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5pinDizzy
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Posted - 2009.01.25 21:16:00 -
[1]
May I ask beforehand if we keep the flames down a little bit. I usually enjoy reading them but I think there's a serious point here somewhere. If you think I'm an idiot please evaluate. I've used both these ships a lot, I don't make crap up.
5pindizzy beforehand accepts that he's had no trouble hitting any target in pve with a cruise raven that it should be able to, only he thinks due to the rats nature of a linear flight path, CCP may have underestimated the transversal calculation of a missiles damage against an orbiting foe in pvp.
The following excludes the point that Cruise Ravens will still have limited usefulness for POS sieging.
My character skills with;
Raven Cruise Setup
Arbalest Cruise x 6 w. Caldari Navy Cruise Missiles Large Nos Large Neut
Tank :
125,000 - 130,000 HP Buffer OR 600 - 700 DEF with 70,000 HP Active
DPS : 519 with 5 x medium drones.
Drake
7 x Heavy Missile Launcher ii 1 x Medium Neut or Nos
Tank :
120,000 HP Buffer with ONE MID SLOT STILL FREE.
DPS : 510 with 5 x light drones
Drake : Can kill frigates and bigger under the right circumstances.
Cruise Raven : Can kill battlecruisers and bigger, same as torpedoes. Will not even scratch the paint on an orbiting cruiser without the need for an AB or a MWD or speed mods.
Difference : I have Heavy Missile Spec 4, but only cruise missiles level 4.
Is it really worth trying to train for tech 2 cruise precision missiles or are they made of fail too?
Torpedoes look far more worth it in terms of going to the trouble of painting and webbing someone.
Maybe I'm just missing the point in that CCP only cares for nullsec chess wars in most of its updates and balancing and expects a such ships to be hitting enemies from 70+ km away.
I tell you now I've seen no other battle ship of any other race that won't barbecue a happy go lucky cruiser.
My friends have lost hictors to gallente/minmatar and amarr battleships, they've also sniped enough inty's outside stations with such ships.
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Xephys
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2009.01.25 21:39:00 -
[2]
Cruise fit raven is obselete for PvP full stop. The only time I've seen those used well was BE and that was w/ 2bil nanoravens.
Just use torps for really nice DPS, as well as an active tank (passive/shield buffer doesn't work as well on battleships).
Also, yes, the Drake is great.
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5pinDizzy
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Posted - 2009.01.25 21:41:00 -
[3]
Thx Xephys
(Makes a note on this list to boycott Cruise missiles V and go for Torpedoes V, that's a whole lotta days saved on skill training there!)
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis Mean Coalition
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Posted - 2009.01.25 21:44:00 -
[4]
Torps can't exactly hit everybody's favorite Caldari ship though.
Yes, Cruise missiles are mainly outclassed in PvP by Torps and other weapon systems, but I wouldn't call them completely useless. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Towelieban
Minmatar Priory Of The Lemon
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Posted - 2009.01.25 22:06:00 -
[5]
maybe you should post this in ships and modules section where it belongs
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iudex
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.01.25 22:21:00 -
[6]
I have to agree with OP, the way cruise missiles were changed they became even worse than they already were. Before you at least could kill smaller stuff, which was a balanced trade-off for the low dps. Now the drake out-performs the cruise raven in most cases, the little higher dps isn't worth the much higher precision (explosion velocity and radius) of heavy missiles, and precision cruises are ridiculous.
The last advantage one might think of is the range. But it only looks good on paper and EFT. If you fire on a ship that is 170km away for example, it will take 20 seconds for the missiles to arrive. In that time turret ships already killed the target or it warped away, or if not you can do some maths and calculate how much damage the turret ships already inflicted and take this into account for the dps comparison. The "high dps on extreme ranges" advantage is only true when shooting at capital ships or something alike, not for 99% of combat.
I still use the cruise raven in pvp sometimes, because i invested months of training-time in it (all relevant skills, including CM spec. at 5), but there are only very few situations where it does better than a drake.
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OffBeaT
Caldari KaMiKaZes
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Posted - 2009.01.25 22:52:00 -
[7]
Edited by: OffBeaT on 25/01/2009 22:52:50 i grew up in a raven 99% of the time i only fly caldari ships.. i know for the most part how to use them but i lost my trust in the raven as a fighting ship..
i am very ****ed at ccp for ****en up the raven as they did. the skills it takes to boss out that ship way out matches a lot of other bs to master well..
i think they did it on purpose to stop people from flying them. low slot target painters very hard to fit and a cap booster with real short range on the missiles + low damage unless you have supper mods/skills.. i am so spooked to fly one around frigs/indys/cruisers its sad..
man. i just parked the thing.. solo its death in a boat.. its the time of the rokh i guess.
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iudex
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.01.25 23:03:00 -
[8]
Originally by: 5pinDizzy Is it really worth trying to train for tech 2 cruise precision missiles or are they made of fail too?
To answer this question simply compare the wrath precision cruise missile with scourge fury heavy missiles:
The fury heavy missile has around the same range (few km more for the precision cruise), but deals more damage (~17 % more dps from missiles) and has a considerably higher precision (~26% better explosion velocity and ~26% better explosion radius). It wins in every situation (even against large targets) and wins very clearly against smaller targets.
Together with the lower costs, faster locking times, better manoeuvrability of the drake etc. this makes precision cruises a joke.
_________________________________________ Faction Standings: Serpentis +7.81 // Angel Cartel +7.60 // Minmatar Republic -8.68 // Gallente Federation -9.88
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Poast Warrior
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.01.25 23:16:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Xephys
Just use torps for really nice DPS, as well as an active tank (passive/shield buffer doesn't work as well on battleships).
You're playing a diff game then. Active tank + torps on a Raven is a fail fit.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.01.25 23:23:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Xephys Cruise fit raven is obselete for PvP full stop. The only time I've seen those used well was BE and that was w/ 2bil nanoravens.
Just use torps for really nice DPS, as well as an active tank (passive/shield buffer doesn't work as well on battleships).
Also, yes, the Drake is great.
Well, the only real use I've seen for cruise ravens is taking advantage of their truly ludicrous range. As you say, Burn Eden used to do that quite impressively. I daresay with a little thought, it would be possible to come up with a viable 'raven sniper style' combat group - 400dps at 250km isn't sloppy, after all.
But even then, it'd be ... shall we say, rather 'niche'. -- 249km locking? |
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Poast Warrior
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.01.25 23:23:00 -
[11]
And to stay on topic, yes the cruise platform is dead for anything other than PVE.
Cruise Raven had a role against Falcons, now it has no role at all. Thanks CCP.
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Kayosoni
Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five
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Posted - 2009.01.25 23:27:00 -
[12]
raven is **** now. Use cerb. |
KhaniKirai
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Posted - 2009.01.25 23:33:00 -
[13]
cruise raven damage on a logistic ship as example:
t2 precision will do around 45 a 50 damage per hit, that was with implants, rigor/flare rigs and 2x t2 target painters, with max skills as well.
Its really pathetic this whole missile nerf
So yeah, you can better fly a platform that has bonus on smaller missile types.
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Ocih
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.01.26 01:31:00 -
[14]
HAM's aren't any better. I trained Torps back in '05 when I was noob and naive. The plan being to put a launcher or two on my apoc to mess up the short range stuff.
Torps got nerfed six ways to Sunday and I gave up on all launcher skills. The new batch of '06 and on players never knew about the ageless hate for launchers. Sucks to be them. |
Armoured C
Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.01.26 01:34:00 -
[15]
i found out your problem , you using caldari ships for PVP |
Rawr Cristina
Caldari Naqam Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.01.26 01:40:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Kayosoni raven is **** now. Use cerb.
This!
Rawr ♥ Cerbs
- Infectious - |
5pinDizzy
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Posted - 2009.01.26 01:50:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Armoured C i found out your problem , you using caldari ships for PVP
<3
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Doctor Mahbuse
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Posted - 2009.01.26 01:58:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Doctor Mahbuse on 26/01/2009 01:59:22 Biased thread. Don't compare low skilled named weapons to high skilled t2 weapons. Raven with t2 gear, faction ammo and t2 medium drones does over 650 dps. Also 2 heavy neuts are much better than 1 medium. Or put 2 guns for additional dps in the 2 free high-slots. And don't forget range, 250km is way better than 80km, don't you think ?
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Ocih
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.01.26 02:08:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Doctor Mahbuse Edited by: Doctor Mahbuse on 26/01/2009 01:59:22 Biased thread. Don't compare low skilled named weapons to high skilled t2 weapons. Raven with t2 gear, faction ammo and t2 medium drones does over 650 dps. Also 2 heavy neuts are much better than 1 medium. Or put 2 guns for additional dps in the 2 free high-slots. And don't forget range, 250km is way better than 80km, don't you think ?
I'd actually agree with that but as an Apoc pilot with 250 lock and 225 optimal, I can say it's useless in the hot drop combat that dominates EvE. Warp to 250km? You either spend most of your time bookmarking systems that you must then camp or you save it for POS ops. |
Doctor Mahbuse
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Posted - 2009.01.26 02:31:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Ocih
I'd actually agree with that but as an Apoc pilot with 250 lock and 225 optimal, I can say it's useless in the hot drop combat that dominates EvE. Warp to 250km? You either spend most of your time bookmarking systems that you must then camp or you save it for POS ops.
I know what you mean, the "warp to" limit of 100km is quite annoying for longrange setups. But you don't need to have bookmarks. Talk to someone in your fleet that warps in at 100. Once he's there, the ultra-longrage ships can warp to him at 100 and will land at 200 to the target. Not a perfect solution, since you arrive some seconds later, but in a well-practised team it works quite nice, you can also send a cloaker at 100km few seconds ahead, if you insist on hotdropping the whole fleet at exactly the same time.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.01.26 09:28:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 26/01/2009 09:29:19
Originally by: Ocih
Originally by: Doctor Mahbuse Edited by: Doctor Mahbuse on 26/01/2009 01:59:22 Biased thread. Don't compare low skilled named weapons to high skilled t2 weapons. Raven with t2 gear, faction ammo and t2 medium drones does over 650 dps. Also 2 heavy neuts are much better than 1 medium. Or put 2 guns for additional dps in the 2 free high-slots. And don't forget range, 250km is way better than 80km, don't you think ?
I'd actually agree with that but as an Apoc pilot with 250 lock and 225 optimal, I can say it's useless in the hot drop combat that dominates EvE. Warp to 250km? You either spend most of your time bookmarking systems that you must then camp or you save it for POS ops.
It's called teamwork, you should try it sometimes. When you have to warp to a gate/station have support warp first, have an intie warp at 100 and let it take position, then warp to him.
The fast&dirty way is easier but more dangerous; intie warps at 100, you warp to the intie at 50/100, intie then moves 50km away from the gate and warps onto it so he can then tackle. |
AkRoYeR
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.01.26 10:51:00 -
[22]
So having your target web'd and scram'd still makes cruise missiles obselete? |
Ocih
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.01.26 10:53:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Ocih on 26/01/2009 10:57:40
Originally by: Tzar'rim Edited by: Tzar''rim on 26/01/2009 09:29:19
Originally by: Ocih
Originally by: Doctor Mahbuse Edited by: Doctor Mahbuse on 26/01/2009 01:59:22 Biased thread. Don't compare low skilled named weapons to high skilled t2 weapons. Raven with t2 gear, faction ammo and t2 medium drones does over 650 dps. Also 2 heavy neuts are much better than 1 medium. Or put 2 guns for additional dps in the 2 free high-slots. And don't forget range, 250km is way better than 80km, don't you think ?
I'd actually agree with that but as an Apoc pilot with 250 lock and 225 optimal, I can say it's useless in the hot drop combat that dominates EvE. Warp to 250km? You either spend most of your time bookmarking systems that you must then camp or you save it for POS ops.
It's called teamwork, you should try it sometimes. When you have to warp to a gate/station have support warp first, have an intie warp at 100 and let it take position, then warp to him.
The fast&dirty way is easier but more dangerous; intie warps at 100, you warp to the intie at 50/100, intie then moves 50km away from the gate and warps onto it so he can then tackle.
Joy, another A-Team poster who is never wrong and everyone else always is.
Did you read the part about hot dropping? So lets wait for a group so we can do the team work thing and meanwhile the targets are gone. How long do hot drop battles you fight last, anyway? Warping an Apoc and an inty in uniformity, all over any system you might want to. Would you like to be the Apocs go to boy? Sounds like a real fun night of PvPing doesn't it? Head out of ass, please? |
Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.01.26 11:17:00 -
[24]
So, you whine about a) needing to prepare by BMing or using coverts and/or b) using an on the spot made 'bm' called an intie. If you don't like long range tactics don't fly long range ships?
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Ocih
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.01.26 11:37:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Tzar'rim So, you whine about a) needing to prepare by BMing or using coverts and/or b) using an on the spot made 'bm' called an intie. If you don't like long range tactics don't fly long range ships?
Umm.. I don't.
I keep them in systems I have bookmarked? I use smaller ships for gates and hot dropping?
But you never whine, just everyone else, right? When you contribute, it's all about **** boxing everyone elses threads and griefing? Or do you add anything above? Thanks for the suggestions but they had been made before you and without the looking down thier nose attitude.
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KhaniKirai
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Posted - 2009.01.26 11:38:00 -
[26]
Edited by: KhaniKirai on 26/01/2009 11:41:19 Edited by: KhaniKirai on 26/01/2009 11:40:00
Originally by: Doctor Mahbuse Edited by: Doctor Mahbuse on 26/01/2009 01:59:22 Biased thread. Don't compare low skilled named weapons to high skilled t2 weapons. Raven with t2 gear, faction ammo and t2 medium drones does over 650 dps. Also 2 heavy neuts are much better than 1 medium. Or put 2 guns for additional dps in the 2 free high-slots. And don't forget range, 250km is way better than 80km, don't you think ?
Yeah, as long as you shoot on BS sized targets, that do not have AB or MWD on. Smaller and/or faster target and your dps stinks and you dont even come close to 1/4 of what you are posting, this is with t2 and max skills and rigors/flares and implants and firing on target thats painted twice with t2 targetpainters, so its sig radius is multiplied by around 1.8 times. It doesnt matter really. Its just quite pathetic, when light missiles can do around 60 a 80 damage on even smaller targets.
I am adapting: training other races BS now for pvp and the maximum skilled cruise raven with implants and rigs only using for pve.
Situation: totally unbalanced for pvp |
Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.01.26 11:39:00 -
[27]
I have not found a use for Cruise Ravens in PvP, other than the occasionl sniper setup to scare of Falcons. And after QR Cruises did not exactly become any better. Torps however is nice, tho you really want a gang with you that can paint and web for maximum effect. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.01.26 11:53:00 -
[28]
Cruise Raven was pretty niche before QR, so it's hardly a new situation. However, Cruise range is 250 km, HM range is 75-ish, and a Cruise Raven can still hit 250 km with an armour tank and plenty of ECCM.
In gang, you fit for specific roles, and the Cruise Raven works well enough there. Sure, a sniper Rokh/Apoc would offer instant damage, but turret snipers tend not to have much room for tank or ECCM, and have poor tracking at close ranges. So you use the right tool for the situation in hand.
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TZeer
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2009.01.26 12:27:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Gypsio III Cruise Raven was pretty niche before QR, so it's hardly a new situation. However, Cruise range is 250 km, HM range is 75-ish, and a Cruise Raven can still hit 250 km with an armour tank and plenty of ECCM.
In gang, you fit for specific roles, and the Cruise Raven works well enough there. Sure, a sniper Rokh/Apoc would offer instant damage, but turret snipers tend not to have much room for tank or ECCM, and have poor tracking at close ranges. So you use the right tool for the situation in hand.
Does not matter what range is if your damage is crap.
And with turret ships not have good tracking at close range. Well if you go close range, you wouldnt use cruise would you? Like you said, right tool for the right situation...
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2009.01.26 14:25:00 -
[30]
Originally by: TZeer
Originally by: Gypsio III Cruise Raven was pretty niche before QR, so it's hardly a new situation. However, Cruise range is 250 km, HM range is 75-ish, and a Cruise Raven can still hit 250 km with an armour tank and plenty of ECCM.
In gang, you fit for specific roles, and the Cruise Raven works well enough there. Sure, a sniper Rokh/Apoc would offer instant damage, but turret snipers tend not to have much room for tank or ECCM, and have poor tracking at close ranges. So you use the right tool for the situation in hand.
Does not matter what range is if your damage is crap.
And with turret ships not have good tracking at close range. Well if you go close range, you wouldnt use cruise would you? Like you said, right tool for the right situation...
He meant, I believe, that if you bring a turret ship for the purposes of picking off things at range (falcons, cerbs, other snipers, whatever), it has problems hitting things up close due to the weaker tracking of long-range turrets. Ravens don't have this problem. |
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