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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.18 20:30:00 -
[391]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Goumindong
All the ships that field tanks that lasers are strong against have a similar damage type advantage coming right back. The relative advantage there is zero.
Should also mention that the laser boat will have a very decent advantage in total dps in that case though.
So I'd say relative advantage is in favor of the laser boat usually.
They will have a pretty decent raw damage advantage over a Mega, but not over the other options. Ravens and Maelstroms do a lot of DPS(Maels are low on range though)
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Theron Gyrow
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.02.18 21:04:00 -
[392]
Originally by: Goumindong its a medium sized gang, who the hell cares how well you hit under 20km?
Since you claim that Amarr should absolutely rule only medium-sized gangs and up (and isn't that magnanimous of you), you then support nerfing pulses at under 20km range?
Goumindong, really, your penchant for switching arguments without any consideration (except what supports your current point) is starting to show off too much in this thread; even people who haven't had the, ahem, pleasure to converse with you before are starting to comment. Just slink away and everyone will be happier - you will keep what there is left of your dignity and others can start really discussing what could be done with the short-range large gun balance without your intentional disruptions, misrepresentations and outright lies.
Or, of course, you could start conversing in good faith. Heh. -- Gradient forum |
Chi Quan
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.02.18 21:06:00 -
[393]
Originally by: Goumindong ...
how about ACTUALLY FLYING those ships for starters Goumindong? ---- Ceterum censeo blasters need some tracking love |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.18 21:30:00 -
[394]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Since you claim that Amarr should absolutely rule only medium-sized gangs and up (and isn't that magnanimous of you), you then support nerfing pulses at under 20km range?
Just because pulses should be the king of the medium sized gang does not mean that their utility at lower ranges should be zero just as the utility of blaster ships is not zero in a medium sized gang(still doing a good amount of DPS out to 27km). Just as their rails extend their range beyond 35-50km, pulses extend their range lower. They rightly fall off in effectiveness around 10km(while their relative advantage is broken for other types of combat well before that)
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StuckNJita
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Posted - 2009.02.18 21:45:00 -
[395]
I just wanted to see my name in this thread. I agree, blasters need a boost, or all gallente ships need a web bonus.
That is all. Thanks.
------------------ Yes, the early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.. |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.02.18 22:01:00 -
[396]
Edited by: Murina on 18/02/2009 22:01:30
Originally by: Goumindong
Just because pulses should be the king of the medium sized gang does not mean that their utility at lower ranges should be zero just as the utility of blaster ships is not zero in a medium sized gang(still doing a good amount of DPS out to 27km).
The hyperion doing 350ish gun dps at 27km (and a lot less over that range) is not what anybody could consider good.
Especially when the abaddon is doing with its guns alone 900+dps from 0-15km and 750dps out to 45km.
Originally by: Goumindong Just as their rails extend their range beyond 35-50km, pulses extend their range lower.
Interesting, now tell us how a mwga can switch from blasters to rails as easily as pulse can switch crystals and you still will not have a point but at least you will not look so obvious and stupid in your attempts to manipulate.
Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal cos lasers fragment when you approach them
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2009.02.18 22:12:00 -
[397]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 18/02/2009 22:13:23
Originally by: Murina
Especially when the abaddon is doing with its guns alone 900+dps from 0-15km and 750dps out to 45km.
Until you factor in transversal that is. In reality the baddon wont do more than maybe 500 up to 5km (and below 5km it looks really bad), and about 800 at 10km and more.
As long as the enemy BS is moving, the baddon will infact never do 900+ dps, regardless at what range he is.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.02.18 22:17:00 -
[398]
Edited by: Murina on 18/02/2009 22:17:58
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Murina
Especially when the abaddon is doing with its guns alone 900+dps from 0-15km and 750dps out to 45km.
Until you factor in transversal that is. In reality the baddon wont do more than maybe 500 up to 5km (and below 5km it looks really bad), and about 800 at 10km and more.
Nobody gets full DPS at very close ranges if you include transversal figures, even blasters.
Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal cos lasers fragment when you approach them
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2009.02.18 22:22:00 -
[399]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 18/02/2009 22:26:27
Originally by: Murina
Nobody gets full DPS at very close ranges if you include transversal figures, even blasters.
Ofc not, my point was gallente being always superior to amarr up to 10km. I edit my earlier post to clarify.
Lets say baddon does 500 dps to target at 5km, hype will do 650 to same target and mega 760+.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.02.18 22:27:00 -
[400]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Murina
Nobody gets full DPS at very close ranges if you include transversal figures, even blasters.
Ofc not, my point was gallente being always superior to amarr up to 10km. I edit my earlier post to clarify.
Actually upto 9km depending on ship/fit ect, but the fact is that amarr being good inside 10km and better than gallente from 10km to 27km then having no competition from 27-45km+ falloff with just the instant swap of a crystal is too much of a gap.
Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal cos lasers fragment when you approach them
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2009.02.18 22:28:00 -
[401]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 18/02/2009 22:32:23 Well, if you ask me scorch is broken, thats the whole issue there is.
Swap optimal/falloff on scorch and all is fine. Dunno what really, but agreed lasers get the cake and can eat it too.
Quote: And the amusing thing is that nobody is asking to nerf amarr they are just saying that blasters need more dmg out to 20km, but ppl like gourm see it as closing the gap and making their OP system less of a I-WIN.
Well yea, blasters are just fine after QR, its lasers that need a damn nerf.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.02.18 22:34:00 -
[402]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Well, if you ask me scorch is broken, thats the whole issue there is.
Swap optimal/falloff on scorch and all is fine.
I do not have too much of a issue with amarr apart from the fact that they are too good compared to the other systems, so a marginal buff to the other sysyems is needed to LESSEN the gap.
Not close it or overtake like gourm is trying to spin to ppl to gain support for his pathetic trolling.
Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal cos lasers fragment when you approach them
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2009.02.18 22:37:00 -
[403]
Hmm, in some way I cant really believe blasters and autocannons both need boosting, just nerf pulses and be done with it, everything else will fall in place.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.02.18 22:43:00 -
[404]
Originally by: Omara Otawan Hmm, in some way I cant really believe blasters and autocannons both need boosting, just nerf pulses and be done with it, everything else will fall in place.
Blasters are useless in BS close range gang combat and they will not be made at least a little bit more useful by nerfing pulse.
Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal cos lasers fragment when you approach them
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2009.02.18 22:46:00 -
[405]
Originally by: Murina
Blasters are useless in BS close range gang combat and they will not be made at least a little bit more useful by nerfing pulse.
Huh? I bolded the really ridiculous part of that statement.
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Deschenus Maximus
Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2009.02.18 22:49:00 -
[406]
Edited by: Deschenus Maximus on 18/02/2009 22:56:07
Originally by: Goumindong
All the ships that field tanks that lasers are strong against have a similar damage type advantage coming right back. The relative advantage there is zero.
But pulse boats have other advantages going for them as well, not just damage.
Originally by: Goumindong At how much range and how long does the cap last? A DBH geddon has raw numbers at its side but its only got 26+15km range compared to the 36+30 that you've got on the Mega. That is a big difference.
36+30 is on 425mm. 350mm is 27 + 25. Only 2km more optimal than DHB (and a lot more falloff, admitedly). And the cap lasts about as long as on the 350mm Mega.
Originally by: Goumindong Look at the numbers, a Gank Hyp already wins in DPS only out to about 15km against an Abaddon. Extending the falloff and optimal would end that and you would push the range at which Amarr can be valuable out to 35km+. 35-50km is not a large window of operation(its about 1/5th the effective distance that a blaster boat commands now)
But I don't want to extend the optimal AND the falloff. I want to reduce the falloff and then extend the optimal so they are at a 1:1 ratio. Optimal + falloff range would remain the same.
Originally by: Goumindong I am making the basis of the argument for the position that things will change. That there is essentially a point that players will reach their ideal weapon system for the type of work that they do. Most of the posts here(including by you) are predicated on some ideal that people would still fly laser boats if they could fly blaster boats and not have to worry about the disadvantages. I.E. that they would not change.
We know that is false, since before the changes to resistance(which is a big long interesting topic in and of itself) "no one" was flying pulse ships in that manner.
I was. Anyone not stupid and that understood that less total damage but more damage now (because you're already hitting the target while everybody else is moving to range) understood why pulse lasers were good.
Originally by: Goumindong But 27km is not the distances at which the majority of these fights take place. And when you're engaging much farther than that you're in sniper territory, where the question of pulse lasers is irrelevant.
But you're the one that said Gallente should be using rails in gangs. So which is it? Either rails are good for gangs, or they are not.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.02.18 22:52:00 -
[407]
Edited by: Murina on 18/02/2009 22:55:53
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Murina
Blasters are useless in BS close range gang combat and they will not be made at least a little bit more useful by nerfing pulse.
Huh? I bolded the really ridiculous part of that statement.
Why is it ridiculous?, just cos blasters have the good dps at close range does not make them good in gang combat.
I dunno who you fight but most ppl do not fight at 4.5km (neutron blaster optimal) and gangs tend to spread out so ships that need to burn after every primary target just to get into optimal tend to suck.
How can you not understand that?.
Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal cos lasers fragment when you approach them
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Deschenus Maximus
Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2009.02.18 22:54:00 -
[408]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Hmm, in some way I cant really believe blasters and autocannons both need boosting, just nerf pulses and be done with it, everything else will fall in place.
This game has already slided way too much towards tanking > ganking for my taste, nerfing lasers instead of boosting the rest would just make things even worse.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2009.02.18 23:01:00 -
[409]
Originally by: Murina
I dunno who you fight but most ppl do not fight at 4km and gangs tend to spread out so ships that need to burn after every primary target just to get into optimal tend to suck.
How can you not understand that?.
Well, I dunno who you fight, but most fights I'm in are revolving around up to 24km range. Blasters get the 0-10km range advantage, lasers the 10-24km range advantage.
Blasters can cover the whole range they need to with null, while being vastly superior below 8km with faction AM.
While burning to target is a disadvantage at first glimpse, it doesnt take a genius to realize this doesnt matter much if anything as long as you're in a fight that takes a while rather than a cheap gank where the target is down in seconds.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.02.18 23:08:00 -
[410]
Edited by: Murina on 18/02/2009 23:11:07
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Well, I dunno who you fight, but most fights I'm in are revolving around up to 24km range. Blasters get the 0-10km range advantage, lasers the 10-24km range advantage.
Tacklers need only be within 24km pulse can hit great out to 45km so burning away is always a option as well as warping in at range.
While blasters ships even landing in their optimal need to chase down every single primary to be able to hit hard.
Originally by: Omara Otawan While burning to target is a disadvantage at first glimpse, it doesnt take a genius to realize this doesnt matter much if anything as long as you're in a fight that takes a while.
Wrong cos pulse have larger ehp as well as the ability to lay down very high dps ALL the time while blasters do crap dmg while they are trying to chase and catch every ship they wanna kill one after another, and that includes accelerating after ships already at speed while getting pounded.
Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal cos lasers fragment when you approach them
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Deschenus Maximus
Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2009.02.18 23:11:00 -
[411]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
While burning to target is a disadvantage at first glimpse, it doesnt take a genius to realize this doesnt matter much if anything as long as you're in a fight that takes a while rather than a cheap gank where the target is down in seconds.
Wat? It matters more in that type of fight.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2009.02.18 23:40:00 -
[412]
Originally by: Murina
Tacklers need only be within 24km pulse can hit great out to 45km so burning away is always a option as well as warping in at range.
If we agree tacklers are in the picture burning away will be rather difficult. And even if not, blaster platforms are generally faster than pulse platforms if I'm not mistaken.
Also, laser boats will struggle to supply the cap to mwd away and shoot at the same time anyway.
Quote:
Wrong cos pulse have larger ehp as well as the ability to lay down very high dps ALL the time while blasters do crap dmg while they are trying to chase and catch every ship they wanna kill one after another, and that includes accelerating after ships already at speed while getting pounded.
First off they are faster for that very reason, and second the amarr BSs will cap themselves out pretty fast if they try to move and shoot.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.02.18 23:53:00 -
[413]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
If we agree tacklers are in the picture burning away will be rather difficult.
Why its not like a bubble effects multiple ships speed or mwd's.
Originally by: Omara Otawan And even if not, blaster platforms are generally faster than pulse platforms if I'm not mistaken.
From a standing start and top speed they are but after the first kill they will need to turn and accelerate after ships that are already at speed and not only that but they need to do the whole thing over and over again for every ship they primary.
Originally by: Omara Otawan First off they are faster for that very reason, and second the amarr BSs will cap themselves out pretty fast if they try to move and shoot.
A few ms top speed difference especially when the blasters need to accelerate for every new target is insignificant, and cap is only a issue for the amarr ship that is being chased as it will be using its MWD, the rest can cruise and save their cap until its needed.
Oh and gallente ships will need to almost constantly mwd and fire so they will cap out as a gang a lot sooner.
Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal cos lasers fragment when you approach them
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2009.02.19 00:06:00 -
[414]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 19/02/2009 00:10:41 Edited by: Omara Otawan on 19/02/2009 00:08:20
Originally by: Murina
Why its not like a bubble effects multiple ships speed or mwd's.
Its not like there arent ships like Rapier, Huginn, Arazu, Lachesis, Curse and the whole bunch of frigates that can fix that. I can easily tank sentries and keep 3 BS in place in the rapier for example.
Also, we can safely ignore bubbles as they only apply to a minority of the eve population anyway.
Quote: Oh and gallente ships will need to almost constantly mwd and fire so they will cap out as a gang a lot sooner.
A Mega for example lasts a whole 8 minutes on permamwd while shooting a full neutron rack, also they have a slightly bigger cargo bay for charges. Baddon caps out after 2 mins.
Also, it is quite more than a few ms speed advantage, more like a few hundred ms.
Admittedly its a bit pointless to compare them anyways, as amarr generally dont even have the option to tank actively (and active tanks are generally a lot better in small gang engagements).
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Rip Minner
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Posted - 2009.02.19 00:09:00 -
[415]
Edited by: Rip Minner on 19/02/2009 00:14:26 You nerf pulse lazers then the larger part of Ammar ships go to hell.
Missils are fine can change out damg types and use fof. Hybrid class ships have other major fall back ships in ether drones or missils. And you can find a Min ship that can do omost anything from project/drones/missils.
Personly I think blasters need ether faster tracking or range inc. project need faster tracking would not like to see a farther range inc there.
Your all forgeting that Lazers in large part use major cap and have Large power grid needs. Thats there draw backs.
Edit: For got to point out that Ammar ships are the slowest ships in the verse so its very unlikely that they can stay out of your range for very long.
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The Djego
Minmatar merovinger inc
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Posted - 2009.02.19 00:52:00 -
[416]
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Hmm, in some way I cant really believe blasters and autocannons both need boosting, just nerf pulses and be done with it, everything else will fall in place.
This game has already slided way too much towards tanking > ganking for my taste, nerfing lasers instead of boosting the rest would just make things even worse.
Fully agree here. With Rigs and Combat boosters the game shifted in a very tanky direction, since Damage rigs are stacked and have Drawbacks that counter the Gank fitting(by simply increasing Powergrid use) while Tank Rigs donŠt stack with other Mods or have only light penaltys. Nerfing things even more is like thinking a Passvie Drake vs Passive Drake looks like fun. It isnŠt, it is booring like hell if the Tank totaly overcome the Damage in 1o1s or smallscale PVP.
Originally by: Omara Otawan
A Mega for example lasts a whole 8 minutes on permamwd while shooting a full neutron rack, also they have a slightly bigger cargo bay for charges. Baddon caps out after 2 mins.
Also, it is quite more than a few ms speed advantage, more like a few hundred ms.
Admittedly its a bit pointless to compare them anyways, as amarr generally dont even have the option to tank actively (and active tanks are generally a lot better in small gang engagements).
Abaddon donŠt needs to MWD around(and usely donŠt even fit a MWD), I can even run a LAR untill I run out of Cap Charges. Cap is actualy a bit worse on the Mega since you tend to MWD around a lot this days(catching targets that try to leave Web Range or getting range tot Targets that you canŠt hit a close), also a Med Cap Booster is what I running on my passive Mega most of the time for the simpe reason that I need a Heavy Neut to stand a chance vs smaller Ships and thigs that prefere to stay out of 20km range...
Amarr have the better passive Tanks(and suprisingly the better active ones to if you donŠt fit a MWD). Amarr Tanks got the Slot or resistance Advantage and the Cap Penalty isnŠt this bad if go passive or single Rep(while Dualrep take away the gank on a Blaster Ship to and makes you a easy target for the next engagement where you hit some Neuts).
---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.02.19 08:52:00 -
[417]
Edited by: Murina on 19/02/2009 08:59:39
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Its not like there arent ships like Rapier, Huginn, Arazu, Lachesis, Curse and the whole bunch of frigates that can fix that. I can easily tank sentries and keep 3 BS in place in the rapier for example.
Try flying those ships into or around a 20+ man BS gang and see how long you last, bubbles are the tackle of choice vs a BS gang bud.
Originally by: Omara Otawan Also, we can safely ignore bubbles as they only apply to a minority of the eve population anyway.
Like ALL the pvpers in 0.0?.....
Originally by: Omara Otawan A Mega for example lasts a whole 8 minutes on permamwd while shooting a full neutron rack, also they have a slightly bigger cargo bay for charges. Baddon caps out after 2 mins.
The baddon using its mwd does cap out in 2 mins and that is quite long enough for most fights as i have never run my mwd that long in a BS before ever tbh. All his buddies do not need to run theirs constantly at all unless they get primaried/approached so their cap lasts a lot longer.
While as i said the megas need to constantly burn theirs to keep chasing after and catching ships that are getting further and further away and laying down hard dps.
Originally by: Omara Otawan Also, it is quite more than a few ms speed advantage, more like a few hundred ms.
200ms = a 10km gain every 50 seconds + the megas acceleration time after every kill, while taking fire from a gang of pulse baddons. The megas will get a couple of kills no doubt but after the initial kill or two the travel distance to the next baddons will be longer and they will die without getting many if any more kills.
Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal cos lasers fragment when you approach them
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Chi Quan
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.02.19 10:30:00 -
[418]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
A Mega for example lasts a whole 8 minutes on permamwd while shooting a full neutron rack, also they have a slightly bigger cargo bay for charges. Baddon caps out after 2 mins.
That is not true. A Netronmega shooting AM/any t2 and MWDing caps out after ~2min. If he has a heavy injector (thus forgoing the neutralizer) it caps out after 4:45min (provided of course he has enough charges, which he doesn't). If the Mega uses a medium injector + neut, it caps out after 2min, when not using the neut at all and after 1:30min if permanently on.
A fit similar to the heavy injector Mega for an Abbadon is stable as long as charges are available and caps out after 1 min shooting & mwding. A slightly tankier fit with AB is cap stable with charges (not that it needs the AB), has a whooping 20k more ehp and 100dps less (which comes mostly from the missing drones, without them the difference is 7dps), and is able to run all without injector for ~2:40 (~3:40 if no AB is needed).
---- Ceterum censeo blasters need some tracking love |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.19 12:21:00 -
[419]
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Hmm, in some way I cant really believe blasters and autocannons both need boosting, just nerf pulses and be done with it, everything else will fall in place.
This game has already slided way too much towards tanking > ganking for my taste, nerfing lasers instead of boosting the rest would just make things even worse.
I'll get to some of the other things later, but i am quite surprised by this. If the game has slid way too much towards tanking>ganking for your taste, how in the world can you then come and claim that lasers are too powerful and blasters not powerful enough?
Blasters are the quintessential tanking weapon, lasers the quintessential ganking weapon. When tanking is stronger, fights tend to shift in close. They advantage the ships that can do as much as possible in low DPS situations. When ganking is more likely, fights tend to shift farther away, because range limits other players from taking part as well as they would otherwise. This is why you see larger fleets dedicated nearly entirely to ganking from hundreds of kilometers away.
The thoughts that "blasters need a boost" and "the game has slid too much towards tanking>ganking for my taste" are entirely dissonant with each other. They are mutually exclusive.
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Rhadamantine
Game Community
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Posted - 2009.02.19 13:39:00 -
[420]
^^^^ More gorm word games, he's just so good at it now.
Regards. Rhadamantine. |
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