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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Agent Unknown
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.14 17:17:00 -
[631]
I don't see why people think they need a "gaming" computer in order to play EVE now. SM2 is old as well, and ANY machine that can run XP (or is designed for it) should be able to run it fine, although not at the best framerate.
If you don't have a machine that can play it, it's extremely easy to upgrade a desktop or build a cheap one if you don't have one. There's tutorials online for building desktops from scratch, and a little research can really pay off. ----------------------------------- "What can go wrong, will go wrong."
Originally by: CCP Fallout
And yelling is bad. It makes the baby Jesus cry and when the baby Jesus cries I'm forced to lock threads |
Hino Sakura
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.15 04:01:00 -
[632]
Hmm, okay, I actually read this thread (aye, all twenty plus pages of it) and I have a few thoughts and a few comments - the harsh stuff first.
CCP owe you nothing, you have no 'right' to play the game and you undertake to ensure your intended hardware is capable of running their client before purchasing game time; the refunds may be morally implied but they're certainly not legally required and they amount to 'goodwill' on the part of CCP (bravo, by the way!).
Five years [or whatever your figure] playing the game is five years that you chose to play a game, nothing more - not only is it not 'work' nor an 'investment' in reality but you already had what you paid for so, seriously, STFU about refunds for the time you 'invested'.
Anyone whose hardware is incapable of running the new client has obsolete hardware, no matter how recently purchased or manufactured, that's just the facts and whilst we are at it, Netbooks and even 'standard' laptops are not gaming PCs, not intended to be and not marketed as such. If you manage to run a given game, in a way that's acceptable to you, on your hardware, regardless of the specifications and official support (as I often do) that's great; it's not that developer's problem, however, when you cease to be able to do so on a system spec they do not (probably never did) support any longer. In this case CCP at least bothered to poll the playerbase about the issue and actually altered plans and included features based on what they heard; those of you who were saying "leave Classic" just were not listening, as it was never an option for the reasons they outlined (which I shall not rehash).
3D-Analyze was an excellent suggestion but will not work, sadly, as CCP (for good reason) will not allow the 'foreign' DLLs to be 'injected' into the running code of the client. It'd go a long way if they were to introduce support for this and / or SWShader (or whatever its name is now).
Desktop users should buy a cheap replacement card (aye, it really *is* time to upgrade when the upgrade we are talking about involves already obsolete 'new' components) and carry on enjoying their game, about twenty quid lighter (i.e. around a month's subscription, maybe two) or more if they 'go the whole hog' and get at least SM 3 support. Laptop users; I feel your pain, I've been there myself - laptops are a tradeoff between power consumption, performance and portability and at the low end you can add 'price' to that mix. The key word was 'tradeoff' and with regards to performance on a laptop you essentially add to power consumption, weight (thus reducing portability) and price, all at once, for an improvement. Simply put: affordable laptops cannot realistically be used as desktop replacements for gaming and often not for serious business tasks either.
If you are in the UK (or abroad if you really want) for the cost of postage I can send you one of the following (from memory, will check and correct later):
ATI Radeon 95xx AGP(16x?) NVidia GeForce FX 5600 AGP(8x?) NVidia GeForce FX 6600 LE(16x?)
I've even got a couple of (all hardware works, obviously) Athlon XP CPUs and some DDR 400 SDRAM (about 4 GiB in various denominations). Oh, and some SODIMM DDR, too... (laptop RAM) I may check that later, as well.
To the naysayers: CCP are not idiots and your "you'll lose lots of your player numbers" is not what the server figures are telling me, in fact, I'd say that for everyone posting on here, on both sides, there are a hundred players who didn't even notice all this beyond the "Cool! Shiny new stuff!" level.
To CCP: Good call! Thanks for retaining SM 2 and please don't rush to enforce SM 3; it makes a difference to a lot more people (though not actually me, except on a philosophical level - I dislike unnecessarily flashy eye-candy that simply burns my power and heats my room) and probably doesn't improve the assets or performance nearly so much as the jump to 'assume SM 2 cap' does.
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Hino Sakura
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.15 04:07:00 -
[633]
I forgot to say (and would not have space anyway):
Those of you with BSODs, whiteouts and other major glitches - that's far more likely to be a driver issue than a client programming issue, ATi is attrocious for it but NVidia is not immune and the onboard solutions can be bad at times, too. I had to use Omega drivers to resolve that sort of issue with EVE & Mass Effect for sure and probably others but I've usually remembered the problem and swapped drivers by the time I install most of my other games.
You did remember to update Windows and get the latest drivers for your system, didn't you? ;¼)
P.S. This is all on my several years old laptop, which cost ú600 new, so quit the bull**** about upgrades or replacements costing thousands, too.
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Rayne Jameson
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.15 08:52:00 -
[634]
Originally by: Sanny Barret I saw somewone post a list of graphic cards no longer suported ,.. whell add to that list nvidea FX5xxx (5200, 5500 ->128-256 Mb)series and all ATI radeon 9xxx series and ofc lower. The ATI ones say they have shader 2.0 but get mesage that "your computer does not meed minimim system req" and the nvidea ones (like mine FX5200) get about 0.3 - 8 FPS :( ,... this is not playing :( , and the option for upgrading video card does not exist since there are only few models that are better on the AGP slot,.. upgrading means new computer :( I feel i nead to specify i used to dualbox 2 clients on this computer and did soo for over 1 year. what`s the point of subscription for me since undocking is no longer a option :))
the best i could get (without need to buy new PSU) for my now old A64 box with AGP was passive cooled 7600 GS. i play Fallout 3, Kane & Lynch etc no prob. very good card. pwns 5xxx, 6xxx hands down
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Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.03.15 11:23:00 -
[635]
Edited by: Whitehound on 15/03/2009 11:24:40
Originally by: Hino Sakura CCP owe you nothing, you have no 'right' to play the game and you undertake to ensure your intended hardware is capable of running their client before purchasing game time; the refunds may be morally implied but they're certainly not legally required and they amount to 'goodwill' on the part of CCP (bravo, by the way!).
They do owe us something when they take our money. You should know this. Refunding, for already paid subscriptions when an update breaks old hardware requirements, is not a moral act - it is the law and therewith our right.
Quote: To CCP: Good call! Thanks for retaining SM 2 and please don't rush to enforce SM 3; it makes a difference to a lot more people (though not actually me, except on a philosophical level - I dislike unnecessarily flashy eye-candy that simply burns my power and heats my room) and probably doesn't improve the assets or performance nearly so much as the jump to 'assum
That is just selfish when you argue against those who are being forced to upgrade and at the same time ask CCP not to rush to SM3.0. I would be overwhelmed if CCP moves straight to requiring SM4.0, DX10, hardware physics, a quad core, 4GB of RAM and Vista x64. However do I play EVE for a reason and that is because it is an MMO*) - a game for many people. The last thing I want to see on EVE is that some people are leaving.
Because it is an MMO EVE cannot compete with single-player games, and should not do so. New, better graphics is a necessity for single-player games but it is only a luxury for an MMO. Enforcing higher hardware requirements is a step into the wrong direction especially when one considers that they have shown that it can run without it. CCP should move forward but at the same time make it an option.
What happens when MMOs start to compete with single-player games is that you get more and more MMOs made by makers of single-player games. With higher hardware requirements, not to mention the loss of the Linux client, is EVE moving closer towards the new MMOs and becomes less distinguishable for new players. What will happen is that the hardware requirements, which allowed EVE to have many players, can now be turned against them. As a consequence will EVE not only lose a few players, but will find it harder to attract new players.
*) A great space MMO, to be more precise. -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while. |
Hino Sakura
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.15 16:26:00 -
[636]
Whitehound - sorry to be blunt but you're quite simply wrong. CCP has no legal requirement to you whatsoever, outside the terms and conditions under which they sold you access to their software and service, i.e. the EULA. In the EULA you'll find that they are not responsible for making sure your hardware is able to run their software or access their service nor are they liable in any way as a result of updating their software, in fact they explicitly disclaim 'merchantability or suitability for any purpose whatsoever' IIRC, as this is standard practice to avoid spurious litigation.
As for your nonsense at the end.... well, I'll be kind and draft a response:
Selfish? LOL No, but even if it were, so what? Altruism's a myth and the background and gameplay in EVE ought to have highlighted that for you rather nicely. Noone is being forced to upgrade, you seem to confuse 'wish to play a game' with 'need to play a game'; please get a grip on reality, soon. If they went to a 64 bit only client (no point really, so they probably won't do so any time soon) and a requirement for SM 4, I'd just not be able to use my laptop to run the client *big shrug*, CCP never made any promises that I could do and it's not what laptops are even designed to do, as I already exhaustively discussed, along with many others on this thread. People leave EVE all the time for any number of reasons and people join it all the time too; another *big shrug*, it's only a game and will eventually be but a memory. For now it's fun and this client change is a "Good Thing (TM)".
All games, multiplayer, singleplayer, PC or console compete with each other, along with DVDs and other entertainment; if this is news to you, it's probably just best that you leave the business decisions to the CCP team. The rest of your post is 'cloud cuckoo land' stuff and basically already answered by my last sentence.
Sayounara arigatou.
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Aphrodite Skripalle
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Posted - 2009.03.15 17:54:00 -
[637]
A good gameplay doesnt need perfect grafic, it needs good balance and good ideas. I would much more appreciate better missions then shiny grafics.
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Hino Sakura
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.15 18:20:00 -
[638]
Aphrodite - Sure but they are not mutually exclusive, either and that's not what's being done anyway. The 'shiny new graphics' are already in the game, it's the 'Classic' client being retired and the new client being made SM 2 friendly which has taken place; the older client has to go anyway since they have not made Apocrypha assets for it.
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Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.03.15 19:34:00 -
[639]
Originally by: Hino Sakura Whitehound ...
You can have an opinion and you can address me personally, but I will only listen to reason. -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while. |
Hino Sakura
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.15 21:58:00 -
[640]
Neither opinion nor reason involved, sunshine, I simply gave you the facts.
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Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.03.15 22:46:00 -
[641]
Originally by: Hino Sakura Neither opinion nor reason involved, sunshine, I simply gave you the facts.
"The sun shines" is a fact, but it is not the reason why it does so. If you want to make this a discussion then you need to come with a little bit more. -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while. |
Hino Sakura
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.15 22:49:00 -
[642]
Further to my earlier post, here is the hardware, should anyone want it:
PNY GeForce 6600 LE DDR 256MB AGP - AGP 8x, supports SM 3.0
MSI GeForce 5600 TD256 - AGP 8x, supports SM 2.0a
Unknown MFTR ATi Radeon 9550 256 MiB - AGP 4x/8x, supports SM 2.0 (128 bit bus)
That wraps up the graphics cards, here's the memory:
2x Generic (Winbond chips) PC-3200 (DDR 400) 512 MiB DIMMs
3x Generic (PQI & unknown) PC-2100 (DDR 266) 256 MiB DIMMs
1x Hynix PC2-4200 (DDR2 533) 512 MiB SODIMM ('laptop memory')
2x Hynix PC2-5300 (DDR2 667) 256 MiB SODIMM
As for the CPUs:
1x AMD Athlon XP 3000+ ?? I'll check later 1x AMD Athlon XP 2800+ ?? Also check later
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Anemonae Ambrosia
Gallente V e x i l l u m
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Posted - 2009.03.16 02:01:00 -
[643]
My laptop is over a year old and it support DX10, i can't believe there are folks out there who can use SM2. All you people making a big deal like this is a huge step up in hardware requirements, SM2 is old old news its not the big new thing hardware wise EVE is way way behind the single player games. Thats not a problem at all but someone earlier compared this small step up to them trying to compete with the brand new single player games? What a freakin joke, this is a small step and if your PC can't support SM2 then your poor and you need to stop playing EVE and go use your free time to get a better job.
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Anton Marx
Caldari Warhamsters Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.03.16 14:34:00 -
[644]
Originally by: Anemonae Ambrosia My laptop is over a year old and it support DX10, i can't believe there are folks out there who can use SM2. All you people making a big deal like this is a huge step up in hardware requirements, SM2 is old old news its not the big new thing hardware wise EVE is way way behind the single player games. Thats not a problem at all but someone earlier compared this small step up to them trying to compete with the brand new single player games?
My laptop is a little over a year old too and it also supports DX10 and Shader 3.0 DUH. And still I cannot play EVE-ONLINE since FPS drops to under 20 the second I initiate warp. HOW COME CCP?
DESTROYED
Against ALL Authorities ?????! (c) Ivan Wise |
Hino Sakura
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.16 18:30:00 -
[645]
Anton - short answer: laptop graphics components are poor performers due to the compromise inherent in the form factor.
Longer answer: supporting a function is not the same as being able to do it efficiently or quickly, e.g. my laptop can drive a display at 1920 pixels by 1200 pixels, 24 bit colour with 8 bit alpha, 16x anisotropy and 6x anti-aliasing - I could render a nice 3D desktop but I'd be impressed with more than a frame a second running a 3D engine.
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Anton Marx
Caldari Warhamsters Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.03.17 16:35:00 -
[646]
Originally by: Hino Sakura Anton - short answer: laptop graphics components are poor performers due to the compromise inherent in the form factor.
Longer answer: supporting a function is not the same as being able to do it efficiently or quickly, e.g. my laptop can drive a display at 1920 pixels by 1200 pixels, 24 bit colour with 8 bit alpha, 16x anisotropy and 6x anti-aliasing - I could render a nice 3D desktop but I'd be impressed with more than a frame a second running a 3D engine.
So not did only CCP effectively ban all 2-year+ laptops (because of Classic) but also pretty much all 1-year laptop+ users because their graphics are not optimized and only favour PCs?
DESTROYED
Against ALL Authorities ?????! (c) Ivan Wise |
Reomo Lenda
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Posted - 2009.03.17 18:49:00 -
[647]
Weelll.....Lets see. I have a 2003 Dell Inspiron 8500. When I got it 4 years ago, it was considered by many to be the best laptop in the industry. It has an Nvidea GeoForce4 4200 graphics card. I have been playing Eve for maybe months and loving it. Got into a small corp with some great players and was working on getting my first cruiser. Made some good online friends and making more. Tried to update a few days ago and couldn't. Now that I've researched the site and seen the forum entries, it seems my current system won't support "Premium Lite". If I'm wrong, please let me know. If I'm right, this will be one of the biggest disappointments in over 35 years of gaming. I played when there weren't even any PC's around. Now, we have to pay CCP a monthly fee AND buy hundreds of dollars worth of upgrades every 2-4 years?! What was even more disappointing was some of the attitudes I've just encountered on the forum listings. If this game is supposed to be for total technophiles that don't consider a game 'worthy' unless it operates on the highest end graphics with the most expensive and time consuming upgrades. Then I hear some of the people saying that anyone who can't afford the 'best of the best' in hardware shouldn't be spending the $3.00 a day for a good time because they can't afford $100.00's in an upgrade. Just think about that kind of attitude. I'm thinking about whether I should be bothered trying to keep up with this.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.03.17 21:14:00 -
[648]
Originally by: Reomo Lenda ...$3.00 a day for a good time...
I would guess that your $3.00 a day just aren't enough to allow CCP to sustain the development of the client that runs on your antiquated hardware. Surely, your 35 years of gaming experience should have at least hinted at this? Those 35 years should have also allowed you to save up for the entirely predictable eventuality of having to periodically upgrade (or replace in the case of a laptop) your hardware. ...
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Tagar VoLurin
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Posted - 2009.03.17 21:38:00 -
[649]
Razin: Your statements are the kind of thing I'm talking about. If you look at Anton Marx's post you'll see there (and elsewhere)that we are not just talking about "antiquated" year old laptops like mine. There are also non-optimized systems that just got excluded as well. And yes, I did anticipate that there would be changes and upgrades with my 35 years of experience. I also (mistakenly) believed that CCP would not want to lose people whom have been playing for years. People whom are not technologically savvy visionaries like yourself, but only dabble in Nutek for some enjoyment. People whose little $3.00 a day multiply into many thousands for CCP. People whom have a great deal of game experience and large networks of friends in Eve. People who are now gone and may not come back. These people are also often working class, and if they are near my age, aren't used to thinking of $1,500-3,000 invested in technology as being 'antiquated' in 5 years. Or having to replace/upgrade these things at a high price when the world at large is suffering from a near collapse in the economy. Given that viewpoint, I don't wish to judge you because that's unfair since I don't know you. I do think that your statement is kind of heartless though.
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Reomo Lenda
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Posted - 2009.03.17 21:40:00 -
[650]
Last post was actually by me. Forgot to switch character profiles.
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Aurvundill
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.17 22:58:00 -
[651]
How to solve this issue: Download CoLinux and Install it on your Windows XP Machine. Now download and use CoLinux to install Ubuntu/Debian/Gentoo and whatnot. Lists: http://colinux.wikia.com/wiki/Linux_Distributions#Ubuntu
After that download and install the LINUX CLIENT for EVE Online (which supports 1.0 Shader and whatnot on OpenGL).
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Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.03.17 23:47:00 -
[652]
Originally by: Aurvundill How to solve this issue: Download CoLinux and Install it on your Windows XP Machine. Now download and use CoLinux to install Ubuntu/Debian/Gentoo and whatnot. Lists: http://colinux.wikia.com/wiki/Linux_Distributions#Ubuntu
After that download and install the LINUX CLIENT for EVE Online (which supports 1.0 Shader and whatnot on OpenGL).
The Linux client is gone, too. -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while. |
Aurvundill
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.18 00:25:00 -
[653]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Aurvundill How to solve this issue: Download CoLinux and Install it on your Windows XP Machine. Now download and use CoLinux to install Ubuntu/Debian/Gentoo and whatnot. Lists: http://colinux.wikia.com/wiki/Linux_Distributions#Ubuntu
After that download and install the LINUX CLIENT for EVE Online (which supports 1.0 Shader and whatnot on OpenGL).
The Linux client is gone, too.
/emote runs around screaming
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Tadesae
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Posted - 2009.03.18 01:07:00 -
[654]
Even though most of you can figure it out on your own I think its worth mentioning that the optimize settings for for performance tool CCP directs everyone to use doesnt work properly. At least not for me, or probably anyone who is running inferior SM2 supporting hardware. You need to manually set everything to low since optimizing set some options to medium for me. Just add that to CCP's fail list.
I don't begrudge them for upgrading to SM2 but I think its been handled very badly. Many like me were under the false impression that since their vid card said it was SM2 compatible we would still be able to play. I've yet to see anything from them about it which would have been nice. Even if it was post patch I would have appreciated knowing what I could expect instead of hoping the system wasnt running as expected.
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Wilson Yu
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Posted - 2009.03.18 05:47:00 -
[655]
Edited by: Wilson Yu on 18/03/2009 05:49:32 Woot, haven't been playing eve for a week due to cpu issue but by Thursday I should have install a 6th generation GeForce Graphic card. Not only that but i am increasing my RAM to 2 gigs and upgrading my hard drive. All for $250 dollars, 2 years of saving up did i manage to financially support myself in eve. Please do not upgrade eve online to sm4, if you do i will lose contact to my new found friends in eve online that i know personally. (Except their phone numbers)
Maybe this is the reason why you make a forum for your own corporation when you are a CEO. Hope none of my corp mates quit my corporation because i was absent for 2 weeks. Good luck to yall and hope you guys can enjoy eve online.
P.S. When I first start playing EVE I was surprise my 2002 Dell Home Edition Computer with an integrated graphic card can play such a awesome freaken son of a gun game. Man the good time did last and may better times come in journey ahead of us.
Oh and can anyone tell my friend ingame Ra'mah that I will be back in a couple of days. I would be grateful if you do.\
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Reomo Lenda
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Posted - 2009.03.18 17:28:00 -
[656]
I've really loved playing and made some cool friends. Can't play now because my card won't support Apocrypha SM2. I'm angry that CCP wasn't more specific about which cards wouldn't run the upgrade. Until I can afford an upgrade (ie. new laptop!) I can't play. Just cancelled my subscription. That's the only way to let CCP know in a way they'll remember that they shouldn't exclude clients without a good deal of advanced warning which I don't feel we got. Maybe I'll come back when I upgrade or maybe I'll just join a game that has more respect for their clients.
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Tadesae
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Posted - 2009.03.19 21:07:00 -
[657]
The warnings they did give us were very confusing. All the talk of a nonexistant premium lite had me ignoring the warning at log in about not being able to use premium graphics. I still don't know if that was intended but I believed I would be good once they installed the patch.
Anywayz I can still play sortof so... I just feel I was led to believe my system would run better than it does. I've altered my play style to strictly industial/ science/ trade. No more missioning for me. I'm just not happy with the way it was handled, not asking CCP to buy me a new laptop.
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Deathwish Drang
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Posted - 2009.03.22 17:03:00 -
[658]
I have lost everything due to this upgrade, I can't run the game anymore, without me my corp fell apart, I can't even reset my skill training so I have lost weeks of training--I can't afford a new graphics card--How many others lost play-time on inactive accounts? Are we going to be reimbursed for our lost time and Real money wasted?
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Grez
Minmatar Core Contingency
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Posted - 2009.03.22 17:25:00 -
[659]
Edited by: Grez on 22/03/2009 17:25:50
Originally by: Deathwish Drang I have lost everything due to this upgrade, I can't run the game anymore, without me my corp fell apart, I can't even reset my skill training so I have lost weeks of training--I can't afford a new graphics card--How many others lost play-time on inactive accounts? Are we going to be reimbursed for our lost time and Real money wasted?
A) You had enough time to prepare. B) A SM2.0 graphics card costs about ú25.
Computer games, and MMO's especially, are an expensive hobby. If you're not prepared to upgrade every 18 months, then don't bother playing. It is a risk you took, you cannot blame CCP for improving their game for over 95% of their customer base. --- Have a rawr on me. |
Anton Marx
Caldari Warhamsters Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.03.24 04:34:00 -
[660]
Well, 2 weeks after the introduction of Apocrypha I am still puzzled as to why my SM 3.0 - supported card is not letting me play the game normally. I don't know what to do anymore. For the first time in 2 years, I'm considering to cancel my subscription...
My bug report is unfiltered 10 days after submission and the GM "handling" my petition is advising me to "turn my cache settings back to normal". The guy is apparently very very cofused o_O
Is petition/bug report the only way you can get CCP to do something about a problem you have? Can you call these guys?
DESTROYED
Against ALL Authorities ?????! (c) Ivan Wise |
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