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The reason why the "new player experience" is WORSE in M10

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bff Jill	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:14:00 - [91] Edited by: bff Jill on 10/02/2009 21:15:38 Remove learning skills, give everyone +10 to all attributes. Since this 'two times training speed' capability is now in the game, simply take every character, before deleting the learning skills entirely note how many skill points in learning skills those people had, and give them 2 times training speed until those skill points can be recovered. (so if you had 1million in learning skills, you will train 2times as fast for the next 2 million skill points). Leaving the current races/bloodlines alone. And sure, let newbies start with 60k and have two times training until 1.6mil, with learning skills out of the picture this would be just fine.
Vikura Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:28:00 - [92] Oh and, wouldn't it be now best to make high Mem/Int alt, use this ~1 month or so to train learnings fast, then when expansion hits, "balance" your attributes to be more suitable for whatever you want to do? For example Gallente / Intaki / Reborn / +3mem +2 int for a base of 14 mem 10 int. Use this "spare" time untill the expansion is released to train int and mem learnings to 5/4 (5/0 or 5/1 for per&wil) and int/mem support skills as high as you can. Then respec to balanced or more heavy to perception, then train the perception focused skills (learnings and spceship / gunnery skills)
Taak Coram Gallente Cursed Souls Vort3x.	Posted - 2009.02.10 22:01:00 - [93] Edited by: Taak Coram on 10/02/2009 22:06:30 Edited by: Taak Coram on 10/02/2009 22:05:43 Admitting right now I haven't read the other posts in this thread. I have to agree with OP, on some points. I realise forcing new players to make decisions right away that affect a lot much later in the game is a little harsh, and attribute respeccing is a good idea, but it can be overdone and in its current iteration on SiSi it does seem to be that way. I could be wrong of course, but I've been led to believe that everyone starting off starts off with the exact same attributes and no starter skill package. I've always liked these starter skill packs. It gives a new player some form of direction. I realise CCP wants to make this the ultimate sandbox game, but that little bit of direction (say, hybrid turrets and drones for gallente soldiers, or the proper mining skills for industrialists) puts new players on the some sort path. Even if new players don't understand what the skills mean, simply reading the description of each job yields at least some basic info. If they don't like it - and this is what I love about EVE - change. Train up other skills. It's what I did. With these changes, that image where it shows the EVE Learning Curve swooping up and over with bodies falling off will actually be more true, due simply to the staggering amount of skills new players will face. I'm usually all for the expansions, and this one is no different. I just think CCP should put a bit more thought into the attribute/no-job/NPE thing. Just a bit. Let's keep this a thinking man's game. EDIT: Edited for clarity and better point-making EDIT2: Added first edit note.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.10 22:16:00 - [94] Originally by: insidion Originally by: Akita T It all starts with a decent enough idea on paper... I admit I'm surprised that you're not for this Akita. Problem is that it just takes too long for the average person to wait for a lot of this stuff. I'm an impatient dude, so I admit I'm leaning towards the idea, but I am equally surprised that CCP didn't just release tier 3 learning skills before going to this length. I know we don't want things to be 'imba', but I personally don't see anything wrong with this system. =I Then again I have yet to actually try it out myself, or do any of the math on it. =) your missing.... everyone seems to be missing the ops point :/ about learning skills.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.10 22:17:00 - [95] Originally by: H Lecter Originally by: MotherMoon I still think they should remove the advanced learning skills and introduce bigger implants, so the more isk you make the faster you train, instead of the longer you have played the faster you increase your skills. You can take away my implants, but you can never take away my advanced learning skills. Therefore - NO U! now there is a crazy idea, take aay implants, add 5 points to everyone?
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.10 22:19:00 - [96] Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 10/02/2009 13:10:06 There was a psychology experiment done a few years ago. One group of people were given ú5 and told to go on their way. Group two were given ú10 but then told to give ú5 back. Both groups went home with ú5, but the first group were happy and the second group were miserable. Giving new players a training speed boost and taking it away is treating them like the second group. which is why you HAVE to train advanced skills at your double the rate, so that once yor done with your 1.6 million sp, you'll keep learning at double the rate FOREVER.
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.02.10 22:26:00 - [97] i personally dont mind, they have the SP but they dont have the experience to apply the skills since the still only have basic knowledge of the game, this is suddendly beccoming a SP is EXP which it isnt , they could fly battleship stright off the bat and i couldnt care becuase as older player we have more support skills, knowledge of how to fly that ship with set ups, i mean they are probably going to have hull reppers on them because they think it might be useful, they have to learn to tank, and flagging mechanics , not to mentioned they are going to get scammed, learn the security system This week EvE Life: Wormhole Wars 01/Feb
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.02.10 23:39:00 - [98] Originally by: MotherMoon which is why you HAVE to train advanced skills at your double the rate, so that once yor done with your 1.6 million sp, you'll keep learning at double the rate FOREVER. Bingo _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
bff Jill	Posted - 2009.02.10 23:42:00 - [99] Does the first time you spec out of 8/8/8/8/7 start the 6 month timer? Or is that your 'spec' and then you can 'respec' afterward? Trying to figure out how to break the system and gain lolSP/S most efficiently.
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.02.10 23:58:00 - [100] i think if you planning on trainin g gunnery skill for a long time then maybe you chain you attrs to what is needed for the long period of time or do what i did when i started put everything into ships sattribs as level 5 is horrible on ships

Dani SP Rupture Farms Mining	Posted - 2009.02.11 00:30:00 - [101] Edited by: Dani SP on 11/02/2009 00:32:41 the crap I created my account on Nov 2008 and still doing learn skills, obviously I do other important skills in the mean. Has been a personal choice, a sacrifice, and no way they will now remove my and others sacrifices. You dont want to spend months training Logic/eidetic to level V??? Ok, keep your lower attributes. I started with 800k. Its OK for me if they increase now to... lets say 1.2millions. More than that, and I will get angry at someone LOL. I mean I currently got 3.4millions, dont want a noob to get more than me. Think of late 2008 registered players, CCP!!!!!!1
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.02.11 00:34:00 - [102] i didnt bother with my learning skills and i am fine , i did up to level 4 later in the game , but i had some fun gun stuff at the beggining, if i did do the learning skill for 2 months at the beggining of the game i probably of quit and you wouldnt have filling the forums with my delicious juice This week EvE Life: Wormhole Wars 01/Feb
Khlitouris RegusII	Posted - 2009.02.11 00:57:00 - [103] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Kendrix Arathan I didn't understand any of that Originally by: Akita T you increase the training speed to double of normal up to twice the former starter SP count, and I think that sentence is eating it's self... In caveman speak: "you start with 60k SP now, hurr, and train twice as fast, growl, but when you get to 1.6 mil SP, you stop training twice as fast, duuh". my character had 45k sp after creation :(
Dani SP Rupture Farms Mining	Posted - 2009.02.11 01:03:00 - [104] Who cares about 40, 60 or even 800k. They are achieved before 1st month. But now the noobs will get a much more bigger advantage. current plans from coughatari*cough pretend to get Eve Online into a massive kids game in which willpower, sacrifice, long-term planning, and others are completely ignored and not rewarded any more. As I stated, learn skills are good as they are now. You want faster training in the long term, train these. You prefer pew pew and bigger ships asap, dont train them but you will be penalized in the future with slower trainings. Now they are removing all this. We are walking to a WOW 2.0...
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.11 01:24:00 - [105] Originally by: Dani SP Who cares about 40, 60 or even 800k. They are achieved before 1st month. But now the noobs will get a much more bigger advantage. current plans from coughatari*cough pretend to get Eve Online into a massive kids game in which willpower, sacrifice, long-term planning, and others are completely ignored and not rewarded any more. As I stated, learn skills are good as they are now. You want faster training in the long term, train these. You prefer pew pew and bigger ships asap, dont train them but you will be penalized in the future with slower trainings. Now they are removing all this. We are walking to a WOW 2.0... no currently nothign is different other than making new players lifes harder.
Ficha Pritty	Posted - 2009.02.11 03:17:00 - [106] Can someone summarize and tell me what this thread is about??
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.02.11 03:25:00 - [107] Originally by: Ficha Pritty Can someone summarize and tell me what this thread is about?? It's in big golden letters at the bottom of the OP. Duuh. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Cor Aidan Imperium Forces Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.02.11 03:25:00 - [108] Originally by: Mal Plox We want 60k SP! if the lowest clone stays at what it is, i can now train cyno alts on every account and not ever worry about them getting podded. I believe this is correct. The proposed changes are a good way to balance out new players while nerfing alts. Fewer starting SP for alts means that people will have to sacrifice training (and isk) from their mains to make same-account alts useful. Weren't people clamoring for an alt nerf? Well, here it is!
Doppleganger Minmatar Libera Mentem Tuam	Posted - 2009.02.11 04:26:00 - [109] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: MotherMoon which is why you HAVE to train advanced skills at your double the rate, so that once yor done with your 1.6 million sp, you'll keep learning at double the rate FOREVER. Bingo So by saying that they HAVE to use that accelerated training on learning skills to teach them that this game is all about sp? Well thats a nice msg to convey to ppl. Heck I ignored most of the learning skills for about 6 months when I 1st started cause I didnt think I was going to play the game for more then a yr tops so I didnt want to waste time on them. Once I decided I was going to play long term then I trained them up. Didn't seem to hurt me any so I doubt it will hurt any new players if they don't jump right on it. Its posts like this that suggest that new players HAVE to train up learning skills 1st is the problem. I didn't even mind the training time of my learning skills cause all skills in this game mean having patentience and the sooner they learn that the better off they will be.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.02.11 06:04:00 - [110] Originally by: Doppleganger So by saying that they HAVE to use that accelerated training on learning skills to teach them that this game is all about sp? Well thats a nice msg to convey to ppl. For combat pilots (the vast majority of EVE players, be it actual PVPers or just "carebear" missionrunners), it's not about SP only after a certain point onwards. That point is when you get mostly L4 and above skills in at least one chosen ship class (including appropriate support skills), with some L5 that are prerequisites. SADLY, that's somewhere half a year to one year down the road, depending on chosen ship class. BEFORE that, IT IS mostly about SP. Sure, if you get some decent friends, you can be a tackler with minimal SP count, but then again, how many tackler does a PvP corp need, and how long do you think new people will stand getting wiped out in almost every sortie because all they do is tackle ? Quote: Its posts like this that suggest that new players HAVE to train up learning skills 1st is the problem. I didn't even mind the training time of my learning skills cause all skills in this game mean having patentience and the sooner they learn that the better off they will be. Hello ? Knock knock ? Anybody there ? Anybody read the OP at all ? Apparently not. Before this particular change, I was saying EXACTLY the same thing to most people. But now, you "have the chance" (read : it's much more important) to get your LEARNING skills down to reasonable levels (at least 4/4, preferably some base to 5) before you reach 1.6 mil SP total, when your training speed gets kicked in the 'nads to half. Sure, you can live without learnings, but the importance of getting them EARLY will have AT LEAST DOUBLED if this change makes it into the game. It was a relatively tough choice before, it will be even worse from now on.

Doppleganger Minmatar Libera Mentem Tuam	Posted - 2009.02.11 06:16:00 - [111] Originally by: Akita T Hello ? Knock knock ? Anybody there ? Anybody read the OP at all ? Apparently not. Before this particular change, I was saying EXACTLY the same thing to most people. But now, you "have the chance" (read : it's much more important) to get your LEARNING skills down to reasonable levels (at least 4/4, preferably some base to 5) before you reach 1.6 mil SP total, when your training speed gets kicked in the 'nads to half. Sure, you can live without learnings, but the importance of getting them EARLY will have AT LEAST DOUBLED if this change makes it into the game. It was a relatively tough choice before, it will be even worse from now on. Yes I did read the op Originally by: Akita T Now, I am forced to admit, in the new system, YOU SHOULD TRAIN MOSTLY LEARNINGS UP TO 1.6 MIL SP, because otherwise you'll be at a severe disadvantage. Severe disadvantage why? Oh that the the game is about sp thing again. Originally by: Akita T * learnings done ASAP is MUCH more important (at least x2 importance) = this sucks /me shakes head
Anneke Goulet CUTLASS CORPORATION	Posted - 2009.02.11 06:40:00 - [112] Originally by: Dani SP I started with 800k. Its OK for me if they increase now to... lets say 1.2millions. More than that, and I will get angry at someone LOL. I mean I currently got 3.4millions, dont want a noob to get more than me. Oh-boy. You werent around but this same moaning was there when they raised starting sp from 200-300k to 800k. Cant remember when it was, year or two ago anyways. And as shown earlier and many times, they wont never "catch up" with you as it cuts down on 1.6mil sp, after which the noob is just normal char with 1.6 mil sp. + Anyone assuming newbs will fly ibis for this whole time it takes to train that 1.6 mil learning with only civ-turrets & boosters is... yeah. Anyone want to make nice and simple copypaste message telling newbs receive 50k sp and train 2x faster until 1.6 mil as currently at least I'm getting bored typing these answers. Bonus for some witty remark about not searching for previous topics etc.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.11 07:30:00 - [113] Originally by: Doppleganger Originally by: Akita T Hello ? Knock knock ? Anybody there ? Anybody read the OP at all ? Apparently not. Before this particular change, I was saying EXACTLY the same thing to most people. But now, you "have the chance" (read : it's much more important) to get your LEARNING skills down to reasonable levels (at least 4/4, preferably some base to 5) before you reach 1.6 mil SP total, when your training speed gets kicked in the 'nads to half. Sure, you can live without learnings, but the importance of getting them EARLY will have AT LEAST DOUBLED if this change makes it into the game. It was a relatively tough choice before, it will be even worse from now on. Yes I did read the op Originally by: Akita T Now, I am forced to admit, in the new system, YOU SHOULD TRAIN MOSTLY LEARNINGS UP TO 1.6 MIL SP, because otherwise you'll be at a severe disadvantage. Severe disadvantage why? Oh that the the game is about sp thing again. Originally by: Akita T * learnings done ASAP is MUCH more important (at least x2 importance) = this sucks /me shakes head ok time for some math! did you know if you want to trian say... rigates 4 and support skills to 4 you can do all that FASTER with learning skils? so in the time it takes to learn 60 skills to 1.6 million sp you could of learning 80 skills including 20 levels of learning skills, AND have all those other skills done, AND do it faster. With this change you can do it EVEN FASTER. so if you don't train say such and such forget your sp count, you just missing out on skills. I wish I had the time to really graph this out, but check eve mon, you can ad in MORE SKILLS TO TRIAN., and lower overall training time. even though you learn more skills you actully train those more skills in less time. it's stupid. in fact... oh **** I have an idea, ccp, make it AUTOMATIC. if you are about to training something that you could lower and skill get learning skills in, pop-up telling the player he is wasting time and could get that skill faster if he trains this 1st.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.02.11 07:35:00 - [114] Not touching this topic 'cause, well, honestly...A: players won't quit because of this and B: if you get killed by a two month old pilot, he/she deserves the win.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.11 07:40:00 - [115] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Not touching this topic 'cause, well, honestly...A: players won't quit because of this and B: if you get killed by a two month old pilot, he/she deserves the win. but jones, the learning skills :( they must remove the advanced learning skills before it's too late!
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.02.11 07:43:00 - [116] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Sheriff Jones Not touching this topic 'cause, well, honestly...A: players won't quit because of this and B: if you get killed by a two month old pilot, he/she deserves the win. but jones, the learning skills :( they must remove the advanced learning skills before it's too late! No plays with his exotic dancer Not touching this one. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2009.02.11 07:45:00 - [117] neural remapping will make learnings less important why skill any higher than 4+4? with imps you can spec an attribute to 30. one more point (in all of them) therefore takes 30x time to pay off. blowing ~20days on the basic lvl V's? only if you're sure you're gonna play, like, two years. what bothers me more: now everybody will (still) pick achura for mem/int and thus faster basic learnings zzz - putting the gist back into logistics
Spaztick Canadian Imperial Armaments Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.02.11 07:45:00 - [118] No, why must you take away Aura? She was my only friend in the beginning. And now newbies will have no one. And after all this time, I finally removed that annoying sentence in my signature.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.02.11 13:03:00 - [119] Edited by: Akita T on 11/02/2009 13:04:20 Originally by: Roemy Schneider neural remapping will make learnings less important why skill any higher than 4+4? with imps you can spec an attribute to 30. one more point (in all of them) therefore takes 30x time to pay off. blowing ~20days on the basic lvl V's? only if you're sure you're gonna play, like, two years. *HOORAY ! ENTER THE AGE OF X-TRE3EM!!11one* CHARACTER FARMING ! You mean, remap freshly created character to 15int/9mem/5/5/5, train cybernetics L1, plug in +3int/+3mem, train basic4/advanced4 int/mem and L4 learning, get cyber L5, plug in +5int/mem implants (hey, you did just sell one PLEX for all the money you could ever need, didn't you?), then do L5 basic int/mem/learning and maybe also L5 advanced int (you'd be just about out of the double-speed by now), or instead you could do all other 3 basic learnings to 5 instead (and again be pretty much almost out of double-speed). I'd say L5 advanced int would be better, for now. Don't even touch advanced per/wil/cha yet... actually, not at all for the first 6 months. Now, if you haven't already, get all other basic learnings to 5 if you want. Hmm, guess how much ALL THAT FIRST 1.6 MIL SP would take to get ? Oh, why, how about A BIT OVER TWO WEEKS ?** Yup, that's right - you can do all of this in the extended trial... but only if you do it like that. You probably could make it in a normal trial, if you exploit the "3 grace days" to the max and activate it on the 17th day only. Then, spend almost 6 more months (well, 5 and a half) getting all engineering/electronics/mechanic skills you might want to have... at a whooping 2739 SP/hour... or 460k SP/week if you prefer. You will have a bit over 23 weeks of training at that speed at your disposal... so, say, 22 weeks of USEFUL eng/elec/mech/sci skills, for a total of a bit over 10 mil SP useful skills, on top of almost 2.5 mil in learning... for over 12.5 mil SP in the first HALF YEAR. I don't know about you, but 10 mil SP in electronics/engineering/mechanic basically covers... eumh... I don't even have that many total SP in those three fields combined. That is, if and only if you exploit at the same time the quick early training, min-maxing of the attributes and the fact +5s are trivially cheap and PLEX so easy to sell. Then, your next step ? Why, OBVIOUSLY, now it's the time to switch to 15per/9wil/5/5/5 and buy those missing +5s !!! About 2 more weeks of training in (and a bit under 1 mil SP in learnings), you get adv cha 3, adv wil 4 and adv per 5... SHIP/WEAPON TRAINING TIME at 2739 SP/hour most of the time, with very few exceptions, so basically another 10 mil SP over there too. After just the full first year, the pilot will be sporting well over 23 mil SP in desirable combat and combat support skills, and be ready for its third "neural reassignment" however the new owner sees fit. 166 USD cost (2xPLEX, one used to activate, one sold for ISK ; and a 1-year sub) and 1 year wait time -> 23++ mil SP combat character. Congrats CCP in creating the perfect character farming churn machine ! _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.11 13:11:00 - [120] Originally by: Dani SP current plans from coughatari*cough pretend to get Eve Online into a massive kids game in which willpower, sacrifice, long-term planning, and others are completely ignored and not rewarded any more. This prompts a question - just how much influence does Atari now have over game design?



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