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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 47 post(s) |
Arthur Rage
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:29:00 -
[1081]
Originally by: War Fairy
This only stops small groups. Large groups of players can throw people at the problem to negate the game mechanic.
Due to the random nature I think worm hole camping will be staring at empty space. You're better off roving.
Depending on where the WH leads it may be a very bad idea to have 10 BS jump through and wait for 5 hours ... like Flashy reds sitting in HighSec, or in Hostile space. |
Ki Tarra
Caldari Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:37:00 -
[1082]
Originally by: Arthur Rage
Originally by: War Fairy
This only stops small groups. Large groups of players can throw people at the problem to negate the game mechanic.
Due to the random nature I think worm hole camping will be staring at empty space. You're better off roving.
Depending on where the WH leads it may be a very bad idea to have 10 BS jump through and wait for 5 hours ... like Flashy reds sitting in HighSec, or in Hostile space.
Could be fun it the camp doesn't watch the timer on the wormhole, or miscalculates the mass of their fleet.
"Uh, guys that Orca we just killed nearly closed the wormhole. First one through the hole keeps his ship, everyone else gets to self destruct." |
JimBob Leeroy
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:37:00 -
[1083]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Originally by: Ceist Mashal Excited for this! My question is if the W-spaces will have WH(wormhole) entrances from to seperate sovereignties? For instance; an entrance in amarr space and an entrance in gallente space leading to the same W-space.
That is totally possible. You could even get that exact effect without any entry into wormhole space! And that is in no way bound to empire2empire type of connections, just more likely than empire2nullsec for example.
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Armoured C
Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:42:00 -
[1084]
still want pictures of wormholes |
Raymon James
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:44:00 -
[1085]
Edited by: Raymon James on 28/01/2009 18:54:01 Edited by: Raymon James on 28/01/2009 18:53:17 Edited by: Raymon James on 28/01/2009 18:45:41
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Originally by: Zackalwe
Originally by: CCP Prism X
It's really not as nice and comfy over there as some of the proponents of Alliances claiming everything with POSs would like you to think. I'm quite looking forward to following to seeing these plans unfold upon launch.
I find in a lot of MMOs the devs consistently underestimate the resourcefulness and determination of some of their playerbase. If it turns out that deathstars do end up on the majority of good moons, will you then agree that allowing this was a mistake and make changes to the mechanics?
Let me rephrase that for you: [i]It's really not as nice and comfy over there as some of the proponents of Alliances claiming everything with POSs would like you to think. I'm quite looking forward to following to seeing these plans unfold upon launch. . . .
On a personal note: I'm a player as well man. I've been an MMO player for much longer than I've been an MMO developer. And I'd have to have been playing some.. apocryphal.. MMOs to think that devs will always out-think players. I would also have to have zero programming experience.
Ive been running some spread sheets to see what the numbers look like
my base assumptions 1) the Average wormhole would only fit an orca (meaning half the time it would not fit) 2) wormholes would randomly conect to ANY system including to itself and other wormholes 3) needing to have a network of Orcas ready to move within three jumps of any given new wormhole 4)haveing orcas deployed in a patern on standby so that their is at least one within 3 jumps of where you land a wormhole(based on the "core" unit being in Jita)(to clarify the wormhole had to land somehere in or very close to the Forge) and 5)you are able to scan and crush a wormhole gate every 5 min
it takes an average of just under 6 hours a day to get a given wormhole to link back to the Forge with a wormhole big enough to allow an orca
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Zhora Six
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:54:00 -
[1086]
Originally by: CCP Prism X At any rate: As it stands the in-out trick will do you a lot of good to dictate connections from W-K and I, for one, dislike that. I am however known to be difficult to the point of malice so you don't need to worry just yet. The team does recognize the issue at hand and is contemplating whether it should be addressed and if so, how.
I don't like the idea of an in-out trick either. |
Zhora Six
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:06:00 -
[1087]
Edited by: Zhora Six on 28/01/2009 19:07:06
Originally by: Des Jardin 2. Eject ships exiting a wormhole, that is, give them some degree of forward momentum that they need to turn and reapproach the wormhole before they could reenter.
I like this idea. It could work much like appearing on the other side of a stargate - at a distance from the entrance. Larger, slower ships would take longer to return to the wormhole, while smaller faster ships could return to the wormhole more quickly. This could balance out the factor that ship mass would play for doing the in-out trick to quickly close a wormhole. |
Aya Vandenovich
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:07:00 -
[1088]
Originally by: Zhora Six
Originally by: CCP Prism X At any rate: As it stands the in-out trick will do you a lot of good to dictate connections from W-K and I, for one, dislike that. I am however known to be difficult to the point of malice so you don't need to worry just yet. The team does recognize the issue at hand and is contemplating whether it should be addressed and if so, how.
I don't like the idea of an in-out trick either.
I don't think it would be entirely unreasonable to put some kind of "aggression timer" on ships exiting a wormhole. Nothing too annoying, but enough that trying to do multiple jumps to collapse a wormhole would take serious time in most cases. |
Zhora Six
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:14:00 -
[1089]
Edited by: Zhora Six on 28/01/2009 19:14:17
Originally by: Aya Vandenovich I don't think it would be entirely unreasonable to put some kind of "aggression timer" on ships exiting a wormhole. Nothing too annoying, but enough that trying to do multiple jumps to collapse a wormhole would take serious time in most cases.
A cooldown timer, due to the stress of travelling through the wormhole. I considered that concept, but static timers always feel contrived to me.
Makes me think of Battlestar Galactica - We can't spool up the FTL drive for another X minutes!
edit: sp |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:21:00 -
[1090]
No stront timers on pos.
+
New kind of POS for WH space that only has enough space for a [moon miner, refinery array, hangar, or large gun] + a small gun
=
Small corp can find, move pilots in, and kill a POS before a big alliance can do anything.
Through camping and days of diligence, eradicate alts in teh system to make the WH system disappear from the large alliance's vision. Pow, small corp can now beat a large alliances hold. |
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Darkdood
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:26:00 -
[1091]
I think I understand now why I dislike this whole setup...
The small picture... #1 Not allowing Sovereignty
The problem is the devs gimp your ability to make a wormspace system "home" by not allowing sov. Why would you want sov anyway? Well frankly you wouldn't accept for 2-3 things...
Cap ship maintenance bays and assem arrays... System scanning array... Outposts... POS fuel savings...
Everything else is useless or not allowed for various reasons. I'm not really sure about allowing outposts but I'd really like to see the ability of wormspace POS's to use cap ship bays and or system scanners. Especially the cap ship arrays. If you have to do everything locally in that system things like that are very important.
Solution A - keep current system and set it were max sov is only lvl 1-2. You can never get 2-4 so 80% of this stuff is unusable.
Solution B - rig the code to specially allow a few POS modules to work in wormspace even without sov. I lean towards this one myself.
#2 POS fuel I've seen posts about this before but the structure of wormholes makes it an even more potent argument. Give us the ability to make our own fuel. I don't care if it takes 3 times the isk value to do. I should be able to mine gather and whatever until my fingers bleed to get the fuel IN SYSTEM to make my POS's run. So ...
1 - add BPO's to make the various trade goods that are part of POS fuel. enriched uranium, mechanical parts, oxygen etc... 2 - add BPO's to convert things from one type to another... IE if i find local ice that is oxygen isotopes and my POS's run on Helium give me a BPO were I can take 150 units of Oxy-Iso's + 50 units of xyz gas (weather this is POS poo or gas cloud mining doesn't matter) the result would be I have 100 Helium Iso's etc etc... Its not efficient or cost effective but it allows you to use any type of tower or capital ship with any resources. 3 - make all wormspace systems randomly spawn grav sites that can contain every resource in the game including ice. Also just like you always have one wormhole you always have one grav site in every system. So you are always guaranteed to have something to mine. Its just a random choice as to what. I think you get the jist...
This would not be cost effective in K-space were you can just buy them from NPC's & players etc etc but in W-space its far easier to mine 2,000 isk worth of minerals and make mechanical parts than to buy them for 600 isk and try to import them.
The big picture... This setup does solve a big problem in eve and that is the large alliances controlling 0.0 with blob fleets. However the only way it does so is by completely isolating yourself from the rest of the world. The only way to truly take advantage of these wormsapce systems is to pack up everything and move there. You scout whatever wormhole is leaving the system and when you get a lucky one that goes to highsec you ferry in/out as many things as you can before it closes, or if the devs do what I've suggested above you could just stay in that one system and never ever leave. In fact leaving would be a bad idea because getting back would be a problem... Which is why I'm insulted... The devs solution doesn't bring us together to work as a group or fight each other etc... It leads to separating us. Which sort of defeats the purpose of an MMO.
cont... |
Darkdood
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:27:00 -
[1092]
cont...
Lets go in another direction... For a second lets forget POS's sov etc...
Why not give us the ability to moon mine with a ship? Obviously it would not work if a POS was already mining that moon. For that matter make it were only one ship can mine a moon at a time. Probably create a new capital ship specifically to do this. Jump capable. Lowsec only. This would allow us to access moon minerals in 0.4 space and in wormspace without POS's.
More importantly why not give us the ability to manufacture in space with a ship? A few months back I came up with an idea for "explorer" super caps. I never posted it. One of the biggest problems I ran into was the idea that this ship needed to be able to function in deep space without stargates. That meant having BPO's with you and simply mining and or making everything on the spot. Same thing applies here. Why not make a module for ships that has one manufacturing line. Give it a high material requirement but speed up the build time. I'm sure there are some technical issues but I doubt its impossible. Just make it were if you unmount the module its the same as canceling the job. You lose your stuff. You can scale this with multiple module types and/or a new ship class so its not abused. Run out of probes? NP make more.
With these two things you wouldn't need POS's at all in wormspace. Everything could happen on board the ships.
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Thebro Nobrunder
Schrodinger's Renegades
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:29:00 -
[1093]
you could also make wormholes become unstable if too many ins and outs happened within a given amount of time. When this happened the current ship traveling through the wormhole is destroyed! |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:31:00 -
[1094]
Darkdood, all that will only increase teh hold that a large alliance could maintain on WH space. I think the piont of WH space is to allow exploration and small corps a chance at the pie. |
Zhora Six
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:38:00 -
[1095]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Darkdood, all that will only increase teh hold that a large alliance could maintain on WH space. I think the piont of WH space is to allow exploration and small corps a chance at the pie.
Right, except that it's not pie, it's gateaux. |
War Fairy
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:48:00 -
[1096]
Originally by: Xailia
Originally by: War Fairy K-space WHs only lead to W-space.
Prism X has left that as a possibility though:
Originally by: CCP Prism X I just said there would be a possibility K<->K connections. I emphasize possibility to ensure that people don't expect that to be the norm.
Thinking on this a bit. Yeah there could be rare K-K wormholes. Maybe at launch maybe in the future. We don't have enough info. |
War Fairy
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:49:00 -
[1097]
Originally by: Thebro Nobrunder you could also make wormholes become unstable if too many ins and outs happened within a given amount of time. When this happened the current ship traveling through the wormhole is destroyed!
This makes it easier to crash WHs. Go really fast with a shuttle. |
War Fairy
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:50:00 -
[1098]
Originally by: JimBob Leeroy
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Originally by: Ceist Mashal Excited for this! My question is if the W-spaces will have WH(wormhole) entrances from to seperate sovereignties? For instance; an entrance in amarr space and an entrance in gallente space leading to the same W-space.
That is totally possible. You could even get that exact effect without any entry into wormhole space! And that is in no way bound to empire2empire type of connections, just more likely than empire2nullsec for example.
Thank you. So noted. |
Shushan Kadesh
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:55:00 -
[1099]
An important question - will you be allowing trail accounts to access the wormholes? If so, it really eliminates the risk since if I find a hole, I can just make a trial account and send it through to peek on the other side - and if in a wormhole system with a trail account, I can just pop the noob through all the exit holes I find until I find one leading back to highsec or to my desired 0.0 region without worrying about running into enemy space. |
War Fairy
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:56:00 -
[1100]
Originally by: Raymon James
1) the Average wormhole would only fit an orca (meaning half the time it would not fit)
What numbers are you using? An orca is 250,000,000 kg. A rokh is 105,300,00 kg.
If the "average" worm hole is 2 battleships then so much for exploring with friends. It sounds like you're low-balling.
Quote: it takes an average of just under 6 hours a day to get a given wormhole to link back to the Forge with a wormhole big enough to allow an orca
Why are you limiting it to The Forge? It's much quicker to get out anywhere in Empire and then fly to The Forge.
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War Fairy
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:57:00 -
[1101]
Originally by: Shushan Kadesh An important question - will you be allowing trail accounts to access the wormholes? If so, it really eliminates the risk since if I find a hole, I can just make a trial account and send it through to peek on the other side - and if in a wormhole system with a trail account, I can just pop the noob through all the exit holes I find until I find one leading back to highsec or to my desired 0.0 region without worrying about running into enemy space.
THIS! |
Kal Shakai
Dominus Imperium
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:58:00 -
[1102]
Edited by: Kal Shakai on 28/01/2009 19:58:32 I really wish they had made the wormhole network more of an "Expedition to the North Pole" type of environment. You go into the wormhole network and spend months trying to find the back systems and such. You may even have to wait for the summer "thaw" to get back out. Unfortunately, it looks more like most of the network will be attached to known space. If I had designed it I might have it look like the following. The deeper you get into the network, the more lucrative it becomes and the harder it is to find your way out.
Wormhole Type K1 : Spawns random connection to 1.0 - 0.5 K-Space Wormhole Type K2 : Spawns random connection to 0.4 - 0.1 K-Space Wormhole Type K3 : Spawns random connection to 0.0 K-Space Wormhole Type W1 : Spawns random connection to W-Space A, W-Space B, W-Space C or W-Space D Wormhole Type W2 : Spawns random connection to W-Space A, W-Space B, W-Space C, W-Space D or W-Space E Wormhole Type W3 : Spawns random connection to W-Space D, W-Space E or W-Space F Wormhole Type W4 : Spawns random connection to W-Space E, W-Space F or W-Space G Wormhole Type W5 : Spawns random connection to W-Space F or W-Space G
W-Space A: Always has a Wormhole Type K1 and a Wormhole Type W1 W-Space B: Always has a Wormhole Type K2 and a Wormhole Type W1 W-Space C: Always has a Wormhole Type K3 and a Wormhole Type W1 W-Space D: Always has a Wormhole Type W2 W-Space E: Always has a Wormhole Type W3 W-Space F: Always has a Wormhole Type W4 W-Space G: Always has a Wormhole Type W5
~450 of W-Space A, B and C Wormhole Type K1 -> W-Space A : ~8 per empire region Wormhole Type K2 -> W-Space B : ~2 per empire region Wormhole Type K3 -> W-Space C : ~10 per null-sec region
W-Space D: ~1500 W-Space E: ~450 W-Space F: ~85 W-Space G: ~15 |
Geezelbub
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Posted - 2009.01.28 20:01:00 -
[1103]
Yeah we need ship building and moon mining super caps in W space........
Crap, gate camp strategies....roving gangs of griefers, death stars. The Alliances and big 0,0 corps already have all that throughout 0,0. and what a lovely place it is. And yes I have been there, and still sneak in to some NPC 0,0 stations to do research on BPO's. Exciting...at times..fun?? not very. But silly me, I try to support myself doing positive thing s in the game.
Dominate, kill, kill, kill. Is that all this game is to so many of you? If the only fun you get out of this is spoiling the fun of others, you might possibly consider seeking some professional help.
and now we have guys whining they can't get SOV in the new W space......lol
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Illectroculus Defined
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Posted - 2009.01.28 20:13:00 -
[1104]
I have to say I'm kinda fond of the idea of an evil pirate corp setting up base in one of these systems and bringing terror wherever the exit wormhole opens up. Reminds me of some crappy SF stories where terrors lie in the void and one day this wormhole comes to earth. |
Cailais
Amarr 0utbreak
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Posted - 2009.01.28 20:17:00 -
[1105]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Originally by: Granmethedon III It's probably been said, but the in-out trick could easily be resolved by making ALL wormholes one way only.
Yes it has, but as I see it that would go against the core design. Although everything is mutable that would be a huge change that should *not* be made for that express purpose alone. It should be a reaction to a core mechanics change, it would require the answer to the question of "Why do we want wormhole space?" to change. Not a possibly exploitative mechanic surfacing.
That being said, the code architecture is not done in such a draconic manner that it's impossible to switch. We might even, possibly at some point, maybe, i wish i had more words to indicate utter uncertainty, have two kinds of worm holes. 1-Way and 2-Way. Hell, we could probably put a permanent wormhole somewhere that would simple throw you out the exit of a random, already existing wormhole.
What I'm trying to say is: Impossible is what we put on our cereal in the morning.
I quite like that idea. What seems certain is CCP are leaving their options wide open to tweak and adjust the worm hole mechanic as required.
Can a dev explain what information a located wormhole will provide? Will it offer any indication of its destination, the mass remaining on it or its life span?
C.
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Rosur
Gallente Infestation.
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Posted - 2009.01.28 20:18:00 -
[1106]
Originally by: Shushan Kadesh An important question - will you be allowing trail accounts to access the wormholes? If so, it really eliminates the risk since if I find a hole, I can just make a trial account and send it through to peek on the other side - and if in a wormhole system with a trail account, I can just pop the noob through all the exit holes I find until I find one leading back to highsec or to my desired 0.0 region without worrying about running into enemy space.
Yea this shouldnt be allowed. May be theres a skill for useing the wormholes (each lvl gives u more info on them and what sort of sytem u end up in) which is not allowed on trail accounts.
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Malen Nenokal
Eden Federal Recon
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Posted - 2009.01.28 20:24:00 -
[1107]
Any estimate on when we can see this on sisi? |
Kleb Siella
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.01.28 21:16:00 -
[1108]
My money's on the players. Always on the players. |
Armoured C
Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.01.28 21:18:00 -
[1109]
pictures ? |
Wedgetail
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Posted - 2009.01.28 21:23:00 -
[1110]
Edited by: Wedgetail on 28/01/2009 21:29:47 'grats ccp for coming up with a system that allows small alliances and corporations/groups to be able to effectively match the larger ones both in combat and industry.
This new wormhole system opens up entirely new possibilities for covert warfare in eve and tbh that's something I've been looking forward to for a long time.
I am dissapointed that black ops can't operate thier jump systems into or out of the new systems but i can understand why the restriction is in place.
Pity that the black ops is still missing a 'role' being 'able' to do most things but not really able to perform any task well enough to be useful yet.
I was hoping they had been given the ability to operate thier drives in the new systems to offset this fact to a point but can't have everything I spose :)
again well done looking forward getting lost in space >=). |
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