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Katana Seiko
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.01.29 22:50:00 -
[1]
You should be careful about ETCs and Scams. Since you invest real world money into ETCs, you can become target of real world criminal prosecution... Right now, the prosecution authorities are following some cases: In one of them, possibly a hacker stole several high-value items from some player that bought one of these items over eBay. Since the items was bought for real world money, they said it's justifiable to follow this case. The person that stole these items faces jailtime between 2 and 5 years.
Now, between theft and a scam there's a rather slim difference. And I somehow don't think that a judge will allow the defense "It's a harsh world. It's his own fault!"... Now, who likes to trade his Navy Raven for my piece of Zydrine? |
Scarlette Harlette
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Posted - 2009.01.29 22:52:00 -
[2]
0/10
Fail
Proof
Can I has your stuff? |
Sturdy Girl
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Posted - 2009.01.29 22:57:00 -
[3]
Fact is, that the agreement into which every player has entered into with CCP,makes it pretty clear that none of the items in the eve universe are owned by the player.
They are owned by CCP.
If a different player scams the original player out of such items (wither normal items or plexes) they are still owned by CCP.
When you buy an ETC, the agreement is that you can redeem it directly yourself, exchange it via the secure transfer system (if you get scammed by either of these methods, you've scammed yourself somehow), OR turn it into plexes.
Once turned into plexes, they are NOT worth any RL money. They are only worth isk. And they are still owned by CCP anyway.
So the law is clear - scamming in Eve is safe. |
Katana Seiko
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.01.29 22:58:00 -
[4]
Sources: ENISA Document and SPIEGEL report (translated)
I agree, the translation is awful... Prople who understand german should better read the original... |
Le Poupon
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.01.29 23:00:00 -
[5]
Not alot of prople understand german. ME included. |
Katana Seiko
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.01.29 23:02:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Katana Seiko on 29/01/2009 23:03:30
Originally by: Sturdy Girl So the law is clear - scamming in Eve is safe.
I wouldn't be too sure about that... Items, no problem. The PLEX however is an item that is directly redeemable as game time - and therefore not so clear anymore...
Originally by: Le Poupon Not alot of prople understand german. ME included.
That's why I used Google Translate to give you an impression what the original says... (You might want to try german to french tho, if I guess correctly from your name...) |
Le Poupon
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.01.29 23:10:00 -
[7]
Can you do me German to Klingon, my prople speak Klingon alot -------sig------------------------------------ Thing is I'm not acctualy an Alt Post like a butterfly Sting like a bee |
Sturdy Girl
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Posted - 2009.01.29 23:13:00 -
[8]
Well, maybe in Germany you'll get find a judge humourless enough to rule in plaintiffs favour.
But Eve servers are in London, so are technically governed by UK law. Try it here, and you'd have a tough time finding a judge who wouldn't look at you crazy, then throw you out of court for wasting his time.
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Alia Xii
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Posted - 2009.01.29 23:19:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Sturdy Girl Well, maybe in Germany you'll get find a judge humourless enough to rule in plaintiffs favour.
But Eve servers are in London, so are technically governed by UK law. Try it here, and you'd have a tough time finding a judge who wouldn't look at you crazy, then throw you out of court for wasting his time.
Indeed! Here in the UK murder is only frowned upon these days, and even if you're convicted you get sent to a Ritz style prison... sorry, did I say prison, I meant "rehabilitation facility".
Now give me your stuff! |
Chomin H'ak
Integrated Takeovers
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Posted - 2009.01.29 23:27:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Le Poupon Can you do me German to Klingon, my prople speak Klingon alot
nuqDaq ta'ta' jIH lan Hoch vo' chaH porghmey
Originally by: Frenden Dax My heart hopes that people aren't that stupid, but my experiences thus far suggest otherwise.
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Le Poupon
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.01.29 23:45:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Chomin H'ak
Originally by: Le Poupon Can you do me German to Klingon, my prople speak Klingon alot
nuqDaq ta'ta' jIH lan Hoch vo' chaH porghmey
Did you just call me a chav? |
Droog 1
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Posted - 2009.01.29 23:49:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Droog 1 on 29/01/2009 23:49:35
Originally by: Chomin H'ak
Originally by: Le Poupon
nuqDaq ta'ta' jIH lan Hoch vo' chaH porghmey
Are you Jenny Spitfire? |
Nadir Shabbaz
Shuugouteki
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Posted - 2009.01.29 23:54:00 -
[13]
Actually stealing ingame items, real world money or not, cannot be tried because the ingame property, unlike Second Life for instance, belongs to CCP NO MATTER WHAT. You pay for a license to use their property but the virtual items, your character, your account is property of CCP.
So no... |
Alia Xii
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Posted - 2009.01.30 00:11:00 -
[14]
In Soviet Russia.... the game owns you! Da, comrade! |
Captain Pompous
Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It
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Posted - 2009.01.30 01:38:00 -
[15]
I got hauled into court for scamming someone in EVE
Luckily, I got Judge Awesome to rule on my case, he basically gave me C&P as compensation for the big fat waste of my time
P.S.: German law has no pre-eminence in my jurisdiction. In Libya, we are as free as the bees! |
Lana Torrin
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.01.30 02:12:00 -
[16]
Does it help if i plea that im only a virtual person living in this virtual world stealing virtual items that are governed by virtual laws enforced by virtual police?
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rValdez5987
Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.
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Posted - 2009.01.30 04:28:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Lana Torrin Does it help if i plea that im only a virtual person living in this virtual world stealing virtual items that are governed by virtual laws enforced by virtual police?
Yes.
This will be dealt with. |
BallistaII
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2009.01.30 07:10:00 -
[18]
i heard in china, the government sponsors you if you farm and sell isks. |
Lana Torrin
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.01.30 07:23:00 -
[19]
Originally by: BallistaII i heard in china, the government sponsors you if you farm and sell isks.
Well I heard that in Soviet Russia, EVE farms you!.. Oh wait, it does that here too..
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Ignition SemperFi
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2009.01.30 09:23:00 -
[20]
I have a ruling from Judge Dredd that says, "I AM THE LAW" when it comes to scamming |
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Alowishus
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2009.01.30 09:52:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Alowishus on 30/01/2009 09:53:05
Originally by: Katana Seiko I wouldn't be too sure about that... Items, no problem. The PLEX however is an item that is directly redeemable as game time - and therefore not so clear anymore...
Wrong. A PLEX is in ingame item. Someone is buying a GTC and giving it back to CCP via turning it into a PLEX. Seems pretty clear to me. |
H Lecter
Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2009.01.30 10:03:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Le Poupon Not alot of prople understand german. ME included.
Only 105 million people
I agree it's a very rarely spoken language
My opinion may or may not be shared by my alliance |
Leiara Knight
Gallente The Oblivion Guard
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Posted - 2009.01.30 10:09:00 -
[23]
There's nothing to fear. I don't even have a pod in real life, let alone expensive implants.
Yet.
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Le Poupon
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.01.30 10:18:00 -
[24]
Originally by: H Lecter
Originally by: Le Poupon Not alot of prople understand german. ME included.
Only 105 million people
I agree it's a very rarely spoken language
Prople |
The Djego
Minmatar merovinger inc
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Posted - 2009.01.30 14:06:00 -
[25]
Edited by: The Djego on 30/01/2009 14:11:21
Quote: In truth, the officials determined entirely classical: You have approached the company.
This means by accepting the eula of CCP you accept that any Item you have on the server is owned by CCP and not by the player. The player only got a right to use the server...
Also as fare as EvE gooes with scamming, people donŠt steel, they simply buy your stuff for a very low price what isnŠt against any kind of law.
Originally by: Le Poupon
Originally by: H Lecter
Originally by: Le Poupon Not alot of prople understand german. ME included.
Only 105 million people
I agree it's a very rarely spoken language
Prople
Still I tend to find more people talking german than Klingon at my country(that might be Germany eventualy). ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.
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Posted - 2009.01.30 14:26:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Le Poupon Prople
They're making it too easy for you today.
Let's blame friday, tired after a weeks sleep at work/school, maybe.
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Another Whine
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Posted - 2009.01.30 15:14:00 -
[27]
Question did you even read the full report? if so you would discover that its a document written by ENISA or what ever to the SERVICE PROVIDERS (new as old) to improve your REAL LIFE SECURITY through the Virtual world
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Mithos Victus
Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.01.30 15:28:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Chomin H'ak
Originally by: Le Poupon Can you do me German to Klingon, my prople speak Klingon alot
nuqDaq ta'ta' jIH lan Hoch vo' chaH porghmey
Did you just say... pork me?
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Vargrh
Gallente Quasar Fleet
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Posted - 2009.01.30 15:45:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Vargrh on 30/01/2009 15:49:23 In relation to UK law, the Fraud Act 2006 was specifically brought in to target online criminals.
If you scam someone in game for an ingame item or isk then thats fair play, no RL crime.
If you scam someone on ebay by claiming to have Virtual Currency, Time Codes or Ingame Items for sale and you then dont honour this when someone pays you, you will be open to investigation for Fraud by False Representation. You will likely have your Ebay Seller account closed and have your game accounts banned by most of the companies that provide MMORPG style games.
If you use the ingame chat as an interface to do the same scams, (e.g. claiming you will give someone money in real life for a time code then not honouring it, you commit the same offence). The game client would be viewed no differantly then using a telephone or a email uses as a communication interface to commit the offence, as you have defrauded someone of a real life commodity they paid for.
Obviously it would depend on the police having jurisdiction on the person committing the crime, so if someone was based overseas doing this, or was using an account paid for with time codes and CCP had no idea who was really behind the account scamming, then i doubt it would go anywhere, but the potential to investigate it as a crime is there.
People in the UK that have used Ebay Seller Accounts to scam in this way, have been prosecuted by the police for fraud. And with the development of European Wide Arrest Warrants, being in another EU country isnt going to shield you.
Plex's, from my understanding of what I've read on them, become 'ingame items' once created so scamming someone for one wouldnt fall into the above category, neither would the simple scam of not paying for a time code in game you managed to blag of someone.
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Ignition SemperFi
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2009.01.30 16:22:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Vargrh Edited by: Vargrh on 30/01/2009 16:07:56 words
all i know is, if transformers can find where you live irl using ebay.... so can the cops!! ;-p ---- People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun.
Quote:
They already did introduce a counter to missiles, it's called Quantum Rise
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