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Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.06 21:58:00 -
[151]
Edited by: Thann Starlinbow on 06/02/2009 21:58:38
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow How cute. Another real-world analogy that doesn't apply to a game.
Also, keep insulting my intelligence, guys. It makes me laugh.[/quote
Then let me give you an example directly from the game.
I am currently training my way to Mining Barge 5. Eve Mon suggested I trained a slew of learning skills ahead of time and I went, like I expect most people do "Crap. I don't want to train those".
Then I started looking at the numbers.
Training those skills, which yes, took me a week or more, actually saved me ten days on the overall training plan - including the new learning skills. So not only did it pay for itself, it will continue to pay for itself as I train more advanced skills.
Is that related to the game closely enough for you?
--Vel
Yes, that's *exactly* my point. You said "Damnit, I don't want to train those learning skills, they're no fun. I want to be training for better skills instead!"
So why not remove the learning skills, boost everyones base attributes and be done with it. Learning skills are not fun, offer no real choice (you lose either way. either train unfun learning skills or train slower) and are not needed.
Thanks for backing my point up for me. |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2009.02.06 22:24:00 -
[152]
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow How cute. Another real-world analogy that doesn't apply to a game.
Also, keep insulting my intelligence, guys. It makes me laugh.[/quote
Then let me give you an example directly from the game.
I am currently training my way to Mining Barge 5. Eve Mon suggested I trained a slew of learning skills ahead of time and I went, like I expect most people do "Crap. I don't want to train those".
Then I started looking at the numbers.
Training those skills, which yes, took me a week or more, actually saved me ten days on the overall training plan - including the new learning skills. So not only did it pay for itself, it will continue to pay for itself as I train more advanced skills.
Is that related to the game closely enough for you?
--Vel
OP doesn't know how to read.... or think... your wasting your time.
Nicely said tho. |
De'Veldrin
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Posted - 2009.02.06 22:46:00 -
[153]
I know. I'm a glutton for punishment.
@Thann Starlinbow I think you're misunderstanding my point. I didn't have to train those skills. I could have just left well enough alone. By choosing to train them, I accelerated my overall training plan. Was it fun? Meh - fun is a subjective measurement. To a lot of people mining isn't fun. But they do it because it's profitable. So was training the learning skills. If you don't find them profitable, don't train them. |
Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.06 22:46:00 -
[154]
Edited by: Thann Starlinbow on 06/02/2009 22:49:41
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow How cute. Another real-world analogy that doesn't apply to a game.
Also, keep insulting my intelligence, guys. It makes me laugh.[/quote
Then let me give you an example directly from the game.
I am currently training my way to Mining Barge 5. Eve Mon suggested I trained a slew of learning skills ahead of time and I went, like I expect most people do "Crap. I don't want to train those".
Then I started looking at the numbers.
Training those skills, which yes, took me a week or more, actually saved me ten days on the overall training plan - including the new learning skills. So not only did it pay for itself, it will continue to pay for itself as I train more advanced skills.
Is that related to the game closely enough for you?
--Vel
OP doesn't know how to read.... or think... your wasting your time.
Nicely said tho.
Hey guy, I know you think you're really clever and stuff, especially with the insults, but you're not.
If the Learning skills were removed and attributes boosted then it would result in the same thing except you never have to train the learning skills in the first place.
edit: furthermore, 'you're'. Not 'your'. |
Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.06 22:49:00 -
[155]
Originally by: De'Veldrin I know. I'm a glutton for punishment.
@Thann Starlinbow I think you're misunderstanding my point. I didn't have to train those skills. I could have just left well enough alone. By choosing to train them, I accelerated my overall training plan. Was it fun? Meh - fun is a subjective measurement. To a lot of people mining isn't fun. But they do it because it's profitable. So was training the learning skills. If you don't find them profitable, don't train them.
I realize what you're saying. However, that doesn't make them any less unnecessary. If they were removed from the game and everyones base attributes boosted, it results in the same outcome, minus the "I have to train learning skills" part, which a lot of people find boring and dull.
What part of that is bad?
And please don't come back with "CHOICEZ". It's not a real choice. |
Nnamuachs
Caldari Kiith Paktu Veneratio Venator Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.06 22:56:00 -
[156]
I still don't see the argument behind boosting everyones base attributes tbh. At one point there were no advanced learning skills.. so why not just boost by +5? at one point there were "no" learning skills.. so why boost at all if you're going to remove them.. your logic is you want to train faster without having any sort of work that goes into it. |
Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.02.07 00:50:00 -
[157]
Just get rid of them, give everyone the 12ish points you would have for max learning skills and then only character creation and implants would affect your attributes.
Oh and please find a way to give the vets a way to get the SP back. |
George K'ntara
Angel Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.02.07 00:52:00 -
[158]
I support this idea. Get rid of them give us the points instead, and figure out a way to give older players their SP back. |
Raging George
Krell-Korp
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Posted - 2009.02.07 00:53:00 -
[159]
I support this proposal. |
Saralle Zhukov
Win Tech
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Posted - 2009.02.07 01:19:00 -
[160]
Absolutely 100% support this. I had a friend that tried a trial account and the whole concept of the training skills just drove him nuts. Remove this tedious waste of time. I hated training them. Have one character maxed and one not quite maxed and I don't care if they train faster or not.
----------------------------------- Kill them all God will know his own. |
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.02.07 01:40:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Saralle Zhukov Have one character maxed and one not quite maxed and I don't care if they train faster or not.
That seems to be evidence that it is indeed a choice. I made the same choice. |
Kalia Masaer
Rosa Castellum
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Posted - 2009.02.07 02:38:00 -
[162]
I see both points of the issue and really see both as a good and a bad thing. I cannot personally see a reason to remove them nor can I see a reason not to remove them. They encourage an older and more mature player base who is willing to tough out the time it takes to pick them up, but they also discourage people who may have toughed it out if they realize how much fun the games is after that boring time.
I do like the idea of being rewarded for being patient and willing to take the time to learn them, but perhaps they go to far. Maybe the first tier one attribute specific learning skills should be remove and players just recieve 5 more points on there attrubutes. But keep learning and the second tier skills to reward those who have the patience to be rewarded. This would mean new characters would not lag so far behind if they trained up enough other skills to have some fun before they realized the benefit of the learning skills. |
Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
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Posted - 2009.02.07 02:43:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Kalia Masaer I see both points of the issue and really see both as a good and a bad thing. I cannot personally see a reason to remove them nor can I see a reason not to remove them. They encourage an older and more mature player base who is willing to tough out the time it takes to pick them up, but they also discourage people who may have toughed it out if they realize how much fun the games is after that boring time.
I do like the idea of being rewarded for being patient and willing to take the time to learn them, but perhaps they go to far. Maybe the first tier one attribute specific learning skills should be remove and players just recieve 5 more points on there attrubutes. But keep learning and the second tier skills to reward those who have the patience to be rewarded. This would mean new characters would not lag so far behind if they trained up enough other skills to have some fun before they realized the benefit of the learning skills.
It's more than that though. The learning skills provide a specific alternative to Implants, i.e. invested time over instand gratification.
There are more arguments to keep the skills than to remove them.
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BalZaak Swinging
Minmatar Raptor Legion Veneratio Venator Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.07 03:59:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: Kalia Masaer I see both points of the issue and really see both as a good and a bad thing. I cannot personally see a reason to remove them nor can I see a reason not to remove them. They encourage an older and more mature player base who is willing to tough out the time it takes to pick them up, but they also discourage people who may have toughed it out if they realize how much fun the games is after that boring time.
I do like the idea of being rewarded for being patient and willing to take the time to learn them, but perhaps they go to far. Maybe the first tier one attribute specific learning skills should be remove and players just recieve 5 more points on there attrubutes. But keep learning and the second tier skills to reward those who have the patience to be rewarded. This would mean new characters would not lag so far behind if they trained up enough other skills to have some fun before they realized the benefit of the learning skills.
It's more than that though. The learning skills provide a specific alternative to Implants, i.e. invested time over instand gratification.
There are more arguments to keep the skills than to remove them.
qft
it all matters in the long run. As another poster said that when he added additional learning to his que, his training time shortened. |
SlaveTransport Kiriin
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Posted - 2009.02.07 04:53:00 -
[165]
I support this fully!
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Brick Hampton
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Posted - 2009.02.07 10:52:00 -
[166]
Give us (old and new) +10 to all attributes to make up for the loss of books and i'm all for it.
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Miner Nine
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.02.07 11:13:00 -
[167]
Can we all just get +20, seriously.
They raise the cost of the game, might as well make everything train faster. |
Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.02.07 13:32:00 -
[168]
The arguements for removing the learning skills, no matter how deftly worded, all seem to boil down to: "Make it faster! Make it easier!"
Still not supported. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic |
Cormac MacAair
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Posted - 2009.02.07 13:54:00 -
[169]
Agreed.
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De'Veldrin
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Posted - 2009.02.07 14:07:00 -
[170]
Having slept on the topic, I would be willing to offer support for an idea that I think someone else suggested earlier in this thread. Remove the learning skills from the active part of the game and make them part of character creation, but without raising the total number of skill points new characters get.
It seems like an adequate compromise. Old characters don't lose what they have already invested, and new players don't have the dreariness of actively training them. What this would basically do is move the choice of whether to train learning skills into the character creation process, at the expensive of some of the more advanced skills that new characters get. Once they enter the game, those skills are then fixed.
The idea of moving learning skills, I would be willing to support, as long as old players have enough warning to train them before they get shifted. The idea of just dumping them I am still against.
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Greme
Amarr Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.07 14:10:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri The arguements for removing the learning skills, no matter how deftly worded, all seem to boil down to: "Make it faster! Make it easier!"
Still not supported.
Faster may be a correct word to use, but easier is not. Easier suggests that it take alot of effort to click "train".
But nitpicking for the sake of it aside, most of the arguments against it seem to revolve around the keeping of choice, even if thise choice is in fact a Morton's Fork. Both outcomes of learning skills are undesireable, and are only undertaken because of only having two choices, this is real fun gaming material!
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Neesa Corrinne
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2009.02.07 14:24:00 -
[172]
This idea comes up every few months, and no matter how the new person spins it, it always boils down to:
I WANT IT NOOWWWW
I simply can't condone this behavior. I had the patience to train them, thousands of other people have had the patience to train them, and those that don't; leave. Good riddance, sir! ---------------------------------
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StarStryder
Zero-Hour
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Posted - 2009.02.07 14:31:00 -
[173]
Edited by: StarStryder on 07/02/2009 14:36:18 Personally it bother me either way. I've done the training, it's in the past. That said, I can not see what the learning skills bring to game other than tedium.
Someone said earlier that all skill training is boring. Not true. Waiting for a ship skill to complete has a sense of anticipation, something that draws people in. The learning skills do nothing in this regard.
The only caveat is that if they are removed then anyone that has them trained needs to have the ability to reallocate the sp. |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2009.02.07 15:13:00 -
[174]
Originally by: De'Veldrin Having slept on the topic, I would be willing to offer support for an idea that I think someone else suggested earlier in this thread. Remove the learning skills from the active part of the game and make them part of character creation, but without raising the total number of skill points new characters get.
It seems like an adequate compromise. Old characters don't lose what they have already invested, and new players don't have the dreariness of actively training them. What this would basically do is move the choice of whether to train learning skills into the character creation process, at the expensive of some of the more advanced skills that new characters get. Once they enter the game, those skills are then fixed.
The idea of moving learning skills, I would be willing to support, as long as old players have enough warning to train them before they get shifted. The idea of just dumping them I am still against.
This.... if it was going to get taken away.... then the balance along with game mechanics should not be messed with.
SP's should not be raised.. nor lower as a result of them being removed.
Otherwise your screwing with players who have put the time in for those learning skills regardless of what you can dream up for an excuse to have them removed. =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com =============== |
Siegmund Neumann
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Posted - 2009.02.07 18:20:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Tarminic Kill them with fire. I don't care that I'll lose SP. They are the biggest waste of time and a completely arbitrary timesink that discourages new players. New players should be discouraged by the fact that New Eden is a cold, harsh world, not because you have to spend a month essentially training nothing so you can be competitive.
QFT
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Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
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Posted - 2009.02.07 18:34:00 -
[176]
Originally by: StarStryder Edited by: StarStryder on 07/02/2009 14:36:18 Personally it bother me either way. I've done the training, it's in the past. That said, I can not see what the learning skills bring to game other than tedium.
Someone said earlier that all skill training is boring. Not true. Waiting for a ship skill to complete has a sense of anticipation, something that draws people in. The learning skills do nothing in this regard.
The only caveat is that if they are removed then anyone that has them trained needs to have the ability to reallocate the sp.
It's interesting you mention this, because they do something in that regard. They shave off time from every skill they are related to. I have friends who are all new to the game, and they love training one or two levels in learning skills to speed up lvl 4s and 5s.
Most of the people in this thread arguing for the removal of the skills either don't understand the balance they form attribute wise, or they are simply looking for an easier game.
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StarStryder
Zero-Hour
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Posted - 2009.02.07 18:42:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: StarStryder Edited by: StarStryder on 07/02/2009 14:36:18 Personally it bother me either way. I've done the training, it's in the past. That said, I can not see what the learning skills bring to game other than tedium.
Someone said earlier that all skill training is boring. Not true. Waiting for a ship skill to complete has a sense of anticipation, something that draws people in. The learning skills do nothing in this regard.
The only caveat is that if they are removed then anyone that has them trained needs to have the ability to reallocate the sp.
It's interesting you mention this, because they do something in that regard. They shave off time from every skill they are related to. I have friends who are all new to the game, and they love training one or two levels in learning skills to speed up lvl 4s and 5s.
Most of the people in this thread arguing for the removal of the skills either don't understand the balance they form attribute wise, or they are simply looking for an easier game.
To be fair, I've only gone through this once as I don't use alts too much. Back then I had to do basics 5 to get the advanced skills. Might be less tedious these days.
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Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
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Posted - 2009.02.07 18:45:00 -
[178]
Originally by: StarStryder
To be fair, I've only gone through this once as I don't use alts too much. Back then I had to do basics 5 to get the advanced skills. Might be less tedious these days.
Yes, the first time they changed the skills because of the tedium, they made the adv skill requirements basics lvl 4. So yeah it has gotten way better. You can get a good +8 in any skill, with way elss training than it used to require.
I feel as though the learning skills have been messed with enough. To remove them entirely or nerf them further would upset a balance.
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Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.07 18:51:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: StarStryder Edited by: StarStryder on 07/02/2009 14:36:18 Personally it bother me either way. I've done the training, it's in the past. That said, I can not see what the learning skills bring to game other than tedium.
Someone said earlier that all skill training is boring. Not true. Waiting for a ship skill to complete has a sense of anticipation, something that draws people in. The learning skills do nothing in this regard.
The only caveat is that if they are removed then anyone that has them trained needs to have the ability to reallocate the sp.
It's interesting you mention this, because they do something in that regard. They shave off time from every skill they are related to. I have friends who are all new to the game, and they love training one or two levels in learning skills to speed up lvl 4s and 5s.
Most of the people in this thread arguing for the removal of the skills either don't understand the balance they form attribute wise, or they are simply looking for an easier game.
You keep saying this like it means something because you're to stupid to actually think about what anyone else is saying. If they remove the Learning skills and boost attributes at the same time, then it's the same thing as not having to train those learning skills to 'train another skill faster and shave off time'.
But keep repeating it, maybe you can convince people by repeating it over and over.
Like Greme said earlier, the Learning skills are not a real choice. They're just something you lose out on, no matter which choice you make. It's like making a choice between getting punched in the nose or getting punched in the gut.
Personally, I'd rather choose to eat ice cream.
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Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
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Posted - 2009.02.07 19:12:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
You keep saying this like it means something because you're to stupid to actually think about what anyone else is saying. If they remove the Learning skills and boost attributes at the same time, then it's the same thing as not having to train those learning skills to 'train another skill faster and shave off time'.
But keep repeating it, maybe you can convince people by repeating it over and over.
Like Greme said earlier, the Learning skills are not a real choice. They're just something you lose out on, no matter which choice you make. It's like making a choice between getting punched in the nose or getting punched in the gut.
Personally, I'd rather choose to eat ice cream.
You're a Myopic imbecile.
Removing the learning skills and simply boosting everyone's attributes is just as pointless as removing them and LOWERING everyone's attribute points. If all you want is a short, easier, game - perhaps you should go play something else.
Whether you like it or not the skills and how they are trained are a choice. It's a choice between time-investment with the skills, and cash investment with implants. You can dress it up all you like, and say it's not a choice, but thats arguing semantics. Not reality.
You're a fool, and trying to argue with me just shows all the little leaks in your Failboat. |
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