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Synnyr
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Posted - 2009.03.12 00:28:00 -
[1]
I get that the scanning mechanics had to be simplified so any cretin could find a wormhole. I even understand that I wasted days and days of training time and millions of isk to become a competent explorer. I won't gripe because it's happened before when mechanics change. What I'm going to do with 13 Scan Probe blueprints that can't be sold on the market (can be contracted though) I have no idea.
In any case, as I've mucked around with the scanning mechanic this evening after the saga of patching my opinion is mostly 'meh'. I guess I can live with it and really I know I have no other choice. However, one of the nice things about the old system was the ability to drop a multispectral probe in a system and determine whether there was a site of a particular type I was interested in pursuing.
As it is I can still scan a good chunk of a system but the results come up as 'Cosmic Signature' - meaning it could be Grav, Radar, Unknown, Mag, or Wormhole. So I have to go through the pain of deploying probes and it takes an inordinate amout of time to determine if I even really want to be there.
Any chance we could get a multispectral probe back...you know...maybe as an item you can use after training a bunch of astrometric-type skills that are now basically worthless?
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Kuroda Takumi
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Posted - 2009.03.12 00:32:00 -
[2]
yeah...what he said.
I wasted weeks of training and tons of isk also. We really should get something special for it.
A probe like a multi-spectral would be a good start.
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Cade Morrigan
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.12 00:35:00 -
[3]
+1 Please give us a way to see what types of sites are in a system with minimal effort/time spent. The old multispecs were wonderful. --
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2009.03.12 00:37:00 -
[4]
Agreed, you have successfully homogenized scanning for making EVE "easier" for your new customers.
Stop dumbing down your what was once an EXCELLENT game touted to have a high learning curve. Those of us that beat that learning curve are proud of it, and we don't really enjoy seeing others able to just jump right on the bandwagon.
You have always said that closing the cap between vets and newbies was something you were on the fence about. Let me push you back to the other side. We spent our one resource in this game that we can never get back: Time. Don't be so generous giving it to others.
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Marlenus
Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.03.12 00:42:00 -
[5]
I am amused by the juxtaposition of two contrary complaints in this thread.
If it's harder to find the things you are looking for, how is training "wasted" that makes that process faster?
If your training is "wasted" because probing is easier now, why do you want another kind of probe to make it easier still?
Either gripe, considered alone, might be legitimate; but I don't think they play well together.
Me, I very much like the new system -- I feel like it adequately rewards my skill training, I'm finding the things I'm looking for, and I'm having a lot more fun doing it. The multi-spec was always too "easy mode" for my taste, to be honest -- but given the enormous time sink that went into finding hard signals before, it may have been necessary. Now that the time sink is gone, it only makes sense to remove the easy-mode probe along with it.
------------------ Ironfleet.com |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2009.03.12 00:45:00 -
[6]
"You made the probing system easier. This is bad. BTW, bring back this probe type to make probing easier. Thanks."
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DesuSigs |
Marlenus
Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.03.12 00:46:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Crumplecorn "You made the probing system easier. This is bad. BTW, bring back this probe type to make probing easier. Thanks."
Crumplecorn says in one paragraph what took me five. I always was a wordy barsted. ------------------ Ironfleet.com |
Karlemgne
Tides Of War
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Posted - 2009.03.12 00:46:00 -
[8]
I agree with one thing in this thread only. As someone who has had to learn to scan probe 3 times now, I actually don't mind the new system too much.
What I do mind is spending 15 minutes scanning out a site that end up being a hidden asteroid belt, which I have no use for. So I too would like to not invest my time scanning things I don't want to scan.
So the multispec idea was a good one originally, and is a good one now. Give us something so we can determine if scanning out the sites in a system is worth our time.
Cheers,
-Karl [url=http://killboard.tides-of-war.com/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=39767] [/url] |
Nitakko
Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
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Posted - 2009.03.12 00:47:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Synnyr What I'm going to do with 13 Scan Probe blueprints that can't be sold on the market (can be contracted though) I have no idea.
You're luck you don't have a full set. I have 17 core scanner probe BPOs thanks to the last patch.
CCP, the least you could do is reimburse those who you screwed over. I paid 100m+ isk for my collection, not counting the research time. I'd happily trade over a bunch of my BPOs even if it was for the 4.5m NPC price I paid for them to begin with.
Either that, or give me 23 manufacturing slots so I can put them to use >_>
Also, requesting a Dev response. -------------------------
Originally by: CCP Mitnal So we can 1 v 1 with Garmon. We are not on holiday, we never sleep.
Originally by: CCP Mindstar Hamsters applied. Run, my pretties!
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2009.03.12 00:51:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Marlenus The multi-spec was always too "easy mode" for my taste, to be honest -- but given the enormous time sink that went into finding hard signals before, it may have been necessary. Now that the time sink is gone, it only makes sense to remove the easy-mode probe along with it.
Agreed. A simple yes-no probe would make things too easy. But I would like to see work on determining what things are before scanning them all the way down. As it is now, you scan something down, find it is not what you are looking for, pull out, that one signal then turns into several red dots again, leaving you wondering exactly how many different sites you have scanned, have yet to scan, and no closer to figuring out if what you want is even in the system.
Also, deviation. -
DesuSigs |
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CHAOS100
Widowmakers
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Posted - 2009.03.12 01:05:00 -
[11]
Damn someone else got to the summary before me.
Basically your complaining that it is too dumbed down now. But its also too hard and you want it to be easier. --------------
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Cypherous
Minmatar Liberty Rogues CORPVS DELICTI
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Posted - 2009.03.12 01:07:00 -
[12]
I don't mind not knowing what the site is before getting to it, it stops people buzzing through system after system trying to find the good stuff it leaves more for everyone else :) --------- Liberty Rogues Site[/center]
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Marlenus
Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.03.12 01:11:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Crumplecorn But I would like to see work on determining what things are before scanning them all the way down. As it is now, you scan something down, find it is not what you are looking for, pull out, that one signal then turns into several red dots again, leaving you wondering exactly how many different sites you have scanned, have yet to scan, and no closer to figuring out if what you want is even in the system.
I think a way of identifying signals -- either with a user-determined ID or by storing them in the archive that got cut from the first SISI version of this scanning system -- would be sufficient here. I do agree that some sort of modest help in sorting through a signal-rich environment would be a good idea, and I'm pretty sure we'll see some -- eventually. ------------------ Ironfleet.com |
Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2009.03.12 01:11:00 -
[14]
Originally by: CHAOS100 Damn someone else got to the summary before me.
Basically your complaining that it is too dumbed down now. But its also too hard and you want it to be easier.
No, we are complaining because something that was difficult that we spent time training for has now become easy. It's like saying:
CCP: Man, look at all those people that trained Battleship to 5. That's a Rank 8 skill. Look at all these new players we have. Let's make Battleship a Rank 6 skill.
They basically just did that with probes.
Look at it this way:
We took time to train for something to be good at it. We trained up all sorts of skills to use a variety of probes EFFECTIVELY and then you wiped the multispectral probes from the market.
Multispecs did not make scanning EASIER, they made it convenient so we could optimize our time and not spend hours scanning out crap that we didn't want. I am not trained to do Magnetometrics, for example. If I found one with a multispec I moved to the next system. Now we don't have that luxury, and it upsets us.
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Marlenus
Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.03.12 01:13:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Cypherous I don't mind not knowing what the site is before getting to it, it stops people buzzing through system after system trying to find the good stuff it leaves more for everyone else :)
Precisely. I don't have any sort of problem with a system that rewards patience and effort. ------------------ Ironfleet.com |
Synnyr
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Posted - 2009.03.12 01:26:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Marlenus
Originally by: Cypherous I don't mind not knowing what the site is before getting to it, it stops people buzzing through system after system trying to find the good stuff it leaves more for everyone else :)
Precisely. I don't have any sort of problem with a system that rewards patience and effort.
I'm guessing you've never spent 2 or 3 hours scanning down a .03 site before. You certainly didn't spend weeks of training time and millions of isk - you know the whole 'patience and effort' part of the old scanning system.
I understand the criticism of saying it's easier and harder at the same time. Perhaps I should say that it's an easier system but there is more wasted time involved. If CCP is going to make us all scan down every single site in a system in order to find out if it's one we want, then the rewards should be increased for finding them. Personally I don't see what the problem would be allowing the use of Multispectral probes as a reward for training functionally useless skills.
However, I knew in posting this that there would be a number of people who would post disagreement simply because they have nothing better to do. I think most people who were explorers before the patch would agree. Commenting if you're not an explorer would be like me commenting on a change in mining rules.
As far as 'buzzing through system after system trying to find the good stuff' it doesn't mean there's more for everyone. And by 'good stuff' it would depend on what you're looking for wouldn't it?
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Marlenus
Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.03.12 01:33:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Synnyr I'm guessing you've never spent 2 or 3 hours scanning down a .03 site before. You certainly didn't spend weeks of training time and millions of isk - you know the whole 'patience and effort' part of the old scanning system.
You're guessing wrong. Trained for it, did it, spent the ISK, spent the time, spent hours waiting for probe results that didn't tell me anything because of the random element, hated every long wasted hour of it all. But mostly, hated the randomness of it. This new system rewards that training every bit as much, while keeping me actively engaged and getting me to the goal sooner.
I have NO idea what "functionally useless" skills you are complaining about -- the balance has shifted a bit, but all my probing skills are still contributing nicely to my probing experience and to my probing successes. ------------------ Ironfleet.com |
Ironnight
Caldari x13 X13 Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.12 01:45:00 -
[18]
Stop drinking bongwater, the old system was a PoS, drop probe, cross fingers, endless wait for the scan to finish, then either warp to another spot to drop another probe, wait for another endless scan to complete or just hit the scan button again and wait.
I have not had much chance to use it to scan down ships, but I imagine that it will be pretty hard to scan down people that are warping from safespot to safespot, but for exploration its much easier and faster, only problem is that you can tell what signals you have to work with, but still I find that I spend less time scanning before I find what I am looking for.
They're like 'oh **** son, its a trap *Doomsday* |
Cade Morrigan
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.12 04:08:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Marlenus
Originally by: Cypherous I don't mind not knowing what the site is before getting to it, it stops people buzzing through system after system trying to find the good stuff it leaves more for everyone else :)
Precisely. I enjoy wasting time scanning down sites that I wasn't looking for.
Fixed that for you.
I like the new scan probe system, but I would at least like to know if there is a site of a particular flavor in the system. I don't really see a benefit to removing that feature; i suppose the added time sink is always an objective with this sort of decision? |
Apollo Gabriel
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Posted - 2009.03.12 04:18:00 -
[20]
scanned both ways.
I didn't notice that I lost skills, so I doubt you did either.
Not being chance based makes it nice and dependable, aka no more 8 hours in that 0.3
Also, um are you mad you can't cherry pick any more? tough man, this game is called Eve, not WoW... you may have to think now, sorry.
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Immersive
Immersive Technology Solutions
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Posted - 2009.03.12 05:14:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Synnyr Any chance we could get a multispectral probe back...you know...maybe as an item you can use after training a bunch of astrometric-type skills that are now basically worthless?
You mean, like the Deep Space Probe? --- New to the API? GrabRaw XML
It's coming...
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Daan Sai
Polytrope
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Posted - 2009.03.12 05:31:00 -
[22]
The skills are not wasted! They give actual 10% increments for time, strenght and accuracy. Try probing out a weak signature with just astrometrics 1 in a cruiser.... Won't even detect it probably. The skilled probers are still much better off.
I popped off one probe and found about 30 signatures in the first W-system I am exploring, who needs a multispec then ?
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AK Shaman
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Posted - 2009.03.12 05:54:00 -
[23]
+1 pls back multispectral
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Bazman
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2009.03.12 06:55:00 -
[24]
I don't see if it has been mentioned yet, but when you get an approx. 40% to 50% strenght on a hit it will identify what it is in your scanner, such as grav site, ladar, radar or mag. It doesn't even take that long to narrow it down so it's not like it's much of a problem.
Personally speaking, acutally being actively engaged in the scanning process instead of waiting up to 2 minutes between scans is much better. My previous experience of exploration involved hitting the scan button while watching whatever crap was on TV at the time. After an hour or two i might hit something :P -----
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CHAOS100
Widowmakers
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Posted - 2009.03.12 15:17:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Originally by: CHAOS100 Damn someone else got to the summary before me.
Basically your complaining that it is too dumbed down now. But its also too hard and you want it to be easier.
No, we are complaining because something that was difficult that we spent time training for has now become easy. It's like saying:
CCP: Man, look at all those people that trained Battleship to 5. That's a Rank 8 skill. Look at all these new players we have. Let's make Battleship a Rank 6 skill.
They basically just did that with probes.
Look at it this way:
We took time to train for something to be good at it. We trained up all sorts of skills to use a variety of probes EFFECTIVELY and then you wiped the multispectral probes from the market.
Multispecs did not make scanning EASIER, they made it convenient so we could optimize our time and not spend hours scanning out crap that we didn't want. I am not trained to do Magnetometrics, for example. If I found one with a multispec I moved to the next system. Now we don't have that luxury, and it upsets us.
With maxed skills it should be a lot easier for you to find out what kind of plexes they are rather than me with lvl 2 skills. Use deep space probes. As someone else said, before you had to wait a set amount of time probing where you sat around to find out what was in the system, now you have to move the probes around yourself. With your skills it should take the same amount of time. --------------
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2009.03.12 15:26:00 -
[26]
-1
8AU deeps are quite revealing sometimes as it is - putting the gist back into logistics |
knifee
Caldari Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2009.03.12 15:31:00 -
[27]
You only have to get it to 25% scan strengh to be told what it is though?
That takes a cpl of scans most of the time.
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Aeo IV
Amarr Xomic OmniCorporation
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Posted - 2009.03.12 15:32:00 -
[28]
Oh stop whining and just sell your damn bpos.
The Core probe BPO is worth around 4 or 5 million on the market right now, a researched bpo should go for at least that much, surely more. You can earn back a signification amount of isk you've spent on probing, by selling those probe bpos.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.12 15:34:00 -
[29]
Scanning was never hard, in any way, and if you think you where special for being able to scan: lol.
Now you actually need to work a bit, not just press a button and wait :P
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Ruze
Amarr No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2009.03.12 15:43:00 -
[30]
Finding something with the old scanner? That was difficult.
The last change in probes, though, wasn't difficult. Time consuming? Yes. But the real issue was that it made no ****ing sense. You had to accept incredible leaps in logic to understand that system. Disagree? Listen to someone explain it. Drop one probe, find everything you're looking for. Oh, you can't get there, but what you can do is warp near that probe, drop one of 20 different probe types that vary in what they search and the range, and get a step closer. Repeat. Oh, and if ever you don't get a signal, rescan a bazillion times becausetherestillmightbeasignalbutthecomputerdoesntknowitsorescanagain ...
Biggest complaints I've seen about the new system?
- I don't like change. (this is the most honest, and I respect these guys, cause I can understand that).
- I can recover my probes now?!?
- How do I warp to my probe? What do you mean I don't have to warp to it again and again?
- Why can't I tell what's in system with just one probe? (combining this with a 'the new system is too easy' argument is classic)
- You mean I have to keep moving the probes?
- I used to be able to do other stuff while I probed. This sucks! (seriously, exploration channel, last night, this was a true complaint)
The new system makes sense. It's logical, it's understandable, and it fits with current science. Secondly, it's interactive ... no afking this system. Third, there's no 'i-win' with the multispectral probe.
The only true complaint I've seen is the difficulty in scanning down player ships. That seems perfectly legit (beyond the 'I hate change' crowd, cause who of us loves to have what we do changed completely? I don't).
Before Wormholes
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