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[Issue] Tempest vs Mealstrom v2

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Sensor Boosting	Posted - 2009.02.03 12:59:00 - [61] Originally by: Pattern Clarc Originally by: Sensor Boosting Quote: Personally? I have 3 races battleship to lvl 5? congrats. so do quite a few people..... typhoon - turret/missile/drone gank ship .... can fit a nice armor tank on it tempest - turret gank ship/sniper , can fit decent plate setup on maelstrom - mission runner/sniper/close gank sorry the only ship role that needs changing is the maelstrom to be more of a sniper rather than a close ganker. I think you've just proved my point. The tempest has roles which overlap with each of it's racial peers. In every case, it's a poorer alternative to them, decent plate setup? With 6 lows? Ganking with turrets? Who cares when the phoon does the most dps of any bs in the game, and the mealstrom has more turrets and a better active tank. The tempest is pig in the middle i'm sorry to say, with the tracking bonus, and a new tier of artillery, I ope to provide a clear distinction between it and the maelstrom for sniping with little changing as far as close quarters is concerned. seriously have you never flown a plated gank tempest before? thats just like saying hyperion and mega are the same....lets change them.....same with the geddon and abaddon.....all dmg ships.....but no we cant have more of them can we....so lets change everything shall we? maelstrom is the only one that needs changing, as its the one that overlaps the other 2 ships roles.
Gabriel Karade Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.03 13:33:00 - [62] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 03/02/2009 13:33:28 Interesting idea, the Tempest does need some work and the 1650's give the minnies some of that alpha 'oompf' they've been missing of late.
TriDane Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.03 14:16:00 - [63] i didnt read it all but if this makes my sniper nano tempest better i support!
devil666devil	Posted - 2009.02.03 14:17:00 - [64] Edited by: devil666devil on 03/02/2009 14:17:13 ill support on my random alt aswell Tridane
Marn Prestoc Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2009.02.03 16:04:00 - [65] Along with your changes I would: I'd increase PG of Tempest so could fit 1400s+mwd without RCU like the Megathron, hence its 1400 performance vs Maelstrom would improve but still 1650 would be the Maelstrom's strength. The extra fitting would also help a little bit in close range but would only upgrade a gun or two. Maelstrom I think the HP bonus with 7 mids - 4 lows is possibly to strong, mids for a shield tanker are a lot better and 4 lows is perfect (3 damage mods + dc). For example the 7th mid could be used for boost amp hence giving it back the shield boost it had, with the lose of a low that would only be a pds/nano/istab low value mod traded for more HP. 7-4 with no tanking bonus would be balanced like 6-5 with tank bonus imo. Hence scrap the HP bonus and go for something else although i'm not sure atm (slap whoever says TP bonus).
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.03 16:32:00 - [66] Originally by: Marn Prestoc Along with your changes I would: I'd increase PG of Tempest so could fit 1400s+mwd without RCU like the Megathron, hence its 1400 performance vs Maelstrom would improve but still 1650 would be the Maelstrom's strength. The extra fitting would also help a little bit in close range but would only upgrade a gun or two. Maelstrom I think the HP bonus with 7 mids - 4 lows is possibly to strong, mids for a shield tanker are a lot better and 4 lows is perfect (3 damage mods + dc). For example the 7th mid could be used for boost amp hence giving it back the shield boost it had, with the lose of a low that would only be a pds/nano/istab low value mod traded for more HP. 7-4 with no tanking bonus would be balanced like 6-5 with tank bonus imo. Hence scrap the HP bonus and go for something else although i'm not sure atm (slap whoever says TP bonus). What about the base HP bonus with the current slot configuration? And if so, a 25% (1 lse) or 50% (2 lse)?
Cyber Templar	Posted - 2009.02.03 16:33:00 - [67] Nice idea Pattern It's about time someone thought seriously about the future roles of the Minmatar "Lost Battleship" (Tempest). Also it's about time that the Maelstrom could be used as a proper sniper rather than just a second rate Megathron wannabe. You got my vote on this
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:20:00 - [68] Originally by: Cyber Templar Nice idea Pattern It's about time someone thought seriously about the future roles of the Minmatar "Lost Battleship" (Tempest). Also it's about time that the Maelstrom could be used as a proper sniper rather than just a second rate Megathron wannabe. You got my vote on this You forgot to check the 'Check here if you want to give your support to the idea/discussion going on' thing before you posted. Check out my new flash web page 'Dark Paradise'
Marn Prestoc Queens of the Stone Age Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:35:00 - [69] Edited by: Marn Prestoc on 03/02/2009 17:36:42 Originally by: Pattern Clarc What about the base HP bonus with the current slot configuration? And if so, a 25% (1 lse) or 50% (2 lse)? Sure 6-5 layout with a base HP increasing bonus would be great. 10k with skills, LSE increases to 13281 so a bonus to equal a LSE would be 33%. So probably 7.5% base shield HP per level would be best (with nerfing of recharge so at level 4 or 5 its same as currently). So gives a little more than a LSE in a 7th mid without losing the 5th low, which is low value close range but higher value for sniping (rcu/pds without losing 3gyro and dc or a TE which is better than TC). p.s. Remebered to push Support this Topic button this time -
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:46:00 - [70] Originally by: Marn Prestoc Edited by: Marn Prestoc on 03/02/2009 17:36:42 Originally by: Pattern Clarc What about the base HP bonus with the current slot configuration? And if so, a 25% (1 lse) or 50% (2 lse)? Sure 6-5 layout with a base HP increasing bonus would be great. 10k with skills, LSE increases to 13281 so a bonus to equal a LSE would be 33%. So probably 7.5% base shield HP per level would be best (with nerfing of recharge so at level 4 or 5 its same as currently). So gives a little more than a LSE in a 7th mid without losing the 5th low, which is low value close range but higher value for sniping (rcu/pds without losing 3gyro and dc or a TE which is better than TC). p.s. Remebered to push Support this Topic button this time And done ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Pesadel0 Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.02.03 20:53:00 - [71] I approve :D
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.03 22:27:00 - [72] How about you keep one of them an AC boat and one of them an Arty boat. What is the insanity that makes you want both the Maelstrom and Tempest to be AC and Arty boats? Aren't you always complaining about how terrible it is that the ships are not specialized? All you're going to do is make one of them suck and the other one be better. A Mael with more hit points would be a fine sniper in its own right without adding another size of artillery(could use more fitting and a smaller signature as well). The Pest will never be a good sniper but is currently in a niche that your changes do not fix except to make fitting it for its intended goal ******edly easy. Just because the Mega is the rail sniper for gallente and the Hyp is the blaster boat does not mean that the Pest needs to have fitting comparable to the Gallente rail sniper. How about this: You increase the pests drone bay to 300 and its bandwidth to 100. This gives it versatility in drone choice as it has versatility in med slots and in high slots. This is a slight damage boost and a large utility boost as different drones for different things can be carried. Other than changing the armor/shield values you do nothing else. You do nothing but increase the fitting on the maelstrom such that it can fit 1400mm arties an mwd and an LSE with locus rigs without a fitting mod.(to start). Its not like its PG bound on the autocannon side anyway, so you're not changing its tank/gank role in that manner at all. But what you are doing is allowing it to more efficiently fit for tank, range, and damage. Which it is actually pretty good at(minus the range) all things considered.
Quark Fireborn	Posted - 2009.02.04 09:32:00 - [73] I 100% support this... nothing like trainin training training to get in ships to only have them nerfed! go pattern
Reynolds Third Return Inc. Blue Sun Trust	Posted - 2009.02.04 12:38:00 - [74] supporting this
Nozomi nrvqsr Les chevaliers de l'ordre Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.02.04 14:59:00 - [75] Edited by: Nozomi nrvqsr on 04/02/2009 14:59:12 Tempest of love.
Dark Flare 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.04 18:17:00 - [76] Supporting this. Also LaVista I'm not entirely sure you've ever tried flying a Tempest against a Mega if you think the Tempest can beat the Mega 1v1 "if the pilot is good enough". The Mega has to be badly fitted at the moment pretty much. I did a load of testing on SiSi with myself in a Tempest (Battleship 5, T2 Large Autos, full Slave set, Strong Exile Booster) vs a Megathron pilot (Battleship 4, T1 Large Guns, no slaves, no exile) and lost every time. I tried plated, I tried active repped. I tried gank, I tried full tank. I tried Ewar (TDs). The Tempest just can't compete with the Mega.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.04 19:41:00 - [77] Edited by: Goumindong on 04/02/2009 19:41:42 Originally by: Dark Flare myself in a Tempest (Battleship 5, T2 Large Autos, full Slave set, Strong Exile Booster) vs a Megathron pilot (Battleship 4, T1 Large Guns, no slaves, no exile) and lost every time. You're a bad liar or a worse pilot.
Dark Flare Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.04 21:21:00 - [78] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 04/02/2009 19:41:42 Originally by: Dark Flare myself in a Tempest (Battleship 5, T2 Large Autos, full Slave set, Strong Exile Booster) vs a Megathron pilot (Battleship 4, T1 Large Guns, no slaves, no exile) and lost every time. You're a bad liar or a worse pilot. Can you even fly Minmatar?
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.04 21:51:00 - [79] Edited by: NightmareX on 04/02/2009 21:53:49 Originally by: Dark Flare Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 04/02/2009 19:41:42 Originally by: Dark Flare myself in a Tempest (Battleship 5, T2 Large Autos, full Slave set, Strong Exile Booster) vs a Megathron pilot (Battleship 4, T1 Large Guns, no slaves, no exile) and lost every time. You're a bad liar or a worse pilot. Can you even fly Minmatar? I fly Tempest most of my times. I'm a 95% Minmatar user. And i can say this for sure. Your totally wrong about the Tempest Dark Flare. 3-4 months ago on sisi, i was testing out the Tempest to see what it really was good for. Well i have used the Tempest for years, but i just did a very good test of the Tempest there with the close range setup. This is the ships i was fighting on sisi that time. I have been fighting 14x Megathrons and won over 10. Been fighting 5x Raven's and won over 4. 3x Typhoon's and won over 2. 4x Armageddon's and won over all. 2x Apoc's and won over them both. 1x Abaddon and won over it. 1x Tempest and won over it. 2x Maelstrom's and won over both. 1x Dominix, lost to it and 1x Hyperion and lost to that one to. So after my results that time, it's very good tbh. This was also after the web and speed nerf. I wouldn't call that for crap results Dark. If you just can use your brain a bit, your Tempest is more of a pain to others. It's more dangerous than it looks, or after what the stats shows.
Dark Flare Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.04 21:52:00 - [80] Well, the only thing that could be erroneous about my test is that it was pre-web nerf. So it was impossible to dictate range.
Sensor Boosting	Posted - 2009.02.04 21:52:00 - [81] Originally by: Dark Flare Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 04/02/2009 19:41:42 Originally by: Dark Flare myself in a Tempest (Battleship 5, T2 Large Autos, full Slave set, Strong Exile Booster) vs a Megathron pilot (Battleship 4, T1 Large Guns, no slaves, no exile) and lost every time. You're a bad liar or a worse pilot. Can you even fly Minmatar? LOL i have to agree with the goon guy, ive had a navy mega in structure before i died, and i had a hurricane on me aswell as the navy mega. and no the mega wasnt poorly fitted
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2009.02.04 21:56:00 - [82] Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 04/02/2009 22:00:16 what minmatar also needs is: tracking enhancer also affecting falloff, you can tracking disrupt falloff but not boost it? also it would be nice if the tempst could fit 140mm arty like the mega fits rails, and had a bit more locking range would not hurt. if you boost the tempest, do not forget the fleet version ;P
Dark Flare Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.04 22:02:00 - [83] Originally by: Sensor Boosting Originally by: Dark Flare Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 04/02/2009 19:41:42 Originally by: Dark Flare myself in a Tempest (Battleship 5, T2 Large Autos, full Slave set, Strong Exile Booster) vs a Megathron pilot (Battleship 4, T1 Large Guns, no slaves, no exile) and lost every time. You're a bad liar or a worse pilot. Can you even fly Minmatar? LOL i have to agree with the goon guy, ive had a navy mega in structure before i died, and i had a hurricane on me aswell as the navy mega. and no the mega wasnt poorly fitted Bet he wasn't carrying Null. A Mega does more dps than a Tempest, and has more EHP, and if it wants can field a better active tank.
Sensor Boosting	Posted - 2009.02.04 22:13:00 - [84] Originally by: Dark Flare Bet he wasn't carrying Null. A Mega does more dps than a Tempest, and has more EHP, and if it wants can field a better active tank. not many people carry null bcos they either dont have the cargo for it or dont use it bcos they think its crap. but yes mega does have more EHP but doesnt mean the tempest cant win against it. its all down to the pilots skill
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.04 22:46:00 - [85] Originally by: Dark Flare Bet he wasn't carrying Null. A Mega does more dps than a Tempest, and has more EHP, and if it wants can field a better active tank. Not the mega you claimed. In fact the pest you claimed you were flying did more raw DPS, more real DPS, with longer range, more utility, better tank, and better raw hit points than the Megathron. I won't say a pest will always win against an equally skilled and fitted mega(PS, fly A hyperion, they're better in every way), and i also won't say it will always lose, but i will say that if you, in a slaved, exiled, tech 2 gunned, bs 5 tempest can't beat a tech 1 gunned implantless Mega then something is up.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.04 22:49:00 - [86] Originally by: Dark Flare Bet he wasn't carrying Null. A Mega does more dps than a Tempest, and has more EHP, and if it wants can field a better active tank. Not the mega you claimed. In fact the pest you claimed you were flying did more raw DPS, more real DPS, with longer range, more utility, better tank, and better raw hit points than the Megathron. I won't say a pest will always win against an equally skilled and fitted mega(PS, fly A hyperion, they're better in every way), and i also won't say it will always lose, but i will say that if you, in a slaved, exiled, tech 2 gunned, bs 5 tempest can't beat a tech 1 gunned implantless Mega then something is up.
Ymrir Cog Ex Machina	Posted - 2009.02.05 07:23:00 - [87] The 'pest used to have mad alpha, and it was cool. Then BS hp was boosted :( It makes do as a fleet ship, but is inferior to the competitors. It's terrible for theorycraft solo, and inferior to other ships for practical solo. Oh yeah and autocannons suxxor. Same falloff on different tiers, but a useless optimal increase? Seriously? -- Ad Astra
Raquel Trotter Trotters Independent Trading	Posted - 2009.02.05 09:03:00 - [88] Totally support this... Stop hating minnie CCP
JordanParey Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.02.05 10:33:00 - [89] changing drone bandwidth would be sweet =) I <3 my Tempest already and I am looking into a Mael =)
Zibu 81 ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.06 09:46:00 - [90] I'd rather go with something like this: Tempest: 5% rof bonus per level 10% falloff bonus add drones or something to compensate for dps loss Maelstrom: give it an apoc like treatment: + x% shields as base stat (and not as per BS level) 5% rof bonus per level (or damage) 7.5% tracking (or optimal) per level Now you have Tempest as AC boat, and Mael as a proper sniper. The way you suggest it you'll have Tempest as a shot range sniper with good tracking and Mael as a long range sniper, that couldn't track a MWD'ing titan, while both would still perform nicely as AC boats.

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