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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.01.25 23:20:00 -
[1]
I am disappointed on a few things so far.
1. Missing alliances: BoB, CVA, Ethereal Dawn, MorsusMihi, TCF, Executive Outcomes(and other bob pets), RED, Razor, and many others.
2. Faction, Deadspace, and Officer modules. Most of pvp is super cheap setups. The tournament is special. The lack of these modules is a little disappointing. Surely the devs are already checking their fits. Simply setup a point value for the use of officer modules. Marauder is 19 points. Officer fit Marauder is 25 points. Or however you might balance it. It creates even more dynamic and truly more risk, fun, and possible reward.
3. The lack of pirate battleships. We have had quite a few phantasm for example. No nightmares or bhaalgorn.
Anyone else have any similar disappointments? ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Kayosoni
Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five
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Posted - 2009.01.25 23:25:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Jason Edwards I am disappointed on a few things so far.
1. Missing alliances: BoB, CVA, Ethereal Dawn, MorsusMihi, TCF, Executive Outcomes(and other bob pets), RED, Razor, and many others.
2. Faction, Deadspace, and Officer modules. Most of pvp is super cheap setups. The tournament is special. The lack of these modules is a little disappointing. Surely the devs are already checking their fits. Simply setup a point value for the use of officer modules. Marauder is 19 points. Officer fit Marauder is 25 points. Or however you might balance it. It creates even more dynamic and truly more risk, fun, and possible reward.
3. The lack of pirate battleships. We have had quite a few phantasm for example. No nightmares or bhaalgorn.
Anyone else have any similar disappointments?
lol you're so clueless....
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.01.25 23:31:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Kayosoni
lol you're so clueless....
do elaborate. |
Falcon Troy
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.01.25 23:32:00 -
[4]
Seriously...did you even think before you posted?
This action levels the playing field so it comes down to skill instead of who has the deeper wallet. It eliminates bias towards power-bloc Alliances. |
Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.01.25 23:36:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Falcon Troy Seriously...did you even think before you posted?
This action levels the playing field so it comes down to skill instead of who has the deeper wallet. It eliminates bias towards power-bloc Alliances.
i take it you disagree about faction,deadspace, and officer modules.
Considering carebears and others have the ability to earn isk to fund such modules. All people who have 3mil sp or more also have the same ability.
I cant see for one second how the price of the modules would be a factor. |
Triest
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.01.25 23:38:00 -
[6]
Whether it's to your liking or not, the present rule implementation of t1/t2 modules (and T1 rigs) is in place to prevent people from effectively 'buying' the tournament, as was somewhat the case in the past; a Vargur with a T2 tank, for instance, can get upwards of a 1500 DPS tank relatively easily (especially if supplemented with cap transfers). If replaced with deadspace/officer modules, that becomes in excess of 10k DPS, and upwards from there is not implausible. That's not damage that's achievable within the ship limits, so the turtling problem that was already existent last year would be much, much worse. Not to mention the obvious barrier to entry that teams fielding 10+ billion isk in modules would provide. |
Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.01.25 23:44:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Triest Whether it's to your liking or not, the present rule implementation of t1/t2 modules (and T1 rigs) is in place to prevent people from effectively 'buying' the tournament, as was somewhat the case in the past; a Vargur with a T2 tank, for instance, can get upwards of a 1500 DPS tank relatively easily (especially if supplemented with cap transfers). If replaced with deadspace/officer modules, that becomes in excess of 10k DPS, and upwards from there is not implausible. That's not damage that's achievable within the ship limits, so the turtling problem that was already existent last year would be much, much worse. Not to mention the obvious barrier to entry that teams fielding 10+ billion isk in modules would provide.
Too which has a significant rock paper scissors factors. The adjust of the increased number of points required would mean a disadvantage factor. |
Triest
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.01.25 23:52:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Too which has a significant rock paper scissors factors. The adjust of the increased number of points required would mean a disadvantage factor.
So you'd suggest that CCP assign every module on every ship a point adjustment based on its meta factor? Or that 'officer-Tempest' is applied to a Tempest with any number of officer modules? Either way, it's cumbersome and illogical. And doesn't take into account pirate implants, either.
In any event, the point I'm trying to make is that officer/deadspace/implants have a disproportionate effect on ship performance, particularly in the area of tanking. The T2 Vargur tanks a small fraction of the damage one without module limitations can achieve, far in excess of a 20% point difference. Obviously, active shield tanking is the most glaring example, but armor benefits as well. In the end I don't (and obviously, CCP don't) see that the benefits to including all modules (which, apparently, are largely bling-related) exceed the logistical, fairness, and fun-related benefits. |
Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.01.26 00:06:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Triest
So you'd suggest that CCP assign every module on every ship a point adjustment based on its meta factor? Or that 'officer-Tempest' is applied to a Tempest with any number of officer modules? Either way, it's cumbersome and illogical. And doesn't take into account pirate implants, either.
Could even use the meta level itself. Want to use estamel's. That's 14 points extra. Pirates implants shouldnt be allowed. In my opinion.
Quote: In any event, the point I'm trying to make is that officer/deadspace/implants have a disproportionate effect on ship performance, particularly in the area of tanking
Indeed.
Quote: The T2 Vargur tanks a small fraction of the damage one without module limitations can achieve, far in excess of a 20% point difference. Obviously, active shield tanking is the most glaring example, but armor benefits as well. In the end I don't (and obviously, CCP don't) see that the benefits to including all modules (which, apparently, are largely bling-related) exceed the logistical, fairness, and fun-related benefits.
maybe it's just that I really like the freedom option.
Obviously there's a point limit such that a team doesnt show up with 10 nyx spider tanking.
There would be a balance such that perhaps 2 abaddons could show up with c-type deadspace eanm or something.
I think the matches would be just that much more interesting. |
NoNah
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Posted - 2009.01.26 00:24:00 -
[10]
Two simple reasons.
1. Economical reasons, ISK is a major factor in ordinary everyday pvp, as are numbers, timing, metagaming, intel, tactical disengagements etc etc. This shouldn't be the case in the tournament, and to let casual pvpers have a shot based on tactics and skill rather than how many hours you can grind or how many GTC's you can afford to sell - disallowing everything past t2 makes it a tad more equal.
2. Fun. T2 is as good as guns, drones and launchers get in a way. (No, it's not always true and estamel launchers will have better RoF than a t2 while the t2 ammo won't add much but...) As for defence that is not so. An estamel launcher is always better than a t2 and will as noted above lead to increadible tanks and poor dps. |
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Seldarine
Minmatar Arcane Technologies The Five
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Posted - 2009.01.26 00:50:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Jason Edwards I am disappointed on a few things so far.
1. Missing alliances: BoB, CVA, Ethereal Dawn, MorsusMihi, TCF, Executive Outcomes(and other bob pets), RED, Razor, and many others.
2. Faction, Deadspace, and Officer modules. Most of pvp is super cheap setups. The tournament is special. The lack of these modules is a little disappointing. Surely the devs are already checking their fits. Simply setup a point value for the use of officer modules. Marauder is 19 points. Officer fit Marauder is 25 points. Or however you might balance it. It creates even more dynamic and truly more risk, fun, and possible reward.
3. The lack of pirate battleships. We have had quite a few phantasm for example. No nightmares or bhaalgorn.
Anyone else have any similar disappointments?
Your either terrible at thinking, terrible at posting, or a combination of the two. |
Louis DelaBlanche
Adam Adamants Emporium Zzz
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Posted - 2009.01.26 01:30:00 -
[12]
Since all I see of the fight are the ships shooting eachother, I dont really care what theyre fitted with. But if limiting it to T1/T2 is seen as leveling the playing field (which it does) then im all for that. As for missing the major alliances; yeah theres perhaps too few of em but if that makes room for others who would otherwise not get the chance to experience the tournament; theres always next time for those left out.
_________________ Space is reserved _________________ |
Vall Kor
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.01.26 23:02:00 -
[13]
I wouldn't/couldn't use the best gear in PVP. I think it's awesome watching these guys go at it with gear/ships I can afford to fly with. Gives, me something to look forward to as my SP grows.
*Hoping for a frig tourny soon*
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Warrio
Southern Cross Incorporated
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Posted - 2009.01.26 23:41:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Jason Edwards Considering carebears and others have the ability to earn isk to fund such modules. All people who have 3mil sp or more also have the same ability.
Dumbest statement ever.
Yeah, sure, we could all probably kill a few rats or mine a few rocks but if I ever found myself in a raven jumping from belt to belt I'd probably kill myself IRL. The tourney is for everyone, including those who don't want a mission running alt or a macro mining network to support their PvP.
sXe |
Kashimir
Otoko no Baito
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Posted - 2009.01.27 01:03:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Kashimir on 27/01/2009 01:07:41
Originally by: Warrio
Yeah, sure, we could all probably kill a few rats or mine a few rocks but if I ever found myself in a raven jumping from belt to belt I'd probably kill myself IRL.
Seconded... Also it is not about the Isk really. This alliance tournament is supposed to somewhat represent normal PvP situation even tho' there are naturally obvious differences. Nowadays you see quite alot of the cheapest Faction Modules used even in low sec gank PvP, so I wouldn't mind seeing them in the tournament but they have to draw a line somewhere and the ban of all Faction, Deadspace, and Officer modules is a fair choice. This tournament due to the current ruleset is overall much more expencive to the teams than the earlier ones. The ability to fit rigs and simply the fact that you can field more bigger ships. Also we are seeing alot of faction cruisers, faction battleships and Marauders fielded. Which is fun to see. But, I would rather see a Carrier in a tournament than 5bils invested into every single t1 cruiser.(Don't try to read too much into that statement)
I think this carebear is just trying to get his faction modules sold by better prices ;)
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.01.27 07:20:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Kashimir
I think this carebear is just trying to get his faction modules sold by better prices ;)
well not necessarily my modules; but my fellow carebears also.
On an interesting note.
Tempest fleet issue is up about 30mil since tourny. Megathron navy issue is up about 15mil. Caracal navy issue is up about 10mil Vexor navy issue is unchanged. Phantasm on the otherhand tends to be quite down infact. About 10mil down. Might be my #s. |
Dwimm
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Posted - 2009.01.27 14:14:00 -
[17]
What are you still talking about? Trist from PandemicL (sorry if i misspeled your name) made it clear. If you can tank up to 10k dps in a single officer fitted BS (i dont know if its true, never tried, never will) And you field just for example 2 of them, even without remote repp. ther is simply nothing within 100points limit that can break this tank. So you would end up with two teams, sitting in arena for 15min and flaming on local exploring endless variations on topic 'Why MY c**k is bigger and better than yours'. Empire mining rats should be banned from posting enything in tourney discussion. |
OrDeR
Caldari THE MuPPeT FaCTOrY PuPPet MasTers
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Posted - 2009.01.27 19:55:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Seldarine
Originally by: Jason Edwards I am disappointed on a few things so far.
1. Missing alliances: BoB, CVA, Ethereal Dawn, MorsusMihi, TCF, Executive Outcomes(and other bob pets), RED, Razor, and many others.
2. Faction, Deadspace, and Officer modules. Most of pvp is super cheap setups. The tournament is special. The lack of these modules is a little disappointing. Surely the devs are already checking their fits. Simply setup a point value for the use of officer modules. Marauder is 19 points. Officer fit Marauder is 25 points. Or however you might balance it. It creates even more dynamic and truly more risk, fun, and possible reward.
3. The lack of pirate battleships. We have had quite a few phantasm for example. No nightmares or bhaalgorn.
Anyone else have any similar disappointments?
Your either terrible at thinking, terrible at posting, or a combination of the two.
both i am sure. |
Jack Jombardo
Amarr Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2009.01.27 22:49:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Jack Jombardo on 27/01/2009 22:51:45
to 1) some of them allready statted, that the login timing for the turnament was not ideal (or they simply forgot it) And it is cool for smaller allinces to encounter some equal size fleets and do not get blobed like in open space :).
to 2) faction and other moduls would just bring us to the point where more ISK == win. Espezialy Offizer mods can give a huge advantage over normal T2 fittings!
to 3) well, we saw LOTs of Faction-cruisers (Fleet Stabbers, Navy Omens, Navy Vexors, Navy Caracels). Far more then I expected! Lack of pirta ships might be limeted do to pur avilability. There aren't enough on the market ;).
And there had been far less HACs as I expected (which is nice as they are somewhat FOTM anyway). |
Kitano
THE MuPPeT FaCTOrY PuPPet MasTers
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Posted - 2009.01.28 03:52:00 -
[20]
Set sail for fail |
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Shae Tiann
Hellcats The Bastards.
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Posted - 2009.01.28 11:45:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Jason Edwards Pirates implants shouldnt be allowed. In my opinion.
So you want some bling but not all bling? Stop splitting hairs :p |
Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.01.28 20:28:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Shae Tiann
Originally by: Jason Edwards Pirates implants shouldnt be allowed. In my opinion.
So you want some bling but not all bling? Stop splitting hairs :p
podding isnt allowed... |
Lexa Hellfury
Incura
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Posted - 2009.01.29 10:29:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Originally by: Shae Tiann
Originally by: Jason Edwards Pirates implants shouldnt be allowed. In my opinion.
So you want some bling but not all bling? Stop splitting hairs :p
podding isnt allowed...
I fail to see how that's even remotely relevant.
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Norwood Franskly
Minmatar Fleet of the Damned B.L.A.C.K.
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Posted - 2009.01.31 11:10:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Norwood Franskly on 31/01/2009 11:11:35 Yes I like the tournament how it is, why do you think BOB won so much in the past, they have unlimited isk (well close to unlimited what 4 or 5 years sitting on god knows how many high end moons) and could easily afford high grade pirate implants and full officer fittings for all their pilots, look how well they did after the rules were changed (not so good), made the tournament a lot closer, nowadays it's a matter of coming up with a good setup and having the leadership plus individual pilot skill to make it work, you can no longer "buy" the tournament.
That said I do love to see expensive ships kicking ass, there's a PL guy in Curse and Catch at the moment flying around basically solo in an officer fit Vargur, that things kicks so much ass it's not funny. |
Reiisha
Splint Eye Probabilities Inc. Dawn of Transcendence
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Posted - 2009.01.31 12:45:00 -
[25]
If faction and officer stuff would be allowed, everyone would be flying golems.
boooooooooooring. |
Alurexar
Celestial Ascension Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2009.01.31 13:10:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Alurexar on 31/01/2009 13:10:42 let me open the great secret for you. the big boys participate, just temporary under other alliance's names. and if tech2 is so super cheap, can you please contact me couple of Vagabonds? _______________________________________________________
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Tiirae
The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2009.01.31 17:42:00 -
[27]
Including high meta items is perfectly feasible, you just have to penalise them appropriately. In the cases of *very* overpowered modules you would penalise them extremely heavily, but for stuff like c-type eanms etc the penalty would be much less.
It's all about more flexibility and freedom. it would be good.
Unfortunately, it would be a huge task for CCP to go through every possible faction/officer item and decide on a penalty appropriate for it; they would make a mistake and someone would find an overpowered setup.
So it's not realistic to do given the way the tournament has to be run. That's why they can't be included. Not because they are overpowered.
Wouldn't you like to see someone come out with a single all-estamel fitted golem using the entire points allocation on one ship, to see how it would do against a whole team? I'd love to see stuff like that.
I suspect half the people slamming the op are just too vapid to think for themselves and do whatever everyone else is doing. The other half are just dumb.
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Smagd
Encina Technologies Namtz' aar K'in
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Posted - 2009.01.31 17:54:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Originally by: Kayosoni
lol you're so clueless....
do elaborate.
And Kayosoni is a former BoB Champion, so while they may not be participating in name I should think some of their fighters are in. |
corElement
hirr
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Posted - 2009.01.31 20:02:00 -
[29]
um, I'm morsus mihi.. I participated.. maybe not under mm, but as a representative under a mixed team. I think this is more fun. |
Atlas Elestra
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2009.02.03 07:25:00 -
[30]
Determining set-ups is complicated enough by just assigning ships points, much less fittings.
Plus when your on the field choosing targets you know how much it would be worth to blow up ship A or ship B, but if you rolled modules into it How do you address that when assigning points?
Sure we want some complexity towards it, but come on now let's be reasonable about it. Not to mention the ISK involved. Plus look at the last day of the Tournement. You could have 4 matches with not much time inbetween. Replacing ships or bringing replacements becomes some HUGE ISK nightmare.
I don't think the tournament is beyond any tweaking, but your suggestions are like taking a sledge hammer to it instead of a small ball pin hammer.
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