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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 47 post(s) |
Cailais
Amarr 0utbreak
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Posted - 2009.01.26 22:38:00 -
[421]
Originally by: Demeterus Edited by: Demeterus on 26/01/2009 22:21:32
This seems to be boiling down into a discussion about whether W-Space should only be playgrounds for pvp'ers, and if that is the case then I'm sorry but W-space will be utterly barren of players. What is the purpose of W-space? A "battleground" system?
I fully agree with that W-space should be difficult to get to, and difficult to maintain a presence in, but if logistics becomes impossible then you ARE going to see the largest alliances move in because they are the only ones with enough spatial coverage and personel coverage to be able to use it. High sec corps will not, you will find, move into W-space. Small alliances will not. Since there will be no targets (ie cheap carebear kills) the pirates and the pvp'ers will stick to the known haunts. You may stumble on a lost explorer with something wild in his eyes, and a beard reaching his toes sometimes, but unless there is at least the chance of decent logistics for corps and/or small alliences W-space will remain very, very underutilized.
At least, that is my impression of where this discussion is heading, and that is my impression of where you as devs are heading after the points have been raised in this thread.
Large Alliances will be common in W-space for the simple factor that they have lots of players. Those 0.0 players are already 'pro-risk' by default, W-Space will probably appeal to their psychology (rather than a risk averse Empire alliance).
However - 0.0 Alliances also have to secure their .0 borders, this will be hard to do if the fleet is ambling around W-Space with no simple and quick method of return. So, the big alliances will have to weigh the advantages of accessing W-Space with fewer 'boots on the ground' in 0.0 K-Space.
I think its just as likely that we will see the emergence of new W-Corps / Alliances as the prominence of established .0 Alliance blocks.
C.
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stadshage
Caldari Monkey Universe Corporation Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.01.26 22:40:00 -
[422]
nice blog cant wait to see how this wil work out
make scanning a almost must have skil in eve also make logistic's a far more important part of the game with blockade running in systems if ya find ya self in a system with a bunch of reds who like to give you there love
wel at least i hope it wil be like that |
Demeterus
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.01.26 22:42:00 -
[423]
Originally by: CCP Whisper
Originally by: Demeterus
- Make W-space hard to get to - but not impossible
- Make W-space difficult to keep a logistics link to - but not impossible except for the largest entities
- Petition the authorities to move March 10th till tomorrow - because the awesomeness of all this is off the scale
This is pretty much what we're aiming for (although getting the 10th of March moved would be a bureaucratic nightmare), albeit your definition of "hard, but not impossible" will likely differ from mine. I would also replace "largest entities" with "most determined entities". We've seen several small corporations successfully manage to mount large-scale endeavours in the past. Who knows, some of the high sec corporations and small alliances may surprise all of us.
I just got the impression that you devs were backtracking a bit to make logistics even more difficult than the description in the devblog, because here's what I can see what would be needed for a more "permanent" presence in a W-space system for my main's corp:
- We would need to setup a large pos.
- Barring the existence of suitable ice - there would be a need to ferry in fuel and parts for the pos
- The pos would be needed for replacing ships lost to these new NPC's, as well as modules, as well as ships lost to the players that want to "take over" the system
- The pos would be needed to build resource gathering ships
- The pos would be needed as a secure base to have one island of peace in a potentially very hostile place, just to rep and take a break
- There would need to be logistics to get resources back to K-space
In the dev blog there seems to be a fairly good balance which means you can't just warp in a capital fleet and wipe out a smaller corp or alliance that already exist there, and it was my impression that you were heading in a direction where even small scale logistics were becoming impossible. If I read that wrong, then I am of course humbled.
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DaemonBarber
Sesquipedalianites Incorporated
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Posted - 2009.01.26 22:44:00 -
[424]
Edited by: DaemonBarber on 26/01/2009 22:44:44
Originally by: Demeterus I just got the impression that you devs were backtracking a bit to make logistics even more difficult than the description in the devblog, because here's what I can see what would be needed for a more "permanent" presence in a W-space system for my main's corp:
- We would need to setup a large pos.
- Barring the existence of suitable ice - there would be a need to ferry in fuel and parts for the pos
- The pos would be needed for replacing ships lost to these new NPC's, as well as modules, as well as ships lost to the players that want to "take over" the system
- The pos would be needed to build resource gathering ships
- The pos would be needed as a secure base to have one island of peace in a potentially very hostile place, just to rep and take a break
- There would need to be logistics to get resources back to K-space
In the dev blog there seems to be a fairly good balance which means you can't just warp in a capital fleet and wipe out a smaller corp or alliance that already exist there, and it was my impression that you were heading in a direction where even small scale logistics were becoming impossible. If I read that wrong, then I am of course humbled.
I wouldn't worry about replacing lost ships - the NPC's will probably pod you too. |
Ikar Kaltin
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.26 22:45:00 -
[425]
Edited by: Ikar Kaltin on 26/01/2009 22:45:20
Originally by: DaemonBarber
I wouldn't worry about replacing lost ships - the NPC's will probably pod you too.
Nope, they arent that mean, they are just going to ransom.... |
Raymon James
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.01.26 22:46:00 -
[426]
Originally by: CCP Whisper
Originally by: Alz Shado Yes, we figured out that this would allow carriers and other capitals that are not meant to be in high sec space a way in. And we're taking measures to prevent that.
.
I hope your introduceng a "improved orca" as a exploration base for wormholes, perhaps a "pilot whale" or "Globicephala" or Calder=n
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Xennith
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.01.26 22:47:00 -
[427]
the easiest solution to the "gaming the system" and using a scout in w space to find w-k paths and get people in k->w is just to get rid of this idea of "every system has a link to k space". just say that if a k-w path is exhausted by mass being moved through it, it becomes unlikely that that system will get a k-w path for the next 2/3 days.
you can always find a w-w link and find a k-w path from that new space, but you cant rely on exhausting suboptimal k-w links by jumping repeatedly until you get a good one.
ive got to take my hat off to you guys tho, this has really got me interested. |
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CCP Whisper
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Posted - 2009.01.26 22:49:00 -
[428]
Originally by: Demeterus In the dev blog there seems to be a fairly good balance which means you can't just warp in a capital fleet and wipe out a smaller corp or alliance that already exist there, and it was my impression that you were heading in a direction where even small scale logistics were becoming impossible. If I read that wrong, then I am of course humbled.
No, I think small scale logistics will still have a place in wormhole space. I expect in the first few months we'll see people attempting both the large-scale, "take over systems and hold them" approach as well as smaller scale "ninja exploring" with four or five ships to dart in, grab what they can and get out. Which one will be the most profitable over time is an unknown quantity. Attempting to hold a system with the logistical wrangling that entails might not pay off as much as people think compared to the profit to be made from splitting your large group up into several squads who hit and run. We'll be keeping a very close eye on how things develop and re-balance as required. W-space is here to stay and we will do whatever we need to in order to make it a fun and rewarding game mechanic. |
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Rex Lashar
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.01.26 22:51:00 -
[429]
Originally by: Xennith the easiest solution to the "gaming the system" and using a scout in w space to find w-k paths and get people in k->w is just to get rid of this idea of "every system has a link to k space". just say that if a k-w path is exhausted by mass being moved through it, it becomes unlikely that that system will get a k-w path for the next 2/3 days.
you can always find a w-w link and find a k-w path from that new space, but you cant rely on exhausting suboptimal k-w links by jumping repeatedly until you get a good one.
ive got to take my hat off to you guys tho, this has really got me interested.
I thought of that already, but the problem with the idea is.. wormholes constantly respawn.
All you do is wait for a Wormhole to Empire link to show up. And if you get a WH to WH link and it stays as 2-way, you can jump back and forth to reduce the mass count and help it destabilize quicker (though it would mean picking the right ship).
All it would do is delay things, but say your corp set up a POS and had enough fuel on the first trip through to keep it online for a month. There are bound to be direct links to known space in that time, which you use to restock your fuel. Everything else can be obtained by using assembly arrays. |
Xennith
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.01.26 22:54:00 -
[430]
yep, wont stop you doing it, but it makes it non trivial.
you can still go to w space nextdoor and find a k-w link, but that requires :effort: and :coordination: instead of jumpjumpjumpjumpjumpjump *phut* "ok, wheres the next one come out?"
rinse repeat. |
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Cailais
Amarr 0utbreak
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Posted - 2009.01.26 22:54:00 -
[431]
Originally by: CCP Whisper
Originally by: Demeterus In the dev blog there seems to be a fairly good balance which means you can't just warp in a capital fleet and wipe out a smaller corp or alliance that already exist there, and it was my impression that you were heading in a direction where even small scale logistics were becoming impossible. If I read that wrong, then I am of course humbled.
No, I think small scale logistics will still have a place in wormhole space. I expect in the first few months we'll see people attempting both the large-scale, "take over systems and hold them" approach as well as smaller scale "ninja exploring" with four or five ships to dart in, grab what they can and get out. Which one will be the most profitable over time is an unknown quantity. Attempting to hold a system with the logistical wrangling that entails might not pay off as much as people think compared to the profit to be made from splitting your large group up into several squads who hit and run. We'll be keeping a very close eye on how things develop and re-balance as required. W-space is here to stay and we will do whatever we need to in order to make it a fun and rewarding game mechanic.
From what I've read so far it seems that W-Space has the potential to be very good indeed. A concern has got to be what if it is 'too good'? Have you considered the impact upon 0.0 space and the slightly shaky sov system (AKA POS borefare) and even more pressingly the impact on Low Sec space?
C.
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Ki Tarra
Caldari Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.26 22:55:00 -
[432]
Originally by: Rex Lashar 2-way travel = colonization of Wormhole space.
I agree with this conclusion.
However, I am not certain that is a bad thing.
Adding W-Space that can be colonized could be intersting.
Adding W-Space that cannot be colonized could be intersting.
We could have a bit of both by simply having some systems flagged to spawn only 1-way wormholes, and some that spawn 2-way wormholes.
The problem with 1-way wormholes is that you can't scout a route back to K-space. If you can't find your way back with your spoils, then there is no point going in the first place. |
Demeterus
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.01.26 22:55:00 -
[433]
Originally by: CCP Whisper
No, I think small scale logistics will still have a place in wormhole space. I expect in the first few months we'll see people attempting both the large-scale, "take over systems and hold them" approach as well as smaller scale "ninja exploring" with four or five ships to dart in, grab what they can and get out. Which one will be the most profitable over time is an unknown quantity. Attempting to hold a system with the logistical wrangling that entails might not pay off as much as people think compared to the profit to be made from splitting your large group up into several squads who hit and run. We'll be keeping a very close eye on how things develop and re-balance as required. W-space is here to stay and we will do whatever we need to in order to make it a fun and rewarding game mechanic.
Hehe, but ask yourself this: which was more important to the development of the New World - the Santa Maria or the Mayflower ;) |
War Fairy
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Posted - 2009.01.26 22:58:00 -
[434]
Originally by: Letrange Scanner changes... booooooner!!!!
One question I have is how the resolution of existing BPOs and inventory is going?
The adjustable scan sizes will be totally awesome. Being able to place em anywhere in a system and then warp TO them however I have a question: Could this be used by anyone wishing to establish a deep safespot?
If it works that way then yes. So what? If you can tell a probe to warp anywhere then deep space SS become no different than an inline SS. |
Raymon James
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.01.26 22:58:00 -
[435]
Originally by: CCP Whisper
Originally by: Demeterus In the dev blog there seems to be a fairly good balance which means you can't just warp in a capital fleet and wipe out a smaller corp or alliance that already exist there, and it was my impression that you were heading in a direction where even small scale logistics were becoming impossible. If I read that wrong, then I am of course humbled.
No, I think small scale logistics will still have a place in wormhole space. I expect in the first few months we'll see people attempting both the large-scale, "take over systems and hold them" approach as well as smaller scale "ninja exploring" with four or five ships to dart in, grab what they can and get out. Which one will be the most profitable over time is an unknown quantity. Attempting to hold a system with the logistical wrangling that entails might not pay off as much as people think compared to the profit to be made from splitting your large group up into several squads who hit and run. We'll be keeping a very close eye on how things develop and re-balance as required. W-space is here to stay and we will do whatever we need to in order to make it a fun and rewarding game mechanic.
I still think the idea of a Calder=n(pilot whale) mobile Exploration base is the solution to this problem. something that can deal with being dumped in low sec, has the hanger cap to suport a small-medium exploration corp, and bonuses to probes and Exploration modules. |
DaemonBarber
Sesquipedalianites Incorporated
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Posted - 2009.01.26 23:00:00 -
[436]
Originally by: War Fairy
Originally by: Letrange Scanner changes... booooooner!!!!
One question I have is how the resolution of existing BPOs and inventory is going?
The adjustable scan sizes will be totally awesome. Being able to place em anywhere in a system and then warp TO them however I have a question: Could this be used by anyone wishing to establish a deep safespot?
If it works that way then yes. So what? If you can tell a probe to warp anywhere then deep space SS become no different than an inline SS.
I thought they warped to you, not the other way around... |
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CCP Whisper
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Posted - 2009.01.26 23:01:00 -
[437]
Originally by: Demeterus Hehe, but ask yourself this: which was more important to the development of the New World - the Santa Maria or the Mayflower ;)
The Santa Maria proved that it could be done and inspired more to follow in its wake. The Mayflower brought those willing to work and fight to start a new life. I'd say they were both pretty important in the long-run. Which one are we aiming for in Apocrypha? Personally I am aiming for a bit of both. |
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Pirc Balar
Minmatar Destruction Reborn
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Posted - 2009.01.26 23:03:00 -
[438]
And this is why, when my sub is up in a couple months I'll be reactivating and actually logging on. Great stuff. Can't wait to read / learn more. |
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CCP Whisper
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Posted - 2009.01.26 23:05:00 -
[439]
Originally by: Raymon James I still think the idea of a Calder=n(pilot whale) mobile Exploration base is the solution to this problem. something that can deal with being dumped in low sec, has the hanger cap to suport a small-medium exploration corp, and bonuses to probes and Exploration modules.
This idea has merit and I would so get one for my player char. Whether we develop an exploration ship remains to be seen...let's see what people manage to do with the current resources at their disposal. Who knows, perhaps those cunning ship designers at ORE will spot a market niche to be filled at some point in the future. |
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Sade Onyx
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Posted - 2009.01.26 23:05:00 -
[440]
Sorry if its already been asked/answerd but will entering a wormhole deactivate a cloak ?
and, will there only ever be one wormhole in either K-space and W-space. eg, is it possible I might find two wormholes in one system, or maybe find 3 other wormholes in W-space?
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Rex Lashar
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.01.26 23:05:00 -
[441]
Originally by: Ki Tarra
Originally by: Rex Lashar 2-way travel = colonization of Wormhole space.
I agree with this conclusion.
However, I am not certain that is a bad thing.
Adding W-Space that can be colonized could be intersting.
Adding W-Space that cannot be colonized could be intersting.
We could have a bit of both by simply having some systems flagged to spawn only 1-way wormholes, and some that spawn 2-way wormholes.
The problem with 1-way wormholes is that you can't scout a route back to K-space. If you can't find your way back with your spoils, then there is no point going in the first place.
On the question of whether its not a bad thing...
First lets assume there are good, better and best WH systems based on their true-sec value. Since they're static, and people can concentrate.. who gets all the best ones? Even if just 5% of all Wormhole systems are colonized by big groups, they're not going to settle in the crappy areas. Which means it's no different from regular 0.0 - you have to settle for less if you want to avoid blobbing and fleet fights.
Second, if you can run POS forever, there will be POS everywhere. You're essentially adding more moons to harvest. And because you can keep them running forever, it means taking control of the best moons will become even more difficult over time. Instead of finding a Dyspro moon, mining it for a month, running out of fuel and packing up for someone else to discover.. you stay there. New players several months in will have an ever decreasing chance of striking rich. Now consider: how do you challenge the moon claim when it becomes time consuming and difficult to bring in equal numbers or dreadnaughts? Anyone think of that?
Third, the very idea of venturing into the unknown, taking risks, and exploring fails when people have the control to go where they want and do what they want with perfect safety. People will argue about local removal (in the above feedback), but a big part of it is to preserve this feeling.
On the question of not being able to scout back to known space...
Well, I don't understand what you mean here. Even if the wormhole doesn't SAY if it goes back to known space or wormhole space, you're not going to be stuck forever provided you can keep scanning down new wormholes.
Eventually you'll end up in known space. Obviously, where you end up is down to luck but even if you're in Period Basis or something stupid like that - you can make it back to Jita with your riches :P |
Clansworth
Blackwater USA Inc.
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Posted - 2009.01.26 23:05:00 -
[442]
So if it seems the desire is to persuade more towards a small expeditionary force of 5 or 6 pilots going in, grabbing what they can, and coming back out, what would that force include, and what would the gameplay be like?
1. Prober - Used to find the initial and exit wormholes into and out of W-Sapce. Also needed to find the ever important exploration content IN W-Space that the 'rewards' would come from. 2. Hauler - Needed to get the 'rewards' back out to K-Space for use. 3-5+. Combat Pilots - Protection against NPC's, other players, and to clear whatever sites are found.
It comes to mind that, without any way in W-Space for one to bring along extra ships - or to change ships, other than an Orca, that the job of members 1 and 2 would not be very enjoyable. It's almost as if an Orca is required, and that a small tower would also be a requisite. Fly the Orca in, with a bunch of Hac's or whatever, anchor the small tower, for a 'safe place to park the Orca, launch some combat ships, and fly out and do your stuff, hauling the 'booty' back to the POS, to be placed in the Orca. Pack it all back up, and fly to where ever you can get to. This of course, means that the wormhole would have to be large enough to carry both an Orca, but also all your combat ships.
As some other 'requests for wondrous information': - What is the Mass used in determining what can fit through a wormhole, the Ship Mass, or the aggregate mass of all cargo + the ship? This is exceedingly important as you start talking about bringing in a Orca, with a full hold, CHA, and SMA. - Looking at the above assumed scenario, this puts a minimum time required for a wormhole expedition at many hours, putting it out of reach for the 'casual gamer' that EvE, in many other respects, caters to nicely. |
Enthral
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Posted - 2009.01.26 23:05:00 -
[443]
Will it be at all possible to map the wormhole connections, given patience and luck?
For example, will the connections be such that individual wormholes are on a rotation? System A, B, C, A, B, C, etc.? This would allow determined individuals to know that while, at this particular moment, system A has no connections to system C, eventually it will again.
Exploration is almost pointless if things are COMPLETELY random. Why explore somewhere you can't map? A place you will never see again, except by pure chance? Why dive deeper into W-space if you're simply trapping yourself further, lost in a hall of mirrors?
-Enthral
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ZombieFan 69er
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Posted - 2009.01.26 23:06:00 -
[444]
Originally by: Raymon James
I still think the idea of a Calder=n(pilot whale) mobile Exploration base is the solution to this problem. something that can deal with being dumped in low sec, has the hanger cap to suport a small-medium exploration corp, and bonuses to probes and Exploration modules.
I think what your suggesting is an ORCA with a little less industrial/mining and more science and exploration etc? |
Brutal Bruno
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Posted - 2009.01.26 23:07:00 -
[445]
When can we expect this on SiSi??? |
Cailais
Amarr 0utbreak
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Posted - 2009.01.26 23:08:00 -
[446]
A quick observation / question for the Devs, in the blog you write:
"Probes can be repositioned in the solar system map using a drag and drop interface and will warp to their specified positions".
Clearly you could then create a mobile 'bookmark' of sorts to manouveur a fleet using this process. So, could anything be implemented to allow such movement without the use of probes?
C.
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War Fairy
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Posted - 2009.01.26 23:08:00 -
[447]
Originally by: Xennith the easiest solution to the "gaming the system" and using a scout in w space to find w-k paths and get people in k->w is just to get rid of this idea of "every system has a link to k space". just say that if a k-w path is exhausted by mass being moved through it, it becomes unlikely that that system will get a k-w path for the next 2/3 days.
1. Find good system. 2. Intentionally Crash WH 3. Enjoy private playground for 2/3 days. |
Zifban
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Posted - 2009.01.26 23:12:00 -
[448]
You should change it from a "Mass Limit" to a "Mass Timer".
Meaning if a WH is open, you can always transit it, regardless of how much mass it has remaining. When the mass timer goes zero or negative, it closes.
I don't want to end up finding a whole bunch of half-closed WHs lying around 'cause they've dropped below size X and no one wants to use size <X or get stuck on the other side.
Arbitrary limits suck. I've got a HAC, CBC, carrier or whatever. Let me use it. If I get stuck on the other side, so be it, but don't stop me because someone else has ran the counter down.
The size restricted accel gates are a pain, don't repeat that design.
I'd like to see a handful of caps end up in empire. A carrier/dread/MS/titan by itself is vulnerable . |
War Fairy
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Posted - 2009.01.26 23:13:00 -
[449]
Originally by: DaemonBarber
Originally by: War Fairy
Originally by: Letrange Scanner changes... booooooner!!!!
One question I have is how the resolution of existing BPOs and inventory is going?
The adjustable scan sizes will be totally awesome. Being able to place em anywhere in a system and then warp TO them however I have a question: Could this be used by anyone wishing to establish a deep safespot?
If it works that way then yes. So what? If you can tell a probe to warp anywhere then deep space SS become no different than an inline SS.
I thought they warped to you, not the other way around...
Reading is hard.
From the dev blog: Probes can be repositioned in the solar system map using a drag and drop interface and will warp to their specified positions |
Raymon James
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.01.26 23:14:00 -
[450]
Originally by: ZombieFan 69er
Originally by: Raymon James
I still think the idea of a Calder=n(pilot whale) mobile Exploration base is the solution to this problem. something that can deal with being dumped in low sec, has the hanger cap to suport a small-medium exploration corp, and bonuses to probes and Exploration modules.
I think what your suggesting is an ORCA with a little less industrial/mining and more science and exploration etc? that and a slightly better base tank. As it is its ok for use as an empire Explorer (theirs already at least one group that has Orcas as moble bases to explore) but given what may be needed to set up an op in Wspace it can use some optimising |
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