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Davien Thule	Posted - 2009.01.27 03:48:00 - [1] Warp to 0. For the rest of you care bears it was your finest moment in this game. To all of you newbies who're just beginning I don't expect you to understand.
Ticondrius	Posted - 2009.01.27 03:51:00 - [2] If you don't know how to catch them on the other side, you failhard. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- PROPOSAL: Chaos Incarnate's Face MMORPG: Many Men Online Role Playing Girls
BloodyWomble	Posted - 2009.01.27 03:54:00 - [3] Originally by: Ticondrius If you don't know how to catch them on the other side, you failhard. and the gates that put you upto 60km away from someone else upon jumping thru the gate ? ya bloody split arse.
Ticondrius	Posted - 2009.01.27 03:55:00 - [4] Edited by: Ticondrius on 27/01/2009 03:55:55 Don't camp regional gates, silly. Besides, that sounds like Empire PvP, which we all know to be a joke anyway. Come on out to 0.0, interdictors and bubbles make it far more enjoyable. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- PROPOSAL: Chaos Incarnate's Face MMORPG: Many Men Online Role Playing Girls
Apoctasy Young Enterprise Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2009.01.27 03:55:00 - [5] Gatecamping isn't pvp.
Cypher V Minmatar Ore Mongers	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:02:00 - [6] Originally by: Apoctasy Gatecamping isn't pvp. signed, Signed and ****ing SIGNED! It's boring, and KB padding that doesn't count for anything. "Hey, we'd like to join your alliance, check out our KB!" "Erm... You camped a gate for 18 hours a day for the past three years... grats on your hauler ganking... Go join Goons." ---------------------------------------------- I'm going to lol in your mouth, and you're going to love it!
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:03:00 - [7] I agree, but you're so getting flamed.
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:04:00 - [8] Other than gatecampers, who here who was actually around for WT15 liked WT15? Those days were awful. I'm glad autopilot has stayed at WT15, but manual flying with that as the closest jump setting was just tedious and lame.
Ticondrius	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:07:00 - [9] Edited by: Ticondrius on 27/01/2009 04:07:55 Before instas trading got popular, I used to make my own. Got really good at it. Guess what? Instas ruined your Gate Camping fun LONG before WT0 ever landed. All you got to kill then were autopiloting idiots and noobs. I remember CLEARLY gate campers begging for CCP to make bookmarks impossible to make within the same grid as a gate, because it made it so hard to engage targets. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- PROPOSAL: Chaos Incarnate's Face MMORPG: Many Men Online Role Playing Girls
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:16:00 - [10] Originally by: Davien Thule Warp to 0. For the rest of you care bears it was your finest moment in this game. To all of you newbies who're just beginning I don't expect you to understand. /signed PVP no longer exists in EVE because of this. goes back to carebearing ------ I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.
bff Jill	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:17:00 - [11] I kind of miss making instas for everywhere. Not using them, just making them. also agreeing gate camping is not pvp, its an alternative grind to mission/ratting to make isk for real pvp.
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:19:00 - [12] Originally by: bff Jill I kind of miss making instas for everywhere. Not using them, just making them. also agreeing gate camping is not pvp, its an alternative grind to mission/ratting to make isk for real pvp. You actually made them? Noob. 100 bookmarks leading to a random system renamed and put up in escrow as "full region instas!" FTW. ------ I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.
Dreamwalker	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:24:00 - [13] I want to be able to bubble sections of space between gates so I can pull people out of warp. Gate camping and station camping sucks. No but but but no it sucks.
OffBeaT Caldari KaMiKaZes	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:25:00 - [14] its not pvp its quake camping at spawn points..
Ticondrius	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:26:00 - [15] Spawn camping.... Brilliant m8. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- PROPOSAL: Chaos Incarnate's Face MMORPG: Many Men Online Role Playing Girls
Ocih Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:42:00 - [16] Originally by: Dreamwalker I want to be able to bubble sections of space between gates so I can pull people out of warp. Gate camping and station camping sucks. No but but but no it sucks. Not sure if that is sarcasm but you can do that..
Lady Aja Caldari Hannibals Pirates Damnation of Souls	Posted - 2009.01.27 05:32:00 - [17] I thought hiding in npc corps and corp jumping on war decsg did alot of damage...
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order	Posted - 2009.01.27 05:41:00 - [18] Nothing, I'm having a hell of a time. What game are you playing?
Khlitouris RegusII	Posted - 2009.01.27 05:41:00 - [19] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Other than gatecampers, who here who was actually around for WT15 liked WT15? Those days were awful. I'm glad autopilot has stayed at WT15, but manual flying with that as the closest jump setting was just tedious and lame. Me and wt15 was great actually gave the eve universe a sense of scale not like now when it takes 15 mins to go from end of eve to the other.
Jukhta Mein Domini Umbrus R.U.R.	Posted - 2009.01.27 05:52:00 - [20] Gate camping is not PVP.
Joe Umbra Legion Shadow Empire.	Posted - 2009.01.27 05:54:00 - [21] Only thing that ruins PVP is FOTM sheep combined with forum whiners. Prepare for Falcon nurf, then ishtar nerf, then maybe a nice rupture nurf. Bland pvp without variety is the only inevitable outcome of FOTM sheep combined with forum whiners.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.27 05:56:00 - [22] Originally by: Joe ...then maybe a nice rupture nurf. DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE
Rexthor Hammerfists Rage of Inferno Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2009.01.27 05:57:00 - [23] Originally by: Davien Thule Warp to 0. For the rest of you care bears it was your finest moment in this game. To all of you newbies who're just beginning I don't expect you to understand. Im glad i can spend my time pvping rather then copying bookmarks for the gates, that was one of the biggest gamebreaker for me in all of 5 years of playing. - Rage is Recruiting
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2009.01.27 06:03:00 - [24] Originally by: Davien Thule Warp to 0. For the rest of you care bears it was your finest moment in this game. To all of you newbies who're just beginning I don't expect you to understand. WTZ is the best thing that have happend to this game. Except maybe for Gatecampers, but those are not noob PvPers anyway. For the rest of us it saved us time to to other things then managing a 20k bookmark list. Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL
Banana Torres The Green Banana Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.27 06:12:00 - [25] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Other than gatecampers, who here who was actually around for WT15 liked WT15? Those days were awful. Yep, spending ****ing hours and hours copying hundreds of bookmarks so that I could warp to zero. But now I don't thrash the db when I log in and the OP has an excuse as to why he is so rubbish at PvP. A real win/win situation.
KISOGOKU	Posted - 2009.01.27 06:45:00 - [26] Do you know what was worse than WT15 ? Copying all instas for several regions for new corpies ,i dont want to think that days Originally by: Dirk Magnum Other than gatecampers, who here who was actually around for WT15 liked WT15? Those days were awful.
Ris Dnalor Minmatar Ex Cruoris Libertas	Posted - 2009.01.27 07:19:00 - [27] i want my insta-bookmarks back.. .ccp stolez them :(
Trader20	Posted - 2009.01.27 07:38:00 - [28] Originally by: Apoctasy Gatecamping isn't pvp. Oh man but a 50 man gatecamp vs 1 hauler is the only pvp I'm good at
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2009.01.27 07:44:00 - [29] ... warp to 0 havnt change much on real pvp... pvp with something worth fighting for. gate camping is like spawn camping... you get bored, get tired of it, and neither you or the person you shoot at would enjoy it very much... dont blame it on warp to zero, blame it on the loopsided fights that gate camper set up. lets face it, it is hard to feel special when you kill someone at those odds...
R3dSh1ft Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.01.27 07:48:00 - [30] Meh, WTZ was a technical solution to a technical problem, not a gameplay decision. You could always make gang warps on coverts in the old days, considering every other part of pvp has gotten harder to do solo and running away has got easier to do solo, I'd agree with the OP. DKOD - an awesome synchronised killing machine
Inertial Killing Spree Inc	Posted - 2009.01.27 07:54:00 - [31] Originally by: Apoctasy Gatecamping isn't pvp. Apoc got it right. Fighting at gates is one thing, sitting at gates for hours to end is boring and ruins the fun for real pvpers. we are recruiting!
eliminator2 Gallente Annihilate.	Posted - 2009.01.27 08:30:00 - [32] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Other than gatecampers, who here who was actually around for WT15 liked WT15? Those days were awful. I'm glad autopilot has stayed at WT15, but manual flying with that as the closest jump setting was just tedious and lame. i agree i used to gate camp because i was in a low sec that was sarrounded by high sec so i couldnt move lol but after abit i started moving and goin real pvp the fact is if it wasnt for the wt0 id still be gate campin and bored to **** so im glad ccp made the changes and they were balanced changes as well
Davien Thule	Posted - 2009.01.27 09:30:00 - [33] Why are you all taking this somewhere it doesn't need to go? Face it, 95% of PvP happened at either gates OR stations at the undock point. That's how it all initiates, whether it be some unlucky hauler from 0.0 or a fleet warping to the gate just before the battle. Gate camps was a risk that is taken whenever you go into low sec, and that was what made this game so fun; it's PIRACY and it was a part of the game, regardless. Warp to 0 ruined PvP, and I would be a zealous Eve player were it still around.
ArmyOfMe 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.27 09:56:00 - [34] Originally by: Davien Thule Warp to 0 ruined PvP, and I would be a zealous Eve player were it still around. ^^ this basicly. other then the very few fights you can get in a belt, all pvp happens at stations/gates(unless you count pos warfare as pvp)
Hopey Gallente L.O.S.T. Industries	Posted - 2009.01.27 09:58:00 - [35] Originally by: Apoctasy Gatecamping isn't pvp. this is the absolute truth. any gatecamper that thinks they are PvPers are delusional. \|~~~~~~~~~~~\| Hopey CEO & Founder, L.O.S.T. Industries \|~~~~\|
Hopey Gallente L.O.S.T. Industries	Posted - 2009.01.27 10:07:00 - [36] every night i go out to a bar and i wait outside and when people come out, i club them unconscious with the lid of a rubbish bin. ergo, i'm a street-fighter! gatecamping = lame gatecamping != pvp \|~~~~~~~~~~~\| Hopey CEO & Founder, L.O.S.T. Industries \|~~~~\|
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.01.27 10:41:00 - [37] Sitting at gate and ganking noobs who haven't copied 1 zillion instajump BMs yet isn't pvp. There's still plenty of fights. Sorry if your easymode Ganking For Beginners now takes more effort. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOSER EVE TV- Bring it back! Laptop, NVidia7900GS, Ubuntu 8.04, WINE
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.27 10:55:00 - [38] Following the OPs logic I would have thought, that it was instas that killed PvP in EVE long time before WTZ was introduced. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Spurty Caldari Technologic Dance	Posted - 2009.01.27 10:57:00 - [39] oh i do miss the horrendous lag generated as people copied their 4k of wtz bookmarks and a hundred people made copies from it .. .. wait a moment! pvp is alive, it was more fun when minmatar ships could 1volley you into hull tbh, having to bring 2+ friends to break a tank was a bigger death knell
Davien Thule	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:07:00 - [40] Sure, it's PvP. I'd always have fun setting up a gate camp bust op with my corp, and usually succeed.
Davien Thule	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:08:00 - [41] Originally by: Spurty oh i do miss the horrendous lag generated as people copied their 4k of wtz bookmarks and a hundred people made copies from it .. .. wait a moment! pvp is alive, it was more fun when minmatar ships could 1volley you into hull tbh, having to bring 2+ friends to break a tank was a bigger death knell That's taken care of now with their (read: CCP) new hardware to drop latency with the servers.
Spurty Caldari Technologic Dance	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:10:00 - [42] Originally by: Davien Thule That's taken care of now with their (read: CCP) new hardware to drop latency with the servers. but it only ever caused load on the system spawning copies. BrRAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIiiiiiiNNNNNNZzzzzzzzzzzz
Ocih Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:14:00 - [43] I learned some of my most valuable lessons setting up bookmark runs. One as pointed out, gate camping is not PvP. Using noob alts to make the 30 km run to set up a gate BM, I got to see just how spaced out these people are. A good many times, they would pop the same Velator 50, 60 times knowing it was an Alpha clone and with a local respawn. Like mindless animals, they would warp in and pop the Velator over and over. It was really rather tragic to watch. Then they would get ****ed at me and smack in local because I kept coming back and 'made' them kill me, over and over like mindless animals..
Davien Thule	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:18:00 - [44] Originally by: Ocih I learned some of my most valuable lessons setting up bookmark runs. One as pointed out, gate camping is not PvP. Using noob alts to make the 30 km run to set up a gate BM, I got to see just how spaced out these people are. A good many times, they would pop the same Velator 50, 60 times knowing it was an Alpha clone and with a local respawn. Like mindless animals, they would warp in and pop the Velator over and over. It was really rather tragic to watch. Then they would get ****ed at me and smack in local because I kept coming back and 'made' them kill me, over and over like mindless animals.. So you're speaking for yourself or are you speaking out of your ass?
Spurty Caldari Technologic Dance	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:19:00 - [45] i too had the knack for creating them, could have all gates and station undock spots in minutes. i'm cool with removing wtz if you can't place a bookmark within 250 of a gate :P BrRAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIiiiiiiNNNNNNZzzzzzzzzzzz
Ocih Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:29:00 - [46] Originally by: Davien Thule Originally by: Ocih I learned some of my most valuable lessons setting up bookmark runs. One as pointed out, gate camping is not PvP. Using noob alts to make the 30 km run to set up a gate BM, I got to see just how spaced out these people are. A good many times, they would pop the same Velator 50, 60 times knowing it was an Alpha clone and with a local respawn. Like mindless animals, they would warp in and pop the Velator over and over. It was really rather tragic to watch. Then they would get ****ed at me and smack in local because I kept coming back and 'made' them kill me, over and over like mindless animals.. So you're speaking for yourself or are you speaking out of your ass? Why?
Gneeznow Minmatar Goo Spew	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:29:00 - [47] things were a LOT more dangerous before warp to 0 which was good, now you can run around low sec with zero risk almost (sub battleship)
Darwin Duck A Quest Millitia	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:36:00 - [48] Originally by: Davien Thule Warp to 0. For the rest of you care bears it was your finest moment in this game. To all of you newbies who're just beginning I don't expect you to understand. I disagree, gatecamping scared many people away from low sec and 0.0. IMHO limiting gatecamoing will populate 0.0 and in the long run give us more PvP.
Spurty Caldari Technologic Dance	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:41:00 - [49] Originally by: Darwin Duck I disagree, gatecamping scared many people away from low sec and 0.0. IMHO limiting gatecamoing will populate 0.0 and in the long run give us more PvP. Ah something along these lines could work. How do you suggest limiting time people can congregate at a gate? I thought spawning a ton of rogue drones (no bounties) on them to clear them off every 5 mins in could work. Save on having to do mining duty as well perhaps helping more people fight BrRAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIiiiiiiNNNNNNZzzzzzzzzzzz
Ocih Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:47:00 - [50] Originally by: Spurty Originally by: Darwin Duck I disagree, gatecamping scared many people away from low sec and 0.0. IMHO limiting gatecamoing will populate 0.0 and in the long run give us more PvP. Ah something along these lines could work. How do you suggest limiting time people can congregate at a gate? I thought spawning a ton of rogue drones (no bounties) on them to clear them off every 5 mins in could work. Save on having to do mining duty as well perhaps helping more people fight As long as they have a short despawn timer. I'm picturing the 150 concord on the gates in high sec suicide systems.
Darwin Duck A Quest Millitia	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:51:00 - [51] Originally by: Spurty Originally by: Darwin Duck I disagree, gatecamping scared many people away from low sec and 0.0. IMHO limiting gatecamoing will populate 0.0 and in the long run give us more PvP. Ah something along these lines could work. How do you suggest limiting time people can congregate at a gate? I thought spawning a ton of rogue drones (no bounties) on them to clear them off every 5 mins in could work. Save on having to do mining duty as well perhaps helping more people fight One thing they could do is make you invunerable in shuttles to make people be able to jump out to 0.0 and buy ships and establish themself out there. however this screams scouting exploits to high heaven. So , maybe some avatar transport service, just to transport your character out there, many give up after 2-3 failed attempts through 30 low.0 systems and are scared away. Not all corps can escort their new recruits out there. I want these people to get out there safe and join the fight for terretories and power! Then they can add more 0.0 systems as population grows in the outer regions. Gatecamping is lame, fleet ops hunting down red's in your backyard is the cool part of eve, but thats just my opinion. Everybody likes different things, so the Devs just have to find that perfect balance, but it's so elusive!
Spurty Caldari Technologic Dance	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:51:00 - [52] >.< could despawn the second gate is clear, no need for them when its clear. 150 Concord sounds like some of them not working and new ships spawned in but thats a digression BrRAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIiiiiiiNNNNNNZzzzzzzzzzzz
Kai DeathCutter	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:53:00 - [53] the thing I really miss about those days was when u went into a new region u hadn't bm'd yet, it was scary and u were at a massive disadvantage. if you were planning a campaign, first step was to get someone in to bm the main routes or u wouldnt stand a chance against the locals. once bm trading hit bigtime, yh, might aswell bring in wtz. Still think they should've used a more complex solution based on region/constellation maps that would be created by mapping the area. They could be bought/sold but not copied, maybe with a quality that would degrade over time if not used etc etc
Spurty Caldari Technologic Dance	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:02:00 - [54] Originally by: Kai DeathCutter the thing I really miss about those days was when u went into a new region u hadn't bm'd yet, it was scary and u were at a massive disadvantage. if you were planning a campaign, first step was to get someone in to bm the main routes or u wouldnt stand a chance against the locals. now this is why we had ships doing crazy speeds, you really needed them. I remember the relief and lag free playing the day Bookmarks got deleted and wtz arrived. I don't want that crazy load back, but would love to know I can get out to 0.0 solo to help if needed without being choked the first jump to 0.4 by a HIC and friends (motherships sitting on Nonni/Aunenen gate smartbombing 23/7?) BrRAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIiiiiiiNNNNNNZzzzzzzzzzzz
Ocih Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:09:00 - [55] Originally by: Spurty >.< could despawn the second gate is clear, no need for them when its clear. 150 Concord sounds like some of them not working and new ships spawned in but thats a digression I think they depawn at down time and the thing that makes it silly is, if you suicide a gate and 20 Concord show up, the next guy to suicide the gate gets ignored by the concord that are there. He gets his own 20 and so on and so on. With spawns on any gate based on player interaction, they accumulate. That's the way is seems to work right now. Anyone who uses 0.0 alot knows, WTZ isn't accurate anyway. You never WTZ at an outpost. Usually 1800 m or so. Unless you see Docking or warping or jumping over your HUD, it isn't happening. No matter what is popping up on your screen. I still bookmark systems I use alot. One at around 280 km from the base or gate, one sitting on top of the base. This allows for a HIC bubble check and a true 0 dock or jump point.
Meiers	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:14:00 - [56] EVE used to be hardcore, with hardcore players excellent at adapting. Now most there is, is whining. Maybe that killed the game :)
Spurty Caldari Technologic Dance	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:15:00 - [57] Originally by: Meiers EVE used to be hardcore, with hardcore players excellent at adapting. Now most there is, is whining. Maybe that killed the game :) how dare you bring logic and observation into an irrational whine about 'how we play today' ;0 BrRAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIiiiiiiNNNNNNZzzzzzzzzzzz
Eva midgard Caldari the undivided Negative Ten.	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:20:00 - [58] Originally by: Joe Only thing that ruins PVP is FOTM sheep combined with forum whiners. Prepare for Falcon nurf, then ishtar nerf, then maybe a nice rupture nurf. Bland pvp without variety is the only inevitable outcome of FOTM sheep combined with forum whiners. ^^^THIS THIS THIS YES YES YES The only true and decent comment in this thread. I love the hate gatecampers ones what they don't realise that ganking a ratting bs with 10 hacs is no different. And 200 v 200 fights are just, shoot primary, shoot secondry boring lagfest crap. If you want real pvp as you call it, convo 2bad4ux2 he will happily 1v1 you he will even say gf after he kills you, . . RIVUR'TAMS alt
Ocih Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:20:00 - [59] Originally by: Meiers EVE used to be hardcore, with hardcore players excellent at adapting. Now most there is, is whining. Maybe that killed the game :) There is truth to this. Alot of nerfs came about all wrong but 'Adaptation' in EvE is get a bigger bat. They have 10 Titans, we get 12. They have 500 caps, we get 600. They brought 30 pilots to bust up our roaming gang, we come back with 50. If there was no 'whining' there would be no need for 'Adaptation'. You could just keep building a bigger and bigger bat. It's a limit to video gaming. Any video game. FF7? Play it long enough, grind the sub long enough, cloud had 255 everything and the sea monster was just in the way.
David Grogan Gallente The Motley Crew	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:21:00 - [60] Originally by: Khemul Zula Originally by: Davien Thule Warp to 0. For the rest of you care bears it was your finest moment in this game. To all of you newbies who're just beginning I don't expect you to understand. /signed PVP no longer exists in EVE because of this. warp to 0 still doesnt counter large smart bombs.... shuttles / noobs / t1 frigates all tend to die from these low sec gate campers and their smart bombing gates if my message has spelling errors its cos i fail at typing properly :P
Sashman Cole	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:25:00 - [61] Originally by: Davien Thule Warp to 0. For the rest of you care bears it was your finest moment in this game. To all of you newbies who're just beginning I don't expect you to understand. The finest moment in this game is the fact that ever more people play it, which means more interaction, more possibilities and a bigger market. With any expansion in player numbers attitudes change as well and there's no going back from that. I happen to think a bigger, busier Eve is a far nicer place to play in, even if the odd compromise gets made along the way. When I started back in 2004 large swathes of the Eve were still empty, the market (in large chunks of Eve) was in the tank, tech 2 cost a bazillion isk and jumping 18 systems to get something to market was a pain in the a**. Gatecamping, suicide ganking, perma-deccing alliances, serial war dec'cing and indeed the three ring circus that is grief play isn't and never will be PvP in any game and the majority of the player base saw through the excuses and rightly condemned it. Can you move onto something constructive? Hugs and Kisses from a carebear.
Clementina Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:28:00 - [62] Look, before warp to zero, there were instas. People would have 1000+ bookmarks, which, when they warped to 15, would land them right on the gate. Warp to zero changed nothing but the amount of bookmark lag the game generated. I made Instas. but the Instas I made, allowed me to evade gate camps, travel quickly through 0.0, and even put a few people on a killboard.
Drykor Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:31:00 - [63] So you're killing a few less noobs that didn't have insta's now. I don't see the big issue here. The way it is now you can still catch most cruisers and everything above with a semi-decent gatecamp.
Kaar coracao ardente	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:33:00 - [64] No actually it was jump bridges. ---
Ocih Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:33:00 - [65] Originally by: Joe Only thing that ruins PVP is FOTM sheep combined with forum whiners. Prepare for Falcon nurf, then ishtar nerf, then maybe a nice rupture nurf. Bland pvp without variety is the only inevitable outcome of FOTM sheep combined with forum whiners. Variety was lost to time. Everyone knows the Falcon is the best Jam boat out there. No need to use any other jam boat. Use the falcon. The learning curve doesn't apply to most of EvE. We know what to use for every job and we know not to use other ships to replace those that were made to do specific things. You can't convince me to take my Geddon out to engage the 6 AF's. I know better. I agree, there is going to be a Falcon nerf. It's unfortunate. I can't fly a falcon. On any of my chars. They freak me out though. I'm not stupid enough to try and engage a 2 Falcon roaming gang but it's an element that I appreciate in EvE. Knowing I can get my ass kicked by one ship. I'm sure there is a guy out there in some ship that doesn't want to see me in an Abaddon or you in a Raven. It's all great but it got old as we did. I don't know what the answer is.. I do know it's becoming a problem. Eve is built on Vets. They will leave as the game loses that element of unknowing.
Eva midgard Caldari the undivided Negative Ten.	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:49:00 - [66] Originally by: Ocih Originally by: Joe Only thing that ruins PVP is FOTM sheep combined with forum whiners. Prepare for Falcon nurf, then ishtar nerf, then maybe a nice rupture nurf. Bland pvp without variety is the only inevitable outcome of FOTM sheep combined with forum whiners. Variety was lost to time. Everyone knows the Falcon is the best Jam boat out there. No need to use any other jam boat. Use the falcon. The learning curve doesn't apply to most of EvE. We know what to use for every job and we know not to use other ships to replace those that were made to do specific things. You can't convince me to take my Geddon out to engage the 6 AF's. I know better. I agree, there is going to be a Falcon nerf. It's unfortunate. I can't fly a falcon. On any of my chars. They freak me out though. I'm not stupid enough to try and engage a 2 Falcon roaming gang but it's an element that I appreciate in EvE. Knowing I can get my ass kicked by one ship. I'm sure there is a guy out there in some ship that doesn't want to see me in an Abaddon or you in a Raven. It's all great but it got old as we did. I don't know what the answer is.. I do know it's becoming a problem. Eve is built on Vets. They will leave as the game loses that element of unknowing. I have been here for almost 5 years and anyone else who has been here that long knows that that some patches are good some are bad i just worry that they will go to far with the nerfing and kill this game i love so much I don't fly a falcon atm but i don't think they should be nerfed i think eccm should be boosted RIVUR'TAMS alt
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:58:00 - [67] Originally by: Drykor So you're killing a few less noobs that didn't have insta's now. I don't see the big issue here. The way it is now you can still catch most cruisers and everything above with a semi-decent gatecamp. Probably 'killing a few noobs' is what the OP thinks PvP is about.
Joe Umbra Legion Shadow Empire.	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:04:00 - [68] The piont I made has nothing todo with wether or not falcons are balanced, thats simply what all the FOTM Sheep are jumping in atm, and so the Forum 'warriors' have focused their whines there, after that is Ishtars, then Ruptures. I can't even begin to link every FOTM -> Nerf cycle over the last 6 years; Forum posts have a charatcer limit Bland PVP, your Fate for having no imagination.
JoeT Amarr Short Attention Span	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:23:00 - [69] all it really changed to was catching people on the other sdie, of course, for any good loot you had to do that before wtz, since anyone with anything of vaule normally had bms to warp to 0. The bump of agilty up kinda ruined catching ppl on the other side. It made it alot more difficult to pop your enemies.
Par'Gellen Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:24:00 - [70] Originally by: Apoctasy Gatecamping isn't pvp. This!
Lt Angus Caldari End Game. The Crimson Federation	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:40:00 - [71] Originally by: Par'Gellen Originally by: Apoctasy Gatecamping isn't pvp. This! ITT lots of people who dont even know what pvp stands for Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers
Takeshi Yamato	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:44:00 - [72] We could use a "Warp Tunnel Breacher" module that simply makes people come out of warp 15 km earlier than normal but doesnt stop warping or do anything else.
Rawr Cristina Caldari Naqam Exalted.	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:47:00 - [73] Not 'PvP' but Piracy took a huge hit with WTZ, and Low-sec became a joke. I hated the change Only time I been caught since then in low-sec was to Smartbombing Battleships It's nice that my freighter dosen't take 5 mins per gate though... - Infectious -
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:07:00 - [74] Originally by: Ticondrius Edited by: Ticondrius on 27/01/2009 04:07:55 Before instas trading got popular, I used to make my own. Got really good at it. Guess what? Instas ruined your Gate Camping fun LONG before WT0 ever landed. All you got to kill then were autopiloting idiots and noobs. I remember CLEARLY gate campers begging for CCP to make bookmarks impossible to make within the same grid as a gate, because it made it so hard to engage targets. qft ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:11:00 - [75] Originally by: Davien Thule Originally by: Ocih I learned some of my most valuable lessons setting up bookmark runs. One as pointed out, gate camping is not PvP. Using noob alts to make the 30 km run to set up a gate BM, I got to see just how spaced out these people are. A good many times, they would pop the same Velator 50, 60 times knowing it was an Alpha clone and with a local respawn. Like mindless animals, they would warp in and pop the Velator over and over. It was really rather tragic to watch. Then they would get ****ed at me and smack in local because I kept coming back and 'made' them kill me, over and over like mindless animals.. So you're speaking for yourself or are you speaking out of your ass? I'm guessing Ocih is one of those ppl who thinks minerals he mines himself are free. ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Camilo Cienfuegos Earned In Blood	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:47:00 - [76] The reason instas were great compared to WTZ was from time to time, usually when you were running in an indy from an inty gang, you'd find out you had a bat bookmark... The worst I've seen WTZ do is land you 500m from jump range. It needs to be more of a "warp to just about zero", with the possibility of landing as much as 5km out, though mostly it'll get you right on top. Risk and all that jazz, y'know? One client: Three Screens!
Liz Laser	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:53:00 - [77] PvP is alive and well. Ganking, on the other hand... no one will miss it. PvP is out there, baby. And not that hard to find. I'm a miner/hauler and our fleet got bounced in low sec on Saturday. Everyone that WANTED combat got it. Because we outnumbered the pirates, the miners and haulers were ignored. My only regret is that because we STARTED the fight (hey man, don't even look at our rocks) the miners and haulers couldn't dock to grab warships too. --- SAK: The Industrial Revolution has BEGUN!
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance OWN Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:57:00 - [78] Originally by: Jukhta Mein Gate camping is not PVP. This. Its boring for both sides until: 1) Another gang tries to break the gatecamp 2) One of the poor sods who is gonna die tries to take you with him.
Tellenta Gallente Invicta. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:03:00 - [79] Why is all the PvP is dead topics about gate camping, and functions that effect said gate camping. If people would get the heck away from stations and gate camping there just might be more pvp for all. However risk mitigation for the gate camper, station tanker seems to outweigh actually engaging in said PvP. PvP is alive and well, there would be more of it but to many people seem to think killing haulers is pvp. Also gate camping is more boring than mining seriously why do people do this.
Liz Laser	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:11:00 - [80] Originally by: Tellenta Also gate camping is more boring than mining seriously why do people do this. I can only offer one reasonable explanation. Someone is assigned to monitor a gate while his fleetmates engage in another operation. At that point, if he can tank the sentry guns, he might as well scan everything that passes by. But I doubt that 95% of gatecamping has anything to do with reasonable behavior.
ceaon Gallente Porandor	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:27:00 - [81] ofc gate camp is not pvp is called gate camp so is gate camp geez the thing is WTZ made a huge hole in this "pvp world" and this hole is still there(some of you can say the hole is bigger) how you deal whit it ? how you fill this hole ? you can argue all the damn day about things but the fact is small gang pvp and solo pvp are death . . .
5pinDizzy	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:38:00 - [82] When warp to zero wasn't around, gates could be bookmarked to warp onto at zero annyway. So what the hell is the OP's point exactly? Did he prefer it when only he and his friends were exploiting this loophole and killing all the unwary fodder?
Ratchman	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:38:00 - [83] I don't know why the OP is complaining. WTZ was possible with bookmarks before, and I could always avoid gatecamps in places that I had already visited. This just gives good pirates a bad name, as a good pirate can hunt you down. I am not impressed when my single ship is destroyed by a gatecamp of 5-10 ships, but I AM impressed by someone who can hunt me down despite all my evasion tactics. A hard earned win is all the more satisfying, too. What the OP wants is to get easy kills with minimal effort. CCP have taken the right path with this. it has become easier to avoid gatecamps, due to alignment and speed changes, but this helps entice people out into lowsec and nullsec, where they would have been too wary of gatecamping before. And more people in those areas means more potential targets. Yes, it may be difficult to nail one, but if it is too easy to get kills, then why are you even playing? Where is the challenge? As with the Falcons, I don't think they should be diminished in their role, but they do need to be on a level setting to their contemporaries, like the Arazu. The fact that the massive majority of Force Recons are Falcons does suggest an unbalanced ship, so they need to be brought in line. As someone else stated, it would also be useful to boost ECCM as well. This is why I refer to these changes as 'balancing', rather than 'nerfs'. When something unbalances the game and becomes too powerful in it's role, it becomes detrimental to the game because everyone starts using exactly the same tactics. If they are balanced, you can have ECM heavy fleets meeting Tracking Disruptor fleets, leading to more 'thrust and parry' type combat, and much more unpredictable encounters. At the moment, everyone forms a fleet with the express purpose of taking out the Falcons first. This just becomes a 'gunslinging match' rather than debating what kind of electronic warfare to use, and run the risk of being caught out if specialising too much in one discipline.
Zyck KDS Navy	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:53:00 - [84] Weird, I'm a PvPer and EvE Online isn't ruined for me. Misleading title tbh. Oh, and if you consider gatecamping to be PvP, you're not much above the average carebear. -Zyck
Synex Gallente Oursulaert Industries	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:20:00 - [85] WT0 makes my Freighter a LOT better.
Ana Vyr Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:41:00 - [86] I would imagine that a lot of real PvP players must hate gate campers. All gate camping does is totally discourage carebear players from ever bothering to even try it out. Worked on me. I figure I'll eventually get around to it after I can afford to lose a lot of ships and get enough skills built up to the point where I can last perhaps more than 10 seconds in PvP. The classic thing is that the PvP players will tell you: "dude, we need newb pilots to run tackle ships and so on...get out here and get involved." That begins to sounds like just another scam after you lose enough ships on gates into lowsec. Ah well, I'll be skilled into a covert ops in a couple more weeks, perhaps then I can finaly go see the sights in lowsec/nullsec.
Il Morte	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:00:00 - [87] What ruined pvp is all the whining carebears. That is what ruined it. This ship is too powerful, this ship is too fast, this ship won't let me target lock. I get camped, I attacked them in thier system so now they blobbed me, they can see me on local and no I am gonna kill them, my history shows how old I am, wha wha wha. next thing you will say what is killing pvp is blue standings. You should not be able to see if someone is an ally or mate you should just know that and if you dont kil them.
Thargat Caldari North Star Networks Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:11:00 - [88] WTZ didn't break eve. Tho it did make things alot more boring. The universe got ALOT smaller, blobs got faster (and thus more common) and eve got alot safer (wich is a bad thing). It lessened the advantage for systems local inhabitants even though instas was a pain in themselves. Instas were a poor excuse to enforce WTZ. Increasing the warpscattering from 2 (or is it 4?) to 15km would fix both issues at once (though some kind of special treatment would be needed for stations to prevent horrible bumps). Warpscattering should be 20km by default (on all axis) and could be lessened by skills and gangbonuses. Very large fleets should increase the scattering (to discourage too large blobs) and so forth. /for the lazy, WTZ is a bad thing mmkay? There's only one sig that matters... and that's Radius.
Vall Kor Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:16:00 - [89] I really wish CCP would increase the damage on gate/station guns so if would be impossible to tank them. That'll fix those campers
Shirley Serious Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:26:00 - [90] Originally by: Thargat Warpscattering should be 20km by default (on all axis) and could be lessened by skills and gangbonuses. Careful. A skill like that becomes an essential skill for all players, and only serves as a time-sink, because having it at IV is not good enough, because you miss the gate, aren't close enough to tackle, etc. slowing up your gang's travel and effectiveness. Yes. Yes, I am.
Belmarduk Amarr M.A.R.S. Enterprises	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:30:00 - [91] Originally by: Apoctasy Gatecamping isn't pvp. This Mainchar:
Johnny Gurkha Death Cult Covenant	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:48:00 - [92] PVP isn't ruined but it's getting harder to find non-bait, non-wtfblob, non-falcon-alt willing participants... 90% of PVP'ers these days make eunuch's look well-endowed
Faife Federation of Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:48:00 - [93] confirming that low sec ganks are the only true pvp for elite super duper players. oh, and that warp to 0 was the end of the world because absolutely no one had instas.
Feilamya Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:53:00 - [94] Last time I checked, EVE Online was not ruined. What happened while I was at work today?
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:18:00 - [95] Edited by: James Lyrus on 27/01/2009 18:21:51 Originally by: Dirk Magnum Other than gatecampers, who here who was actually around for WT15 liked WT15? Those days were awful. I'm glad autopilot has stayed at WT15, but manual flying with that as the closest jump setting was just tedious and lame. Yeah, I did actually. And this was as a non-PVPer at the time. I liked EVE being big, I liked travelling taking time. I liked the fact that there were systems other than Jita in the forge region where you could buy stuff. Instas ... they were the start of the spoil for me - ended up forced into them, because everyone else was, but still remember that EVE was a better game before travel was so easy. Remember kiddies - in a game, distance is irrelevant. It's _always_ about _time_. Time spent travelling hasn't changed noticably, it's just now you fly 10 jumps to jita, instead of 3 jumps to the constellation trade hub. Since then, I've started to PvP more, and still think the game would be better without it. I like there being a large differentiator on ship travel times - a BS warping to zero isn't far behind a frigate, but when both are warping to 15, the difference between the two is very notable. Meh, whatever. This is an argument I won't win, because the 'average' is going to be too focussed on _their_ convenience, and what actually makes a game _good_ (not easy, that's not the same thing)
Nathan Baxter Department X	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:29:00 - [96] Edited by: Nathan Baxter on 27/01/2009 18:29:32 bah wrong thread sorry
Gaia Thorn Pax Minor Asylum	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:50:00 - [97] What Killed PVP for me was the damn 50% HP Buff and the nerf of sniper ammo.. Combine that 50% buff with rigs and implants u need a small fleet to kill something before it can run away.
Dirtball PinK Tac0 ResearcH	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:55:00 - [98] I starting flying vagas so that I could autopliot then hit the mwd and not use my 6,000 bookmarks.
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:58:00 - [99] Originally by: Davien Thule Warp to 0. For the rest of you care bears it was your finest moment in this game. To all of you newbies who're just beginning I don't expect you to understand. Davien Thule - born 2008:12:14 EVE Search results - 1 thread (this one). Indeed the OP is clearly a man we can trust to be expertly knowledged in all things PVP. C.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.27 19:05:00 - [100] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 27/01/2009 19:04:57 Originally by: Davien Thule Warp to 0. For the rest of you care bears it was your finest moment in this game. To all of you newbies who're just beginning I don't expect you to understand. You know what ruined your conception of pvp (which is pking noobs) ? Warp to 0.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.27 19:09:00 - [101] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Other than gatecampers, who here who was actually around for WT15 liked WT15? Those days were awful. I'm glad autopilot has stayed at WT15, but manual flying with that as the closest jump setting was just tedious and lame. Before I was against, talk to ppl, see it didn't changed anything beside me stoping copy regionnal bms then agree it was good. Fetchez la vache !
Thargat Caldari North Star Networks Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.27 19:15:00 - [102] Originally by: Shirley Serious Originally by: Thargat Warpscattering should be 20km by default (on all axis) and could be lessened by skills and gangbonuses. Careful. A skill like that becomes an essential skill for all players, and only serves as a time-sink, because having it at IV is not good enough, because you miss the gate, aren't close enough to tackle, etc. slowing up your gang's travel and effectiveness. Not really. About as essential as the frieghter skills at higher levels. Or jump fuel conservation... and the list goes on. There's only one sig that matters... and that's Radius.
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers	Posted - 2009.01.27 20:20:00 - [103] Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 27/01/2009 20:23:40 Originally by: Thargat Originally by: Shirley Serious Originally by: Thargat Warpscattering should be 20km by default (on all axis) and could be lessened by skills and gangbonuses. Careful. A skill like that becomes an essential skill for all players, and only serves as a time-sink, because having it at IV is not good enough, because you miss the gate, aren't close enough to tackle, etc. slowing up your gang's travel and effectiveness. Not really. About as essential as the frieghter skills at higher levels. Or jump fuel conservation... and the list goes on. I agree with this, I believe, untrained your accuracy should be 20k from gate in any direction 80% of the time, 20% of the time you land randomly between 20k and 1k from the gate. Trained to lvl 5, you should land 2k from the gate in any direction 80% of the time, 20% of the time you land randomly between 8k and 1k from the gate.
Schalac Caldari Apocalypse Reign	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:11:00 - [104] Originally by: Davien Thule Warp to 0. For the rest of you care bears it was your finest moment in this game. To all of you newbies who're just beginning I don't expect you to understand. How so? I already had hundreds of WTZ book marks before WTZ was even introduced. Plenty of other people did as well and wasn't that the reason CCP decided to add WTZ because so many BMs were slowing down the system?
bff Jill	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:35:00 - [105] make it so you jump gate to system and not gate to gate. When you jump into a system you appear 'somewhere' in that system. This shifts things so that pvp takes place in systems and not in-transit. It removes things like jump in loading lag from 50billion drones, lets smart people scan a gate before they jump too it. It allows for more range variation because you can chose how far/close to the gate you jump in at, letting you have a bit more control (if you know where the gate campers are likely to be) how you engage. Because with warp to zero this would make any kind of gate camping ever pointless (because they only people you can 'camp' are people approaching the gate, not who have just jumped through), all gates have a 10km warp bubble around them (even in high sec=P). With webs nerfed now its still possible to 'run' a camp with that sort of distance, larger slower ships need to fight through. Any empire-space gate that gets 'action' within this 10km radius is responded to by empire navies (they are protecting their trade routs). A weak response at first, but major camps with lots of stuff going on can build up a large presence. This not only provides alternative pve content for 'pirates' while they wait for players to fight with, but it also ensures that massive permanent gate camps are not likely, and the most popular/main trade routs are fairly well protected unless a decent effort to tank the guns and empire navy ships (that will continue to build up even further as you continue to kill people). There are also patrolling gangs of empire navy that go around on predetermined patrols. While i like warp to zero, i always did use to like approaching gates. Doing it this way you cant make instas to get around the warp in distance limit, but we still get to keep the warp to zero functionality for other things, which is nice. I think standard gate camp/farms are kind of lame, but i also think travel in eve should be made slower again (remember when 20 jumps actually took a while?), and more time should be spent out of warp/jumping than there is currently. And i always found it strange that empire factions would not try to secure some of their trade routs in low sec, it is still their space after all, its just 'the bad side of town'. So my solution could enhance pvp for everyone, it could make popular routs relatively 'safe' from minor camps, meaning traders and such could start going into low sec somewhat securely, it would also let pirates poke around and try to find places that are somewhat safe for THEM to pirate people, a gate with little/no defense and no scheduled patrols coming in for a while. Anyone risking it could find themselves jumped and webbed a few times unable to mwd to the gate/unable to warp out ^_^ Yet other people could play bait when they know a patrol is coming soon (because they saw it in the last system), and jump in and try to get people to attack them so the navy pwnzors the attackers on the other side a few seconds later. They then get loot and can salvage or whatever. Makes the game more dynamic.
Thargat Caldari North Star Networks Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:40:00 - [106] Originally by: bff Jill Compressed quote for navigators liking That was eve a couple of years ago. I can't be arsed to go into the details why it changed, but it was really a big lottery when jumping into an enemy fleet. There's only one sig that matters... and that's Radius.
Davien Thule	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:52:00 - [107] Originally by: Liz Laser PvP is alive and well. Ganking, on the other hand... no one will miss it. PvP is out there, baby. And not that hard to find. I'm a miner/hauler and our fleet got bounced in low sec on Saturday. Everyone that WANTED combat got it. Because we outnumbered the pirates, the miners and haulers were ignored. My only regret is that because we STARTED the fight (hey man, don't even look at our rocks) the miners and haulers couldn't dock to grab warships too. --- SAK: The Industrial Revolution has BEGUN! Sure, if you count PvP to be 10+ ships to take out single frigates or cruisers. Or better yet, my friend and his buddy took two inties out to 0.0 and in the end had 2 capital ships + support trying to hunt them. PvP, to you care bears, is all about gank squads.
Davien Thule	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:59:00 - [108] Originally by: Sashman Cole Originally by: Davien Thule Warp to 0. For the rest of you care bears it was your finest moment in this game. To all of you newbies who're just beginning I don't expect you to understand. The finest moment in this game is the fact that ever more people play it, which means more interaction, more possibilities and a bigger market. With any expansion in player numbers attitudes change as well and there's no going back from that. I happen to think a bigger, busier Eve is a far nicer place to play in, even if the odd compromise gets made along the way. When I started back in 2004 large swathes of the Eve were still empty, the market (in large chunks of Eve) was in the tank, tech 2 cost a bazillion isk and jumping 18 systems to get something to market was a pain in the a*. Gatecamping, suicide ganking, perma-deccing alliances, serial war dec'cing and indeed the three ring circus that is grief play isn't and never will be PvP in any game and the majority of the player base saw through the excuses and rightly condemned it. Can you move onto something constructive? Hugs and Kisses from a carebear. So basically you're telling me that you were afraid of PvP and you wanted an absolutely risk-free gaming experience? Eve was all about risk, and that's what made it the best PvP game available out there. It was all about the risk.* Me and my old corp mate, in the past, both agreed that no other game compared because of the risk involved, and that it gave a mild to huge rush because you don't know how the fight was going to turn out. We both loved solo hunting, 1v2+'ing others, etc.
Davien Thule	Posted - 2009.01.30 02:26:00 - [109] Carebears.
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2009.01.30 02:41:00 - [110] Edited by: Haradgrim on 30/01/2009 02:41:58 I saw this thread yesterday and I've been thinking about it since; the OP is right. While the mechanics left something to be desired; the old system was better than the new. It is my strong belief that escape is currently too easy in this game; while I don't really support going back to the old system in it's entirety, it would be cool if there was a hybrid system. i.e. I don't have a problem with warping to zero on stations, poses, bookmarks, or gang mates. For all other destinations (gates and celestial objects) I would suggest the idea of only being able to wtz once you had already been there. This would create a sort of "home field advantage" as well as give pilots that have spent time fighting/living in a certain area in the past an advantage due to knowing "the lay of the land." Being realistic; I don't think WTZ in it's present form will change, but I do support the idea of creating/changing mechanics so that escape is not quite as easy... -- Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donæt forget the reach-around.
mishkof Caldari Dirty Denizens	Posted - 2009.01.30 04:29:00 - [111] Meh, all WTZ did was eliminate the mind numbing task of copying bookmarks for alts and corpies. Who needed that, seriously. I wouldnt venture anywhere for PVP if I didnt have the bookmarks for the entire region. So in that sense it limited my personal game. The disadvantage was just to great. There were times where I turned down PVP ops because I had to copy bookmarks for 45 minutes, and instead of doing either I logged off. There are hictors now, so I see that as a balancing factor for low-sec. I dont know if people dont use them, or if they are to lazy to, but that seems to clear up any problems from my perspective.
Battlecheese Caldari SiN. Corp Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.01.30 05:07:00 - [112] Edited by: Battlecheese on 30/01/2009 05:12:30 Originally by: Christari Zuborov I agree with this, I believe, untrained your accuracy should be 20k from gate in any direction 80% of the time, 20% of the time you land randomly between 20k and 1k from the gate. Trained to lvl 5, you should land 2k from the gate in any direction 80% of the time, 20% of the time you land randomly between 8k and 1k from the gate. I'm not a fan I'm afraid. I think people would generally prefer consistant behavior, especially with a mechanic which has so much impact on your ability to stay alive. I'd rather no skill, just a arrival on a random 15km sphere of any bookmark. (including the builtin ones for gates,stations etc). Edit: So, much like the pre-warpToZero behavior, but reducing the precision of bookmarks.
Mei Ree	Posted - 2009.01.30 05:31:00 - [113] What I learned in this thread: Gatecampers don't know about warp disruption bubbles, insta/wtz bookmarks, or picking the right gate to camp.
Atsuko Yamamoto Caldari The Nietzian Way	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:44:00 - [114] Originally by: Haradgrim Being realistic; I don't think WTZ in it's present form will change, but I do support the idea of creating/changing mechanics so that escape is not quite as easy... If anything about WTZ gets repealed we'll have people setting insta's again and going back to the same technical problems for CCP's servers. The only thing I can think of that could delay someone going through a gate that was not aggression oriented is a warp engine cool-off or something like that. But how do you justify putting a delay in? In a way the WTZ has led to gate campers being able to surprise a target on the far side of the gate and the target being forced to attack or attempt to flee. Sure if you don't have a tackler and they're in a shuttle/frigate or something else fast they get away, but, can't win them all right? So the question is how do you rework a solution that was done for a technical problem and not for gameplay? ____________________________________ "MONKEY!!"-Gir
Alexi Borizkova Caldari New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2009.01.30 10:14:00 - [115] Back in the day we had a guy in corp whose "thing" was copying bookmarks. That's what he did, damn near all day he was logged on. He'd fill cargo cans with a copy of our regional bookmarks, for distribution to new guys. He was good at it, and wicked fast, and did a great job for the corp. That's right, he hit copy, then paste, and it helped us stay alive. Tell me that's a good system. Everyone was gonna use em anyway, might as well make it a feature. But, then as now, the safest way to travel is with a rookie (or alt, I guess, but I hate alts) in a shuttle as vanguard (or in the way back, before instalocking hictors, a guy in a 'ceptor). If he screams on teamspeak, you don't go through that gate, you turn around, or you leave, or you dock, cloak, whatever. Call it cowardly, but jumping ten into twenty or thirty isn't glorious, it's usually suicide from load times alone.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.30 10:32:00 - [116] wormholes will make pvp more fluid and break up the boring bits. some hardcore pvpers may find a challange in the new sleepers or have to adapt to a combination of quick pvp but some npc work
Copine Callmeknau North Central Positronics LTD	Posted - 2009.01.30 11:15:00 - [117] pffft. wtz didn't change much, anyone worth killing had instas. The HP boosts in rev, now they killed PvP. Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3
cpt Mark	Posted - 2009.01.30 11:19:00 - [118] If there wasn't warp to 0. I don't think anyone would send valuable cargo through dangerous areas. So actually you will have less targets to shoot at. Also, warp to 0 benefits Pvp'ers who maybe need to log off and leave their fleet to somewhere safe. It also saves an enormous amount of time. Ever tried jumping 10 gates on Auto-pilot? It will take you about 4 times longer than doing it yourself.
Taylor timenenzi	Posted - 2009.01.30 12:29:00 - [119] Originally by: Il Morte What ruined pvp is all the whining carebears. That is what ruined it. This ship is too powerful, this ship is too fast, this ship won't let me target lock. I get camped, I attacked them in thier system so now they blobbed me, they can see me on local and no I am gonna kill them, my history shows how old I am, wha wha wha. next thing you will say what is killing pvp is blue standings. You should not be able to see if someone is an ally or mate you should just know that and if you dont kil them. Ya because those people that never PvP are the ones crying about PvP ships they never see or fight? Ya makes sense to me. Actualy its you gankbears. I call em ganktards but hey whatever. Its that type that killed a lot. The type that is only looking for the easy kill, only wants to find a hauler, noob, or PvE fitted ship. You know those people that cant fight back and provide easy kills to pad their killboard. These tards fill low sec, are at every singal gate leaving safe space and are foaming at the mouth. Then if someone gets away they scream to high heaven how its not fair that someone actualy got away. They then blame those sissys in high sec that they are making money with no risk. Well so can they in their own way. Been there done that I felt dirty sitting staring at a gate for hours on end. I would rather stare at a asteroid while flying a ibis and mining with a ****ty civi miner. I would at least have to do something every few minutes.
Rennion	Posted - 2009.01.30 12:48:00 - [120] Edited by: Rennion on 30/01/2009 12:49:08 Sorry but warp to zero does not only effect gatecamping... It effects all sorts from your likelyhood of bumping into another solo pilot, to your ability to warp into a fight and your ability to warp out of a fight (then instajump and be two systems away in seconds..) etc etc etc... Combine warp to zero with the speed nerfs and agility/align time boosts and GG matey, bring a blob or spend your time chasing shadows. Ever since WTZ it has become easier and easier to avoid a fight, how can anyone playing a pvp game think this is a good thing? In my ideal world we would go back to warp to 15km and it would be made immpossible to make a BM within 150km of a warpable object. Then scan res vs align time would be re-evaluated and I would need a new pair of pants.
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2009.01.30 21:10:00 - [121] Originally by: Copine Callmeknau pffft. wtz didn't change much, anyone worth killing had instas. The HP boosts in rev, now they killed PvP. But when they roamed into your space it got interesting.... However, you are right about the HP buff..... though I don't think reducing ship HP back to what it was will do much to fix PVP right now.... -- Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donæt forget the reach-around.
Alora Venoda GalTech Whiskey Creek Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.30 21:17:00 - [122] Originally by: Ticondrius Edited by: Ticondrius on 27/01/2009 04:07:55 Before instas trading got popular, I used to make my own. Got really good at it. Guess what? Instas ruined your Gate Camping fun LONG before WT0 ever landed. All you got to kill then were autopiloting idiots and noobs. I remember CLEARLY gate campers begging for CCP to make bookmarks impossible to make within the same grid as a gate, because it made it so hard to engage targets. this... ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
Shirley Estyre	Posted - 2009.01.31 01:00:00 - [123] As you don't get rid off carebears you won't get rid off people looking for risk free ganking either.
OffBeaT Caldari KaMiKaZes	Posted - 2009.01.31 01:11:00 - [124] getting gate locked all the time in 00 space.. just cant move around any more with probs/bubbles everywhere.. no mods to counter them so you can move around without being made.. they still have system chat as well. real pussie bull**** to with scanning and probs these days.. they should only have station chat.
Bohoba Caldari HolyKnights	Posted - 2009.01.31 03:08:00 - [125] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Other than gatecampers, who here who was actually around for WT15 liked WT15? Those days were awful. I'm glad autopilot has stayed at WT15, but manual flying with that as the closest jump setting was just tedious and lame. what?? lots of us been here for a while man I had BM's of all the regions glad to get rid of those :) ....................... 10.5 hours a day do you have what it takes ?
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises	Posted - 2009.01.31 03:29:00 - [126] Edited by: HankMurphy on 31/01/2009 03:30:56 the hp buff nos changes speed changes warp to zero all the things they got rid of that made solo pvp possible. they listened to people that cried 'over powered' when they didn't realize one fundamental truth: whatever one man can do, any other one man can do and consequently any 2 men can counter. the only one of the above i can agree with somewhat was warp to zero and that was for the alleged BM/performance argument (though really, it would have been much better for them to find a server side solution to this rather than change the way the game is played) for those that weren't there eve was so much more different of a game. eve still is different but i think we have limited ourselves too much. it could be just personal nostalgia that i'll hold those days far above any in the future but i truly believe we were better off the was the game was then than we are now.
Violet Serena	Posted - 2009.01.31 15:10:00 - [127] 1. How do I UN-report someone? I "reported" the OP thinking I was clicking on "reply". Whatever! Originally by: Davien Thule Warp to 0. For the rest of you care bears it was your finest moment in this game. To all of you newbies who're just beginning I don't expect you to understand. Dude, I'm sorry that you now have to have a few friends to camp both sides of the gate at the same time. But just know the game remains pretty stupid in that people set up no-warpee-you bubbles at exatly 100km away from the gate, making "warp to x" pretty much useless, too. And if nothing else, a lack of "warp to 0" should, properly speaking, be seen as a crippling of your ship's ability for the purpose of giving gate campers a shot. Me love big, 2-sided gate camping, blockade running, 0.0 nuttiness. Me not like lame camping. Never did, going back to the old Quake days when people camped the rocket launcher or spawn points.
Xiaodown coracao ardente	Posted - 2009.01.31 15:46:00 - [128] Originally by: Khlitouris RegusII Originally by: Dirk Magnum Other than gatecampers, who here who was actually around for WT15 liked WT15? Those days were awful. I'm glad autopilot has stayed at WT15, but manual flying with that as the closest jump setting was just tedious and lame. Me and wt15 was great actually gave the eve universe a sense of scale not like now when it takes 15 mins to go from end of eve to the other. Imma /signing this. Eve is too small; no one travels anymore. Also, in 0.0, instas gave you a sense of ownership. Like "Well, they could invade this region, but they're all going to have to have bookmarks" kind of thing.
Davien Thule	Posted - 2009.02.03 01:05:00 - [129] Originally by: mishkof Meh, all WTZ did was eliminate the mind numbing task of copying bookmarks for alts and corpies. Who needed that, seriously. I wouldnt venture anywhere for PVP if I didnt have the bookmarks for the entire region. So in that sense it limited my personal game. The disadvantage was just to great. There were times where I turned down PVP ops because I had to copy bookmarks for 45 minutes, and instead of doing either I logged off. There are hictors now, so I see that as a balancing factor for low-sec. I dont know if people dont use them, or if they are to lazy to, but that seems to clear up any problems from my perspective. Wouldn't venture anywhere for PvP? You are a complete carebear, ganking noob. Your perspective is faulty, and your opinion lacks.
Davien Thule	Posted - 2009.02.03 01:07:00 - [130] Originally by: Il Morte What ruined pvp is all the whining carebears. That is what ruined it. This ship is too powerful, this ship is too fast, this ship won't let me target lock. I get camped, I attacked them in thier system so now they blobbed me, they can see me on local and no I am gonna kill them, my history shows how old I am, wha wha wha. next thing you will say what is killing pvp is blue standings. You should not be able to see if someone is an ally or mate you should just know that and if you dont kil them. And carebears complaining that they need bookmarks, or they can't fly around risk-free.
Davien Thule	Posted - 2009.02.03 01:11:00 - [131] Originally by: Rennion Edited by: Rennion on 30/01/2009 12:49:08 Sorry but warp to zero does not only effect gatecamping... It effects all sorts from your likelyhood of bumping into another solo pilot, to your ability to warp into a fight and your ability to warp out of a fight (then instajump and be two systems away in seconds..) etc etc etc... Combine warp to zero with the speed nerfs and agility/align time boosts and GG matey, bring a blob or spend your time chasing shadows. Ever since WTZ it has become easier and easier to avoid a fight, how can anyone playing a pvp game think this is a good thing? In my ideal world we would go back to warp to 15km and it would be made immpossible to make a BM within 150km of a warpable object. Then scan res vs align time would be re-evaluated and I would need a new pair of pants. You're absolutely right.
Nicholas Barker Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.02.03 01:13:00 - [132] Originally by: Davien Thule Warp to 0. For the rest of you care bears it was your finest moment in this game. To all of you newbies look, there's one right here! ------
Paper Airplane BEEs HIVE	Posted - 2009.02.03 01:26:00 - [133] real life
BrundleMeth Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.02.03 02:56:00 - [134] GAK As a two week old player I wonder what I got myself into here. I thought things looked pretty good but it sounds like everyone here is mostly unhappy. (I could be wrong I suppose). Warp to Zero, Copying Bookmarks, etc. Don't know what that means or why it's bad. It sounds like some people think "the good old days" were better. I just hope to have some fun here. And I never whine and I won't run away from a good PvP fight... Woot !!!
Ratchman	Posted - 2009.02.03 12:56:00 - [135] Originally by: Davien Thule Sure, if you count PvP to be 10+ ships to take out single frigates or cruisers. Or better yet, my friend and his buddy took two inties out to 0.0 and in the end had 2 capital ships + support trying to hunt them (do you think this was planned overkill, or were they just in those ships at the time? I suspect it was the latter.). PvP, to you care bears, is all about gank squads. (Isn't this what carebears are supposed to traditionally object to?) This post, and his subsequent posts, plus the fact that he is only a few months old, suggests Mr Thule is little more than a troll. Either that, or he's completely crap at PVP, and just whinging because he got ganked, rather than doing the ganking. The people I know that are good at PVP do not complain about PVP being dead, and I have seen no evidence that it is dead. What is different is that pirates now have to work for a living. What Mr Thule wants is no-risk kills so he can rack up those kill-mails. It is amazing though, how many people like to troll. I never understood why people need to try and annoy and irritate other people to alleviate their own feelings of inadaquacy.
Ratchman	Posted - 2009.02.03 13:31:00 - [136] Originally by: Rennion Edited by: Rennion on 30/01/2009 12:49:08 Sorry but warp to zero does not only effect gatecamping... It effects all sorts from your likelyhood of bumping into another solo pilot, to your ability to warp into a fight and your ability to warp out of a fight (then instajump and be two systems away in seconds..) etc etc etc... Combine warp to zero with the speed nerfs and agility/align time boosts and GG matey, bring a blob or spend your time chasing shadows. Ever since WTZ it has become easier and easier to avoid a fight, how can anyone playing a pvp game think this is a good thing? In my ideal world we would go back to warp to 15km and it would be made immpossible to make a BM within 150km of a warpable object. Then scan res vs align time would be re-evaluated and I would need a new pair of pants. Yes, it has become easier to avoid a fight, but don't you think it was a little too easy to catch people beforehand? Obviously not. But this is the way it should be. Making it harder for people to flee will just make lowsec less enticing to people, and you will have fewer targets to shoot at. It boils down to this simple statement: You can have an easier time catching an individual, but with a massive drop in frequency, or you can have a smaller chance of catching them, and have a greater number of chances. Either way, it won't make too much difference, but the former means longer periods of inactivity, whereas the latter does give you plenty of things to do. The latter also pleases the majority which, like it or not, are those who venture into lowsec less often. And before the flames start stating this, that, and the other, representation in the forums is not representation of the whole, but most people must approve of it, as there would have been a flood of petitions and the game restored to the previous version. And don't tell me that people used to roam around on their own hunting, when we all know that nobody strays that far away from support, because it would be stupid to place yourself in a situation where you could be easily outnumbered and cut off. Well, sometimes people do go hunting alone deep in enemy space, but it's not the standard behaviour. A goon without a swarm does not prosper.
Torco Breed of Malakka	Posted - 2009.02.03 13:31:00 - [137] Falcons..... nuff said
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2009.02.03 13:36:00 - [138] Local pretty much bred the blob mentality and if that's carebear all the so called PvPers are one.
Schalac Caldari Apocalypse Reign	Posted - 2009.02.03 13:49:00 - [139] I'm a carebear.
Neamus	Posted - 2009.02.03 13:50:00 - [140] Originally by: Davien Thule Warp to 0. For the rest of you care bears it was your finest moment in this game. To all of you newbies who're just beginning I don't expect you to understand. I think it was an excellent change. Getting from one place to another used to be a major chore. Going anywhere new meant a journey out and back again dedicated solely to setting up instas, on longer journeys this task used to take hours. Its not as if its suddenly become impossible to stop people either, there are more tools for it now than there were back then. Perhaps its a little more tricky in empire but imo its better balanced than it was. Branding people care bears and newbies because you're in the midst of an emorage doesn't do your argument any favours.
Dotard Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.03 14:20:00 - [141] Originally by: Neamus I think it was an excellent change. Getting from one place to another used to be a major chore. Going anywhere new meant a journey out and back again dedicated solely to setting up instas, on longer journeys this task used to take hours. Its not as if its suddenly become impossible to stop people either, there are more tools for it now than there were back then. Perhaps its a little more tricky in empire but imo its better balanced than it was. Branding people care bears and newbies because you're in the midst of an emorage doesn't do your argument any favours. This.
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2009.02.03 14:59:00 - [142] Get rid of gates
Ubik Null Minmatar The Ore House	Posted - 2009.02.03 16:12:00 - [143] Didn't read the replies, so I'm sure it's been said already: Gate camping is not PvP, it's just a way of running missions without finding an agent. It's similar to being armed in an elevator and shooting people as they walk in. Warp to 0 has been in game since Beta, it's called bookmarks.
Faife Federation of Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2009.02.03 16:48:00 - [144] i didnt even know pvp was ruined. i'm still having fun.

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