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Seb Balaak
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:42:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Seb Balaak on 02/02/2009 14:48:53
 Originally by: Petyr Baelich
Also, the successful market manipulator works in the direction of market forces, not against them.
Wow, that's a really nice one, it's sort of like my post in one sentence, cool  (is it a quote out of an economics or stocktrading book or something? It sounds so familiar to me, can't remember exactly, probably cause it's been so long since I've been in school and read many trading/economy books, I don't read that much anymore). |
Petyr Baelich
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2009.02.02 15:15:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Seb Balaak
Edited by: Seb Balaak on 02/02/2009 14:48:53
Originally by: Petyr Baelich
Also, the successful market manipulator works in the direction of market forces, not against them.
Wow, that's a really nice one, it's sort of like my post in one sentence, cool (is it a quote out of an economics or stocktrading book or something? It sounds so familiar to me, can't remember exactly, probably cause it's been so long since I've been in school and read many trading/economy books, I don't read that much anymore).
Actually I think I plagiarized it from someone in here, most likely Akita T or Shadarle. I have very little formal economics training; I was an English major and didn't take anything past the obligatory macro/micro and statistics. Later in life I've become fascinated with economic theory and capitalism in general, however, and the relatively free market in EVE is one of the main reasons I play the game.
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Dani SP
Rupture Farms Mining
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Posted - 2009.02.02 19:03:00 -
[63]
- profit as you are actually making ISK so fast.
- lots of laughs when ruining all the lemmings 0.01isk game (I usually increase/decrease several thousands).
- also a Robin Hood task... we making justice wherever we go (specially jita 4-4) |
SiJira
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Posted - 2009.02.11 16:19:00 -
[64]
why are you only trading in a few items? it shouldnt hurt you if someone wants to cut their profit to half a percent weekly if you have other items making you twenty percent weekly
Trashed sig, Shark was here |
Xianthar
STK Scientific
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 20:31:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Nif Makria
Ive been following the markets in JITA for several weeks now... and I notice that some items have say a buy/sell difference of 2million profit(minus taxes) per 1 unit.
As usual the 0.01isk battle goes on then someone comes in and makes a 500,000isk price change - so everyone then follows and plays the 0.01isk battle but now with 1.5million profit.
Are they hoping that people wont follow? and move onto other items instead? Why cause the market to crash so that even for the person who crashed it, if they do make a sale then they are getting 0.5million less themselves than if they just played the 0.01isk game.
its called free market capitalism...find some books by ayn rand and read them
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Sarah Dent
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Posted - 2009.02.11 21:01:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Mskpath3
And now consider who you've driven off, that won't come back. The weak traders. So what? The strong traders, running 100+ buy and sell orders are -constantly- ripping through the browser looking for new things to buy.
I don't especialy view buying less than 100 items 'weak', as much as 'diversified'. I have lots of different bids going at any one time, and I generaly don't go above 20 on any one item, to limit the potential of a catastrophic market change giving me huge losses.
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Dani SP
Rupture Farms Mining
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Posted - 2009.02.11 21:28:00 -
[67]
OP is mad at someone else ruining his unfair and absurd high margins.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_competition
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cpt Mark
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Posted - 2009.02.11 22:03:00 -
[68]
Crashing the market is a hobby of mine.
But I much prefer the hobby of building the market.
With the help of some others, (un-co-ordinated help - yes we aren't price fixing here), we increase price of one item by 33% multi-region wide.
Market is starting to crash now, too many people entering, I'm quitting while im ahead.
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Rekatan
Caldari
Radioactive Battle Bunnies
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Posted - 2009.02.11 22:08:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Rekatan on 11/02/2009 22:10:49
The .01 game is a complete waste of time.
There are plenty of people who are willing to toss their items away at 10% of market value, but there are significantly more who are at least intelligent enough to know that's a bad deal. Setting a 50% of regional value will fill the order in a fraction of the time your offer would have, and we don't have to sit there bickering over .01 bids nearly as much.
I tested it on a few comparable items when I first (reluctantly) expanded my trading to jita.
When high volume item is offering a 200 - 400% profit margin, a player will typically outbid in less than 30 minutes. However with only a 50 - 100% margin, the bid stays for as long as a day or two.
The bottom line, there's way too many "get rich quick" traders who never truly get rich quick. They need to wake up and realize that this is a competitive VOLUME business that encourages fairness to the customer... Unless you have a monopoly, you'll always be better off pushing towards the market value.
.01 traders are just one step away from the scam artists wasting away 8 hours a day attempting that 345,000 ISK plex. You may snag a few people but you aren't making a fraction of what you could be.
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Rells o'Rorry
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Posted - 2009.02.11 22:44:00 -
[70]
i love to crash the market on items when someone's ****ed me off :)
setting there order as the lowest in region when the next highest is 8jumps away and costs me 200k p/u? well... i'll just drop it right on down to my costs and screw'em over :)
I did it with falcons and vaga's a couple of times in different regions... sometimes its fun to do to see how many of the lemmings follow suit with the .01isk war then buy'em all out to make a profit.
The markets fun :)
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nether void
Caldari
Shrapnel Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.11 22:47:00 -
[71]
Edited by: nether void on 11/02/2009 22:47:36
Originally by: Rekatan
Unless you have a monopoly, you'll always be better off pushing towards the market value.
OPEC disagrees. If you work together, it's in your best interest to keep prices high on products with inelastic demand. In a market which lacks elastic demand and fundamental regulation, expect 'fair pricing' to only be fair for the seller.
If you are selling and all you care about is making money, why would you trash the margin like that? From the sounds of the posts in here, it's not entirely because 'I don't like to play the 0.01 ISK game'.
Some people are talking about 'fair' pricing, which doesn't exist in a free market. 'Fair' pricing is what people are willing to pay for an item. Before you crashed the price people were willing to pay it, hence the price was already 'fair'.
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Rekatan
Caldari
Radioactive Battle Bunnies
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Posted - 2009.02.12 01:48:00 -
[72]
Originally by: nether void
Edited by: nether void on 11/02/2009 22:47:36
Originally by: Rekatan
Unless you have a monopoly, you'll always be better off pushing towards the market value.
OPEC disagrees. If you work together, it's in your best interest to keep prices high on products with inelastic demand. In a market which lacks elastic demand and fundamental regulation, expect 'fair pricing' to only be fair for the seller.
If you are selling and all you care about is making money, why would you trash the margin like that? From the sounds of the posts in here, it's not entirely because 'I don't like to play the 0.01 ISK game'.
Some people are talking about 'fair' pricing, which doesn't exist in a free market. 'Fair' pricing is what people are willing to pay for an item. Before you crashed the price people were willing to pay it, hence the price was already 'fair'.
lol so you honestly think people don't recognize when you're making a 400% profit on an item? Give me a break. I could care less about "fair" if it were the more profitable thing to do to rip people off, but that's not the case. The fact of the matter is you depend on other people; your customers, to keep you afloat, and if you're not going to give them a reasonable price, many of them will wait for someone who will, or will simply join in and beat you at your own game.
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nether void
Caldari
Shrapnel Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.12 15:58:00 -
[73]
Edited by: nether void on 12/02/2009 15:59:09
Wall of text inc.
Originally by: Rekatan
lol so you honestly think people don't recognize when you're making a 400% profit on an item? Give me a break. I could care less about "fair" if it were the more profitable thing to do to rip people off, but that's not the case. The fact of the matter is you depend on other people; your customers, to keep you afloat
I don't think you get it. If people are buying it, no matter what the 'mark up' is (which is NOT a fixed amount - it's inherently variable if you don't buy it from an NPC), then the price is already acceptable and fair. In a free market, there's no such thing as a rip off. There's something you're willing to buy; and something your not. And if you NEED that item, you will buy it.
So it stands to reason AS A SELLER; NOT A BUYER that you want to keep your prices as high as possible when you're selling ON THE OPEN MARKET (we have no 'customers' when we list on the global market - everything's anon). Now if you actually have a clientele and you're working through contracts in or out of game (you have a relationship with your customer) or demand is elastic, then you have less room to get high markups.
Capitalism is not designed to cater to anyone. It's a very self-centered system where profit is the only desired goal. So if you can get more money, capitalism says do it, especially if you are a public corporation. A public corporation's only goal is to make money for its shareholders. It is not to make a great product at a great price for the people. It's not to make great jobs with great pay for its employees. Those are non-factors. This is not socialism.
Whether or not people realize the high markup on an item is irrelevant if demand is inelastic:
- Substitutes: Are there any? If gas prices go up to 6 bucks a gallon, what are your alternatives? Ride your bike? Sure unless you're like me and you drive 35 miles to work one way. Take public transit? Well I can drive it in 35 minutes one way. Taking public transit from my house to my work would take about 2 hours one way. Buy some booze and throw it in your tank? Not an option. What options are there for products in EVE? Slim or none. If you're skilled in Caldari Black Ops, how many different ship types can you buy? One. The Widow. Widow prices spike and you need a new one. What do you do? Buy one anyway.
- Percentage of Income ZOMG! He jacked the price up on this shuttle 10000%! He's selling it for 1 million! Do I make the 4 jumps in my pod to buy the one for 10k or do I just buy this one in the station for 1mil. I make 20mil an hour missioning, and I mission 3 hours a day, 20 days a month. I have about a bil in my wallet. I buy the insanely marked up shuttle to save time. Same thing applies to anything you buy at a convenience store.
There are three more points to make just from that list in the wiki, but I think you get the point. As a seller you price your goods where you can sell them. It doesn't matter what the percent mark up is.
Quote:
if you're not going to give them a reasonable price, many of them will wait for someone who will, or will simply join in and beat you at your own game
See here is your real motivation (you're a buyer; not a seller). People will not wait. If a large majority do wait, then the price is elastic and it won't stay high like that. Most sellers will start to lower their prices because product is not moving. So when you see high prices and product is moving, it means nobody gives a crap about how much the markup is, only YOU do.
If a BUYER jumps in to lower the price, that is not beating me at my own game. Only a seller can beat me at my own game. A seller will 0.01 ISK me, because they want money too.
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Rekatan
Caldari
Radioactive Battle Bunnies
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Posted - 2009.02.12 23:04:00 -
[74]
Not worth debating.. You aren't getting me..
Of course people buy it. There's always someone out there who will buy one.
That doesn't mean you're getting a reasonable volume however. You don't have a monopoly and there are many of us who don't want to turn the market into a giant carebear handholding session while we dance around with .01 bids. That being the case, you might as well get with the program.
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Dranakolys
Gallente
Theurgy
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Posted - 2009.02.12 23:37:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Dranakolys on 12/02/2009 23:38:26
Originally by: nether void
Edited by: nether void on 11/02/2009 22:47:36
Originally by: Rekatan
Unless you have a monopoly, you'll always be better off pushing towards the market value.
OPEC disagrees. If you work together, it's in your best interest to keep prices high on products with inelastic demand. In a market which lacks elastic demand and fundamental regulation, expect 'fair pricing' to only be fair for the seller.
If you are selling and all you care about is making money, why would you trash the margin like that? From the sounds of the posts in here, it's not entirely because 'I don't like to play the 0.01 ISK game'.
Some people are talking about 'fair' pricing, which doesn't exist in a free market. 'Fair' pricing is what people are willing to pay for an item. Before you crashed the price people were willing to pay it, hence the price was already 'fair'.
Congratulations on referring to a real world cartel to prove your point about internet spaceship economics. Oh wait...
Obviously, if you are in total control of supply, or a significant portion of the supply, its always in your interest to keep prices high. This is simply because you are in a position of power in a market, and there aren't any alternatives to dealing with you. Hence you can force your price, and no one can swoop in and steal all your customers at a lower price. r64 cartels are the only feasible way left to do this, and its probably never going to happen.
Now, how many more times do you need it explained to you why you would want to "trash" a margin? |
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