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Ugluuk
Caldari Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.02.04 21:59:00 -
[1]
It seems CCP have forgot that EVE also has a small percentage of people that enjoy player vs player activities.. Either it is solo pvp or huge fleet battles the quality of it have suffered major penaltys during the last year..Pvp in low sec should not be about looking for volunteers for a fight..It should be as scary as it was before, enter on own risk..Not enter and warp straight thru..
So here is my thought`s for PVP..
1 MASS REDUCTION and AGILITY
This became a reality in the last patch and was an attempt to get PVP back to normal by removing the nano ships.. CCP changed the mass and agility on ships and made their speeds more realistic..
BUT there is a problem: Before the patch a nano ship was too fast to be tackled when it ran from the gate. Now the ships are so fast to initiate warp that you cant scramble them at all unless you got a lachesis with you or 3 sensor boosters.. As an example i can use my own experience: Today i flew my Broadsword with dual sensor booster and scripts.. The gate i camped had 6 jump ins in 20 min:
Mastodon,Bustard,Prowler,Thorax,Caracal and Badger MkII
Mastodon aligned and cloaked..FAIL Bustard: Got lock on it in 3 systems but delay on disruptor let it fly all 3 times.FAIL Prowler: Cloaked and warped like it should with the bonuses.FAIL Thorax: Warped just as i got lock..FAIL Caracal: Didn`t even get lock before it warped..FAIL Badger MkII: SUCCESS..The only one i managed to get..
After this i used a Typhoon to roam and had a Dominix land on gate after me..I jumped, mwd`d back to gate and waited..he unlcoaked and i started locking..But before i could activate the disruptor he was in warp..
SOLUTION Add more mass to the ships again so that a battleship can lock and Scramble another battleship without using sensor booster..
2 STARGATES
In the new patch CCP made lots of new good looking star gates but there is a problem with those aswell.. Some of these gates are so huge that even a Lachesis have problems to tackle..That combined with the warp speed they got a Lach wont even get in range to tackle those that land far out..
SOLUTION As most fights are on gates and stations and not in belts anymore it is fair to say this is good for all pvp if we increase the size of the gates to make max range you can uncloak from gate 40km..This would make people chase targets again instead of giving up..
3. ELECTRONIC WARFARE
It is no secret that jamming takes up much more space in a PVP gang than it should have.. The winner of PVP fleet fights these days with few exeptions is more a Who got most falcons than who has best skills and tactics..My corp is just as bad as others and bring falcons whenever we can cause that is how Eve has turned out..But vs bigger gangs we may end up half the falcons they have and got to bail from a great fight..
SOLUTION It is obvious, make Falcon less likely to succeed..BB,Scorp and Rook also needs nerfing but not drastic as they dont have the cloak and is much more in danger of being primary targets as they show on scan..
What i just wrote as ideas is what i feel needs most priority to get pvp back to normal..If i gotta live with nanoships again so be it, atleast then we could tackle ships..
There is lots more that could be changed and other ways to change it so feel free to dicuss it in here and come with own ideas..
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LegendInMyOwnMind
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Posted - 2009.02.04 22:46:00 -
[2]
To your point about gatecamps, there is more to pvp than staring at a gate and hoping to lock someone that walks through. This being made harder doesnt bother me a bit. I do not believe it should be easy for a battleship to sit at a gate and lock people easily. I feel the same way about bigger gates. Pvp is already focused too much around gates. Bigger gates and faster aligns mean you need to get off the gate. Good.
As for falcons, anyone with sense knows they are too powerful atm. Even if you dont pvp yourself, all you need to do is just take a gander at eve videos and you see commentary on fleet fights mentioning things casually like "The 30 man fleet had 9 falcons", etc. The nerf will happen to the Falcon, its just a matter of being patient.
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Crussoin
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Posted - 2009.02.04 23:07:00 -
[3]
Originally by: LegendInMyOwnMind To your point about gatecamps, there is more to pvp than staring at a gate and hoping to lock someone that walks through. This being made harder doesnt bother me a bit. I do not believe it should be easy for a battleship to sit at a gate and lock people easily. I feel the same way about bigger gates. Pvp is already focused too much around gates. Bigger gates and faster aligns mean you need to get off the gate. Good.
Agreed. Gatecamping is camping--at a gate. Camping. Do you know why it's called camping? Because campers pitch tents in their pants when they sit there getting kills they wouldn't get in a million years if they had to take it to a belt or plex and actually employ some tactics. |
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.02.04 23:09:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Ephemeron on 04/02/2009 23:11:49 Huge stargates in 0.0 choke points are a great idea. The campers have it too easy at key choke points, this feature makes it harder for them, encouraging them to camp elsewhere.
However, in non-choke point systems, gates should remain small. Minmatar gates need to shrink about 10x. Huge gates should be strategically placed, they shouldn't appear in random places.
EDIT: I notice some people have unrealistic belief that PvP at a gate is somehow not real people and doesn't involve tactics. It's incredibly naive to think that way. Gates are there to force pvp to happen. Ganking farmers at belts or plexes is much less of real pvp. |
Ugluuk
Caldari Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.02.04 23:22:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Ugluuk on 04/02/2009 23:23:59
Originally by: LegendInMyOwnMind To your point about gatecamps, there is more to pvp than staring at a gate and hoping to lock someone that walks through. This being made harder doesnt bother me a bit. I do not believe it should be easy for a battleship to sit at a gate and lock people easily. I feel the same way about bigger gates. Pvp is already focused too much around gates. Bigger gates and faster aligns mean you need to get off the gate. Good.
As for falcons, anyone with sense knows they are too powerful atm. Even if you dont pvp yourself, all you need to do is just take a gander at eve videos and you see commentary on fleet fights mentioning things casually like "The 30 man fleet had 9 falcons", etc. The nerf will happen to the Falcon, its just a matter of being patient.
Im not talking about gatecamps in general..Im talking about catching people at gates.. The 5 years i have been pvp`ing i have always been against camping gates..It is boring and not a challenge..Im a old fashion solo pvp`er who fancies a roam.. But to test i took the broadsword out today to be able to throw some facts on the table instead of listening to what others might say..This time i did not chase people or miss lock cause i jumped in after them..I sat ready and waited..
You said pvp is already too much focused around gates but let me ask you this: Where do you feel pvp should be?
In a belt or at a planet?
Most fights you get by roaming..Maybe set destination 20 jumps and kill what you find on the way..And where do you find them? At the gates.. Then you chase em and maybe catch them in a asteroid belt when they try to escape..But almost all fights starts with the victim being seen at a gate..
A battleship should imo be able to lock another Battleship..That will maybe encourage people to go out more in battleships to get 1vs1 fights.. Even myself dont roam solo in a BS anymore as i cant lock anything..
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Crussoin
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Posted - 2009.02.04 23:49:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Ephemeron I notice some people have unrealistic belief that PvP at a gate is somehow not real people and doesn't involve tactics. It's incredibly naive to think that way. Gates are there to force pvp to happen. Ganking farmers at belts or plexes is much less of real pvp.
Come to think of it, you're right. Blobbing up and pushing the distributed win button on any non-blue that happens to jump in takes an incredible amount of skill and planning. Gatecampers are the elite commandos of EVE. They should probably receive some kind of an ISK stipend in recognition of their ingenuity and the depth of possibilities they create. Also, they help save time ganking farmers at belts and plexes by ganking them before they can reach those belts or plexes, which reduces server load and lag for everyone. Gatecamping ftw. |
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.02.04 23:57:00 -
[7]
Imagine you are going somewhere and come to a fork in a road. The road to your left is blocked by police. The road to your right is free. If you choose to go to the left road and then get arrested because you were too stupid and stubborn to wait or go elsewhere - it is your own stupidity. It's not that police were stupid, it's not that police are overpowered.
You are the stupid one. It is your lack of desire to think, use tactics, do any effort whatsoever that gets your killed. Gate campers are there to weed out the retards.
If gate campers did not provide this important service for EVE, it'd be full of dumb lazy people, it would be worse than WoW. |
Karrade Krise
Galatic P0RN Starz
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Posted - 2009.02.05 00:05:00 -
[8]
OP is so pointless, I strongly suspect he is completly clueless.
CCP Atlas - The Short Story - "With Quantum Rise, we kind of messed up the performance of the EVE client."
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Kaciana
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Posted - 2009.02.05 00:21:00 -
[9]
Gank squads suck. Smartbombers on the gate suck.
Cov ops should be the envy of all as far as getting around. That's their role.
Falcons and EWAR ships have their place and their roles as well. I think they are fine. Boost your signal if you don't like it. Remember, you don't always have to jam a jammer to render them ineffective. (sensor damp, drones, alpha)
it's good ships can escape at the gate, the chase is PVP.
I stand by the comment that a BS should be able to get away however, that is just wrong.
I don't really agree with cloakers being able to tackle though, IMO. They are scout ships.
How to improve PVP? Even the faction field. DPS vs. DPS. Jam vs. Jam (based on ship class)
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Nsfndaioa Busk'ty
Minmatar Pollution Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.05 00:24:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Karrade Krise OP is so pointless, I strongly suspect he is completly clueless.
Looking at your reply and your corp name i strongly suspect that you should have puberty problems to take care of instead of posting on a forum.
Eve is indeed full of ******s as Ephemeron said..PVP in Eve has changed to the worse but that is what happens when a game grows.. CCP dont enjoy the game they created anymore, they enjoy the money it gives and therefore listen to the majority whiners that pay..
Which is us industrialists.
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Kaciana
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Posted - 2009.02.05 00:28:00 -
[11]
LOL, nice.
The BEST part about eve is the people you get to interact with. No matter what your career choice is.
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Karrade Krise
Galatic P0RN Starz
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Posted - 2009.02.05 00:30:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Nsfndaioa Busk'ty
Originally by: Karrade Krise OP is so pointless, I strongly suspect he is completly clueless.
Looking at your reply and your corp name i strongly suspect that you should have puberty problems to take care of instead of posting on a forum.
Eve is indeed full of ******s as Ephemeron said..PVP in Eve has changed to the worse but that is what happens when a game grows.. CCP dont enjoy the game they created anymore, they enjoy the money it gives and therefore listen to the majority whiners that pay..
Which is us industrialists.
/Me adds another Mark to his Troll-Mobile
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Crussoin
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Posted - 2009.02.05 00:36:00 -
[13]
I'm pretty sure that many intelligent and diligent people have died to gatecamps filled with lazy idiots. |
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.02.05 01:39:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Crussoin I'm pretty sure that many intelligent and diligent people have died to gatecamps filled with lazy idiots.
Yes, because in a game like EVE, everybody dies sooner or later. It is inevitable and it is normal.
The question is - are they successful despite occasional losses? The smart people always get more kills than deaths. Smart carebears always make more money than they lose to pirates. |
adriaans
Amarr Ankaa.
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Posted - 2009.02.05 12:47:00 -
[15]
i very strongly agree with point 3, e-war. however i personally don't think gate camping = pvp. and i'm saying that as a -10 pirate...
btw, when i fly cruisers, i sure aint escaping FW assault frig gangs on gates...they have no problem locking me before i'm in warp... even worse with bigger ships... so tbh, agility is fine IMO, sure i loose targets now and then myself due to it, but trying to catch them further away is part of the fun :P -sig- Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr!
Originally by: UMEE if ure another fotm re-roller, then dont pvp. you'll fail.
QFT! |
Lt Angus
Caldari End Game. The Crimson Federation
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Posted - 2009.02.05 13:04:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Lt Angus on 05/02/2009 13:03:44
Originally by: Karrade Krise OP is so pointless, I strongly suspect he is completly clueless.
Did you just call Ugluuk clueless.... dude please resize your signature to the maximum allowed file size of 24000 bytes. Navigator Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2009.02.05 13:14:00 -
[17]
It should be balanced so that a single scan-res sensor booster on a similar sized ship achieves a lock. In the case of waiting for a prey the sensor booster becomes and offensive module and should yield a benefit. On the other hand, this gives the prey the option to fit agility mods to counter it if he anticipates the sensor boosted hostile.
The big gates are only between regions, and thus natural choke points. They are easily spotted using the map with regional colours, don't even think about trying to camp one of them without 5-10 man gang spread out all over. They are few and far between due to the region-gate thing so not really an issue if you ask me.
I was thinking more in the lines of making the gate entry points be limited to the half-sphere pointing towards the systems sun for all gates
ECM/eWar; discussed to death everywhere else, no point in addressing it here.
I do feel that smaller ships have and enormous advantage with the new mechanics, maybe even too big. BS should be fat, slow and heavy hitters requiring help if attacked by more agile opponents (AF Wolfpacks are bloody nasty) For BC and down the balance seems off with T2 cruisers dying to properly fitted T1 frigates .. that is not right, should get close but taking zero damage due to speed/sig/tracking is wrong.
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burek
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2009.02.05 13:35:00 -
[18]
Why are people so obsessed about OMG gate camps as soon as someone mentions a fight at a gate? Are you an idiot?
What about you see a war target undock and warp to gate, you chase, but can't lock him for ****. Or you scout someone coming few jumps away... where exactly should you be intercepting him instead of at a gate lol?
Ugluuk is correct on all his points but threads like this will continue falling on def ears. Oh and of course people with far less experience lecturing others :) |
Hatsumi Kobayashi
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.02.05 14:10:00 -
[19]
Not having had much experience with point 2 since the new stargates, I can't say anything about it, but I do agree with 1 and 3.
Sure, people will come and say that "blabla this is an mmo just team up blabla", but it doesn't change the fact that there is a lack of balance in ship agility and that ECM isa tad too widespread. |
DasDizzy
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.02.05 14:44:00 -
[20]
i wholeheartedely (sp?) agree with OPs posts |
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Karrade Krise
Galatic P0RN Starz
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Posted - 2009.02.05 19:36:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Lt Angus Edited by: Lt Angus on 05/02/2009 13:03:44
Originally by: Karrade Krise OP is so pointless, I strongly suspect he is completly clueless.
Did you just call Ugluuk clueless.... dude
All the more reason for the obsurdity of it
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Avoid
Gallente Vale Tudo. Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.06 05:05:00 -
[22]
About "MASS REDUCTION and AGILITY"
I agree whit Ugluuk on this one, Anny ship except ceptors, should be able to cach a ship of its own size, whitout the need of a sensor boster. Atm its pointless to go roaming in a bs, u cant catch annything.
About the size of stargates. Im not a big fan of the new stargates, yes they look cool but they are too big. You need to be right in the middle of them to have a chance for the target to be in range of your warp disrupter. Not the biggest problem if u had time to get on top of the gate, but it makes its very had to catch people on the run, cause the range u decloak from each other is higher. If you increase the size of stargates, it would be even harder to catch people. The reason why people dont chase that often annymore, is that you cant get a lock on things before they are in warp, and beeing on an other gate is not going to chance your locking speed.
About Jamming. It is just too powerfull atm. The solution imo. would be to incrase the effectivenes of eccm modules, especialy those for lowslots, so you would have more ways to make your ship resistenced agaist jamming.
Hot drops. Basicly when a cyno is created, there should be a delay or timer on something like 30 seconds, before things can jump to the cynofield. The fear of hot drops prevent alot of good fights to take place. It simply makes too risky for a 20 man gang to fight annything decent. |
oodin
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.02.06 14:31:00 -
[23]
Originally by: burek Why are people so obsessed about OMG gate camps as soon as someone mentions a fight at a gate? Are you an idiot?
What about you see a war target undock and warp to gate, you chase, but can't lock him for ****. Or you scout someone coming few jumps away... where exactly should you be intercepting him instead of at a gate lol?
Ugluuk is correct on all his points but threads like this will continue falling on def ears. Oh and of course people with far less experience lecturing others :)
yup |
H Lecter
Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2009.02.06 15:20:00 -
[24]
First of all thanks a lot Ugluuk for a thread that does not mention BoB!
Regarding your points:
1) I am very happy about the agility changes as I have no scout alt and still love soloing in my Ishkur. Cruisers may align a bit too fast still, but they can be caught by a HIC - 3 mid slot sensor boosters plus 2 sensor booster rigs allow you even to catch most frigates - you need to specialize to be really good at something, even when your shiptype is specialized already. What I personally hate most are the cov ops cloaks on haulers. Transporting valuable goods in huge quantities is almost fool proof.
2) CCP wants regional gates to be almost impossible to camp - we all know that from our own experience. While it sucks when your favourite target slips through and escapes it should bring some of the fights back to belts/planets/plexes - there you can warp in a ceptor to tackle without fearing gate guns.
3) Yes, Falcons enjoy too much popularity these days and I hate going on a roam without ECM. However, I'm against nerfing them but rather buffing counters. An interesting proposal has been made elsewhere - don't know which thread it was. Mainly it was about changing the dampening strenght bonus of the Arazu to a dampening range one, so you would be able to reasonably dampen a falcon at 200 km in falloff (not at each cycle, but enough to greatly reduce the efficiency with only one damp per falcon).
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