, Enyo, Taranis and Ishkur: personally I've found that fitting Ions works the best as far as a trade off between DPS and tank. Generally, you can wedge a lot more tank (what little there is) with Ions and still get nearly the DPS of Neutrons with a Magstab fit, and have more cap efficiency to boot. The differences in optimal range and tracking are negligible. Ammo consumption as well.
The Thorax, Deimos, Phobos, Vigilant, Brutix and Astarte: with the Thorax, you can go a couple ways with it- 1600 plate and small Neutron IIs as a heavy tackler/anti-frig platform (this works surprisingly well vs. AFs, which seem to be everybody's favorite thing these days) or you can go all gank with something like 3x magstabs and Ion IIs.
Personally, I don't like the Thorax, as any blaster ship with no cap injector is completely worthless in my book. Hence, I have literally never used one in combat in my entire three plus years of playing.
The Deimos (Diemost). See above. Spend your ISK on something else. Like a Zealot. If you *have* to use one I'd say fit Ion IIs or even Neutron IIs and all gank. You need to kill super quick, as you have no cap to last for more than a minute or so.
Vigilant- why bother other than for style points. Yes it has for mids, no, it's not worth the ISK for a 4th mid.
Phobos- Dual rep tank, 800 plate and Ion IIs. 450ish DPS and with an injector it can tank great while locking down a target from 30km. This ship is really versatile with it's mids. Sometimes (ok, most of the time) I'm using it with three Sensor Booster IIs in the mids to be able to simply catch cruisers at gates. Ridiculous I know, but we live in ridiculous times (QR).
Brutix- Overgrown Thorax with a 4th mid. Personally I wouldn't bother rigging it (ever) or tanking it much. If you fit any sort of tank on it, you have zero room for any DPS. Use it like an overgrown Rax on smallish targets. Don't go after BCs, particularly Tier 2 BCs, or you'll just get shredded.
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.01.19 10:43:00 -
[2]
<reserved>
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.01.19 10:44:00 -
[3]
<reserved>
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.01.19 10:45:00 -
[4]
<reserved>
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.01.19 10:45:00 -
[5]
Edited by: NoNah on 19/01/2009 10:45:55 Sorry to say, I can't really consider a guide that starts out by saying the thorax is bad and you've never flown it to be a good guide. It's one sweet sweet ship. =/
C-c-c-combo breaker? Might want to include how many posts you're going to reserve in the initial post. =) Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 203870
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.01.19 10:45:00 -
[6]
<reserved>
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Jack Jomar
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Posted - 2009.01.19 10:51:00 -
[7]
While I agree that the Thorax is actually a good little ship and worth trying once, I still intend to see how this guide pans out. I may request permission to use and source it somewhere else.
I'll be back. |
TraininVain
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Posted - 2009.01.19 11:17:00 -
[8]
Cheers.
I was wondering about blasters. Look forward to the BS segment. |
Psiri
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Posted - 2009.01.19 11:27:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Psiri on 19/01/2009 11:29:58 Edited by: Psiri on 19/01/2009 11:28:19 Edited by: Psiri on 19/01/2009 11:27:50 I'm sorry but this isn't a good guide at all.
There are more ships than those that you've mentioned that can be fit effectively with blasters, for instance the Harpy and Tristan.
You dismiss the Thorax as being worthless, when it's one of the best cruisers around.
You have no reasoning at all for your ship fits, truth is that there is no definitive answer to what is best. A dual-rep Brutix will be better in some engagements and the notion that all-gank is the only way is utter nonsense. At the loss of a 1/7 of your DPS or so you can more than double your effective HP, what do you think will help you more in a small engagement? All-gank is only really better when you have someone in a Falcon to jam for you.
As for dual-reps or plates you make little mention of whichever's best, once again because it's a matter of preference. A plate fit tends to free up one mid otherwise used for a capacitor booster, allowing for a sensor booster, target painter or extra web (once again, what's best depends on who you fly with) as you don't need an injector. A dual-rep fit will have much less EHP but can keep you alive longer when the incoming DPS is only at around 500. Alternatively when fighting 2-3 opponents you can be able to survive long enough to pop one of them, cutting their dps down by a large ammount and suddenly you may be nearly tank stable allowing you to survive much longer. Having a cap booster makes you less vulnerable to neuts aswell.
You could have mentioned what tackle one should use aswell. MWD or AB? Disruptor or Scram? Personally I feel AB on anything larger than a frigate should be left to doing missions (or killing people IN missions), yet I'm sure that someone here is able to fly ab fitted cruisers or even BS perfectly fine. Scrams are nice but on anything cruiser sized you'll be very slow, making it hard to catch people. Using a scrambler is tempting but I'd leave it at home when solo-roaming in a cruiser or bigger.
Oh an FYI the Brutix, whilst being a tier 1 BC can take on other BC's, HAC's and even mission running BS's with a decent chance of success. I think a Drake is better, but not by a whole lot.
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NeoTheo
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.01.19 11:35:00 -
[10]
Bellum, are you not a fan of the dual Rep setup on the astarte? ive reccently bought one and fitted it this way, but i am still unsure as to if this is the way forward.
:/
- F-OFF - ExE
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.01.19 11:52:00 -
[11]
<reserved>
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.01.19 11:53:00 -
[12]
<reserved>
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.01.19 11:53:00 -
[13]
<reserved>
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Bazman
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2009.01.19 12:15:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Bazman on 19/01/2009 12:18:07 The Brutix is actually one of the better balls to the wall blaster ship. Seriously:
[Brutix, Gank] Reactor Control Unit II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II
10MN MicroWarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Large Shield Extender II
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
47k EHP, 676 DPS from guns (832 DPS inc Hammer II's) 1075m/s with MWD on.
Plus it's cheap.
The Brutix is an awesome gank blastership, dismissing it is a mistake tbh. |
Psiri
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Posted - 2009.01.19 12:56:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Psiri on 19/01/2009 12:58:38
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 19/01/2009 12:21:34 Why I think the Thorax is crap: anything it can do, a plated Vexor or a Rupture can do much *much* better. As such, there is really no point in using it as a blaster ship.
Whilst I agree with that a Vexor is a better ship in general, not everyone has good drone skills (especially new pilots who are more likely to be reading this guide and flying cruisers) nor always hunt in belts. For a gate and station-camps (with a gang naturally) the Thorax is the better choice anyday of the week due to how drones and sentries don't get along. Nor do I see a Vexor or Rupture being 'much' better, not that I'm going to go through the hassle of a 10 page EFT-war with you.
Quote: Using ABs on any any blaster ship is a mistake, and if you're using a blaster ship in deadspace for PVP that is also a huge mistake. In deadspace, use a friggin Ishtar or get a laser ship with some scorch. Something with some reach. A blaster ship needs to be agile and able to sprint to it's target and deal DPS quickly. If it can't it'll die on the way over.
Once again this is your view, for instance the Harpy, Incursus, Tristan, Taranis can be flown just fine with an AB. Naturally at the risk of being tackled outside of scrambler range and hence you have to fly accordingly. This thread isn't labelled "Bellum's views on Blasterships", although pherhaps it should be.
Once again, not everyone has the option of flying an Ishtar and trust me any blasterboat will do just fine in a gang if you're taking down a ratting CNR in a deadspace pocket.
Quote: If you're on the offensive, that is, you're trying to catch someone, then using a two point scram is a joke. Everyone will always get away from you unless they either want to fight or they're amazingly stupid (and there are plenty of those out there, but that's not the point).
On anything larger than a frigate, true for most part. Then again, the guide isn't labelled "Bellum's views on Blasterships for SOLO engagements", a Scrambler can be a great asset in a gang.
Quote: The other factor is cap. If your target erases your cap, you're dead. You can't rep, you can't shoot, you can't move. Dead. Dual reps- you're going to rep a ton of DPS for about sixty seconds, and then you're going to die. If you find yourself in a situation where there is a TON of DPS coming at you, you made a horrible tactical mistake and you're going to die. It's not the ship's fault. There is no way to build in enough tank into a blaster ship to survive 2-3 high DPS ships and still have it do a reasonable amount of DPS itself.
No, your gank fit will die aswell versus three heavy DPS boats before it will be able to pop anything. So what exactly is the point here? Versus reasonable opposition (a solo BC or 2 cruisers and a Cerb for instance) your tank WILL have an impact. Having your EHP nearly doubled means that you get twice as much time to deliver that DPS which a mere reduction of 100 outbound DPS can't ever hope to make up for.
Quote: As such, dual rep builds really aren't viable as they completely out strip your cap booster's ability to provide cap, both for BS and BCs. The Kronos is a special case due to the fact that it needs 50% less cap to run it's guns compared to the Hype/Megathron, but a dual rep setup STILL outstrips a single cap booster, faction or not.
No, it doesn't, if you don't insist on fitting neutrons you'll still have an excess of cap provided from the booster.
Quote: Pure passive setups with plates work well, particularly with remote rep gangs (duh), but you're basically on a timer, and if you don't kill *everybody* and get out before that timer expires, you're dead, every time.
I'm sorry, but how would a gank-fit be any more of an exception to this? In fact, this can be said for any non-sniping, non-speedy DPS boat in EVE. |
Kessiaan
Minmatar Army of One
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Posted - 2009.01.19 12:59:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Get in close, do massive amounts of DPS and kill the other guy before he ruins your cap and rips your armor apart.
Most people think this way. Which is why I've enjoyed some success lately using Neutrons + Null + TD w/ optimal script. By the time they figure I'm not just orbiting at 8kms with my thumb up my ass it's way too late for them to do anything about it. |
Sonreir
Gallente Band of Builders Inc. Libera Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.19 13:08:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 19/01/2009 12:05:47 Now some background as to *why* I think the way I do:
Blaster ship theory 101:
Get in close, do massive amounts of DPS and kill the other guy before he ruins your cap and rips your armor apart.
Blaster ships are not endurance racers, they're sprinters. PVP at this point, for blaster ships anyway, is limited by how much cap per second a medium or large cap booster can provide. All builds must be designed around this limitation.
As such, dual rep builds really aren't viable as they completely out strip your cap booster's ability to provide cap, both for BS and BCs. The Kronos is a special case due to the fact that it needs 50% less cap to run it's guns compared to the Hype/Megathron, but a dual rep setup STILL outstrips a single cap booster, faction or not.
Pure passive setups with plates work well, particularly with remote rep gangs (duh), but you're basically on a timer, and if you don't kill *everybody* and get out before that timer expires, you're dead, every time.
I think you're contridicting yourself here more than just a bit. Blasterboats ARE "sprinters". Treat them as such. No point in dying in a fight with 60% of your cap left. I, personally, advocate dual rep setups on anything BC and above. There will be times to use the buffer approach, but usually that's to fit Neutrons on a gank fit. Tank for blasterboats = dual reps. Gank on blasterboards = passive tank. |
Sonreir
Gallente Band of Builders Inc. Libera Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.19 13:11:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Sonreir on 19/01/2009 13:10:52
Originally by: Bellum Eternus in my opinion it can't stand up to other tier 2 BS like the Raven or Tempest in a one on one fight without the implants, and particularly the rigs.
I'd take my 'thron against a Raven or Tempest any day of the week. I wouldn't mess with a Domi or Abaddon, though. |
Psiri
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Posted - 2009.01.19 13:11:00 -
[19]
Also, the guide is lacking information about the following.
- Different kinds of hybrid ammo with their various uses. - The three types of blasters with a cap usage, DPS and tracking comparison - Alternative uses for blasters, like Keessiaan's setup or a Blokh fit. - What to watch out for, ships and situations that generally give bloats a headache. |
Kurt Gergard
Caldari Husarian Loyalists
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Posted - 2009.01.19 13:55:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Fitting blasters to a Rokh: LOL? Put a well fit Abaddon next to it and compare performance. The Abaddon smokes it in all respects. Hell, for that matter, the Abaddon does the same to the Blasterthron, but I digress. This thread is about how to best use blaster ships, not how much better Amarr ships are than blaster ships.
I disagre blaster rokhs are great I fly them a lot and they do their job nice. And it is one of the few caldari ships that can fit tackle gear without too much sacrifice. A neutron fitted rokh can get 1k dps and with null engage at about 20k with good results(17k optimal). With crystals you can get wicked tank (1,3k). ================================================ "No plan has ever survived the contact with the enemy" von Moltke |
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london
Gallente KDS Navy
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Posted - 2009.01.19 14:29:00 -
[21]
Edited by: london on 19/01/2009 14:35:49 Impressive Bellum, what happened to "Blaster boats are dead"? haha... get tired of that Abbadon? :) Either way, good guide.
Cheers.
Also, I find that Eve favors tank over gank. For the Diemos I prefer a 1600 plate with DC II, 2x EANM II, 2x Mag stabs and Electrons... this setup has over 600 dps and ~50,000+ EHP.
To fit gank setups you seem to have to sacrifice far too much for far too little gain. It's the bigger tank that will pick you apart slowly and win in the end (in every encounter and test that I've performed).
And in fleets, the longer you are alive with a bigger tank, the more DPS your fleet has as a collective whole. I still don't understand people fitting all out gank in fleets. Maybe this would have worked before ships got their HP boost?
Anyways, just my thoughts.
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Deathhawk
mensajero de muerte
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Posted - 2009.01.19 14:39:00 -
[22]
domi with blasters...
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Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
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Posted - 2009.01.19 15:12:00 -
[23]
Very informative, but also very one-sided. I agree with most of your points, but I can't stand behind anyone who says that a particular ship is crap without ever having flown one. Spend a couple of months flying a Thorax in the proper environment, with the proper fit, and looking for the proper targets and then see how crappy you think it is.
One thing that I will add is that I am always confused by the way that people rig their blaster ships. If you are going for a pure gank fit and have three magstabs already fit, falloff rigs will give you far more effective firepower than adding more damage rigs because they give you a larger engagement envelope. People are very unpleasently suprised when I hit them with nearly 300 gun DPS at just shy of web range in my Thorax. Depending on your ship type, mix-and-match falloff and tracking rigs. Never armor rig gank-fits as one of their main benefits is increased mobility due to typically sporting fewer plates. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Prometheus Exenthal
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2009.01.19 15:45:00 -
[24]
Fit a MWD on any blaster AF, and you will die horribly. End of story. - F1|F2|F3|BA |
Letifer Deus
A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.01.19 15:53:00 -
[25]
I used a c-type AB w/ 2x aux thrusters on my ishkur with amazing effectiveness, so, yeah...
And scrams should not be dismissed so lightly. If you're flying in a gang or at least with a tackler, turning off the mwd can be the difference between the target making it back to the gate/station and the target dying.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
No Homo
Gallente THE INTERNET.
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Posted - 2009.01.19 16:09:00 -
[26]
Edited by: No Homo on 19/01/2009 16:09:29 just kidding...
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.01.19 16:15:00 -
[27]
Hyperion losing out to the mega?
Throw a tracking computer or tracking rig on it for christ sakes. Or maybe use faction ammo instead of the void I know you're using.
The frickin thing can have over 200DPS tank with 70 across the board for a nominal price, all the while having over 800dps guns. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Dors Venabily
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Posted - 2009.01.19 16:16:00 -
[28]
Psiri what he said in both posts
This isn't guide its a opinion piece. A OP's perspective of the ship's abilities using them in cookiecutter role. Some general info is good but other then that you should rewrite it, maybe get second opinions from other pilots before, you try again.
I give you points for trying it's always great when ppl do something like this but from the reaction you might see ther are more points of view and perhaps something else to try before writing a guide.
Maybe try to include these different schools and compare advantages and disadvantages for different scenarios.
But as I said kudos for trying and don't let the flamers get to you
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Dors Venabily
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Posted - 2009.01.19 16:21:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Kurt Gergard
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Fitting blasters to a Rokh: LOL? Put a well fit Abaddon next to it and compare performance. The Abaddon smokes it in all respects. Hell, for that matter, the Abaddon does the same to the Blasterthron, but I digress. This thread is about how to best use blaster ships, not how much better Amarr ships are than blaster ships.
I disagre blaster rokhs are great I fly them a lot and they do their job nice. And it is one of the few caldari ships that can fit tackle gear without too much sacrifice. A neutron fitted rokh can get 1k dps and with null engage at about 20k with good results(17k optimal). With crystals you can get wicked tank (1,3k).
Can you post a setup pls or Eve mail it to me. Trying to get something together for the Rokh :D
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Gnomes Rock
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Posted - 2009.01.19 16:22:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Gnomes Rock on 19/01/2009 16:22:00
Next time, don't use the words "Definitive Guide" in the title if one of the first ships you talk about you basically say; "I've never flown this ship but it sucks." |
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