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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Killshot DeathBunny
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Posted - 2009.02.04 19:25:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Jagga Spikes NPC corp problem is easily solvable: 25% tax rate for NPC corp and trade tax of 2.5%. everything good (war dec immunity) has to be paid for :)
Unfortunately this won't work.
Macro Miner 1, 2, 3 and 4 Mine for 23 hours and hand off all materials to MacroMaster Jonny in MPC (macro Processing Corp) completely under the radar and he processes it and sells it at normal rates.
The solution would be to find a way to double (or whatever) the yields while mining for Non-NoobCorp players. As long as you as a miner are in a corp that can be WarDec'd you get this bonus WHILE mining.
There is still the possibility that the Macros will switch over and actually start a corp to get this bonus, but when they do, the dedicated Macro hunters will have WarDecs ready.
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Clair Bear
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.02.04 19:43:00 -
[92]
Wardecs are only a threat to players who worry about employment histories and belonging to a corp.
To a macro switching corps every 23 hours is not that much of an impediment. Probably not even worth an 'if' check to see if a war dec is active.
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joan arcangel
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Posted - 2009.02.04 19:49:00 -
[93]
Edited by: joan arcangel on 04/02/2009 19:51:01 for those who ask "why higher isk in empire then poeple won't move out off high sec" stop asking for easy kills in low sec or 0.0 ..
limiting loot drops or removing it fine by me as i'm a miner/orca flier/builder.
changing loot to a few bpc's for faction stuff(or high meta mod bpc) by cool too as i do the odd mission to, to stop the boredom of mining from time to time..
inceasing roids or/and yeild would be cool and then it be better from a indy corp..
moving agents about will not have that much effect to mission farmers as they just pack up bags and move to another high agent untill the better ones come back, As most mission runners wont go to low sec to lose they nice ships and as lot of poeple have said they doing it for isk and not risk as many of them have other toon is they pvp char..
main problem is bigger the playbase gets means more ships needed and replacement ships and mods,and as the players get older they normally have bigger ships as well as small ships but as every other things gets bigger to handle more poeple hi sec mining don't..
before you hold on mine in low sec then i have, i can't mine as much ore in low as hi-sec due to all the pirates/pvp/killmail junkies will smash a mining group,
before you say get a guard group to defend us thats a good idea for about 15 mins before they get bore and fly off.
and as for 0.0 same as low sec for close 0.0 to high sec and for deeper 0.0 you have transport problems back to high sec, so you dont you build and sell in deep 0.0 and high sec will still have minerals problems because your not bring minerals from for deep 0.0 as the trouble is not worth the possible isk loss JF'ing it back from say 3 max jump range means you need 4 cyno's, carrying 30 mill units of trit time spent hassle with low sec and high-sec entey points with 4+ bill ship.
so the only thing you can do is uup yeild/roids in high sec to balance supply/demand in hi-sec
as most nearby 0.0 is supplyed by hi-sec for ships and mods as well as making they own( i know this as i have traded in ships & mods and pos stuff to near by 0.0)
only well to get the main poeple out of high sec would be to kill high sec apart from newbie systems and dont allow older players in..
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.02.04 20:00:00 -
[94]
Originally by: joan arcangel
moving agents about will not have that much effect to mission farmers as they just pack up bags and move to another high agent untill the better ones come back, As most mission runners wont go to low sec to lose they nice ships and as lot of poeple have said they doing it for isk and not risk as many of them have other toon is they pvp char..
The highest possible rewards from mission running SHOULD be located in low and null sec. This more or less is the tantamount game design goal that CCP has had for quite some time. Ie getting each profession to move OUT of empire.
Move the level 4's of the best quality into low security and introduce agent decay which reduces rewards the more you farm that agent.
Or introduce asteroid belts of gneiss into empire that never pop, since more or less it would be the same thing. |
joan arcangel
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Posted - 2009.02.04 20:05:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
The highest possible rewards from mission running SHOULD be located in low and null sec. This more or less is the tantamount game design goal that CCP has had for quite some time. Ie getting each profession to move OUT of empire.
Move the level 4's of the best quality into low security and introduce agent decay which reduces rewards the more you farm that agent.
Or introduce asteroid belts of gneiss into empire that never pop, since more or less it would be the same thing.
LOL they dont care about that as long as they can earn isk with little chance of getting pvp'd killed they will just switch agents so they don't over kill the agent/agents they get 5+ agents in different npc's have spare ships in them agents stations |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2009.02.04 20:06:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: LaVista Vista I find this worrying.
Nyphur and I found it worrying one and a half years ago
Assembly Hall - Recent Summary
Original 1.5 year old thread
I had a verty strong feeling that most of the mineral market came from loot, I just didn't have the stats CCP do to back it up. Now that we know just how much comes from loot, I feel completely justified in what I suggested in my mining revamp thread from 2007. The fact that mining isn't a major source of minerals is (to be blunt) ******ed. And while there's no magic solution to that problem, it's a disgrace that CCP have done teh bare minimum to make mining more attractive over the years. |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.02.04 20:08:00 -
[97]
Originally by: joan arcangel
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
The highest possible rewards from mission running SHOULD be located in low and null sec. This more or less is the tantamount game design goal that CCP has had for quite some time. Ie getting each profession to move OUT of empire.
Move the level 4's of the best quality into low security and introduce agent decay which reduces rewards the more you farm that agent.
Or introduce asteroid belts of gneiss into empire that never pop, since more or less it would be the same thing.
LOL they dont care about that as long as they can earn isk with little chance of getting pvp'd killed they will just switch agents so they don't over kill the agent/agents they get 5+ agents in different npc's have spare ships in them agents stations
Then so be it, the solution wasn't an attempt to remove farmers. The chinese drones will never go away. I just reduce their impact which it significantly would. |
Sophia Truthspeaker
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Posted - 2009.02.04 20:15:00 -
[98]
I think you are overlooking something. When I am running missions, I am doing it for fun. The extra isk from minerals are nice, but I still would do the same amount missioning compared to mining (zero) I am doing now, if all loot drops are gone. So instead of increasing mins gathered through ore, or decrease mission loot, why not make mining more interesting? If more people would mine, more minerals would be generated through mining. Easy ^^ There have been several suggestions concerning a more fun in mining approach already in other threads. A perfect new mining system would a) keep the ships as they are now with no changes to the way ore is mined b) offer a second way with new ships / modules that would require a more hands on approach c) a way to support mining in a group
Perhaps away from the strip miner, and instead a ship which targets a lot of roids at the same time, short cycle time of the special miners. Add that those modules constantly add heat and you have to dump the heat every once in a while with another module. There are probably better ideas out there, but if mining is more fun, and all space offers more chances to mine without bigger disturbances, the amount of mins from ore should increase drasticly.
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joan arcangel
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Posted - 2009.02.04 20:16:00 -
[99]
Edited by: joan arcangel on 04/02/2009 20:21:02 Edited by: joan arcangel on 04/02/2009 20:19:40
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Then so be it, the solution wasn't an attempt to remove farmers. The chinese drones will never go away. I just reduce their impact which it significantly would.
well thats would be nice but they just do the same as a pvper alt toon would have more then 1 agent and switch between them doing 2 0r 3 missions per agent per day this would kill the reduced agent pay off's
and by the way the better lp/rewards isk are in 0.0 and low sec if the killed up the socail skills.. as my main toon is a 2005 player i have dont most jobs in eve apart from big ship pvp in 0.0 and later prof ship stuff like warp bublle ships just starterd playing with black op's ship's
editing due laptop keybroad playing up and missing letters
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Killshot DeathBunny
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Posted - 2009.02.04 20:22:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Clair Bear Wardecs are only a threat to players who worry about employment histories and belonging to a corp.
To a macro switching corps every 23 hours is not that much of an impediment. Probably not even worth an 'if' check to see if a war dec is active.
That's easy to resolve, You only get the bonus for mining after being active in the corp for x period of days.
There will ALWAYS be workarounds.
I'm just a bit surprised that macros are still such a problem after CCP went so public about removing them from the landscape.
All I've seen is that the macros now all fly Hulks and are harder to harass without Suicide ganking and screwing your own Sec status in the process.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.02.04 20:28:00 -
[101]
Originally by: joan arcangel
well thats would be nice but they just do the same as a pvper alt toon would have more then 1 agent and switch between them doing 2 0r 3 missions per agent per day this would kill the reduced agent pay off's
and by the way the better lp/rewards isk are in 0.0 and low sec if the killed up the socail skills.. as my main toon is a 2005 player i have dont most jobs in eve apart from big ship pvp in 0.0 and later prof ship stuff like warp bublle ships just starterd playing with black op's ship's
editing due laptop keybroad playing up and missing letters
Then so be it, the idea is to REDUCE the faucet on the mission side and increase the faucet on the mining side.
Mission running earnings need the nerf bat, and hard.
...and this is coming from someone who used to farm Navy Megas just for the hell of it. |
joan arcangel
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Posted - 2009.02.04 20:36:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Then so be it, the idea is to REDUCE the faucet on the mission side and increase the faucet on the mining side.
Mission running earnings need the nerf bat, and hard.
...and this is coming from someone who used to farm Navy Megas just for the hell of it.
reduce the amount of missions per day a toon can do they marco farmers will just get extra toons to do it all you do is kill real players pvp alts missioning
and you still can farm navy megas just means you have to use more then 1 agent to do it.
the only way i can see to do what you want is to reduce how many kill mission's a agent gives out to a few per player per week and have it linked to the player and not a agent
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.02.04 20:38:00 -
[103]
Originally by: joan arcangel
reduce the amount of missions per day a toon can do they marco farmers will just get extra toons to do it all you do is kill real players pvp alts missioning
and you still can farm navy megas just means you have to use more then 1 agent to do it.
the only way i can see to do what you want is to reduce how many kill mission's a agent gives out to a few per player per week and have it linked to the player and not a agent
....you're being quite obtuse here
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joan arcangel
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Posted - 2009.02.04 20:43:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
....you're being quite obtuse here
sorry getting late here i am getting tired
basicaly stop kill missions % to a only a few that a player can do per week and give extra mission to courier/whatever
and have it linked to the player so if he moves agents it tells the new agent he;s done he's quota of kill missions and the new agent only gives courier/whatever missions instead of kill missions
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Fleshbot
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Posted - 2009.02.04 20:44:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Jagga Spikes meta 1-4 items should have reprocess value revised...by increasing their reprocess value, more would find their way into recycler's bins, therefore reducing availability on market and rising their price. this would also increase demand and price on common t1.
I like this.
Originally by: Jagga Spikes
NPC corp problem is easily solvable: 25% tax rate for NPC corp and trade tax of 2.5%. everything good (war dec immunity) has to be paid for
And this
I am not Jagga's alt.
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Killshot DeathBunny
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Posted - 2009.02.04 20:54:00 -
[106]
Ok I've run about 30 L4 missions last week, and I can honestly say that I made more ISK from the missions, Bounties, and salvage, than I did from minerals after recycling rat loot.
Alloys from drones are the exception.
I also do manufacturing, so I use the minerals I recycle, but the amount I get from scrapping does NOT solve my mineral needs.
Alloys from drones are the exception.
The things I noticed from this thread are this:
I see lots of calls to hack the T1 drops from rats... (this might help, but will not SOLVE anything)
You can scale the Rat droppings rate. T1 items dropping can have a diminishing chance to drop in relation to size that will help the market. Small guns survive the explosion and can be recovered, LARGE (and full of mineral) equipment like "MeGa LaZer 1500" (worth 800k ISK in minerals) Missed it's saving throw against explosion and got damaged and is now "Scrapmetal"... ...and if the market is flooded with Noobie gear in small sizes this is a good thing to keep the costs down for them, while the larger gear starts to disappear from the market there will be new manufacturing opportunities for the taking.
I may have missed it, but I don't see anyone calling for a Nerf on the drop rates on Alloys... Cut the Alloy drops by 70% and double the Mission completion rewards for those drone missions. Missioner not screwed for ISK earnings, Rare minerals not flooding the market.
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nether void
Caldari Shrapnel Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.04 21:15:00 -
[107]
Cut the bounty on NPC rats if missions are too lucrative. --------------------
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Lemming King
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Posted - 2009.02.04 21:17:00 -
[108]
I've seen lots of concern that miners will not be able to keep up with demand if loot mins are reduced. At current mining rates yes. However I think rising prices from the resulting shortage would get more mining skilled toons off their duffs if it was more profitable. Another concern being that the hi-sec belt are pretty much beat soon after respawn so where is this ore going to come from? Plenty of ore available in lo-sec, and if it was actually worthwhile to mine it you could pay for protection. Sure there might be a shortage for awhile but eventually it would get to the point that losing a covetor every couple mining ops to a pirate would be an acceptable loss if prices rose enough.
Until it gets more rewarding and or challenging mining is only something I will do while doing other stuff because it pays better than sitting in station.
I was quite surprised by those figures. Its no wonder that the mid-range lo-sec ores are worth less than Trit . |
Illioe
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Posted - 2009.02.04 21:40:00 -
[109]
I know it's been suggested, but I would like to repeat:
T1 ammo/modules should be cut COMPLETELY from missions. All remaining loot should be named/faction modules; at the same drop rate they currently are.
Mission rats should have increased bounties to compensate for reduction in loot, based of approximate base value of excluded loot. Mission T1 ammo/loot is a RELIC from when it may have once actually be desirable to have a source for those items other than industrialists.
This should: a) eliminate the mission T1 flooding industrialists on the market b) reduce strain on the server from generating and managing all the loot c) retain the same market balance between named loot (since its absolute drop rate is unchanged) d) retain the same profit/mission balance e) make looting and salvaging simpler: virtually all ships currently drop something, meaning it has to be checked even if you're only interested in higher end loot, and it has to be looted to salvage. f) eliminate "missioning for minerals"; this goes hand in hand with CCPs future intended mining changes g) ??? h) Profit!
The only concern about removing it is how it would affect the T1 market; I personally suspect it wouldn't be a problem (certainly there's no shortage of T2). To alleviate this, I would assume non-mission rats would still drop the normal loot, perhaps this too could be changed later. I personally have never looted random crap because I wanted the actual stuff, it's just a source of ISK; if that ISK is translated directly into the actual bounty on the rat, all the better. Leave miners to gather minerals. |
Illioe
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Posted - 2009.02.04 21:44:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Lemming King Another concern being that the hi-sec belt are pretty much beat soon after respawn so where is this ore going to come from? Plenty of ore available in lo-sec, and if it was actually worthwhile to mine it you could pay for protection. Sure there might be a shortage for awhile but eventually it would get to the point that losing a covetor every couple mining ops to a pirate would be an acceptable loss if prices rose enough.
I would also like to add: I personally have never been short on belts to mine. I think such a change would force some people to at least spread out to other less-populated regions to get their belts. There's plenty of rock out there to mine, if people are willing to move out of The Forge to get it. |
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nether void
Caldari Shrapnel Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.04 21:45:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Illioe d) retain the same profit/mission balance
Pretty sure we want to lower the profit/mission balance. |
Illioe
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Posted - 2009.02.04 21:56:00 -
[112]
Originally by: nether void Edited by: nether void on 04/02/2009 21:47:06
Originally by: Illioe d) retain the same profit/mission balance
Pretty sure we want to lower the profit/mission balance.
*edit* And I actually mission a fair deal. Made about 1bil last month from bounty/rewards and 600mil on drops.
I'd certainly be willing to accept a decrease, which then is just a matter of not raising bounties.
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Chaos Dreams
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Posted - 2009.02.04 22:11:00 -
[113]
The numbers don't seem to differentiate between actual loots and items/modules manufactured as a means to compress minerals for transport. Therefor the numbers aren't valid. Lots of people gather minerals in bulk, manufacture some low volume/high reprocess item, transport it to the target location, and reprocess them all back into minerals. Until we numbers on that we can't know how much an effect missioners are really having.
I don't think simply increasing mining yields is much of a solution, since it's pretty much just declaring a non-stop christmas for macroers. Reducing mineral yeilds from missions also isn't a solution, unless some other form of compensation is implemented at the same time. Otherwise all the mission runners will be complaining non-stop, and they are a large portion of the community.
I think the best possible solution, which has already been suggested above, is to remove some or all of the basic t1 loot and replace it, ideally with non-refinable rewards. Either a bounty/LP increase, or loot that can't be reprocessed such as implants, boosters, skillbooks, ect. A chance at faction items, which likely would be sold instead of reprocessed and can't be manufactured, could also work.
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Permadocked Panda
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Posted - 2009.02.04 22:20:00 -
[114]
Edited by: Permadocked Panda on 04/02/2009 22:21:43 As someone who makes a living almost exclusively by reprocessing mission runner loot I agree that mission running produces too many minerals.
The easiest fix is just to cut module refining by at least 25% - don't ever allow a perfect refine and you're better off.
Re: trit compression, force people to use the rorq, mmmmkay?
edit:
Originally by: Chaos Dreams The numbers don't seem to differentiate between actual loots and items/modules manufactured as a means to compress minerals for transport. Therefor the numbers aren't valid. Lots of people gather minerals in bulk, manufacture some low volume/high reprocess item, transport it to the target location, and reprocess them all back into minerals. Until we numbers on that we can't know how much an effect missioners are really having.
This is so true, we really need to see how much loot is coming in from missions - not minerals coming from compression or people buying stupid-priced **** for repro. |
Nadarius Chrome
Celestial Industrial Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.04 22:35:00 -
[115]
Most of the questions I have have already been asked (if not answered), but I feel I need to chip in.
Firstly yes, I am biased, as is everyone else in this thread. I mission far more than I mine. But merely removing or drastically reducing minerals obtained from missions would achieve little. There's peopel in here whining how empire is more profitable than 0.0 and nerfing highsec would move people out there. Well, sure, but if you ask around you'll find a lot of highsec inhabitants would like to move to nullsec but can't due to large alliances monopolising space and crushing any smaller players. Highsec is boring, but is the only place you can relatively safely build strength, numbers and resources for a move to 0.0. If what you want are more lemmings shoved headlong into 0.0 to act as fodder for existing alliances, then just say so.
T1 modules' only value comes from the minerals they contain. They don't drop in consistant enough types and numbers for them to be any use in T2 production. T2 producers just build the T1 mods required themselves. Heck, even Meta 1, 2 and sometimes 3 are worth only as much as the (reduced) minerals they drop. That's why a vanilla 1400mm howitzer is worth more than a 1400 carbine.
Another significant issue is the overuse of Trit. Trit nearly matches Pye in price now because construction demands it more than it should. The ratios are off. This not only makes Trit more valuable but suppresses the value of other minerals. 60% of Mex comes from loot because mining for mex is impractical and not worthwhile next to mining for trit. That percentage is just showing a symptom of deeper problems, not the cause.
I'm also surprised to see that 1% of morphite comes from reprocessed modules. People reprocess T2 modules? o.O |
nether void
Caldari Shrapnel Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.04 22:43:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Nadarius Chrome Another significant issue is the overuse of Trit. Trit nearly matches Pye in price now because construction demands it more than it should. The ratios are off. This not only makes Trit more valuable but suppresses the value of other minerals. 60% of Mex comes from loot because mining for mex is impractical and not worthwhile next to mining for trit. That percentage is just showing a symptom of deeper problems, not the cause.
Actually this very thing you're talking about is due to reprocessed mission loot. Especially Pyre and Mex issues. Remove T1 loot from missions, and it will reduce the issue drastically. I'm currently sitting on a ton of Pyre and Mex because I never use it all up. I've reprocessed loot for a long while, and while the Trit does get used quickly, so much Pyre and Mex (and Nocx) come from reprocessing mission loot, I've never had to buy any of it. --------------------
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2009.02.04 22:45:00 -
[117]
Originally by: LaVista Vista As per the CSM minutes
I find this worrying. I think this needs to be raised as an issue for in a few months.
What do you guys think? How should this be fixed?
Go rat in sansha space, and loot your wrecks
You can out produce a hulk by some outrageous factor - something like 3 or 4:1
Plus bounty, salvage, high meta loot..
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2009.02.04 22:47:00 -
[118]
Eliminate T1 drops
Convert rat meta 1-4 drops into BPCs
Introduce "enhanced" low-end ores into lo-sec and 0.0
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xxxak
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Posted - 2009.02.04 22:55:00 -
[119]
Originally by: LaVista Vista As per the CSM minutes
I find this worrying. I think this needs to be raised as an issue for in a few months.
What do you guys think? How should this be fixed?
You. Are. Wrong.
People actually LIKE missions. It is somewhat fun and somewhat entertaining.
Mining is not.
If you force more people to mine, some of them will just quit EVE.
BAD. |
nether void
Caldari Shrapnel Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.04 23:00:00 -
[120]
Originally by: xxxak
Originally by: LaVista Vista As per the CSM minutes
I find this worrying. I think this needs to be raised as an issue for in a few months.
What do you guys think? How should this be fixed?
You. Are. Wrong.
People actually LIKE missions. It is somewhat fun and somewhat entertaining.
Mining is not.
If you force more people to mine, some of them will just quit EVE.
BAD.
Changing the ISK value of running missions won't make them any more or less fun. They'll still be functionally the same. Nobody is forcing anybody to mine. If you want to make the most ISK/hr, you won't care if that's missioning or mining or whatever. So if you're missioning now because you like it, nerfing it's payout while buffing mining shouldn't bother you in the least. |
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