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Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.05 15:05:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Thann Starlinbow on 05/02/2009 15:09:00 With CCP doing a lot for the 'New Player Experience', I think one of the best things they could do would be to remove the epic waste of time and hugely boring timesink that we call Learning skills.
I can't think of a single person that thinks they are in any way 'fun' to train. And everyone tells new players "You need to train your learning skills now!" essentially keeping them from training more 'fun' things in their first month or two of game play. I imagine many people have decided "Eh, forget it" and quit the game over this.
So I'd like to propose a removal of the Learning skills. IF POSSIBLE, vets should have the skillpoints refunded and allow them to place it wherever they want. If that is to technically complicated, then just remove them.
Boost everyones attributes by 8-9 points and be done with this terrible timesink of a 'skilltree'.
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Tarminic
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2009.02.05 15:13:00 -
[2]
Kill them with fire. I don't care that I'll lose SP. They are the biggest waste of time and a completely arbitrary timesink that discourages new players. New players should be discouraged by the fact that New Eden is a cold, harsh world, not because you have to spend a month essentially training nothing so you can be competitive. |
Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.02.05 15:15:00 -
[3]
The decision to train or not train learning skills is up to the individual (I know I didn't max them out first thing, and I still have a some to training to do to make them perfect after 3 years playing).
The best real-world analogy would be "the learning skills are like saving money". The sooner you start saving, the more the interest compounds over the long term. However, you can't have any fun with the money you are saving. Make a decision.
Leave it alone. Leave it a decision for each pilot.
Not supported. |
Nexus Kinnon
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2009.02.05 15:15:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Tarminic Kill them with fire. I don't care that I'll lose SP. They are the biggest waste of time and a completely arbitrary timesink that discourages new players. New players should be discouraged by the fact that New Eden is a cold, harsh world, not because you have to spend a month essentially training nothing so you can be competitive.
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Thann Starlinbow
Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.05 15:15:00 -
[5]
I thought it was funnier the way you put it on SHC, Tarm. ;) |
van Uber
SAE Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.05 15:17:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Tarminic Kill them with fire. I don't care that I'll lose SP. They are the biggest waste of time and a completely arbitrary timesink that discourages new players. New players should be discouraged by the fact that New Eden is a cold, harsh world, not because you have to spend a month essentially training nothing so you can be competitive.
If I never see my SP again. So be it. |
Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.05 15:17:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri The decision to train or not train learning skills is up to the individual (I know I didn't max them out first thing, and I still have a some to training to do to make them perfect after 3 years playing).
The best real-world analogy would be "the learning skills are like saving money". The sooner you start saving, the more the interest compounds over the long term. However, you can't have any fun with the money you are saving. Make a decision.
Leave it alone. Leave it a decision for each pilot.
Not supported.
So what you're saying is that a pilot fresh to the game should 'save' his money and not have any fun with it, essentially encouraging him to quit because the game is boring?
Terrible reason, sir. |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2009.02.05 15:19:00 -
[8]
Reasoning is too weak for this proposal.
Not supported. |
Morel Nova
z3r0 Gravity Fluidic Anti-Gravity
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Posted - 2009.02.05 15:20:00 -
[9]
I hate having to tell new players to just sit on their asses and train learning skills, so yeah, remove them completely and give everyone the attribute increase. I dont care if I loose SP or if it gets refunded (would be nice of course) but it would truly be better for the game if there were no learning skills. |
Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.05 15:22:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Drake Draconis Reasoning is too weak for this proposal.
Not supported.
Exactly how is 'Learning skills are not fun at all, add nothing to the game and actively discourage new players from staying' weak? |
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Tarminic
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2009.02.05 15:23:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri The decision to train or not train learning skills is up to the individual (I know I didn't max them out first thing, and I still have a some to training to do to make them perfect after 3 years playing).
The best real-world analogy would be "the learning skills are like saving money". The sooner you start saving, the more the interest compounds over the long term. However, you can't have any fun with the money you are saving. Make a decision.
Leave it alone. Leave it a decision for each pilot.
Not supported.
So say you're going to an amusement park. You can either enter the theme park now, but you have to walk half as fast as you normally do to the rides and pay twice as much for food. Or you can wait outside for 6 hours, and be able to walk normally once you get in and pay the normal price for food.
Now, are you more likely to: 1. Go in immediately 2. Wait outside 3. Find an amusement park that doesn't arbitrarily punish you for wanting to ride the rides |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2009.02.05 15:29:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 05/02/2009 15:29:30
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
Originally by: Drake Draconis Reasoning is too weak for this proposal.
Not supported.
Exactly how is 'Learning skills are not fun at all, add nothing to the game and actively discourage new players from staying' weak?
Trying using that gray matter in your skull.
So you eliminate learning skills..... nothing changes. starting skill points get boosted for the char that gets started. Whoopee right?
leaving them alone harms no one either.
too weak of a proposal. There are more important matters to resolve.
Not supported.
This is the same arguing if there's a point to have rookie ships or not. Useless to everyone... cant reprocess... cant sell back.... only get's used when you start the game... rather have just a pod or something or better yet a shuttle.
Its an argument that goes nowhere real quick because its a waste of everyones bloody time.
Your just sore because you want more skill points for free or little time. That's the truth of the matter here.
If you don't like them... then don't train them... DUH! =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com =============== |
Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.02.05 15:33:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Santiago Fahahrri on 05/02/2009 15:33:16
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow So what you're saying is that a pilot fresh to the game should 'save' his money and not have any fun with it, essentially encouraging him to quit because the game is boring?
Terrible reason, sir.
That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying it's an individual decsion. I said that I still haven't finished all of my learning skills. I like to balance saving my money with enjoying it, so to speak.
Those who choose to invest should be rewarded with the gains. Those who choose to party should be rewarded with the fun.
Taking away the decision is not Eve.
~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic |
Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.05 15:34:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Drake Draconis Edited by: Drake Draconis on 05/02/2009 15:29:30
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
Originally by: Drake Draconis Reasoning is too weak for this proposal.
Not supported.
Exactly how is 'Learning skills are not fun at all, add nothing to the game and actively discourage new players from staying' weak?
Trying using that gray matter in your skull.
So you eliminate learning skills..... nothing changes. starting skill points get boosted for the char that gets started. Whoopee right?
leaving them alone harms no one either.
too weak of a proposal. There are more important matters to resolve.
Not supported.
This is the same arguing if there's a point to have rookie ships or not. Useless to everyone... cant reprocess... cant sell back.... only get's used when you start the game... rather have just a pod or something or better yet a shuttle.
Its an argument that goes nowhere real quick because its a waste of everyones bloody time.
Your just sore because you want more skill points for free or little time. That's the truth of the matter here.
If you don't like them... then don't train them... DUH!
Look, I've been playing this game for three years now. I got my Learning skills out of the way a LONG time ago and I don't care if they remove them and I never see the SP again. Check my character out in game if you don't believe me. This is about the new player experience.
Learning skills are a horrible waste of time that only discourages people from playing because they arn't training the 'fun' skills that allow them to fly new ships or use new modules.
Rookie ships serve a purpose because you have to start somewhere. Learning skills serve no purpose other than "You have to train this skill to be competitive, but it doesn't help you in any other way, nor is it fun."
Try again.
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Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.05 15:35:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Edited by: Santiago Fahahrri on 05/02/2009 15:33:16
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow So what you're saying is that a pilot fresh to the game should 'save' his money and not have any fun with it, essentially encouraging him to quit because the game is boring?
Terrible reason, sir.
That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying it's an individual decsion. I said that I still haven't finished all of my learning skills. I like to balance saving my money with enjoying it, so to speak.
Those who choose to invest should be rewarded with the gains. Those who choose to party should be rewarded with the fun.
Taking away the decision is not Eve.
Terrible reasoning. Every rookie that joins the game is told "You HAVE to train learning skills or you won't be competetive." So everyone does, because no one wants their character to fall behind and everyone wants to advance as fast as possible.
but these skills are NOT fun to train and discourage people from staying with the game.
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Pattern Clarc
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Posted - 2009.02.05 15:38:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 05/02/2009 15:38:14
____
My Blog Is Awesome
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2009.02.05 15:39:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 05/02/2009 15:40:15
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
Originally by: Drake Draconis Edited by: Drake Draconis on 05/02/2009 15:29:30
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
Originally by: Drake Draconis Reasoning is too weak for this proposal.
Not supported.
Exactly how is 'Learning skills are not fun at all, add nothing to the game and actively discourage new players from staying' weak?
Trying using that gray matter in your skull.
So you eliminate learning skills..... nothing changes. starting skill points get boosted for the char that gets started. Whoopee right?
leaving them alone harms no one either.
too weak of a proposal. There are more important matters to resolve.
Not supported.
This is the same arguing if there's a point to have rookie ships or not. Useless to everyone... cant reprocess... cant sell back.... only get's used when you start the game... rather have just a pod or something or better yet a shuttle.
Its an argument that goes nowhere real quick because its a waste of everyones bloody time.
Your just sore because you want more skill points for free or little time. That's the truth of the matter here.
If you don't like them... then don't train them... DUH!
Look, I've been playing this game for three years now. I got my Learning skills out of the way a LONG time ago and I don't care if they remove them and I never see the SP again. Check my character out in game if you don't believe me. This is about the new player experience.
Learning skills are a horrible waste of time that only discourages people from playing because they arn't training the 'fun' skills that allow them to fly new ships or use new modules.
Rookie ships serve a purpose because you have to start somewhere. Learning skills serve no purpose other than "You have to train this skill to be competitive, but it doesn't help you in any other way, nor is it fun."
Try again.
Your argument is completely based on discouragement.
Fine.... take it further...
how long does it take to train up to an Hulk? How about a Marauder? How about a Black Ops Ship? A Carrier?
Oops... did I strike a nerve?
How about you plug your brain in... before you start spouting off.
People leave this game for weeks on end for those skills... learning skills being in... or out... changes nothing.
come up with a valid argument.. and you'll get my support.. otherwise go bug someone else. =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com =============== |
Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.02.05 15:44:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow Every rookie that joins the game is told "You HAVE to train learning skills or you won't be competetive." So everyone does, because no one wants their character to fall behind and everyone wants to advance as fast as possible.
Obviously not everyone does. I didn't. Yes, I heard that advice.
I made my own decision. I'm not a sheep.
Eve is about hard decisions that have real consquences. Taking away from that would be bad.
I'm sure there are other pilots out there who don't take all of the advice given to them. I highly encourage more people to try thinking for themselves from time to time. :) ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic |
Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.05 15:44:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Your argument is completely based on discouragement.
Fine.... take it further...
how long does it take to train up to an Hulk? How about a Marauder? How about a Black Ops Ship? A Carrier?
Oops... did I strike a nerve?
How about you plug your brain in... before you start spouting off.
People leave this game for weeks on end for those skills... learning skills being in... or out... changes nothing.
come up with a valid argument.. and you'll get my support.. otherwise go bug someone else.
*Facepalm*
You don't see the difference between training to be able to fly a ship.. going "Oooh, I can fly X in another 3 days!" and training a skill.. that lets you train better?
If you can't see the difference, you're not worth discussing it with. Get out.
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Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.05 15:46:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow Every rookie that joins the game is told "You HAVE to train learning skills or you won't be competetive." So everyone does, because no one wants their character to fall behind and everyone wants to advance as fast as possible.
Obviously not everyone does. I didn't. Yes, I heard that advice.
I made my own decision. I'm not a sheep.
Eve is about hard decisions that have real consquences. Taking away from that would be bad.
I'm sure there are other pilots out there who don't take all of the advice given to them. I highly encourage more people to try thinking for themselves from time to time. :)
This doesn't take away from the 'hard decisions' of EVE. Learning skills are just a useless time sink.
New players shouldn't quit because of "I have to train for over a month just to learn to train skills?"
They should quit because "Man, this game is HARSH. I just lost my 3b isk faction battleship!!"
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whydirt
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Posted - 2009.02.05 15:48:00 -
[21]
Edited by: whydirt on 05/02/2009 15:48:52 Get rid of them. It's one thing to add in timesink skills for veteran players to open up high-level ships and equipment, but the whole Learning skills group is tedious, boring, and scares away new players.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.02.05 15:51:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow [ New players shouldn't quit because of "I have to train for over a month just to learn to train skills?"
They should quit because "Man, this game is HARSH. I just lost my 3b isk faction battleship!!"
They don't *have* to train the learning skills first man.
Newbies shouldn't have 3billion anything ships.
Eve isn't supposed to be that easy. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic |
Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.05 15:55:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow [ New players shouldn't quit because of "I have to train for over a month just to learn to train skills?"
They should quit because "Man, this game is HARSH. I just lost my 3b isk faction battleship!!"
They don't *have* to train the learning skills first man.
Newbies shouldn't have 3billion anything ships.
Eve isn't supposed to be that easy.
I was obviously using hyperbole to prove my point. Don't take the arguement litereally.
Yes, they don't *HAVE* to train them first.. but with almost everyone telling them they should and telling them how "you'll fall behind if you don't train this useless timesink of an unfun skill" most of them do.. or quit.
That's the point.
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Greme
Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.05 16:00:00 -
[24]
As an 04 player and thus one who may lose out from this, I still heartily endorse this.
For a newbie, having to train to be able to train properly is so ******ed that it drives a great deal of friendly newbies away :/
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Vladmier
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Posted - 2009.02.05 16:05:00 -
[25]
Support added! It's a stupid idea, and a real turn-off for newcomers to the game.
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Esmenet
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Posted - 2009.02.05 16:06:00 -
[26]
Learning skills are boring. But i'd like to see those that spent a lot of sp in learning skills get a refund for them.
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Vladmier
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Posted - 2009.02.05 16:14:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Drake Draconis Edited by: Drake Draconis on 05/02/2009 15:29:30
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
Originally by: Drake Draconis Reasoning is too weak for this proposal.
Not supported.
Exactly how is 'Learning skills are not fun at all, add nothing to the game and actively discourage new players from staying' weak?
Trying using that gray matter in your skull.
So you eliminate learning skills..... nothing changes. starting skill points get boosted for the char that gets started. Whoopee right?
leaving them alone harms no one either.
too weak of a proposal. There are more important matters to resolve.
Not supported.
This is the same arguing if there's a point to have rookie ships or not. Useless to everyone... cant reprocess... cant sell back.... only get's used when you start the game... rather have just a pod or something or better yet a shuttle.
Its an argument that goes nowhere real quick because its a waste of everyones bloody time.
Your just sore because you want more skill points for free or little time. That's the truth of the matter here.
If you don't like them... then don't train them... DUH!
You sir have THE WORST logic.
The point being made, is that new people are forced to train for skills which do NOTHING apart from making them able to train other skills at the same rate as people already in game. If you don't train them, you fall behind as a newbie. If you DO train them you'll be able to train skills quicker later on, but for your first month, you are unable to fly anything other than a burst. It's a lose lose situation.
It is completely NOT the same as training for skills that let you use new guns and ships, because these skills actually lead to an end product rather than an acquisition of attributes, and thus the new players can think "Oh hay, I'll actually be able to fly that cool rifter soon!".
Originally by: Drake Draconis So you eliminate learning skills..... nothing changes. starting skill points get boosted for the char that gets started. Whoopee right?
leaving them alone harms no one either.
Nothing changes for the new players apart from they do not have to get bored out of their wits for the first month. I know personally of friends who left the game because of this ******ed mechanism. They were even told that you don't need to train learning skills for the first month just to try out new ships, but the fact kept coming back to them that eventually they'd have to train what is, for all intents and purposes, a skill designed to waste time.
And to those saying "you just want to gain some SP". I have no qualms with me ending up the worst for this, by receiving no "free SP". I do not care if my skills just magically disappear and get replaced by attributes, because after years of playing this game, the effect is not great in the grand scheme of things. And the effect is certainly alot lower than the positive effect to newbies. |
Troubadour
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2009.02.05 16:25:00 -
[28]
I agree. Eve is already overwhelming enough to new players. Training many noobs in the past one of the primary goals of mine was to keep them interested in the game, especially through those first 2-3 months when it can be at times a difficult learning experience. Telling them in addition to a steep learning curve, they have to spend 2-3 weeks training essentially NOTHING doesn't help any.
Remove these pointless time-sink skills, give everyone an 8-9 point attribute boost, and leave it at that.
~signed
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Aloriana Jacques
Amarr Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2009.02.05 16:51:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri The decision to train or not train learning skills is up to the individual (I know I didn't max them out first thing, and I still have a some to training to do to make them perfect after 3 years playing).
The best real-world analogy would be "the learning skills are like saving money". The sooner you start saving, the more the interest compounds over the long term. However, you can't have any fun with the money you are saving. Make a decision.
Leave it alone. Leave it a decision for each pilot.
Not supported.
QFT. - - - Aloriana Jacques - Skill Sheet
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Mistress Sindall
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Posted - 2009.02.05 16:54:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Tarminic Kill them with fire. I don't care that I'll lose SP. They are the biggest waste of time and a completely arbitrary timesink that discourages new players. New players should be discouraged by the fact that New Eden is a cold, harsh world, not because you have to spend a month essentially training nothing so you can be competitive.
QFT, supporting.
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Arren Lark
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Posted - 2009.02.05 17:21:00 -
[31]
Reimburse if practical, but remove them either way. There are no words for how dumb the current system is. |
Shirley Serious
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.05 17:29:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Shirley Serious on 05/02/2009 17:35:27 Support for this issue being investigated.
Perhaps A Compromise?:
So as not to shaft players who have recently started, change new character starting skills, to lvl4 basics, lvl1 advanced learnings, AT THE COST OF reducing the amount of lvl4 and lvl5 skills that new chars start with. Possibly by a greater amount than you give the learnings.
E.g. 800k sp is what new chars start with. 6 basic learnings @ lvl4 = 6x 45,255 sp = 271530sp 5 adv learnings @ lvl1 = 5x 750 = 3750sp Total in learnings = 275280sp.
Even if starter total was reduced to 700k or 600k, I think there would be plenty left for enough skills to have fun with.
This should allow new chars to advance their skills reasonably quickly, so as to be able to DO MORE FUN STUFF.
e.g. as is, what happens with new players. "Help, my capacitor empties too quickly in missions" "train energy systems operation to help that"
Now, with low attributes, energy systems operation 1 takes nearly 20 minutes say, to learn. With higher attributes, it only takes 10, or less.
So, a new player can then get back into their mission and PLAY SOONER, rather than wait.
Now, you can make the choice to invest more into the learning skills, but it's not such a stark choice.
Edit: Eve has plenty of long waits in the higher gameplay, is it too much to ask that you don't expose new players to the waiting game before you show them the fun stuff?
Yes. Yes, I am. |
Efrim Black
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.05 17:30:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Vladmier
Originally by: Drake Draconis Edited by: Drake Draconis on 05/02/2009 15:29:30
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
Originally by: Drake Draconis Reasoning is too weak for this proposal.
Not supported.
Exactly how is 'Learning skills are not fun at all, add nothing to the game and actively discourage new players from staying' weak?
Trying using that gray matter in your skull.
So you eliminate learning skills..... nothing changes. starting skill points get boosted for the char that gets started. Whoopee right?
leaving them alone harms no one either.
too weak of a proposal. There are more important matters to resolve.
Not supported.
This is the same arguing if there's a point to have rookie ships or not. Useless to everyone... cant reprocess... cant sell back.... only get's used when you start the game... rather have just a pod or something or better yet a shuttle.
Its an argument that goes nowhere real quick because its a waste of everyones bloody time.
Your just sore because you want more skill points for free or little time. That's the truth of the matter here.
If you don't like them... then don't train them... DUH!
You sir have THE WORST logic.
The point being made, is that new people are forced to train for skills which do NOTHING apart from making them able to train other skills at the same rate as people already in game.
Thats not logic. By your "logic" if you train learning skills you're at least as fast as everyone else in the game. Not factoring in all the people who didn't train them right away, or who have implants. Or who have different character builds.
This whole "debate" is nonsense. No one is Forced to train them.
There are more important things to worry about. No support.
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ChuckNorris InSpace
Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.05 17:39:00 -
[34]
Edited by: ChuckNorris InSpace on 05/02/2009 17:39:01
Originally by: Drake Draconis Edited by: Drake Draconis on 05/02/2009 15:40:15
Your argument is completely based on discouragement.
Fine.... take it further...
how long does it take to train up to an Hulk? How about a Marauder? How about a Black Ops Ship? A Carrier?
Oops... did I strike a nerve?
How about you plug your brain in... before you start spouting off.
People leave this game for weeks on end for those skills... learning skills being in... or out... changes nothing.
come up with a valid argument.. and you'll get my support.. otherwise go bug someone else.
..don't be an idiot.
this is completely different to extended training times for advanced ships..
by the time you are training for capital ships and the like, the skills for which take weeks on end, you have (ussually) years of experience, and so can fly numerous other ships while you wait, you also know the fun of eve as you have played it and enjoyed it for a while.
when you are wasting time on your learning skills you are just starting out and are training them because you have to in order to keep up with your friends and others a few months down the line.. but, as you are just starting out you cant really fly or DO anything at all.. so unlike these prospective cap ship pilots, you soend your weeks training doing nothing, and wondering why you joined a game which seems openly hostile for new players.
having only played a few MMOs in my time, EVE is by FAR the most hostile to new players of any.. obviously with the game being so complex, CCP cant change the rediculous user interface.. but things like learning skills.. which realistically, ARE a requirement, mean that new players really dont have a good time as they are stuck unable to do anything..
new players are important, especially to CCP (who would be blind not to do something about this).. if they want new money, and fresh new population for new eden, they need to get their act together and make the game easier to get into.. and the removal of learning skills with boosted attributes is a good start. the game doesnt need to be easier as a whole.. just a little bit quicker to start, at the end of my 2 week trial my character still couldnt fly anything other than frigates with minimal modules as i was waiting for "learning V" if my friends hadn't managed to convince me i'd be just another player to have never fattened CCP's wallet and left for something stupider (but more welcoming to new players) like WOW.
supported.
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ChuckNorris InSpace
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.05 17:44:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Efrim Black
Thats not logic. By your "logic" if you train learning skills you're at least as fast as everyone else in the game. Not factoring in all the people who didn't train them right away, or who have implants. Or who have different character builds.
This whole "debate" is nonsense. No one is Forced to train them.
There are more important things to worry about. No support.
...more important things to worry about? you're saying that hitting "delete" on the learning section for CCP, and popping everyone's attributes up by the appropriate amount would take a HUUUUGE amount of CCPs valuable time?
..and yeah, you're not "forced" to train learning.. in the same way you're not "forced" technically to train for better ships and modules.. you CAN fly a rookie ship for years.. but you need better stuff to be good enough to have fun.. you need the learning skills to competitive and able to have fun..
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.02.05 17:56:00 -
[36]
The true problem seems to be the manic group-think that everyone seems to thrust on new players. It's like a chant: "You must train learning first. You must train learning first. You must train learning first"
Perhaps we should slow down and actually give the newbies a real answer and educate them about the learning skills.
"If you choose to invest training time in the Learning skills, you will reap the benefits of improved training speed in the long-run. If you choose to invest time in the "practical skills" first, you will build more wealth initially and have more fun up front. You do have the option to go back and forth: train a litle learning, train something fun
It's a decision, it has consequences, welcome to the galaxy." ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic |
Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.05 18:05:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri The true problem seems to be the manic group-think that everyone seems to thrust on new players. It's like a chant: "You must train learning first. You must train learning first. You must train learning first"
Perhaps we should slow down and actually give the newbies a real answer and educate them about the learning skills.
"If you choose to invest training time in the Learning skills, you will reap the benefits of improved training speed in the long-run. If you choose to invest time in the "practical skills" first, you will build more wealth initially and have more fun up front. You do have the option to go back and forth: train a litle learning, train something fun
It's a decision, it has consequences, welcome to the galaxy."
Or we could remove a pointless timesink of a skill and not have to worry about it. \o/
Everyone pretty much *has* to do the learning skills. You can't change the culture of "You have to do the learning skills or you won't train as fast" without removing them from the game. Everyone likes to get the most possible out of their characters as fast as possible, hence learning skills are pretty much a requirement, not a 'decision with consequences'.
How is it going to hurt you to remove these skills, exactly?
Because you suffered through training them you think everyone should?
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FireFoxx80
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2009.02.05 18:09:00 -
[38]
I support this.
Just boost everyone's base stats by 10 points each (the same as 5/5 training skills), and distribute the 'lost' skillpoints amongst the lowest trained skills remaining*
*There might be some people who have trained their skills to lvl5 and don't have any skills to increase. In that case, either give them ISK, or give them some random-but-helpful skill instead.
What I do the rest of the time |
Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.02.05 18:18:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
Everyone pretty much *has* to do the learning skills. You can't change the culture of "You have to do the learning skills or you won't train as fast" without removing them from the game. Everyone likes to get the most possible out of their characters as fast as possible, hence learning skills are pretty much a requirement, not a 'decision with consequences'.
How is it going to hurt you to remove these skills, exactly?
Because you suffered through training them you think everyone should?
It's not that it would hurt me. However this turns out I'll be hurt or benefit exactly as much as everyone else.
I just disagree with the premise behind this proposal. I don't think it's a good idea.
I apparenently see a lot more choice in the when-and-how people train skills than you do.
I see the choice of if/when/how fast people choose to train these skills as important decisions a person makes in the development of their characters.
As I've said, I still have a couple of the level 2 learning skills that I still need to get around to finishing off some day. I chose to go back and forth between learning and other skills many times over the years. As a result, I'm sure I have less total skill points than I would have had if I'd trained all learning first. I enjoyed or put more priority different skills at different times. I'm pretty happy with the training decisions; they worked for me. Others choose different routes.
To use a different real-world analogy: Some people go to college right after high school. Some people go back to school late in life after making some money in the business world. Some people pursue a on and off education of technical courses and certifications. Some people go right to work and never look for more education.
I think the learning skills should be seen for what they are - a useful set of skills and one more option for character development.
~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic |
Renata Enila
Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.02.05 18:26:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Renata Enila on 05/02/2009 18:26:35 You guys make it seem like someone is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to train learning skills as soon as you log on the first time... And if your advice to new players are that they should train learning skills first, then you're also the ones holding the gun. *rolls eyes*
If a new player asks me for advice on skill progression, I advice them to do what I did (and what Pilot Santiago Fahahrii said before me): Yes, learning skills are nice to have, however train skills so you can fly a fun ship with decent modules first, then train some learning skills as you feel like it. They are nice to have, but they are also not mandatory.
And about the proposal? In some ways it feels nice to not have a cookie cutter character, that it's nice to have some individuality even in how fast you train your skills. In the end it doesn't really matter unless you're a munchkin.
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Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.05 18:31:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Renata Enila Edited by: Renata Enila on 05/02/2009 18:26:35 You guys make it seem like someone is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to train learning skills as soon as you log on the first time... And if your advice to new players are that they should train learning skills first, then you're also the ones holding the gun. *rolls eyes*
If a new player asks me for advice on skill progression, I advice them to do what I did (and what Pilot Santiago Fahahrii said before me): Yes, learning skills are nice to have, however train skills so you can fly a fun ship with decent modules first, then train some learning skills as you feel like it. They are nice to have, but they are also not mandatory.
And about the proposal? In some ways it feels nice to not have a cookie cutter character, that it's nice to have some individuality even in how fast you train your skills. In the end it doesn't really matter unless you're a munchkin.
They're not mandatory, but a lot of people feel like they are because they don't want to feel 'left behind'.
There would still be plenty of character individuality in how you distribute your starting SP's and what implants you decide to plug in. Personally, I've been flying with +3's almost my entire career because they are a pirate set. I could train faster by plugging in +5's, but the pirate set gives other nice bonus's that I prefer.
THAT is a decision with consequences. Learning skills are not. They're simply a 'must-train' skill that sucks the fun out of new players first couple of months.
I'll say it again. You can't change the culture of "You need the learning skills" advice-giving without removing them from the game.
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Efrim Black
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.05 18:56:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
Originally by: Renata Enila Edited by: Renata Enila on 05/02/2009 18:26:35 You guys make it seem like someone is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to train learning skills as soon as you log on the first time... And if your advice to new players are that they should train learning skills first, then you're also the ones holding the gun. *rolls eyes*
If a new player asks me for advice on skill progression, I advice them to do what I did (and what Pilot Santiago Fahahrii said before me):
Yes, learning skills are nice to have, however train skills so you can fly a fun ship with decent modules first, then train some learning skills as you feel like it. They are nice to have, but they are also not mandatory .
And about the proposal? In some ways it feels nice to not have a cookie cutter character, that it's nice to have some individuality even in how fast you train your skills. In the end it doesn't really matter unless you're a munchkin.
They're not mandatory, but a lot of people feel like they are because they don't want to feel 'left behind'.
There would still be plenty of character individuality in how you distribute your starting SP's and what implants you decide to plug in. Personally, I've been flying with +3's almost my entire career because they are a pirate set. I could train faster by plugging in +5's, but the pirate set gives other nice bonus's that I prefer.
THAT is a decision with consequences. Learning skills are not. They're simply a 'must-train' skill that sucks the fun out of new players first couple of months.
I'll say it again. You can't change the culture of "You need the learning skills" advice-giving without removing them from the game.
I bolded the parts you need to re-read. You are using Rhetoric to dance around the central issue. Learning skills provide a cheap means of increasing attributes over the top of base stats and implants which costs sometimes hundreds of millions.
It's a Choice. It's a Choice. It's a Choice.
How many times must you read that before you understand it? It's not a "must have" You can get along just fine without ever training them. You're trying to paint it as something you must do because other people pressure new players into it. It's not, and never has been.
You can't make your opinions facts by yelling them over and over again. It it's YOUR OPINION that these skills must be trained in the beginning. Not a fact.
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Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.05 19:05:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Efrim Black
I bolded the parts you need to re-read. You are using Rhetoric to dance around the central issue. Learning skills provide a cheap means of increasing attributes over the top of base stats and implants which costs sometimes hundreds of millions.
It's a Choice. It's a Choice. It's a Choice.
How many times must you read that before you understand it? It's not a "must have" You can get along just fine without ever training them. You're trying to paint it as something you must do because other people pressure new players into it. It's not, and never has been.
You can't make your opinions facts by yelling them over and over again. It it's YOUR OPINION that these skills must be trained in the beginning. Not a fact.
And it's the opinion of a lot of other people, too. That is my entire POINT. Are you not even listening or do you want to try some more poor logic on me?
New players feel like they *have* to train these skills to stay competitive. The Learning skill tree is boring to train, but most people feel like they need to train these skills early on or they will fall behind. There is no point to these skills except 'learning to learn'.
It's a timesink and unnecessary and drives new players away.
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Paskis Robinson
Hyperdyne Systems
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Posted - 2009.02.05 19:40:00 -
[44]
Hardly the first time this has come up. But definitely supported. Learning skills = noob tax. They are effectively mandatory in order to compete. I'd much rather see them combined with other skills. EG take something like Navigation (1). Make it a (2) and give it a +1 Perception per level as well. Something that people do train, but that actually provides some benefit. |
Efrim Black
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.05 20:41:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
Originally by: Efrim Black
I bolded the parts you need to re-read. You are using Rhetoric to dance around the central issue. Learning skills provide a cheap means of increasing attributes over the top of base stats and implants which costs sometimes hundreds of millions.
It's a Choice. It's a Choice. It's a Choice.
How many times must you read that before you understand it? It's not a "must have" You can get along just fine without ever training them. You're trying to paint it as something you must do because other people pressure new players into it. It's not, and never has been.
You can't make your opinions facts by yelling them over and over again. It it's YOUR OPINION that these skills must be trained in the beginning. Not a fact.
And it's the opinion of a lot of other people, too. Snipped repetition of previous argument. It's a timesink and unnecessary and drives new players away.
17 Supports on this thread. 250,000 subscribers. I see nothing unnecessary about a cheap alternative to implants, that is still optional.
I'll keep saying it until you get it. It is a choice, just because certain people are being made to "feel" as though they have to learn these skills. They do not have to, are not forced to, and have a choice. If it drives them away, you can blame that on the player base aggressively telling them to train learning skills, not the skills themselves.
Implants - Expensive as sin but instantly implement attribute boost. Learning Skill - Cheap as sin, but take increasing amounts of time to boost attributes.
I think thats a reasonable duo we have going. I have not yet seen a significant reason to have the skill books removed. If they were forced on new players in any tangible way, or if not training them was a significant detriment to anyone I would support it. As you do not, I do not support.
Keep yelling, I'll keep rebutting. Repeating opinions do not make them facts. The Fact is it's optional, and you can't dance around that forever.
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Ignition SemperFi
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2009.02.05 20:51:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Ignition SemperFi on 05/02/2009 20:51:21 I support it, only if those who trained the advanced learning skills to 4 and 5 were justly compensated, while adv 3 and below were given the setback.
Also warn people of when this implementation will happen so any new pilots who join wont waste time on those skills ---- People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun.
Quote:
They already did introduce a counter to missiles, it's called Quantum Rise
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Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.05 21:19:00 -
[47]
Oh look, more terrible logic. Let me address this point by point.
Originally by: Efrim Black
17 Supports on this thread. 250,000 subscribers. I see nothing unnecessary about a cheap alternative to implants, that is still optional.
First off, quoting subscriber numbers means nothing, especially when a huge portion of the subscribers don't visit this forum. And a huge portion of those that do are currently enthralled by the BOB/Goons drama.
Exspense has nothing to do with this arguement either. And I laugh at you thinking implants are pricey. Implants used to cost a lot, back in the day. These days, pretty much anyone who tries even a little bit can run around in a set of +4's.
Originally by: Efrim Black I'll keep saying it until you get it. It is a choice, just because certain people are being made to "feel" as though they have to learn these skills. They do not have to, are not forced to, and have a choice. If it drives them away, you can blame that on the player base aggressively telling them to train learning skills, not the skills themselves.
Yes, I know it's a 'choice'. I have never disputed the fact that it is a 'choice'. What I am disputing is the necessity of such a choice. The learning skills do NOTHING for a character except make them train (or 'level up', in other MMO vernacular) faster. Everyone wants to level up faster. Newbies feel it is necessary to train these skills, but they are not fun in any way.
Originally by: Efrim Black Implants - Expensive as sin but instantly implement attribute boost.
Laughable. You can have a set of +4's very cheaply these days. Price still has nothing to do with this, anyways.
Originally by: Efrim Black Learning Skill - Cheap as sin, but take increasing amounts of time to boost attributes.
See above. Price, nothing to do with this arguement, etc.
Originally by: Efrim Black I think thats a reasonable duo we have going. I have not yet seen a significant reason to have the skill books removed. If they were forced on new players in any tangible way, or if not training them was a significant detriment to anyone I would support it. As you do not, I do not support.
Wait, by your logic, training 50% slower than everyone else if you don't train these skills isn't a detriment?? Then I have no idea what is, by your definition of the word.
Originally by: Efrim Black Keep yelling, I'll keep rebutting. Repeating opinions do not make them facts. The Fact is it's optional, and you can't dance around that forever.
You keep repeating this like it's some sort of mantra against having to make a rational arguement.
There's absolutely no reason to have these skills in game. They don't provide a real 'choice' with actual consequences and benefits. Just "Train these skills or you will train slower than everyone else, therefor your character is worse." |
van Uber
SAE Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.05 21:34:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Efrim Black I have not yet seen a significant reason to have the skill books removed.
I have yet to see a compelling reason for the skill books to stay. Discourage new players to log in is not one. |
Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
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Posted - 2009.02.05 21:38:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow Oh look, more terrible logic. Let me address this point by point.
That was a nice try.
You're talking about noobs. Well noobs don't have the 500 million isk to "trot" around with buying up +4s. So throw that crap out the window. It's not laughable at all.
Again - Not. Everyone. Has to train these skills, and Not everyone does. Making blanket statements like "if you don't train these you skill up 50% slower than everyone else" is Laughable as you put it. Since you have no fraking clue what EVERYONE trains. You're using rhetoric again to try to skirt the fact that it's an viable option, but still only an option.
The reason for having them - as I stated and you ignored, is to have another option outside of implants that costs less Isk wise, but more Time wise.
Thats breaking it down for you Barney style, if you can't figure out the Dichotomy between Learning skills and Implants, you probably shouldn't be on here arguing about Rational Arguments at all.
Also, it's not a Mantra. It's a promise. I can keep posting here every time I see it on the main page if you like. I will continue to stress that it's a choice, since you're only argument against it seems to be that it's being forced on everyone, or that it's not necessary. Well neither of Implants. So the only way I support the upset of the current system is to throw out both Implants, and Learning skills, since neither is more absurd than the other.
Yeah, theres a Swiftian turn for you.
It's a Choice. Not a bad one either, but as long as it's not forced on anyone, I think it deserves to stay. |
Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
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Posted - 2009.02.05 21:40:00 -
[50]
Originally by: van Uber
Originally by: Efrim Black I have not yet seen a significant reason to have the skill books removed.
I have yet to see a compelling reason for the skill books to stay. Discourage new players to log in is not one.
Then you didn't read/understand my post. They form a Dichotomy with implants that shouldn't be tampered with unless scrapping all of it. Implants, Learning Skills, anything that boosts skills.
More Options > Less options. |
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.05 21:43:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Tarminic Kill them with fire. I don't care that I'll lose SP. They are the biggest waste of time and a completely arbitrary timesink that discourages new players. New players should be discouraged by the fact that New Eden is a cold, harsh world, not because you have to spend a month essentially training nothing so you can be competitive.
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Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.05 21:45:00 -
[52]
You're not even worth argueing with any more, Efrim. I'll just keep collecting support itt. Thanks! |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.05 21:45:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri The true problem seems to be the manic group-think that everyone seems to thrust on new players. It's like a chant: "You must train learning first. You must train learning first. You must train learning first"
Perhaps we should slow down and actually give the newbies a real answer and educate them about the learning skills.
In the end, they will still have to train the learning skills. They are a useless time sink.
So they either get their time sink done first, or get it done later.
It sucks, its lame, its bad game design, it does not encourage people to play the game. |
Zeekar
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Posted - 2009.02.05 21:54:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Tarminic Kill them with fire. I don't care that I'll lose SP. They are the biggest waste of time and a completely arbitrary timesink that discourages new players. New players should be discouraged by the fact that New Eden is a cold, harsh world, not because you have to spend a month essentially training nothing so you can be competitive.
Quoting for truth
And supporting this thread since it was said it needs pylons. |
Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
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Posted - 2009.02.05 21:55:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow You're not even worth argueing with any more, Efrim. I'll just keep collecting support itt. Thanks!
Good luck with that. If you can not work through my arguments, it proves you're relying on hollow rhetoric. It also shows how well you'd be able to take on counter-points from CCP, who would probablyagree with me. The skills are not useless, they provide an alternative way to increase attributes. You'd rather scrap that and make the only way implants, meaning, the only way to increase attributes is to grind for isk. So unless you support them both being scrapped,I disagree with you're flawed argument.
They are useful, They are a cheap option, and they aren't forced on anyone.
More Options are better than Fewer Options. |
Louella Dougans
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
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Posted - 2009.02.05 21:58:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Shirley Serious e.g. as is, what happens with new players. "Help, my capacitor empties too quickly in missions" "train energy systems operation to help that"
Now, with low attributes, energy systems operation 1 takes nearly 20 minutes say, to learn. With higher attributes, it only takes 10, or less.
So, a new player can then get back into their mission and PLAY SOONER, rather than wait.
Isn't this the problem here? You are playing the game, and encounter a problem, the solution to the problem involves waiting for a skill. No big deal, but without learning skills, the solution takes quite a bit longer to arrive. This is most important in the first few hours of gameplay, isn't it? having people twiddle their thumbs while waiting is not attractive.
Shirley's suggestion sounds OK, I think. basics to lvl4, adv to lvl1, for new characters, reduce some other skills to compensate. Still have the option to invest in long term, but in the short term, skills will be a bit quicker, which means more people are likely to get hooked in the trial 2 weeks, no? |
Dark Flare
Caldari 0utbreak
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Posted - 2009.02.05 22:00:00 -
[57]
Supporting this.
Also Efrim, your argument makes no sense at all. |
Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
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Posted - 2009.02.05 22:08:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Dark Flare Edited by: Dark Flare on 05/02/2009 22:02:24 Supporting this.
Also Efrim, your argument makes no sense at all.
EDIT: Re-read your posts Efrim "I didn't train them so I can train skills slower to be different". Yeah. Smart move.
First of all, I never said that, I don't know who you're quoting. I Did train the learning skills, with every character I've started. I enjoyed that it chopped off training time for other skills.
Second of all. If you don't have the mental capacity to understand my argument, thats not my fault.
If you do, please point out an inconsistency, and you may change my mind.
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Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.05 22:11:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: Dark Flare Edited by: Dark Flare on 05/02/2009 22:02:24 Supporting this.
Also Efrim, your argument makes no sense at all.
EDIT: Re-read your posts Efrim "I didn't train them so I can train skills slower to be different". Yeah. Smart move.
First of all, I never said that, I don't know who you're quoting. I Did train the learning skills, with every character I've started. I enjoyed that it chopped off training time for other skills.
Second of all. If you don't have the mental capacity to understand my argument, thats not my fault.
If you do, please point out an inconsistency, and you may change my mind.
No he won't. And no one else will be able to, either. Because you're not looking at it from the right perspective. If you don't have the mental capacity to understand that, that's not my fault. (see what I did there?)
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Nnamuachs
Caldari Kiith Paktu Veneratio Venator Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.05 22:16:00 -
[60]
Remove learning skills... no base attribute bonus beyond implants... "no" +10 in place of learning skills... reallocate learning skill sp to other skills, no more discussion on learning skills.
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Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
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Posted - 2009.02.05 22:24:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
No he won't. And no one else will be able to, either. Because you're not looking at it from the right perspective. If you don't have the mental capacity to understand that, that's not my fault. (see what I did there?)
Yeah, I see what you did there. It's not a matter of perspective. It's pretty cut and dry. You offer no new alternatives while removing an option thats been in the game for a long time.
So you're removing options without providing any viable alternatives, and I'm pretty sure that perspective has nothing to do with that.
See what I did there? |
Linavin
Mercurialis Inc. Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.02.05 22:26:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Tarminic Kill them with fire. I don't care that I'll lose SP. They are the biggest waste of time and a completely arbitrary timesink that discourages new players. New players should be discouraged by the fact that New Eden is a cold, harsh world, not because you have to spend a month essentially training nothing so you can be competitive.
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Xennith
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.02.05 22:30:00 -
[63]
learning skills just discourage people, give everyone lvl 4 basics and lvl 2-3 advanced learning skills for free. when the people who stand to lose out are supporting an idea, its the only real choice. |
Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.05 22:30:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
No he won't. And no one else will be able to, either. Because you're not looking at it from the right perspective. If you don't have the mental capacity to understand that, that's not my fault. (see what I did there?)
Yeah, I see what you did there. It's not a matter of perspective. It's pretty cut and dry. You offer no new alternatives while removing an option thats been in the game for a long time.
So you're removing options without providing any viable alternatives, and I'm pretty sure that perspective has nothing to do with that.
See what I did there?
Because what this game needs more of is terrible options that arn't really options. :colbert: |
Dark Flare
Caldari 0utbreak
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Posted - 2009.02.05 22:38:00 -
[65]
I was quoting you. The direct quote is "In some ways it feels nice to not have a cookie cutter character, that it's nice to have some individuality even in how fast you train your skills."
I just translated it. |
Lady Spank
Amarr Suddenly Whingers
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Posted - 2009.02.05 22:45:00 -
[66]
I love paying for a game then being put on hold for two months to get on with it in a productive manner.
Learning skills are just a gimp to new players. I want to be able to play to the best of my ability right from the get go, and no I don't mean I wish I started with level V's across the board. This is just a time sink everyone has to go through. Christ, anyone that chooses NOT to go through this rigmarole is just going to feel cheated later on in the game.
TLDR: Get rid of learning Skills. |
Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.05 22:47:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Lady Spank I love paying for a game then being put on hold for two months to get on with it in a productive manner.
Learning skills are just a gimp to new players. I want to be able to play to the best of my ability right from the get go, and no I don't mean I wish I started with level V's across the board. This is just a time sink everyone has to go through. Christ, anyone that chooses NOT to go through this rigmarole is just going to feel cheated later on in the game.
TLDR: Get rid of learning Skills.
Please put a checkmark in the "give support" box when you post. More support = more attention. :) |
Vanillilililliilliliilin
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2009.02.05 22:55:00 -
[68]
Definitely remove them, give everyone +10 by default, and refund all existing SP that people have trained. |
Mael Marcellus
The Dancing Cow
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Posted - 2009.02.05 22:57:00 -
[69]
Refund, remove, +10 across the board it. |
Amantus
0utbreak
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Posted - 2009.02.05 23:08:00 -
[70]
Get rid of them, +9 or +10. Gogo. |
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jeffb
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2009.02.05 23:15:00 -
[71]
Edited by: jeffb on 05/02/2009 23:14:52 scrap all learning skills, boost all character attributes, allow player to redistribute skill points invested through some fancy web interface.
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Jolin Ires
Static Shock Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.05 23:17:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Jolin Ires on 05/02/2009 23:17:48
Originally by: jeffb Edited by: jeffb on 05/02/2009 23:14:52 scrap all learning skills, boost all character attributes, allow player to redistribute skill points invested through some fancy web interface.
Since they are implementing the skill queue come the patch in march, they can integrate redistributing sp on a modified queue system.
Possibly?
Edited to show support.
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Ancorehraq sis
Advanced Logistics
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Posted - 2009.02.05 23:23:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Tarminic Kill it. The learning skill tree is absolutely pointless as anything other than a near-mandatory skill link imposed during the first month or two of gameplay.
It's like not being allowed into a car dealership unless Blocky the Angry Bouncer punches you in the face first.
Apologies to fans of being punched in the face.
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Star Dancer
Advanced Investigations
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Posted - 2009.02.05 23:24:00 -
[74]
I'm definitely not an alt of the previous poster.
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Scoutingfor Gatecamps
|
Posted - 2009.02.05 23:27:00 -
[75]
Those are my shoes. Give them back. They don't even fit.. you are a dog.
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Marcellus Corteaz
Alt Corp
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Posted - 2009.02.05 23:28:00 -
[76]
Yes.
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Awox
Advanced Logistics
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Posted - 2009.02.05 23:29:00 -
[77]
Awox approves this product and/or service.
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William Hart
Advanced Logistics
|
Posted - 2009.02.05 23:32:00 -
[78]
So do I!
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Ting Zhan
|
Posted - 2009.02.05 23:33:00 -
[79]
ching chong wing wong eve gold for sale 300=$1
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PerfectFool
PerfectFool's Lottery
|
Posted - 2009.02.05 23:36:00 -
[80]
Supportan. |
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NanoDerek
|
Posted - 2009.02.05 23:36:00 -
[81]
Edited by: NanoDerek on 05/02/2009 23:36:20 MOAR SUPPORT.
NANONANONANO. |
Benedic
The Aftermath
|
Posted - 2009.02.05 23:38:00 -
[82]
No thanks. |
Big Al
The Aftermath
|
Posted - 2009.02.05 23:40:00 -
[83]
Dissenting opinion checking in. |
Milena Rage
The Aftermath
|
Posted - 2009.02.05 23:41:00 -
[84]
Offsetting PoD. NONONONO. |
Sofia Roseburn
Verdant Inquiries
|
Posted - 2009.02.05 23:43:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Awox Awox approves this product and/or service.
If this gentleman approves, so do I. |
Mistress Sindall
|
Posted - 2009.02.05 23:45:00 -
[86]
Adding support for this idea! |
van Uber
SAE Academy
|
Posted - 2009.02.05 23:47:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: van Uber
Originally by: Efrim Black I have not yet seen a significant reason to have the skill books removed.
I have yet to see a compelling reason for the skill books to stay. Discourage new players to log in is not one.
Then you didn't read/understand my post. They form a Dichotomy with implants that shouldn't be tampered with unless scrapping all of it. Implants, Learning Skills, anything that boosts skills.
More Options > Less options.
But I did. I just dont *agree* with you.
Anything that acts as a deterrent for new players to continue playing is bad, even if it means More Options. |
ChuckNorris InSpace
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.05 23:47:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Nnamuachs Remove learning skills... no base attribute bonus beyond implants... "no" +10 in place of learning skills... reallocate learning skill sp to other skills, no more discussion on learning skills.
this tbh..
this game has HUUUUUGE number of customisable options and HUUUGE scope
learning isnt an option everyone has to do it at the expenense of time on other skills.
learning is a VERY good example of an extra dynamic added to the game which SIMPLY DOESNT NEED to be there, it serves no purpose as everyone trains learning ot the same level anyway, the only part which is optional is implants as some people choose not to expend the money and take the podding risk.
..no need for learning to stay in the game, i would have alot of respect for CCP if they were to trim some fat off the game. can you really say, without the complete non-choice that is learning, the game would be worse off? and wouldn't have enough choices and scope? |
Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
|
Posted - 2009.02.05 23:59:00 -
[89]
Originally by: van Uber
Anything that acts as a deterrent for new players to continue playing is bad, even if it means More Options.
So the steep learning curve, current lack of an avatar, excel in space interface, and lack of any grind-for-skill system are all bad things? They drive away plenty of new players.
If we weed out everything that might deter new players, we'd just get another generic MMO. I'm sorry, but part of what makes this game unique is the number of options. You people supporting do not seem to really think of the implications of removing the current learning skills and just giving everyone +10 points across the board...
This would leave only One way to increase attributes. Implants. Basically, if you grind for money, you train skills faster, otherwise, you're screwed. So my proposal is pretty simple. If you're going to be so brash as to tear this down. Tear the entire system down, remove implants as well.
Oh wait, then you lose a major ISK sink and the economy starts falling apart. Stupid logic. |
Louella Dougans
Amarr Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 00:08:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Efrim Black So my proposal is pretty simple.
what about the compromise Shirley posted earlier? lvl4 basics, lvl1 advanced, trim some sp from other starting skills.
that way, those that want to invest in the long term can still do so, but people in the trial account can experience more of the fun stuff before committing to the waiting game? |
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Greme
Amarr Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 00:09:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Greme on 06/02/2009 00:09:05 The point is (and I'll keep this post short so that you understand it), that there may be a choice, but it is a Morton's Fock. Neither option is an equality of good vs bad, both options result in disappointment for a new player. |
Efrim Black
Apellon
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 00:12:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Louella Dougans
Originally by: Efrim Black So my proposal is pretty simple.
what about the compromise Shirley posted earlier? lvl4 basics, lvl1 advanced, trim some sp from other starting skills.
that way, those that want to invest in the long term can still do so, but people in the trial account can experience more of the fun stuff before committing to the waiting game?
I saw it, and I might think about something along those lines. The problem is thats not what this thread is proposing. The proposal in question is the total elimination of learning skills, leaving no alternative. And to that I firmly point my thumbs down. If shirley starts a thread I will be one of the first to support it. :) |
van Uber
SAE Academy
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 00:21:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Efrim Black
So the steep learning curve, current lack of an avatar, excel in space interface, and lack of any grind-for-skill system are all bad things? They drive away plenty of new players.
Probably. And that is why most of the things you mention will be mended this year. So again, why keep a feature that scare away new players?
EVE will still be unique, even if learning skills were left out. |
Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 00:33:00 -
[94]
Originally by: van Uber most of the things you mention will be mended this year.
Not true. Only the avatars. The interface will probably always be extreme, there will never be a way to grind exp, and as far as I know the Learning Curve is still pretty ridiculous.
So I don't know what you're talking about. This is more than just some random option, as I've said, it's part of a dichotemy that shouldn't be tampered with without a real solution. I've heard one or two promising compromises, the OP's suggestion however is not one, and thats the cause for my dissent.
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Auri Hella
Downwind Trading Guild
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 00:41:00 -
[95]
Kill learning. Refund skillpoints. Give me Gallente battleship 5. I like this idea and so should you. |
Darkwingd
Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 00:41:00 -
[96]
:pylon:
Nuke em, could care less about my SP. I lost a couple of RL friends when they realized that they would be behind if they didn't train learning skills. |
Baji Core
Hell's Satans
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 00:44:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Baji Core on 06/02/2009 00:44:33 Remove. The skills are completely pointless. They essentially force you to decide if you're going to be playing the game for more than X amount of time. |
Machiu Troyan
Uninvited Guests Rote Kapelle
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 00:52:00 -
[98]
Signed. ------------------
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Agent Unknown
Fist of Eargon
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 01:06:00 -
[99]
I'm Agent Unknown, and I approve this message. ----------------------------------- "What can go wrong, will go wrong." |
Dapanman1
Beets and Gravy Syndicate The InterBus Initiative
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 01:10:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Tarminic Kill them with fire.
________
Sig removed for inappropriate content.~~~Applebabe |
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Nnamuachs
Caldari Kiith Paktu Veneratio Venator Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 01:19:00 -
[101]
Originally by: ChuckNorris InSpace
Originally by: Nnamuachs Remove learning skills... no base attribute bonus beyond implants... "no" +10 in place of learning skills... reallocate learning skill sp to other skills, no more discussion on learning skills.
this tbh..
this game has HUUUUUGE number of customisable options and HUUUGE scope
learning isnt an option everyone has to do it at the expenense of time on other skills.
learning is a VERY good example of an extra dynamic added to the game which SIMPLY DOESNT NEED to be there, it serves no purpose as everyone trains learning ot the same level anyway, the only part which is optional is implants as some people choose not to expend the money and take the podding risk.
..no need for learning to stay in the game, i would have alot of respect for CCP if they were to trim some fat off the game. can you really say, without the complete non-choice that is learning, the game would be worse off? and wouldn't have enough choices and scope?
Glad someone here can see reason.
I reiterate, you want learning skills removed... remove them.. they dont need a supplement, get rid of the skills, get rid of the attribute points that go along with them.. dont replace learning skills with free attributes.. everyone gets to train as slow as everyone else.
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Sensor Boosting
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Posted - 2009.02.06 01:26:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Nnamuachs
Originally by: ChuckNorris InSpace
Originally by: Nnamuachs Remove learning skills... no base attribute bonus beyond implants... "no" +10 in place of learning skills... reallocate learning skill sp to other skills, no more discussion on learning skills.
this tbh..
this game has HUUUUUGE number of customisable options and HUUUGE scope
learning isnt an option everyone has to do it at the expenense of time on other skills.
learning is a VERY good example of an extra dynamic added to the game which SIMPLY DOESNT NEED to be there, it serves no purpose as everyone trains learning ot the same level anyway, the only part which is optional is implants as some people choose not to expend the money and take the podding risk.
..no need for learning to stay in the game, i would have alot of respect for CCP if they were to trim some fat off the game. can you really say, without the complete non-choice that is learning, the game would be worse off? and wouldn't have enough choices and scope?
Glad someone here can see reason.
I reiterate, you want learning skills removed... remove them.. they dont need a supplement, get rid of the skills, get rid of the attribute points that go along with them.. dont replace learning skills with free attributes.. everyone gets to train as slow as everyone else.
no i dont want MY time being wasted by training them. i trained them a long time ago, it didnt bother me, i just trained up for a certain ship then trained learning skills.
as i was flying my new ship my learning skills were training. its a question of wether the noobs can be bothered training them or not The learning skills help to train faster in the long run, therefore training the skills you want to train faster.
eve isnt supposed to be easy! alot of people started off this way, why should it be any different?
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Mistress Sindall
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 01:29:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Sensor Boosting
no i dont want MY time being wasted by training them. i trained them a long time ago, it didnt bother me, i just trained up for a certain ship then trained learning skills.
as i was flying my new ship my learning skills were training. its a question of wether the noobs can be bothered training them or not The learning skills help to train faster in the long run, therefore training the skills you want to train faster.
eve isnt supposed to be easy! alot of people started off this way, why should it be any different?
So your reasoning is "Because I suffered, everyone else should, too!" ?
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Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 01:29:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Nnamuachs
Glad someone here can see reason.
Don't worry, there are others. If you read back I've been argueing with these people all day.
They need to just merge this thread with this thread. Then they can all play Wow together.
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Polysynchronicity
MEK Enterprises
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 01:31:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Arren Lark Reimburse if practical, but remove them either way. There are no words for how dumb the current system is.
---------- Now recruiting:
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Ashley Thomas
Kiith Paktu Veneratio Venator Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 01:36:00 -
[106]
Its a trade-off thats up to the player. you could train something other than learning skills at the start like i did, then when the larger skills came up i trained a few up relative to what i needed to shave some time off. its not like its killing you to train up the t1 skills to 4 anyway, and the only thing that really holds people back from the t2 is price.
in short, leave them be, they're fine
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Sensor Boosting
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 01:41:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Mistress Sindall
Originally by: Sensor Boosting
no i dont want MY time being wasted by training them. i trained them a long time ago, it didnt bother me, i just trained up for a certain ship then trained learning skills.
as i was flying my new ship my learning skills were training. its a question of wether the noobs can be bothered training them or not The learning skills help to train faster in the long run, therefore training the skills you want to train faster.
eve isnt supposed to be easy! alot of people started off this way, why should it be any different?
So your reasoning is "Because I suffered, everyone else should, too!" ?
well yeah, noobs have to make their own isk, just like everyone else.....so why shudnt they have to train the learning skills like we all did?
no-one forces them to train them straight away. its their choice wether they train them or not.
also all the while i was training learning skills i was paying, so yeh i wud rather not waste 1-2 months money, for nothing
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Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 01:46:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Sensor Boosting
Originally by: Mistress Sindall
Originally by: Sensor Boosting
no i dont want MY time being wasted by training them. i trained them a long time ago, it didnt bother me, i just trained up for a certain ship then trained learning skills.
as i was flying my new ship my learning skills were training. its a question of wether the noobs can be bothered training them or not The learning skills help to train faster in the long run, therefore training the skills you want to train faster.
eve isnt supposed to be easy! alot of people started off this way, why should it be any different?
So your reasoning is "Because I suffered, everyone else should, too!" ?
well yeah, noobs have to make their own isk, just like everyone else.....so why shudnt they have to train the learning skills like we all did?
no-one forces them to train them straight away. its their choice wether they train them or not.
also all the while i was training learning skills i was paying, so yeh i wud rather not waste 1-2 months money, for nothing
Thats right, I recently started a corp, and brought 7 people into the game. I told them all about Learning skills from the beginning. Only one of them used it in his overall skill plan. One other uses them sporadically, and they are all playing happily.
The myth that All new players will be driven away by...choices.. is utterly insane.
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Mistress Sindall
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 01:48:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: Sensor Boosting
Originally by: Mistress Sindall
Originally by: Sensor Boosting
no i dont want MY time being wasted by training them. i trained them a long time ago, it didnt bother me, i just trained up for a certain ship then trained learning skills.
as i was flying my new ship my learning skills were training. its a question of wether the noobs can be bothered training them or not The learning skills help to train faster in the long run, therefore training the skills you want to train faster.
eve isnt supposed to be easy! alot of people started off this way, why should it be any different?
So your reasoning is "Because I suffered, everyone else should, too!" ?
well yeah, noobs have to make their own isk, just like everyone else.....so why shudnt they have to train the learning skills like we all did?
no-one forces them to train them straight away. its their choice wether they train them or not.
also all the while i was training learning skills i was paying, so yeh i wud rather not waste 1-2 months money, for nothing
Thats right, I recently started a corp, and brought 7 people into the game. I told them all about Learning skills from the beginning. Only one of them used it in his overall skill plan. One other uses them sporadically, and they are all playing happily.
The myth that All new players will be driven away by...choices.. is utterly insane.
No one ever said *all*. Nice attempt at a straw-man, though.
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Greme
Amarr Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 01:51:00 -
[110]
I am in ur threads you told me "don't derail them" I did anyway.
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Sensor Boosting
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 01:54:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Nnamuachs I reiterate, you want learning skills removed... remove them.. they dont need a supplement, get rid of the skills, get rid of the attribute points that go along with them.. dont replace learning skills with free attributes.. everyone gets to train as slow as everyone else.
while you're at it why dont we just remove all other skills so anyone can fly anything, and use anything within 1 day?
Quote: everyone gets to train as slow as everyone else
Or howabout everyone who wants to train the learning skills can train as fast as nearly everyone else?
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Frecator Dementa
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 01:57:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Tarminic Kill them with fire. I don't care that I'll lose SP. They are the biggest waste of time and a completely arbitrary timesink that discourages new players. New players should be discouraged by the fact that New Eden is a cold, harsh world, not because you have to spend a month essentially training nothing so you can be competitive.
----------------------- forum ate my post again |
Nnamuachs
Caldari Kiith Paktu Veneratio Venator Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 01:57:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Sensor Boosting
Originally by: Nnamuachs I reiterate, you want learning skills removed... remove them.. they dont need a supplement, get rid of the skills, get rid of the attribute points that go along with them.. dont replace learning skills with free attributes.. everyone gets to train as slow as everyone else.
while you're at it why dont we just remove all other skills so anyone can fly anything, and use anything within 1 day?
Quote: everyone gets to train as slow as everyone else
Or howabout everyone who wants to train the learning skills can train as fast as nearly everyone else?
Your sarcasm isnt really an extension of my own as its a blatant disregard... a better comparison would be we remove all skills but no one is able to fly the ships anyways. Since everyone wants the skills gone and a modifier added to the baseline "in place of" the skills.
you second one is a bit better.. but it makes it sound like you think i actually think this is a good idea... there are benefits to learning skills.. i'm just trying to be fair and say if you want em removed then dont try and supplement them with something else...
nice one though
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Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 02:01:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Mistress Sindall
Originally by: Efrim Black
The myth that All new players will be driven away by...choices.. is utterly insane.
No one ever said *all*. Nice attempt at a straw-man, though.
I already made my official argument a few hours ago if you'd like to rebut that.
I don't need a straw-argument. You don't have any hard numbers on "players turned away by learning skills" anyway.
Nice try at being clever though.
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Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 02:10:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: Mistress Sindall
Originally by: Efrim Black
The myth that All new players will be driven away by...choices.. is utterly insane.
No one ever said *all*. Nice attempt at a straw-man, though.
I already made my official argument a few hours ago if you'd like to rebut that.
I don't need a straw-argument. You don't have any hard numbers on "players turned away by learning skills" anyway.
Nice try at being clever though.
I see you're still around bumping my thread to keep it on page one for more support! Thank you!
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Sensor Boosting
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 02:16:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
I see you're still around bumping my thread to keep it on page one for more support! Thank you!
or for less support
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Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 02:16:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
I see you're still around bumping my thread to keep it on page one for more support! Thank you!
I'm staying active on here because I'm a voice of dissent.
Your idea is stupid and would severely cripple a feature of EVE plenty of people like and use.
I won't just sit here and ignore that. |
Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 02:26:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
I see you're still around bumping my thread to keep it on page one for more support! Thank you!
I'm staying active on here because I'm a voice of dissent.
Your idea is stupid and would severely cripple a feature of EVE plenty of people like and use.
I won't just sit here and ignore that.
There's been.. hmm.. 3 or 4 people speak against it.. vs. 47 supporting?
Seems like more people like it than don't. vOv
Guess it's not such a stupid idea. |
Skandalous
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 02:27:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Tarminic Kill them with fire. I don't care that I'll lose SP. They are the biggest waste of time and a completely arbitrary timesink that discourages new players. New players should be discouraged by the fact that New Eden is a cold, harsh world, not because you have to spend a month essentially training nothing so you can be competitive.
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Ancorehraq sis
Advanced Logistics
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Posted - 2009.02.06 02:33:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Efrim Black I'm staying active on here because I'm a voice of dissent.
Personally, I think you are spamming this thread with incoherent rambling because you are an idiot troll.
Idea!
How about we stop feeding him? Especially KalRyan. Your thread can survive without such vigorous defense.
|
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Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 02:34:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
I see you're still around bumping my thread to keep it on page one for more support! Thank you!
I'm staying active on here because I'm a voice of dissent.
Your idea is stupid and would severely cripple a feature of EVE plenty of people like and use.
I won't just sit here and ignore that.
There's been.. hmm.. 3 or 4 people speak against it.. vs. 47 supporting?
Seems like more people like it than don't. vOv
Guess it's not such a stupid idea.
Try 9, not including myself.
Want to play the numbers game? Here is a thread that doesn't even propose a game change that has over 1000 supports. And I doubt it will even matter much.
I don't care how many people and alts support your stupid idea. It's a stupid idea, and I will continue to argue against it. |
Dark Flare
Caldari 0utbreak
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 02:36:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
I see you're still around bumping my thread to keep it on page one for more support! Thank you!
I'm staying active on here because I'm a voice of dissent.
Your idea is stupid and would severely cripple a feature of EVE plenty of people like and use.
I won't just sit here and ignore that.
LOL. Yeah, removing a month of not training anything interesting would cripple EVE and make it horrible to play :( |
Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 02:40:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Dark Flare
LOL. Yeah, removing a month of not training anything interesting would cripple EVE and make it horrible to play :(
No - Idiot. You did not read my previous posts.
But instead of linking or explaining them I'll just point out you don't have to train them all at once and they are optional. |
Nnamuachs
Caldari Kiith Paktu Veneratio Venator Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 02:40:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Dark Flare
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
I see you're still around bumping my thread to keep it on page one for more support! Thank you!
I'm staying active on here because I'm a voice of dissent.
Your idea is stupid and would severely cripple a feature of EVE plenty of people like and use.
I won't just sit here and ignore that.
LOL. Yeah, removing a month of not training anything interesting would cripple EVE and make it horrible to play :(
uh people arent required to train it... all it would do is remove options, not requirements. |
FugginNutz
Chinchilla Industries Manifest Destiny.
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 05:43:00 -
[125]
Edited by: FugginNutz on 06/02/2009 05:45:16 Supporting OP's post. Learning skills can be established at character creation, not by wasting time and isk, training them in a game where you are trying to gain skills suited to your career path.
--- |
Nnamuachs
Caldari Kiith Paktu Veneratio Venator Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 06:01:00 -
[126]
Ok, i think we need to get to the root of the problem here first.. because it seems people are demanding 2 things as if you cant have one without the other.
First off, Ok, you don't like/want to train learning skills because its a "timesink" even though its a timesink that makes other skills "less" of a timesink, so it basically nullifies itself out to being beneficial instead of a "sink". Like putting isk into physicals assets that appreciate over time, you're spending the isk and not seeing any returns on it until later in the future... as an investment.
But we'll just say learning skills are a stupid timesink that no one should have to do. Alright, thats settled.
Soooo... where does this attribute boost come from? This is a completely separate issue, especially considering it would be far more "fair and balanced" to "not" give anyone an attribute bonus to "replace" learning skills. So either you're asking for a "replacement" or a "removal" of this skills, a determination which needs to be made. But why give the boost. Lets just make this simple, drop the learning skills... done. Everyone now trains at a relatively similar rate (minus implants) and everyone should be happy yes? Timesink learning skills are gone, new players arent "forced" into training learning skills first anymore, this is a win win situation, but apparently 2 isnt enough and we want a 3rd win of getting attribute points. This is like having your cake and eating it too with another one on the table, and is excessive to say the least.
So whats the justification for the points? Everyone trains faster? how is that relevant or necessary, considering most advocates for this want it to be fair and remove the timesink... so its fair to new players not being behind older players and the learning skill timesink is gone. But whats this.. cries of outrage that all skills now take longer to learn since we're running on base attributes? well thats a sacrifice to be made... you wish to take away what is a choice, not a requirement, so now everyone has to take longer to train all their skills. In this scenario the wasteful timesink of learning skills doesnt sound like so much of a waste anymore does it?
Personally i don't advocate the removal of the learning skills... people just need to be better educated about them. But if they removed them, i would be wholeheartedly against an attribute boost in its place. So if they're gone, then thats it, everyone gets to take longer to train everything, end of story. |
Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 06:35:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Thann Starlinbow on 06/02/2009 06:36:27
Originally by: Nnamuachs Ok, i think we need to get to the root of the problem here first.. because it seems people are demanding 2 things as if you cant have one without the other.
First off, Ok, you don't like/want to train learning skills because its a "timesink" even though its a timesink that makes other skills "less" of a timesink, so it basically nullifies itself out to being beneficial instead of a "sink". Like putting isk into physicals assets that appreciate over time, you're spending the isk and not seeing any returns on it until later in the future... as an investment.
But we'll just say learning skills are a stupid timesink that no one should have to do. Alright, thats settled.
Soooo... where does this attribute boost come from? This is a completely separate issue, especially considering it would be far more "fair and balanced" to "not" give anyone an attribute bonus to "replace" learning skills. So either you're asking for a "replacement" or a "removal" of this skills, a determination which needs to be made. But why give the boost. Lets just make this simple, drop the learning skills... done. Everyone now trains at a relatively similar rate (minus implants) and everyone should be happy yes? Timesink learning skills are gone, new players arent "forced" into training learning skills first anymore, this is a win win situation, but apparently 2 isnt enough and we want a 3rd win of getting attribute points. This is like having your cake and eating it too with another one on the table, and is excessive to say the least.
So whats the justification for the points? Everyone trains faster? how is that relevant or necessary, considering most advocates for this want it to be fair and remove the timesink... so its fair to new players not being behind older players and the learning skill timesink is gone. But whats this.. cries of outrage that all skills now take longer to learn since we're running on base attributes? well thats a sacrifice to be made... you wish to take away what is a choice, not a requirement, so now everyone has to take longer to train all their skills. In this scenario the wasteful timesink of learning skills doesnt sound like so much of a waste anymore does it?
Personally i don't advocate the removal of the learning skills... people just need to be better educated about them. But if they removed them, i would be wholeheartedly against an attribute boost in its place. So if they're gone, then thats it, everyone gets to take longer to train everything, end of story.
Other than a complete arbitrary "It should be done this way because it makes a proposal I don't like look worse!" answer the 'Why?' behind not boosting the base attributes after removing Learning skills.
edit for more relevance: The entire point of removing the Learning skills is it's a huge timesink of a skill that discourages newer players. Removing them and then not boosting attributes leaves us in the same position, more or less. Your arguement has no merit.
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Drykor
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.02.06 10:29:00 -
[128]
Not supporting this unless it's guaranteed we get an SP refund. Me and many others DID take the time to train advanced learning to 5, that takes a long time and is a real investment in the future and I'm not letting that go to waste just because some people get bored easily. I do agree the learning skills were a bad call from the start though. |
Nexus Kinnon
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2009.02.06 11:24:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
I see you're still around bumping my thread to keep it on page one for more support! Thank you!
I'm staying active on here because I'm a voice of dissent.
Your idea is stupid and would severely cripple a feature of EVE plenty of people like and use.
I won't just sit here and ignore that.
I LOVE TRAINING SKILLS THAT DON'T LET ME FLY/DO ANYTHING NEW IT'S JUST SO EXCITING
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ResearchBunny Beatrix
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Posted - 2009.02.06 11:25:00 -
[130]
Edited by: ResearchBunny Beatrix on 06/02/2009 11:25:39 Learning skills had me within a hair of not playing after the first 10 days, they're a horrible, terrible mechanic when you're trying to get new people interested in EVE.
Give everyone 4/4 (basic & adv) learning skills at the start and call it a wash, let the bitter vets cry salty salty tears.
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Random Incarnate
Australia and New Zealand Eve Corp FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2009.02.06 11:28:00 -
[131]
Edited by: Random Incarnate on 06/02/2009 11:28:34 From SHC:
Quote: Kill it. The learning skill tree is absolutely pointless as anything other than a near-mandatory skill link imposed during the first month or two of gameplay.
It's like not being allowed into a car dealership unless Blocky the Angry Bouncer punches you in the face first.
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Omber Zombie
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Posted - 2009.02.06 12:04:00 -
[132]
Normally I would offer to champion this issue but it was discussed in Iceland (off the agenda as part of our discussion regarding the skill queue) and it's already on the drawingboard and being looked at. Raising it as an issue at this time would be pointless as CCP are already discussing this and other options (including the other topic currently active in Assembly Hall) regarding the Learning skills. ----------------------
My Blog |
Crying Neemen
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Posted - 2009.02.06 12:21:00 -
[133]
Thats good news |
Takeshi Yamato
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Posted - 2009.02.06 12:28:00 -
[134]
Edited by: Takeshi Yamato on 06/02/2009 12:29:19 I fully support:
a) removal of learning skills. b) giving everyone +10 to all base attributes c) refunding each pilot an amount of skillpoints equal to what he/she had invested in learning skills.
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van Uber
SAE Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.06 12:33:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: van Uber most of the things you mention will be mended this year.
Not true. Only the avatars. The interface will probably always be extreme, there will never be a way to grind exp, and as far as I know the Learning Curve is still pretty ridiculous.
So I don't know what you're talking about. This is more than just some random option, as I've said, it's part of a dichotemy that shouldn't be tampered with without a real solution. I've heard one or two promising compromises, the OP's suggestion however is not one, and thats the cause for my dissent.
I'd take it you don't read dev blogs and patch notes?
They have a team working on the GUI. They have for the last expansions enhanced the tutorial, introduced welcoming pages and other things to lessen the learning curve for new players. But I guess thats just as bad as removing other dull and stupid elements, such as learning skills.
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Zatharyn
IG Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.06 13:25:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Zatharyn on 06/02/2009 13:25:19 AS someone you manages 700+ Apps a month I can tell you only 30 of them people will remain in eve. My Brother & I have had a lot of experience with newbies & learning skills are one of the main reasons they quit the game. They need to go away. Give everyone +8 to there Chars & erase the Skills. |
Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.06 14:36:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Omber Zombie Normally I would offer to champion this issue but it was discussed in Iceland (off the agenda as part of our discussion regarding the skill queue) and it's already on the drawingboard and being looked at. Raising it as an issue at this time would be pointless as CCP are already discussing this and other options (including the other topic currently active in Assembly Hall) regarding the Learning skills.
This is good to know. Thank you OZ. Learning skills should never have been put into the game in the first place, but now that they are here, currently.. I think there should be some smooth way to withdraw them and streamline the new player experience a little better. The learning skills were the most unfun portion of the game, to me, back when I started. I brought three people into the game with me and we all used to complain about the learning skills when we were hanging out.
More noobs to the fire! They're all the same under my guns!
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.02.06 17:43:00 -
[138]
I think this game would be way better without them, to the point that if that meant losing the sps I had invested in them, then regardless I still think they should go. -- 249km locking? |
Kiotsu Adler
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Posted - 2009.02.06 17:50:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
Originally by: Omber Zombie Normally I would offer to champion this issue but it was discussed in Iceland (off the agenda as part of our discussion regarding the skill queue) and it's already on the drawingboard and being looked at. Raising it as an issue at this time would be pointless as CCP are already discussing this and other options (including the other topic currently active in Assembly Hall) regarding the Learning skills.
This is good to know. Thank you OZ. Learning skills should never have been put into the game in the first place, but now that they are here, currently.. I think there should be some smooth way to withdraw them and streamline the new player experience a little better. The learning skills were the most unfun portion of the game, to me, back when I started. I brought three people into the game with me and we all used to complain about the learning skills when we were hanging out.
More noobs to the fire! They're all the same under my guns!
Totally agreed, and even if only for sympathy, I'll support this thread. Learning skills are horror as much as POS warfare and implementation of cap/supercaps, specially Titans. A big mistake.
p.s: i would even go agaisnt implants, but that's an other issue
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Sensor Boosting
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Posted - 2009.02.06 17:57:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Kiotsu Adler
Totally agreed, and even if only for sympathy, I'll support this thread. Learning skills are horror as much as POS warfare and implementation of cap/supercaps, specially Titans. A big mistake.
p.s: i would even go agaisnt implants, but that's an other issue
why dont you just give everyone every single skill to lvl 5 that way noobs will be able to anything!! yay for noobs doing anything within the first few days, seriously vets trained the learning skills, and we are still here..... only the lazy noobs leave the game bcos its "too hard"
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Reynolds
Third Return Inc. Blue Sun Trust
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Posted - 2009.02.06 19:25:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Tarminic Kill them with fire. I don't care that I'll lose SP. They are the biggest waste of time and a completely arbitrary timesink that discourages new players. New players should be discouraged by the fact that New Eden is a cold, harsh world, not because you have to spend a month essentially training nothing so you can be competitive.
Kill them with fire and then throw the ashes into the sun
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De'Veldrin
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Posted - 2009.02.06 19:58:00 -
[142]
Edited by: De''Veldrin on 06/02/2009 19:58:44 I look at the learning skills like modern day education.
I can choose to go out into the world with a high school diploma (or your equivalent) and get a crapppy job, or I can invest in the huge time and money sink of a University, and when I get done, get a much better job.
And like Eve, I don't have to do all the learning at once. I can go to a junior college for two years, and then go to work for a couple of years to get practical experience. Then I go back to school for another two years and get a four year degree, and then go back to work. Finally, I can get an advanced grraduate degree and then again, go back to work.
Eve is the same way. I can spend some time training my learning skills, then train the non-learning skills to gain experience, then go back for more learning skills.
Additionally, if you're working on Rank 1 or 2 skills at level 1, 2 or (maybe) 3, the difference between having a learning skill trained and not having them trained can be measured in minutes (if not seconds). So the idea that new characters need them is ludicrous to begin with. You won't need them until you're ready to start trainng rank 4 or 6 skills anyway.
It would be more effective to tell people to stop giving noobs bad advice on when they need to train these skills.
NOT SUPPORTED
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BalZaak Swinging
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Posted - 2009.02.06 20:08:00 -
[143]
There is a major flaw if CCP was to refund people training skill time.
If personA only trained learning skills for the first few weeks without training anything else, its clear how much they can be refunded
however, personB trains learning and other needed skills back and forth. His break even point is much farther out than personA. With rough numbers, it has been proven and shown that if two people both have lvl 4 in all learning skills one of those people then train the basic learnings to lvl 5, they both will reach the same ammount of sp in a few months time. The break even point for training the adv learning skills from 4 to 5 are a little over 2 years if i remembered correctly.
So long post short, if your seeing if eve is for you, you dont necessarily have to train the learning skills. One can just train the attributes they are seeking (gun and ship skills for example) to enhance their game play. However, if they know how much or how long they want to play, it would be a good investment to train in the learning skills.
What can not be seen is that if you do train the learning skills, in a few months time you will have more sp (minus the sp from learning skills) than if you didnt train them.
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GeneralNukeEm
Free Collective Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.02.06 20:18:00 -
[144]
Support |
Nhor Haen
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Posted - 2009.02.06 20:27:00 -
[145]
Great idea. The learning skill grind is a horrible thing that new players have to go through, and I'm sure it's resulted in a lot of people quitting (I know I nearly did, and I put it off as long as possible).
Nuke them entirely, or give everyone maxed learning skills, whatever. Just take them out of the game. |
Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 20:52:00 -
[146]
Originally by: De'Veldrin Edited by: De''Veldrin on 06/02/2009 19:58:44 I look at the learning skills like modern day education.
I can choose to go out into the world with a high school diploma (or your equivalent) and get a crapppy job, or I can invest in the huge time and money sink of a University, and when I get done, get a much better job.
And like Eve, I don't have to do all the learning at once. I can go to a junior college for two years, and then go to work for a couple of years to get practical experience. Then I go back to school for another two years and get a four year degree, and then go back to work. Finally, I can get an advanced grraduate degree and then again, go back to work.
Eve is the same way. I can spend some time training my learning skills, then train the non-learning skills to gain experience, then go back for more learning skills.
Additionally, if you're working on Rank 1 or 2 skills at level 1, 2 or (maybe) 3, the difference between having a learning skill trained and not having them trained can be measured in minutes (if not seconds). So the idea that new characters need them is ludicrous to begin with. You won't need them until you're ready to start trainng rank 4 or 6 skills anyway.
It would be more effective to tell people to stop giving noobs bad advice on when they need to train these skills.
NOT SUPPORTED
Exactly this. |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2009.02.06 21:11:00 -
[147]
Originally by: De'Veldrin Edited by: De''Veldrin on 06/02/2009 19:58:44 I look at the learning skills like modern day education.
I can choose to go out into the world with a high school diploma (or your equivalent) and get a crapppy job, or I can invest in the huge time and money sink of a University, and when I get done, get a much better job.
And like Eve, I don't have to do all the learning at once. I can go to a junior college for two years, and then go to work for a couple of years to get practical experience. Then I go back to school for another two years and get a four year degree, and then go back to work. Finally, I can get an advanced grraduate degree and then again, go back to work.
Eve is the same way. I can spend some time training my learning skills, then train the non-learning skills to gain experience, then go back for more learning skills.
Additionally, if you're working on Rank 1 or 2 skills at level 1, 2 or (maybe) 3, the difference between having a learning skill trained and not having them trained can be measured in minutes (if not seconds). So the idea that new characters need them is ludicrous to begin with. You won't need them until you're ready to start trainng rank 4 or 6 skills anyway.
It would be more effective to tell people to stop giving noobs bad advice on when they need to train these skills.
NOT SUPPORTED
This... big time.
But don't expect the OP to have the IQ To understand such things as rationality and discernment. It's like talking to concrete. |
Ankhesentapemkah
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 21:15:00 -
[148]
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Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.06 21:41:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Originally by: De'Veldrin Edited by: De''Veldrin on 06/02/2009 19:58:44 I look at the learning skills like modern day education.
I can choose to go out into the world with a high school diploma (or your equivalent) and get a crapppy job, or I can invest in the huge time and money sink of a University, and when I get done, get a much better job.
And like Eve, I don't have to do all the learning at once. I can go to a junior college for two years, and then go to work for a couple of years to get practical experience. Then I go back to school for another two years and get a four year degree, and then go back to work. Finally, I can get an advanced grraduate degree and then again, go back to work.
Eve is the same way. I can spend some time training my learning skills, then train the non-learning skills to gain experience, then go back for more learning skills.
Additionally, if you're working on Rank 1 or 2 skills at level 1, 2 or (maybe) 3, the difference between having a learning skill trained and not having them trained can be measured in minutes (if not seconds). So the idea that new characters need them is ludicrous to begin with. You won't need them until you're ready to start trainng rank 4 or 6 skills anyway.
It would be more effective to tell people to stop giving noobs bad advice on when they need to train these skills.
NOT SUPPORTED
Exactly this.
How cute. Another real-world analogy that doesn't apply to a game.
Also, keep insulting my intelligence, guys. It makes me laugh. |
De'Veldrin
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 21:50:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow How cute. Another real-world analogy that doesn't apply to a game.
Also, keep insulting my intelligence, guys. It makes me laugh.[/quote
Then let me give you an example directly from the game.
I am currently training my way to Mining Barge 5. Eve Mon suggested I trained a slew of learning skills ahead of time and I went, like I expect most people do "Crap. I don't want to train those".
Then I started looking at the numbers.
Training those skills, which yes, took me a week or more, actually saved me ten days on the overall training plan - including the new learning skills. So not only did it pay for itself, it will continue to pay for itself as I train more advanced skills.
Is that related to the game closely enough for you?
--Vel |
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Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.06 21:58:00 -
[151]
Edited by: Thann Starlinbow on 06/02/2009 21:58:38
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow How cute. Another real-world analogy that doesn't apply to a game.
Also, keep insulting my intelligence, guys. It makes me laugh.[/quote
Then let me give you an example directly from the game.
I am currently training my way to Mining Barge 5. Eve Mon suggested I trained a slew of learning skills ahead of time and I went, like I expect most people do "Crap. I don't want to train those".
Then I started looking at the numbers.
Training those skills, which yes, took me a week or more, actually saved me ten days on the overall training plan - including the new learning skills. So not only did it pay for itself, it will continue to pay for itself as I train more advanced skills.
Is that related to the game closely enough for you?
--Vel
Yes, that's *exactly* my point. You said "Damnit, I don't want to train those learning skills, they're no fun. I want to be training for better skills instead!"
So why not remove the learning skills, boost everyones base attributes and be done with it. Learning skills are not fun, offer no real choice (you lose either way. either train unfun learning skills or train slower) and are not needed.
Thanks for backing my point up for me. |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2009.02.06 22:24:00 -
[152]
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow How cute. Another real-world analogy that doesn't apply to a game.
Also, keep insulting my intelligence, guys. It makes me laugh.[/quote
Then let me give you an example directly from the game.
I am currently training my way to Mining Barge 5. Eve Mon suggested I trained a slew of learning skills ahead of time and I went, like I expect most people do "Crap. I don't want to train those".
Then I started looking at the numbers.
Training those skills, which yes, took me a week or more, actually saved me ten days on the overall training plan - including the new learning skills. So not only did it pay for itself, it will continue to pay for itself as I train more advanced skills.
Is that related to the game closely enough for you?
--Vel
OP doesn't know how to read.... or think... your wasting your time.
Nicely said tho. |
De'Veldrin
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 22:46:00 -
[153]
I know. I'm a glutton for punishment.
@Thann Starlinbow I think you're misunderstanding my point. I didn't have to train those skills. I could have just left well enough alone. By choosing to train them, I accelerated my overall training plan. Was it fun? Meh - fun is a subjective measurement. To a lot of people mining isn't fun. But they do it because it's profitable. So was training the learning skills. If you don't find them profitable, don't train them. |
Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 22:46:00 -
[154]
Edited by: Thann Starlinbow on 06/02/2009 22:49:41
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow How cute. Another real-world analogy that doesn't apply to a game.
Also, keep insulting my intelligence, guys. It makes me laugh.[/quote
Then let me give you an example directly from the game.
I am currently training my way to Mining Barge 5. Eve Mon suggested I trained a slew of learning skills ahead of time and I went, like I expect most people do "Crap. I don't want to train those".
Then I started looking at the numbers.
Training those skills, which yes, took me a week or more, actually saved me ten days on the overall training plan - including the new learning skills. So not only did it pay for itself, it will continue to pay for itself as I train more advanced skills.
Is that related to the game closely enough for you?
--Vel
OP doesn't know how to read.... or think... your wasting your time.
Nicely said tho.
Hey guy, I know you think you're really clever and stuff, especially with the insults, but you're not.
If the Learning skills were removed and attributes boosted then it would result in the same thing except you never have to train the learning skills in the first place.
edit: furthermore, 'you're'. Not 'your'. |
Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
|
Posted - 2009.02.06 22:49:00 -
[155]
Originally by: De'Veldrin I know. I'm a glutton for punishment.
@Thann Starlinbow I think you're misunderstanding my point. I didn't have to train those skills. I could have just left well enough alone. By choosing to train them, I accelerated my overall training plan. Was it fun? Meh - fun is a subjective measurement. To a lot of people mining isn't fun. But they do it because it's profitable. So was training the learning skills. If you don't find them profitable, don't train them.
I realize what you're saying. However, that doesn't make them any less unnecessary. If they were removed from the game and everyones base attributes boosted, it results in the same outcome, minus the "I have to train learning skills" part, which a lot of people find boring and dull.
What part of that is bad?
And please don't come back with "CHOICEZ". It's not a real choice. |
Nnamuachs
Caldari Kiith Paktu Veneratio Venator Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.06 22:56:00 -
[156]
I still don't see the argument behind boosting everyones base attributes tbh. At one point there were no advanced learning skills.. so why not just boost by +5? at one point there were "no" learning skills.. so why boost at all if you're going to remove them.. your logic is you want to train faster without having any sort of work that goes into it. |
Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.02.07 00:50:00 -
[157]
Just get rid of them, give everyone the 12ish points you would have for max learning skills and then only character creation and implants would affect your attributes.
Oh and please find a way to give the vets a way to get the SP back. |
George K'ntara
Angel Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.02.07 00:52:00 -
[158]
I support this idea. Get rid of them give us the points instead, and figure out a way to give older players their SP back. |
Raging George
Krell-Korp
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Posted - 2009.02.07 00:53:00 -
[159]
I support this proposal. |
Saralle Zhukov
Win Tech
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Posted - 2009.02.07 01:19:00 -
[160]
Absolutely 100% support this. I had a friend that tried a trial account and the whole concept of the training skills just drove him nuts. Remove this tedious waste of time. I hated training them. Have one character maxed and one not quite maxed and I don't care if they train faster or not.
----------------------------------- Kill them all God will know his own. |
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.02.07 01:40:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Saralle Zhukov Have one character maxed and one not quite maxed and I don't care if they train faster or not.
That seems to be evidence that it is indeed a choice. I made the same choice. |
Kalia Masaer
Rosa Castellum
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Posted - 2009.02.07 02:38:00 -
[162]
I see both points of the issue and really see both as a good and a bad thing. I cannot personally see a reason to remove them nor can I see a reason not to remove them. They encourage an older and more mature player base who is willing to tough out the time it takes to pick them up, but they also discourage people who may have toughed it out if they realize how much fun the games is after that boring time.
I do like the idea of being rewarded for being patient and willing to take the time to learn them, but perhaps they go to far. Maybe the first tier one attribute specific learning skills should be remove and players just recieve 5 more points on there attrubutes. But keep learning and the second tier skills to reward those who have the patience to be rewarded. This would mean new characters would not lag so far behind if they trained up enough other skills to have some fun before they realized the benefit of the learning skills. |
Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
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Posted - 2009.02.07 02:43:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Kalia Masaer I see both points of the issue and really see both as a good and a bad thing. I cannot personally see a reason to remove them nor can I see a reason not to remove them. They encourage an older and more mature player base who is willing to tough out the time it takes to pick them up, but they also discourage people who may have toughed it out if they realize how much fun the games is after that boring time.
I do like the idea of being rewarded for being patient and willing to take the time to learn them, but perhaps they go to far. Maybe the first tier one attribute specific learning skills should be remove and players just recieve 5 more points on there attrubutes. But keep learning and the second tier skills to reward those who have the patience to be rewarded. This would mean new characters would not lag so far behind if they trained up enough other skills to have some fun before they realized the benefit of the learning skills.
It's more than that though. The learning skills provide a specific alternative to Implants, i.e. invested time over instand gratification.
There are more arguments to keep the skills than to remove them.
|
BalZaak Swinging
Minmatar Raptor Legion Veneratio Venator Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.02.07 03:59:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: Kalia Masaer I see both points of the issue and really see both as a good and a bad thing. I cannot personally see a reason to remove them nor can I see a reason not to remove them. They encourage an older and more mature player base who is willing to tough out the time it takes to pick them up, but they also discourage people who may have toughed it out if they realize how much fun the games is after that boring time.
I do like the idea of being rewarded for being patient and willing to take the time to learn them, but perhaps they go to far. Maybe the first tier one attribute specific learning skills should be remove and players just recieve 5 more points on there attrubutes. But keep learning and the second tier skills to reward those who have the patience to be rewarded. This would mean new characters would not lag so far behind if they trained up enough other skills to have some fun before they realized the benefit of the learning skills.
It's more than that though. The learning skills provide a specific alternative to Implants, i.e. invested time over instand gratification.
There are more arguments to keep the skills than to remove them.
qft
it all matters in the long run. As another poster said that when he added additional learning to his que, his training time shortened. |
SlaveTransport Kiriin
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Posted - 2009.02.07 04:53:00 -
[165]
I support this fully!
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Brick Hampton
|
Posted - 2009.02.07 10:52:00 -
[166]
Give us (old and new) +10 to all attributes to make up for the loss of books and i'm all for it.
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Miner Nine
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.02.07 11:13:00 -
[167]
Can we all just get +20, seriously.
They raise the cost of the game, might as well make everything train faster. |
Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
|
Posted - 2009.02.07 13:32:00 -
[168]
The arguements for removing the learning skills, no matter how deftly worded, all seem to boil down to: "Make it faster! Make it easier!"
Still not supported. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic |
Cormac MacAair
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Posted - 2009.02.07 13:54:00 -
[169]
Agreed.
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De'Veldrin
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Posted - 2009.02.07 14:07:00 -
[170]
Having slept on the topic, I would be willing to offer support for an idea that I think someone else suggested earlier in this thread. Remove the learning skills from the active part of the game and make them part of character creation, but without raising the total number of skill points new characters get.
It seems like an adequate compromise. Old characters don't lose what they have already invested, and new players don't have the dreariness of actively training them. What this would basically do is move the choice of whether to train learning skills into the character creation process, at the expensive of some of the more advanced skills that new characters get. Once they enter the game, those skills are then fixed.
The idea of moving learning skills, I would be willing to support, as long as old players have enough warning to train them before they get shifted. The idea of just dumping them I am still against.
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Greme
Amarr Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.07 14:10:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri The arguements for removing the learning skills, no matter how deftly worded, all seem to boil down to: "Make it faster! Make it easier!"
Still not supported.
Faster may be a correct word to use, but easier is not. Easier suggests that it take alot of effort to click "train".
But nitpicking for the sake of it aside, most of the arguments against it seem to revolve around the keeping of choice, even if thise choice is in fact a Morton's Fork. Both outcomes of learning skills are undesireable, and are only undertaken because of only having two choices, this is real fun gaming material!
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Neesa Corrinne
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2009.02.07 14:24:00 -
[172]
This idea comes up every few months, and no matter how the new person spins it, it always boils down to:
I WANT IT NOOWWWW
I simply can't condone this behavior. I had the patience to train them, thousands of other people have had the patience to train them, and those that don't; leave. Good riddance, sir! ---------------------------------
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StarStryder
Zero-Hour
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Posted - 2009.02.07 14:31:00 -
[173]
Edited by: StarStryder on 07/02/2009 14:36:18 Personally it bother me either way. I've done the training, it's in the past. That said, I can not see what the learning skills bring to game other than tedium.
Someone said earlier that all skill training is boring. Not true. Waiting for a ship skill to complete has a sense of anticipation, something that draws people in. The learning skills do nothing in this regard.
The only caveat is that if they are removed then anyone that has them trained needs to have the ability to reallocate the sp. |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2009.02.07 15:13:00 -
[174]
Originally by: De'Veldrin Having slept on the topic, I would be willing to offer support for an idea that I think someone else suggested earlier in this thread. Remove the learning skills from the active part of the game and make them part of character creation, but without raising the total number of skill points new characters get.
It seems like an adequate compromise. Old characters don't lose what they have already invested, and new players don't have the dreariness of actively training them. What this would basically do is move the choice of whether to train learning skills into the character creation process, at the expensive of some of the more advanced skills that new characters get. Once they enter the game, those skills are then fixed.
The idea of moving learning skills, I would be willing to support, as long as old players have enough warning to train them before they get shifted. The idea of just dumping them I am still against.
This.... if it was going to get taken away.... then the balance along with game mechanics should not be messed with.
SP's should not be raised.. nor lower as a result of them being removed.
Otherwise your screwing with players who have put the time in for those learning skills regardless of what you can dream up for an excuse to have them removed. =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com =============== |
Siegmund Neumann
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Posted - 2009.02.07 18:20:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Tarminic Kill them with fire. I don't care that I'll lose SP. They are the biggest waste of time and a completely arbitrary timesink that discourages new players. New players should be discouraged by the fact that New Eden is a cold, harsh world, not because you have to spend a month essentially training nothing so you can be competitive.
QFT
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Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
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Posted - 2009.02.07 18:34:00 -
[176]
Originally by: StarStryder Edited by: StarStryder on 07/02/2009 14:36:18 Personally it bother me either way. I've done the training, it's in the past. That said, I can not see what the learning skills bring to game other than tedium.
Someone said earlier that all skill training is boring. Not true. Waiting for a ship skill to complete has a sense of anticipation, something that draws people in. The learning skills do nothing in this regard.
The only caveat is that if they are removed then anyone that has them trained needs to have the ability to reallocate the sp.
It's interesting you mention this, because they do something in that regard. They shave off time from every skill they are related to. I have friends who are all new to the game, and they love training one or two levels in learning skills to speed up lvl 4s and 5s.
Most of the people in this thread arguing for the removal of the skills either don't understand the balance they form attribute wise, or they are simply looking for an easier game.
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StarStryder
Zero-Hour
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Posted - 2009.02.07 18:42:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: StarStryder Edited by: StarStryder on 07/02/2009 14:36:18 Personally it bother me either way. I've done the training, it's in the past. That said, I can not see what the learning skills bring to game other than tedium.
Someone said earlier that all skill training is boring. Not true. Waiting for a ship skill to complete has a sense of anticipation, something that draws people in. The learning skills do nothing in this regard.
The only caveat is that if they are removed then anyone that has them trained needs to have the ability to reallocate the sp.
It's interesting you mention this, because they do something in that regard. They shave off time from every skill they are related to. I have friends who are all new to the game, and they love training one or two levels in learning skills to speed up lvl 4s and 5s.
Most of the people in this thread arguing for the removal of the skills either don't understand the balance they form attribute wise, or they are simply looking for an easier game.
To be fair, I've only gone through this once as I don't use alts too much. Back then I had to do basics 5 to get the advanced skills. Might be less tedious these days.
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Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
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Posted - 2009.02.07 18:45:00 -
[178]
Originally by: StarStryder
To be fair, I've only gone through this once as I don't use alts too much. Back then I had to do basics 5 to get the advanced skills. Might be less tedious these days.
Yes, the first time they changed the skills because of the tedium, they made the adv skill requirements basics lvl 4. So yeah it has gotten way better. You can get a good +8 in any skill, with way elss training than it used to require.
I feel as though the learning skills have been messed with enough. To remove them entirely or nerf them further would upset a balance.
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Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.07 18:51:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: StarStryder Edited by: StarStryder on 07/02/2009 14:36:18 Personally it bother me either way. I've done the training, it's in the past. That said, I can not see what the learning skills bring to game other than tedium.
Someone said earlier that all skill training is boring. Not true. Waiting for a ship skill to complete has a sense of anticipation, something that draws people in. The learning skills do nothing in this regard.
The only caveat is that if they are removed then anyone that has them trained needs to have the ability to reallocate the sp.
It's interesting you mention this, because they do something in that regard. They shave off time from every skill they are related to. I have friends who are all new to the game, and they love training one or two levels in learning skills to speed up lvl 4s and 5s.
Most of the people in this thread arguing for the removal of the skills either don't understand the balance they form attribute wise, or they are simply looking for an easier game.
You keep saying this like it means something because you're to stupid to actually think about what anyone else is saying. If they remove the Learning skills and boost attributes at the same time, then it's the same thing as not having to train those learning skills to 'train another skill faster and shave off time'.
But keep repeating it, maybe you can convince people by repeating it over and over.
Like Greme said earlier, the Learning skills are not a real choice. They're just something you lose out on, no matter which choice you make. It's like making a choice between getting punched in the nose or getting punched in the gut.
Personally, I'd rather choose to eat ice cream.
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Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
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Posted - 2009.02.07 19:12:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
You keep saying this like it means something because you're to stupid to actually think about what anyone else is saying. If they remove the Learning skills and boost attributes at the same time, then it's the same thing as not having to train those learning skills to 'train another skill faster and shave off time'.
But keep repeating it, maybe you can convince people by repeating it over and over.
Like Greme said earlier, the Learning skills are not a real choice. They're just something you lose out on, no matter which choice you make. It's like making a choice between getting punched in the nose or getting punched in the gut.
Personally, I'd rather choose to eat ice cream.
You're a Myopic imbecile.
Removing the learning skills and simply boosting everyone's attributes is just as pointless as removing them and LOWERING everyone's attribute points. If all you want is a short, easier, game - perhaps you should go play something else.
Whether you like it or not the skills and how they are trained are a choice. It's a choice between time-investment with the skills, and cash investment with implants. You can dress it up all you like, and say it's not a choice, but thats arguing semantics. Not reality.
You're a fool, and trying to argue with me just shows all the little leaks in your Failboat. |
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StarStryder
Zero-Hour
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Posted - 2009.02.07 19:28:00 -
[181]
I'm still inclined to support this but I agree that it may not be worth the development time involved. Certainly there's more important concerns.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2009.02.07 20:21:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
You keep saying this like it means something because you're to stupid to actually think about what anyone else is saying. If they remove the Learning skills and boost attributes at the same time, then it's the same thing as not having to train those learning skills to 'train another skill faster and shave off time'.
But keep repeating it, maybe you can convince people by repeating it over and over.
Like Greme said earlier, the Learning skills are not a real choice. They're just something you lose out on, no matter which choice you make. It's like making a choice between getting punched in the nose or getting punched in the gut.
Personally, I'd rather choose to eat ice cream.
You're a Myopic imbecile.
Removing the learning skills and simply boosting everyone's attributes is just as pointless as removing them and LOWERING everyone's attribute points. If all you want is a short, easier, game - perhaps you should go play something else.
Whether you like it or not the skills and how they are trained are a choice. It's a choice between time-investment with the skills, and cash investment with implants. You can dress it up all you like, and say it's not a choice, but thats arguing semantics. Not reality.
You're a fool, and trying to argue with me just shows all the little leaks in your Failboat.
ITS OVER 9000!!!! (Pwn4g3) =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com =============== |
Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.07 21:23:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
You keep saying this like it means something because you're to stupid to actually think about what anyone else is saying. If they remove the Learning skills and boost attributes at the same time, then it's the same thing as not having to train those learning skills to 'train another skill faster and shave off time'.
But keep repeating it, maybe you can convince people by repeating it over and over.
Like Greme said earlier, the Learning skills are not a real choice. They're just something you lose out on, no matter which choice you make. It's like making a choice between getting punched in the nose or getting punched in the gut.
Personally, I'd rather choose to eat ice cream.
You're a Myopic imbecile.
Removing the learning skills and simply boosting everyone's attributes is just as pointless as removing them and LOWERING everyone's attribute points. If all you want is a short, easier, game - perhaps you should go play something else.
Whether you like it or not the skills and how they are trained are a choice. It's a choice between time-investment with the skills, and cash investment with implants. You can dress it up all you like, and say it's not a choice, but thats arguing semantics. Not reality.
You're a fool, and trying to argue with me just shows all the little leaks in your Failboat.
And you're an idiot. Look, you can keep tossing insults all you want and so can I.
Training the learning skills may be a 'choice' but it's not a real one, as much as you keep trying to convince yourself of that.
Why don't you go for some more ad hominem arguements, I hear they work real well in proving your point. Oh wait, no they don't.
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Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
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Posted - 2009.02.07 21:40:00 -
[184]
Edited by: Efrim Black on 07/02/2009 21:40:45
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
And you're an idiot. Look, you can keep tossing insults all you want and so can I.
Training the learning skills may be a 'choice' but it's not a real one, as much as you keep trying to convince yourself of that.
Why don't you go for some more ad hominem arguements, I hear they work real well in proving your point. Oh wait, no they don't.
It's funny you start throwing Latin at me, like some pseudo-intellectual dipstick.
Even more ironic is you don't seem to know what that means. You're the one Arguing against the source without evidence. I produced a logical Dichotemy as to why the skills shouldn't be removed. You just ignored it.
I point out it's a choice. You say it's not a 'real' choice. Your vapid empty rhetoric just makes you look like a bumbling fool. Also, for the record, you started the insults several pages ago, astonished that anyone could disagree with your poorly executed and poorly thought out suggestion.
Removing skills and boosting attributes as you say would only leave the player with fewer options of how to develop their character, while simultaneosly crippling half of the attribute gain system. Leaving only Implants.
I will not repeat this argument again for you. If you don't get it this time I'm going to chalk it up to inbreeding or a fault in your education.
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Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.07 21:57:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Efrim Black Edited by: Efrim Black on 07/02/2009 21:40:45
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
And you're an idiot. Look, you can keep tossing insults all you want and so can I.
Training the learning skills may be a 'choice' but it's not a real one, as much as you keep trying to convince yourself of that.
Why don't you go for some more ad hominem arguements, I hear they work real well in proving your point. Oh wait, no they don't.
It's funny you start throwing Latin at me, like some pseudo-intellectual dipstick.
Even more ironic is you don't seem to know what that means. You're the one Arguing against the source without evidence. I produced a logical Dichotemy as to why the skills shouldn't be removed. You just ignored it.
Originally by: Wikipedia Ad hominem argument is most commonly used to refer specifically to the ad hominem as abusive, sexist, racist, or argumentum ad personam, which consists of criticizing or attacking the person who proposed the argument (personal attack) in an attempt to discredit the argument. It is also used when an opponent is unable to find fault with an argument, yet for various reasons, the opponent disagrees with it.
Try again, you failure.
Originally by: Efrim Black I point out it's a choice. You say it's not a 'real' choice. Your vapid empty rhetoric just makes you look like a bumbling fool. Also, for the record, you started the insults several pages ago, astonished that anyone could disagree with your poorly executed and poorly thought out suggestion.
It's not a real choice, as was pointed out to you several times, you just choose to ignore it. The 'choice' you so espouse is merely choosing one of two undesirable alternatives. Either 1. Train learning skills, which are widely acknowledged not to be fun or 2. Train slower than everyone else, thereby falling behind. That's not a choice.
Originally by: Efrim Black Removing skills and boosting attributes as you say would only leave the player with fewer options of how to develop their character, while simultaneosly crippling half of the attribute gain system. Leaving only Implants.
If player attributes were boosted when Learning skills were removed, it wouldn't matter. Or is that to complicated for you to understand? This statement is merely an extension of your previous "BUT IT'S REALLY A REAL CHOICE" arguement.
Originally by: Efrim Black I will not repeat this argument again for you. If you don't get it this time I'm going to chalk it up to inbreeding or a fault in your education.
Oh look, more ad hominem attacks. How cute.
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Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
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Posted - 2009.02.07 22:13:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Efrim Black
You're the one Arguing against the source without evidence. I produced a logical Dichotemy as to why the skills shouldn't be removed. You just ignored it.
Yeah I had to quote myself since your wall of text did exactly what I said you'd do. You ignore the core of my argument.
Also - you began in the insults, hence the irony in your little ad hominem BS.
Again - the skills give you an option of HOW to develop your character's attributes = A CHOICE.
Boosting all attributes removes the choice.
How long do you want this to go on? I can do this all year. |
Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.07 22:18:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: Efrim Black
You're the one Arguing against the source without evidence. I produced a logical Dichotemy as to why the skills shouldn't be removed. You just ignored it.
Yeah I had to quote myself since your wall of text did exactly what I said you'd do. You ignore the core of my argument.
Also - you began in the insults, hence the irony in your little ad hominem BS.
Again - the skills give you an option of HOW to develop your character's attributes = A CHOICE.
Boosting all attributes removes the choice.
How long do you want this to go on? I can do this all year.
Hey, so can I. It's not a real choice. It's a choice from two bad options.
Want to repeat how it's a choice again? |
Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
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Posted - 2009.02.07 22:24:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow [
Hey, so can I. It's not a real choice. It's a choice from two bad options.
Want to repeat how it's a choice again?
Here is the page where I made the argument the first time.
I won't repeat myself just because you have trouble making sense of it.
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Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.07 22:28:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow [
Hey, so can I. It's not a real choice. It's a choice from two bad options.
Want to repeat how it's a choice again?
Here is the page where I made the argument the first time.
I won't repeat myself just because you have trouble making sense of it.
It's because your arguement has no merit. vOv
Choice from two bad options is not a real choice. |
Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
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Posted - 2009.02.07 22:29:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow [
Hey, so can I. It's not a real choice. It's a choice from two bad options.
Want to repeat how it's a choice again?
Here is the page where I made the argument the first time.
I won't repeat myself just because you have trouble making sense of it.
It's because your arguement has no merit. vOv
Choice from two bad options is not a real choice.
What makes those options bad is subjective - and not everyone agrees they are bad options.
Oh and by the way - bad options don't nullify the choice. |
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Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.07 22:31:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow [
Hey, so can I. It's not a real choice. It's a choice from two bad options.
Want to repeat how it's a choice again?
Here is the page where I made the argument the first time.
I won't repeat myself just because you have trouble making sense of it.
It's because your arguement has no merit. vOv
Choice from two bad options is not a real choice.
What makes those options bad is subjective - and not everyone agrees they are bad options.
Oh and by the way - bad options don't nullify the choice.
They don't nullify the choice, they just make it a BAD one.
And the majority of players in this game all hated having to train the Learning skills. |
Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
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Posted - 2009.02.07 22:32:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
And the majority of players in this game all hated having to train the Learning skills.
Bull. ****.
You're pulling that out of your rear because you got a few supports. |
Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.07 22:40:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
And the majority of players in this game all hated having to train the Learning skills.
Bull. ****.
You're pulling that out of your rear because you got a few supports.
Actually, personal anecdotes. I've never talked to anyone.. and I've been playing this game for three years now.. who has liked training the Learning skills.
But that's kind of why I started this thread.. to see how many people think the same way.
S'ok though, CCP are already working on this issue. vOv |
Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
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Posted - 2009.02.07 22:56:00 -
[194]
Edited by: Efrim Black on 07/02/2009 23:03:48
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
Actually, personal anecdotes. I've never talked to anyone.. and I've been playing this game for three years now.. who has liked training the Learning skills.
But that's kind of why I started this thread.. to see how many people think the same way.
S'ok though, CCP are already working on this issue. vOv
Cool story brah. Don't care at all. I've been around quite awhile and I've had the opposite experience. The only people who didn't appreciate the Learning skills, didn't even have the patience to get into Battlecruisers.
And in any case, this board is about matters for the CSM. I don't care what CCP says it's doing. I will argue against this issue and vote against any CSM rep who supports it.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.02.07 23:55:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Efrim Black I will argue against this issue and vote against any CSM rep who supports it.
Same. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic |
Nnamuachs
Caldari Kiith Paktu Veneratio Venator Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.08 02:28:00 -
[196]
One thing that hasnt been addressed this whole time is why boost the attributes, i'm going to keep harping on this one until someone actually gives an answer. I've seen reasons on both sides in regards to removing the learning skills (which i dont support) but not a single one why to boost attributes once they're gone. So why, if you want them removed so badly don't you just ask for them to be removed and be done with it? |
Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
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Posted - 2009.02.08 02:49:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Nnamuachs One thing that hasnt been addressed this whole time is why boost the attributes, i'm going to keep harping on this one until someone actually gives an answer. I've seen reasons on both sides in regards to removing the learning skills (which i dont support) but not a single one why to boost attributes once they're gone. So why, if you want them removed so badly don't you just ask for them to be removed and be done with it?
They want the attributes boosted to basically take the effect of all learning skills lvl 5.
i.e. They want no options to expand your attributes other than implants.
By boosting everyones attributes, everyone would train even faster.
I see why a lot of these people want the skills removed, I just don't agree with it, and I think it would take away part of the game thats very necessary. |
Mysttina
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Posted - 2009.02.08 07:42:00 -
[198]
Fully supported.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2009.02.08 08:16:00 -
[199]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 08/02/2009 08:19:37 Isn't it funny how the OP can't resist responding to every post?
Guess he has inferiority complex issues.
Oh and Mr. OP... learn to read an encyclopedia... or a dictionary.
No Wikipedia doesn't count.... especially if it can be edited by anyone and everyone.
It's sure as hell no authority... =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com =============== |
Takeshi Yamato
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Posted - 2009.02.08 11:24:00 -
[200]
A decent middle ground would be removing the advanced learning skills and refunding the sp invested in them and increasing all base attributes by 5.
With this the learning tab would be maxed out with 1536000 sp instead of the ~5mil it currently is. A new player would have to spend only about a week to get nearly the same attributes that a player with V basic and IV advanced skills has now.
That said I still don't see the point of having learning skills at all.
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Euriti
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.02.08 11:41:00 -
[201]
Supporting this. It's a needless timesink putting off new players. |
Sensor Boosting
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Posted - 2009.02.08 12:43:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Euriti Supporting this. It's a needless timesink putting off new players.
it isnt needless, it only puts off players who are too impatient.
too all the people saying "training learning skills is not fun" do you think training skills to lvl 5 is fun? no-one forces you to train the learning skills! if you dont want to train them, then dont, you just want and easy game.... |
Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.02.08 14:35:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Sensor Boosting
it isnt needless, it only puts off players who are too impatient.
too all the people saying "training learning skills is not fun" do you think training skills to lvl 5 is fun? no-one forces you to train the learning skills! if you dont want to train them, then dont, you just want and easy game....
If they win this little whine-fest the level 5's will be next target of an "improved skill training" thread. "Make level 5 skills faster to train! They take too long! It discourages new players and makes them quit! We should have level 5 skills NOW!"
Still not supporting (obviously) |
Clementina
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.02.08 17:34:00 -
[204]
I am going to support this.
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Onnen Mentar
Murientor Tribe
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Posted - 2009.02.08 23:41:00 -
[205]
I fully support this. Learning skills take loads of fun out of EVE for new players. |
Nefteus
Caldari Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.02.09 12:12:00 -
[206]
Yeah sure, why not give everything to everyone for free right now. Like someone rightly remarked: next the lvl 5s, then anything over rank 8, so best do everything in one go right now.
No more waiting for skills to finish, only "fun" left. No postponed rewards, just instant gratification.
Very bad idea imo. Not supported.
"IF POSSIBLE, vets should have the skillpoints refunded and allow them to place it wherever they want. If that is to technically complicated, then just remove them."
Thann thanks for completely disregarding the months I put in training them. Ofcourse vets wont be upset if you just take 5mil SP away, and give advantage to people who did not have the patience and long-term planning to train them.
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