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Flinchey
Amarr ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:55:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Flinchey on 02/02/2009 14:56:32 sure, from a mathematical standpoint (after a while) but never in a logical, or actual meaningful standpoint: here's why
my current attributes with +IV implants, all tier 1 learning skills to IV. all tier 2 to III except for spatial awareness, IV.: INT 18.36 CHA 12.96 PERC 27.0 MEM 18.36 WILL 21.60
i set out to devise a balanced skill plan (using evemon), that would attempt to make gaining learning skills, worthwhile. heres what i found (from memory mainly, figures are accurate enough to show actual impact)
after ~228 days, it would be worth training logic to IV. for a 4 hour training time improvement.. oo...kay... after approximately 500 days, getting one of them to V. learning to V. and two of them to IV. nets a 3 day gain... ok still not worth it.. and.. i can now fly a titan... almost fully skilled.. ok... after 900 days there was an approximate 22 day skill training time increase with, most learning skills set to go to V. i had gone far past planning to fly better ships by now, and was getting up manufacturing, leadership, corp management, logistics etc. etc.
lets skip to the end a situation where FINALLY all learning skills to V (this is assuming you, after all this time, have stuck with +4 plants, not gone to say +7's which might make the learning skills totally invalud... if i had 30 perception to start with (a +7 perc plant)... the time taken to pay off 2 more perception increases exponentially.) an 8 year skill plan, making you able to successfully do ANYTHING the game has to offer on a single character (not quite fully skilled, but that not the point of this test), including flying every capital ship of every single race at level V. you would save. 250 days.
now.. 250 days you might be thinking? woah?!
no, eve is a game of specialization, if you want to do everything, by this point especially, you'd be having an isk flow capable of supporting 2, 3, maybe more even, accounts, without spending real life money. thereby giving you an immediate doubling, tripling etc. of your skill learning speed.
not to mention, i , for one, dont even know if i'd be playing eve until the year 2017 :| (i mean, thats a long time)
the only. viable learning skill plan, is all to IV. no higher. it is NEVER. EVER. logically worth it. mathematically, over years, yes, but no. in a realistic sense, not.
ED: just try it yourself, go into evemon, start adding a few skills you want... add a few more you MIGHT want.. take note of the suggestions at each stop, then just add more and more, keep taking note. |
Yelan Zhou
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.02 15:20:00 -
[2]
Not everyone specializes, you missed the possibility of new skills appearing.I agree with you that learning the advanced ones to 5 is not so good.For others is it worth to do so for valid reasons however.
But what I realy ask myself is :Do we realy need another thread about that?
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Flinchey
Amarr ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.02 15:22:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Flinchey on 02/02/2009 15:22:45
Originally by: Yelan Zhou Not everyone specializes, you missed the possibility of new skills appearing.I agree with you that learning the advanced ones to 5 is not so good.For others is it worth to do so for valid reasons however.
But what I realy ask myself is :Do we realy need another thread about that?
sure, if you plan on becoming EVERYTHING on a single account (why??? it would be free for you to run an alt by then lol)
almost everyone either specializes. or makes alts.
and new skills dont make it any more worthwhile, unless those new skills are a tier 3 learning skill or something. you still have to wait years for the payoff, years where you're better just making an alt, and continue going down whatever specialty you chose.
besides, assuming you specialize, it'd just be another say, ship flying skill, that you already have the perc/willpower stat high enough anyway. for example.
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Yelan Zhou
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.02 15:26:00 -
[4]
I hate the use of alts, I stick to this character.I play for 6 months now and have 10 million skillpoints and I could easily afford to buy a character with 40 millions.I wont do that for the same reasons I dont use alts.It kills my fun.
If one has a sting in his/her side bacause he/she has not perfect attributes there is a valid reason to train them all on five.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.02.02 16:26:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Flinchey almost everyone either specializes or makes alts
Not really. There are people who get rid of alts they made at some time in the past, and try to generalize as much as possible on their mains too. There are other people who never even create a second character on their main account, or at least never train any of them.
_ Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Valrandir
Gallente Blood Inquisition Legion of Honor
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Posted - 2009.02.02 16:51:00 -
[6]
Trained all of them to V years ago when they came out. It's worth it.
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Wardo21
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Posted - 2009.02.02 17:00:00 -
[7]
If you never plan on losing those +4 implants, then don't read further.
If you do lose those implants and don't have another set lying around or the cash to buy a new set, consider getting those skills to 4 (tier 2) or 5 (tier 1) anyhow.
The return on investment of any level of learning skill (for an attribute) is the inverse proportion of the stat you're training up from. So going from 20 to 21 stat (all implants considered) gives you a 1/20th increase over the old rate of learning. Multiply the time it took to train and that's the return on investment time required for training skills with that as primary. Adjust as needed for higher skills, the OP for instance will have a (27 x training time) = ROI, if he chooses to train perception.
You can do the same thing with implants, but there isn't time involved initially, just the cost of the implants. If the implants survive longer than whatever ROI you expected, great. If you got podded before that time, suxors. How you value the ISK vs time saved is up to you.
EveMon did all the math for you, in your particular plan. If you hadn't decided to go for the well rounded skillset, the learning skills may have made good filler for future training.
Also, I had to train tier 1 to 5 before I could get to the tier 2 skills. I don't want to hear more whining about how hard the learning skills are now...
"When I was a noob, my ship trained me on a 2600 baud dial up connection to my pod! You whippersnappers don't understand the meaning of a long skill train!" (in my best "Geezer" voice) |
Flinchey
Amarr ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.02 17:08:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Flinchey on 02/02/2009 17:13:25 Edited by: Flinchey on 02/02/2009 17:12:26
Originally by: Valrandir Trained all of them to V years ago when they came out. It's worth it.
no it isn't... if you trained them up the day the game was released (yes i know the skills weren't even in game)
so 5.5 years now (1864 days)
ok: i made a skill plan involving a mix of leadersship/corp management, industry, gunnery, spaceship command, etc.
basically a balance of all 5 attributes in both primary and secondary positions.
1880 days of skills.
focus III required. no more. (willpower)
presence is not required AT ALL (charisma)
2200 days of skills, EVERY SINGLE WILLPOWER PRIMARY SKILL TO V, every single leadership/corp management skill. (char primary in general)
Focus V required
presence IV required
EDIT: oh, and you save 200d
but if you did presence to V... thats completely negated :D
and for the 5 year plan? same deal if you did focus...you're still paying it off most likely (and if you're not paying off focus, you'll certainly still be paying off one of your other learning skills still)
after 5 years. its PROBABLY STILL NOT WORTH IT (i haven't tested for all primary/secondary % combinations) so i dont want to 'generalize' i suuppose would be the most appropriate term.safe bet is, after 5 years, you're still not in the green overall with all learning skills to V. |
Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa
Minmatar The Perfect Harvesting Experience
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Posted - 2009.02.02 17:23:00 -
[9]
You seem to forget the pre-RMR (Red Moon Rising for those people that have just hatched from their pod) that when advanced learning just were released, the preq WAS the normal learning skill at 5... so Logic I, required Analythical Mind V.
But after RMR the devs found a soft-spot for the young and whining and lowered requirements to IV.
In short; there was a reason for learning skills to 5, but currently we are playing EVE-Online: The Silver Platter Edition (tm)...
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Originally by: Paper Rock's fine, nerf Scissors
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Flinchey
Amarr ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.02 17:39:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa You seem to forget the pre-RMR (Red Moon Rising for those people that have just hatched from their pod) that when advanced learning just were released, the preq WAS the normal learning skill at 5... so Logic I, required Analythical Mind V.
But after RMR the devs found a soft-spot for the young and whining and lowered requirements to IV.
In short; there was a reason for learning skills to 5, but currently we are playing EVE-Online: The Silver Platter Edition (tm)...
thats even worse then
lowering the requirements to IV allowed you to speed up the process of getting to V in the first place (by getting a quick few extra attribs in the tier 2's)
and even in this accelerated environment, it isn't economical
so you poor people who needed the tier one learning skills to 5 are just screwed. haha.
and you seem to think i'm talking about the tier 1 learning skills.. no, im talking about the tier 2 ones as well.
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Tandin
The Knights Templar Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.02.02 18:06:00 -
[11]
A rank one learning skill takes about 4 days to train to level 5. To do all 5 is about 3 weeks. That is nothing in terms of training time when compared to months to get T2 large weapons and max out BS skills or train for carriers or dreads. |
SarcasticDwarf
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Posted - 2009.02.02 18:38:00 -
[12]
Let's say the payoff time is three years. What are the odds that I will still be playing in 3 years? After five years (2 years after payoff) I might save a weeks worth of training (total). At that point when I will be on purely 3+ week skills will I even care?
I think my character is about 18-24 months old now and the only ones I have at V are learning, memory, and intelligence (rank 1) due to having lousy stats in those areas (let's just say that training the Charisma to V would literally never pay off).
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Benedic
The Aftermath
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Posted - 2009.02.02 18:45:00 -
[13]
In before someone presents a detailed analysis of how you could more efficiently spend your time if you weren't playing an internet spaceship game, or posting on a forum telling other people how to most efficiently play an internet spaceship game.
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Nequrian
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Posted - 2009.02.02 18:52:00 -
[14]
I have all learning skills at 5 and implats +5 and I don't care it :P
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Chitah
Gallente Estamine Tuga de Altos Estudos
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Posted - 2009.02.02 18:52:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Chitah on 02/02/2009 18:53:35 It's worth it..at least part of them.
If you are mostly combat you will need per/will as high as possible. Industrialist Int/mem as high as possible.
Make 2 plans: one with learning skills maxed (Per/will) and other wiithout. You will earn those extra SP/hour which if you look at medium run does not compensate...long run it will...
I can tell you that my perception/willpower lvl5 basic and advanced has allready payed a few months ago. Anyway, they are not mandatory you only make them if you want ;).
If we are talking about presence i agree with the op.
cheers,
Chitah
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Estel Arador
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.02 18:59:00 -
[16]
There's nothing new in OP's post, the anecdotal style is completely unnecessary for something purely mathematical, and the conclusion is not supported by the presented 'evidence' (regardless of the abuse of the word 'logical').
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Arous Drephius
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.02.02 19:16:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Flinchey +7's
No +6 or +7 implants are in game. In the database yes, in the game no.
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Lochmar Fiendhiem
Caldari Quicksilver Industries and Painful Effects Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.02 19:18:00 -
[18]
my industry/everythin intel/mem based alt has 30.8mem and 27.5intel.
2574sp/h for another month or so when I got back and start perception/willpower all the way to 5 (basic and advanced). +4 intel implant and a +5 mem implant.
don't regret it one bit as its 3d ~1h for lvl 5 of a rank 1 skill.
Originally by: Halkin bob is dead, goons are great, cheese is cheesy, there we go no need for any more threads
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Lord Perdition
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Posted - 2009.02.02 19:23:00 -
[19]
If we compare something we have to compare it to ppl's average. Adv learning skills are like studing at university, it gives you better chance to get a well-paid job when you get the grade.
My current stats with maxed advanced (e. adv charisma) and +4 set
Int 26 Per 28 Cha 17 Wil 24 Mem 22
I am currently at 38,2m SP and I will get 40m SP for my 2nd birthday which is quite decent amount of SP.
I have recon, bc, hac, bs @ lvl 5 I have 10m+ in gunnery & spaceship command and 7m+ in drones
I can do whatever I want, and when doin so I feel so good, because I have done everything to get maximum training results. And the knowledge that I am learning and master the new skills faster than you is just awesome.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.02.02 20:06:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Akita T on 02/02/2009 20:11:22
Originally by: SarcasticDwarf Let's say the payoff time is three years. What are the odds that I will still be playing in 3 years?
For me ? Quite high However, I only have basics to 5 and advanceds to 4, and I NEEDED that for the advanceds back in the day...
Now, if at any one time I will have no idea what to train and I have to go away for a while, I'll probably start advanced perception 5... ...but then again I have too many things I want trained "NOW" that *are* quite long (actually, longer than any of those advanced 5s), so I'll probably never bother with advanceds 5 at all.
Side-note : on my alt (which I only kept a year and a half, then sold it, since I was seldom using it), I only had all of them to 4, and just a set of +3s for most of the time. Started to get some basic learnings to 5 and plugged in a set of +5s a couple of weeks before selling it, but I think the reason I sold it was precisely because I didn't know what I wanted to do with it anymore, it was pretty much fully trained in everything I needed it for, heh. Like I said, I wasn't using it for that at all, so... sales time _ Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
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Tra' Shaz
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.02.02 20:18:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Lord Perdition . And the knowledge that I am learning and master the new skills faster than you is just awesome.
This is what alot people don't take into account, after a patch it can be very advantageous to be one of the first few to have the skill(s) before anyone else. There are other arguments for having them to V in other threads which have been covered more than once. Tra' Shaz
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Estel Arador
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.02 20:46:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Tra' Shaz This is what alot people don't take into account, after a patch it can be very advantageous to be one of the first few to have the skill(s) before anyone else.
That's an advantage of a few hours at most, against the disadvantage of not having two month's worth of useful skills). |
Ravenal
The Fated E.Y
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Posted - 2009.02.02 21:01:00 -
[23]
here is where you are wrong.
At about 100m skillpoints I don't really have "much" to train except skills outside my specialty (me being a jack of all .. that means all other skills).
So, if I am going to continue training anyway it would be better for me to train the learning lvl5s right away instead of much later on ... like now when I don't have anything else to train anyway.
Sure, I "could" stop training after I got fully spec'ed in whatever it was I wanted to specialize in and start training another character on the same account or something ... but would you?
no, I wouldn't either.
But yes, if you don't plan on playing the game for too long you could just train up a character and earn isk... buy a character that has all learning skills trained up to max and sell your original one and start from there.
That way you have maxed learning for as long as you want it. . |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.02.02 21:25:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Pottsey on 02/02/2009 21:29:33 Flinchey said " the only. viable learning skill plan, is all to IV. no higher. it is NEVER. EVER. logically worth it. mathematically, over years, yes, but no. in a realistic sense, not." I disagree as I have months worth of skills I wouldn't have if I had IV. No matter what if I had IV I wouldn't have those skills. With IV I would have other skills, but I would be behind in my main skill plan by months. So saying never ever is just plain wrong.
Estel Arador said " That's an advantage of a few hours at most, against the disadvantage of not having two month's worth of useful skills)." It's more than a few hours you could spend up to 5months or longer ahead at T3. The T3 skills should take at least 5months to max out if not much longer so the people with adv5 spend 5 months ahead at T3 at the cost of losing out something else. Pretty sure after 5months of training T3 you will be more then just a few hours ahead at T3.
____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Washell Olivaw
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Posted - 2009.02.02 21:28:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Flinchey almost everyone either specializes. or makes alts.
Apparently I missed the poll you sent to every EVE player. Care to tell me where I can fill it out?
Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
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Lord Perdition
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Posted - 2009.02.02 21:33:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Estel Arador
Originally by: Tra' Shaz This is what alot people don't take into account, after a patch it can be very advantageous to be one of the first few to have the skill(s) before anyone else.
That's an advantage of a few hours at most, against the disadvantage of not having two month's worth of useful skills).
Estel Arador - 2006.05.29 ... 265 with 43,719,885 skill points http://ineve.net/skills/character.php?charID=NzYzNDg2ODQ5 Lord Perdition 2007.03.10 ... 112 skills and 38,265,193 skill points Cant show ya the updated link due to the alliance tournament. but here is the link anyway http://ineve.net/skills/character.php?charID=ODU5MzU1NzEx
Your "useful" SP 43,7M-2,2M = 41,5M & 978 days since your birth My "useful" SP 38,2M-4,7M = 33,5M & 693 days since my birth
Lets do some basic math to find out our useful SP/days played ratio.
41,5m/978 = 42,4k useful SP per day 33,5m/693 = 48,3k useful SP per day
Seems that your useful aint as useful as my useful. LOL
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.02.02 21:59:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Pottsey on 02/02/2009 22:02:34 Lord Perdition said "41,5m/978 = 42,4k useful SP per day 33,5m/693 = 48,3k useful SP per day Seems that your useful aint as useful as my useful. LOL" That's hardly a fair way to do it. You're not counting the useful skills he might gain due to adv5 v what skills he would lose and what skills he would gain with adv4.
It's not a clear cut case of adv4 is always better or adv5 is always better. It all depends on what skills you gain and lose with adv4 V what skills you gain with adv5. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.02.02 22:38:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Akita T on 02/02/2009 22:40:39
Originally by: Lord Perdition Lets do some basic math to find out our useful SP/days played ratio.
That assumes he never let his character lapse, that he had the learning skills at the current levels for a long time and so on and so forth. http://eve-sheet.com/skills/Akita_T - There, that's me. I had only 4s basics and +3 implants for a long time in the early days, I had my account expired for at least 2 months, I lost another 3-4 weeks overall to forgetting to change skills on time and so on and so forth...
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Dani SP
Rupture Farms Mining
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Posted - 2009.02.02 23:15:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Flinchey
i set out to devise a balanced skill plan (using evemon),
enough... and you a 11months old character?
My memory is 24,2 and my intelligence 22. Im a 2months old character and am already learning faster than you... Keep using EveMon and other brain-replacers, they seem to work great LOL!
Where is the trick? Easy --> I dont care about these 2 "wasted" months. |
Estel Arador
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.02 23:31:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Pottsey It's more than a few hours you could spend up to 5months or longer ahead at T3. (...)Pretty sure after 5months of training T3 you will be more then just a few hours ahead at T3.
IF there's 5 months worth of completely new skills being introduced (big 'if' there, but I'll humour you) you could finish them about 6 days faster if you have Adv V instead of Adv IV. Again, those 6 days require an investment of several months.
Originally by: Lord Perdition 41,5m/978 = 42,4k useful SP per day 33,5m/693 = 48,3k useful SP per day
Seems that your useful aint as useful as my useful. LOL
Two things here:
1) My skill points are spread out over a wider range of skills, including many Charisma and Memory based skills. If you were to train those too, your SP/day would drop. You aren't comparing the effect of the learning skills, but of the starting attributes. For any real comparison, you should compare characters with similar starting attributes and a similar range of skills trained. Alternatively, you could just use mathematics (as I advocated above).
2) If I cared at all about (min-/)maxing my attributes, I would've trained Adv V, plugged in +5 implants, and be an ugly Achura like you. Fact is, I don't care
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