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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.08.09 18:05:00 -
[1]
For immediate release
ELECTUS MATARI OPERATIONS IN THE AMMATAR MANDATE
Kulheim, Pator, Minmatar Republic -- 111.08.09. -- The rumors that Electus Matari alliance has launched an offensive operation against another capsuleer organization in Ammatar Mandate space are confirmed by alliance commanders. On 111.08.04 a CONCORD-sanctioned war was filed against a criminal alliance. A tower was attacked in Bimener, Derelik, on 111.08.06, put into reinforced state, and destroyed two days later. Friendly forces suffered minimal losses.
The pilots of this criminal organization have entered the Minmatar Republic to engage in unprovoked war declarations against Electus Matari and allies. While their war against Electus Matari itself was pulled back less than 24 hours after filing, apparently in order to attack another, weaker, peaceful target instead, the commanders of EM felt that sending the signal that criminal elements can freely pick and choose their targets would not best serve the safety of our spaceways.
Electus Matari understands the concern raised by the necessity to bring a heavy combat force into foreign space. We wish to make it known that this was done only in order to secure the Republic side of the border, and the only targets were the criminals. We have at this time no intention to become a regular hostile presence in Ammatar space and hope that local patrolling forces will in the future be enough to control criminal elements in Derelik.
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Electus Matari is a capsuleer alliance loyal to the Minmatar Republic operating in tribal space and the relevant war zones. Electus Matari's operations include, but are not limited to, local assistance to law enforcement, industrial support of the Tribal Liberation Force, and humanitarian aid to refugees from the Amarr Empire.
For further information, contact: Arkady Sadik, fleet commander Arthur Black, alliance diplomat Elsebeth Rhiannon, alliance diplomat Evanda Char, alliance high commander -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today. |
Ugleb
Minmatar Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.08.09 22:09:00 -
[2]
While I can only commend taking a strong stance against such opportunists, I do wonder why you feel a need to apologise for entering Amarrian controlled space.
They have never batted an eye lid at trespassing into Tribal territories. Often they take some of the locals back with them while they're at it!
The Journal; Walking The Road To Liberation |
Myyona
Minmatar Ataraxia Pharmacies
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Posted - 2009.08.09 23:08:00 -
[3]
I did notice your fleet pass though Audesder towards Kenobanala and while it did not appear immediately hostile there were some pilots who seemed to have interest in our operations in the area.
I applause EM for taking steep action against pirate elements even across borders. People who profit on others misery are not really people after all and I am sure even the Amarr will appreciate a little less vermin in their home. I am also really pleased to hear that EM aims to keep neutrals out of the conflict and I prey that they may manage to fulfill this aim and not claim any civilian casualties in their efforts.
--- Nobody can do everything, but everybody can do nothing |
Tomahawk Bliss
Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.10 00:13:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Evanda Char "Electus Matari, World Police"
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Esna Pitoojee
Amarr TalCorp Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.08.10 00:38:00 -
[5]
I support Electus Matari's decision to pursue their enemies across borders.
I mean, it's standard military tactics, isn't it?
Anyhow, I am sorry to say that despite your actions clearly being legitimate - you were attacked first, you simply responded in kind - by waving your actions here you will simply be opening yourself up for hordes of rabid factionalists to come screaming "The Minmatar have violated Mandate borders! Oh, the horror!" or some such foolishness. ----------------------------------------------
Say "Amarr ships suk, lol." I dare you.
My statments do not represent the opinions, views, or actions of my corp. |
KillJoy Tseng
Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.08.10 05:25:00 -
[6]
Edited by: KillJoy Tseng on 10/08/2009 05:25:20 I must comment Mr. Pitoojee, that I would be very surprised if some of the people who you refer to as factionalists weren't already aware. While I disagree with their policies and beliefs and various other things, it would be unwise of me to not acknowledge that their numbers contain many very competent people.
So we state why we were there, up front, in public. Simple.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.08.10 06:56:00 -
[7]
Ugleb, we are not apologizing. What we did was necessary, and we will do it again if necessary. What we are doing is responding to the screams Pilot Pitojee mentioned.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today. |
Alica Wildfire
Minmatar Federal Investigations Agency
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Posted - 2009.08.10 08:59:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Alica Wildfire on 10/08/2009 09:00:21
The politics of the FIA is to investigate illegal drug production and slave pits that violate CONCORD laws in Minmatar space and outside and poses misuse of the exterritorial status of Capsuleer corporations. For this we too had to leave Minmatar space, were entering deep into Amarr and Ammatar territory and had to make razzias on facilities that were suspected to this crimes and secure the evidence.
If Electus Matari should need help in analyse substances or criminal evidence as well as specialized hazmat spacesuits or specialists, I am authorized to offer the help of the FIA if this should be needed. As my position of humbly beeing just "the friendly girl at the counter" the last word may have our CEO, but it is fully unter my responsibility to direct minor assets of the FIA as long as it serves the intrests of Minmatar, Gallente or other civilians. Destructive crimes like the unscrupulous exploitation of our youth by drugs, especially the large covered Amarr vitoc production poses a dangerous thread to our society and tries to stealthy undermine the process of freedom and independence from Amarr suppression.
Please contact me if you need a cargohold of our mobile labratory environment and scientists to power them. I'll direct you the assets as soon as possible if you'll need them for your ongoing investigation. -- FREEDOM, PUNK & AUTOCANNONS
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Poreuomai
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.08.10 11:49:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon the commanders of EM felt that sending the signal that criminal elements can freely pick and choose their targets would not best serve the safety of our spaceways
I wish you continued success in defending weaker peaceful people from criminal ammatar elements.
Let My People Go |
Amaethon
Caldari Cloned from the Gibbet Aggressive Therapy
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Posted - 2009.08.10 15:23:00 -
[10]
As diplomat for Aggressive Therapy I can confirm that Electus Matari did invade Ammatar space and attack our industrial POS, whilst cowardly avoiding all our military POSs in Ammatar space. The criminal organisation Electus Matari attempts to dictate their misguided and anti progress policies towards those who seek to embrace change and a bright future in Ammatar. Electus Matari have the numbers, the ships and their puppets to support them as they tread over those who seek freedom and prosperety in Ammatar space. We refused to kneel before their threats and aggresion and will continue to fight for our rights as Ammatar residents. All those that support Electus Matari's unjust and draconian ambitions and their aggresive policies towards those who do not embrace Minmitar ideals, are valid targets.
Amaethon
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.08.10 15:33:00 -
[11]
This is hardly a surprising development, given EM's history of invading Amarrian space to attack those with whom they disagree.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Havohej
Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics
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Posted - 2009.08.10 16:11:00 -
[12]
PIE Inc. would never do that. I'm not sure what your point is, Blake.
"You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
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Alica Wildfire
Minmatar Federal Investigations Agency
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Posted - 2009.08.10 16:23:00 -
[13]
There is a big difference between the Amarr way and the Minmatar way. The one is following the path of a leader. Which has chosen subleaders and subleaders and on the button of all is the footsoldier. It is the way of autocracy. Every leader has authority from the leader above him and the last calls it from god.
The Minmatar are stronger than that. Because every man is standing as an equal. We are standing side by side, shoulder at shoulder. The large one aside the small one, the strong one aside the weak. We are together. Not as one. We are together as many.
And what is bringing us all together against the Amarr and against the Ammatar is their aggression against us. You attack one of us you attack all of us. Just because your drugs are maiming the weaker of us the rest will not stand still. Just because you enslave one of us the rest will not keep still, "god thank it's not me!"
What you do to one of us you do to all of us. And there is no leader above us. No god that is uniting us. Not a party, not a tribe. We are Minmatar, we are a whole culture, we are a society, we are brothers and sisters.
Your crimes against us will not be unnoticed. They will find an echo. And this echo does not stop in front of borders. Not in front of sovereignities, not in front of an army that is called by your leaders to stop us. It will be heared on the last of the systems, to the last planets and every deep forgotten deadspace that are known to humankind.
If you want to stop us, you have to stop all of us. For now you have not a rebellion anymore. You have a revolution. Justice. And forever.
Step aside, Amarr or be washed to the Sea of the Forgotten. -- FREEDOM, PUNK & AUTOCANNONS
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Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.08.10 17:02:00 -
[14]
I fully support action taken against criminals elements. I fully support retributive actions taken against those who launch unprovoked wars.
As long as Electus Matari vessels acted in accordance with Ammatar laws when in the Mandate, and in accordance with Concord rules in general, I'm perfectly satisfied with the explanation.
If Electus Matari applies Republic Law to those outside the Republic and brands people criminals who have not committed any crime, and takes it upon themselves to enforce Republic laws outside the Republic, then I'm very concerned. ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Amaethon
Caldari Cloned from the Gibbet Aggressive Therapy
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Posted - 2009.08.10 17:33:00 -
[15]
I challenge Electus Matari to present any evidence of of illegal actions commited by AT. We have indeed declared war against alliances that operate in Minmitar space, but perfectly within concord laws. If we are guilty of any criminal acts its against those laws laid down by Electus matari. Laws that I do not recognise or wish to be bullied into recognising.
I accept that we do have pilots that were once criminals, however they have turned their backs on Piracy and are making every effort to lead lawful lives within Ammatar and Concord laws.
Electus matari can use spin to make out that they are the victims but in truth they are the aggrssors. They invaded Ammatar the moment they erected their tower in Bimener, disguising this invasion as an operation to deal with criminals is a charade.
Amaethon
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Tomahawk Bliss
Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.10 21:53:00 -
[16]
At first glance such allegations that Electus Matari are engaged in unprovoked aggression against law abiding pilots seems unlikely.
In Electus Matari favor you have their long history of not engaging in any aggressive warfare except actions against pirates in low security space.
In Electus Matari favor you have their professed dedication to scientific and industrial pursuits.
In Electus Matari favor you have no notable instances of public hypocrisy or lies.
In Electus Matari favor you have local (admittedly allied) organizations supporting their maneuvers.
In Electus Matari favor is the fact that Aggressive TherapyĘs admission of pirate with in their ranks, let alone the very title of their alliance.
In Electus Matari favor is Aggressive TherapyĘs rebuttal that their wars are ōconcord legalö where in that has never been a bar to piracy and thuggery as many organizations can attest.
On the other hand none of this unconditionally proves that Electus Matari isnĘt prosecuting a war of aggression for gain and/or entertainment.
Amaethon isnĘt alone either in claiming the Electus Matari are criminals who hide behind a veneer if lawful behavior.
None of this proves Electus Matari or Aggressive Therapy in the right, and I would caution against acceptance of either side with out first exploring the situation. However as every IGS opinionater here can attest that Electus MatariĘs reputation for honesty in its public declarations has been more or less reliable.
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Arkady Sadik
Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.08.11 01:00:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Amaethon If we are guilty of any criminal acts its against those laws laid down by Electus matari. Laws that I do not recognise or wish to be bullied into recognising.
On 111.07.29, one of our standard patrols reported a gate camp of your pilots in Eifer, Heimatar, at the Gusandall gate. As we did not see you actually engage anyone, we contacted you to investigate intents and RoE to decide on a standing for you. That mail was sent on 111.07.31 at 03:51. At 20:20 of that day, you declared war on Electus Matari. We do consider unprovoked war declarations to be a crime.
In the ensuing mail exchange between yourself, Amaethon, and our diplomat Arthur Black, you wrote the following to answer the inquiry on why you had retracted the war again a bit over a day later:
Originally by: Amaethon I will explain it in simple steps for you. [...] 3. We are criminals so honour is not a virtue we are known for [...]
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Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.08.11 03:14:00 -
[18]
It sounds to me as though EM decisively finished a war that was started against them. The additional necessity to file paperwork to extend the war doesn't bother me.
I salute your victory, brothers and sisters of EM!
-- Becq Starforged
The Flame of Freedom Burns On! |
Anabella Rella
Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.08.11 06:01:00 -
[19]
Quite simply AT behaved like naughty children who thought it would be amusing to pull the tail of a large sleeping dog who appeared to be on a chain. To their surprise, the dog was not chained and responded by not only biting them, but by pursuing them back to their home and cornering them.
That's the story, plain and simple.
Maybe AT should take the advice of the hero in one of my favorite holoreels from when I was growing up. After he dealt out his justice (in the form of a righteous beating) to the villan he just smiled and said, "Hey, don't start nothin', won't be nothin'." |
Poreuomai
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.08.13 12:20:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Amaethon I challenge Electus Matari to present any evidence of of illegal actions commited by AT.
If you are saying that declaring war on another corp for no specific reason is not a crime, are you not also saying that EM's actions where completely consistent with your own ethics?
Let My People Go |
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.08.13 12:25:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Amaethon I challenge Electus Matari to present any evidence of of illegal actions commited by AT.
Good luck with that.
Nearly three years ago EM attacked Imperial Human Resources vessels inside Amarrian space using the old "they were acting illegally" excuse.
We're still waiting for the evidence.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.13 13:56:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss However as every IGS opinionater here can attest that Electus MatariĘs reputation for honesty in its public declarations has been more or less reliable.
Perhaps. Not so reliable has been their judgement as to what constitutes criminality. Their leadership considered the hero Muritor to be nothing more than a common criminal at the time he justifiably rebelled against the stupidities of Midular's regime. They were in no wise troubled by the state assassination of Muritor. Indeed, some of them celebrated it. Even now, despite all the Defiants did to support the evacuation of slaves from the Empire, their leadership still seems to consider him no more than a criminal adventurer rather than the noble freedom fighter he was.
I may say that I find it a little troubling that some members of the Ushra'Khan appear to forget this.
All that to one side, I think the game has been given away here by the remarkable assertion that a CONCORD-sanctioned war declaration is an 'illegal' act if Electus Matari decide it is 'unprovoked'. That is a logic capable of use by anyone who wishes to do so. I personally think it is a rather unsteady footing from which to adopt a moral stance and Electus Matari would be better served by simply declaring that they crushed an enemy without attempting to dress it up as law enforcement.
I also notice that Electus Matari do not regard the content of diplomatic exchanges as confidential. That is something I will remember.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Communications Portal |
Arkady Sadik
Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.08.13 15:37:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 13/08/2009 15:46:29
Originally by: The Cosmopolite Their leadership considered the hero Muritor to be nothing more than a common criminal at the time he justifiably rebelled against the stupidities of Midular's regime.
He defected from a military position and stole Republic assets. That does make him a criminal regardless of whether you think his other actions were justifieable. While the other actions of his were debateable, I have stated before that if he had just resigned from his position and left on good terms, he would not have been a criminal at all.
If you wish to discuss this further, please do open a new thread and do not derail a diplomatic statement.
Quote: All that to one side, I think the game has been given away here by the remarkable assertion that a CONCORD-sanctioned war declaration is an 'illegal' act if Electus Matari decide it is 'unprovoked'.
We have a clearly defined list of what we consider to be "crimes":
http://www.electusmatari.com/standings/crimes/
Your concern about the terminology is noted.
Quote: I also notice that Electus Matari do not regard the content of diplomatic exchanges as confidential. That is something I will remember.
If you contradict your private message in public, and then ask us in public to provide evidence that you are wrong, I will cite your private message in public. If you do not wish this to happen, please do not contradict yourself in public and ask for evidence of being wrong.
Yes, please do remember this.
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The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.13 16:11:00 -
[24]
I derail nothing, the case of Muritor is relevant to the moral judgement of your organisation when it comes to alleged 'criminality'. It certainly highlights the way in which your organisation elevates abstract law above justice. Criminal by the lights of Midular's Republic he may have been. Was he morally a criminal? I say not. However, I am happy to leave it to one side given you have provided a link to a most interesting document...
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
We have a clearly defined list of what we consider to be "crimes":
http://www.electusmatari.com/standings/crimes/
...that I think speaks volumes in its own right as to the statist and enclosurist tendencies of your organisation. Its content doesn't particularly surprise me but one always likes to see these kinds of positions set out clearly. It is certainly food for thought.
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Originally by: The Cosmopolite I also notice that Electus Matari do not regard the content of diplomatic exchanges as confidential. That is something I will remember.
If you contradict your private message in public, and then ask us in public to provide evidence that you are wrong, I will cite your private message in public. If you do not wish this to happen, please do not contradict yourself in public and ask for evidence of being wrong.
Yes, please do remember this.
As I said, I do intend to remember that your organisation will break diplomatic covenant when it suits it. It is something I hadn't thought was the case but at least it has been revealed here. I also note that you were asked to provide evidence of criminal activity and the excerpt from a redacted diplomatic exchange constitutes no such thing.
As I say, the issue shouldn't be one of 'crime' at all. On your account, they took hostile action against you. Fine, respond and crush them, as you say you have done. I simply see no point to this flim-flam about them being a 'criminal organization' unless it is an attempt, bizarrely, to claim the moral highground that you already occupied if your account that they attacked first is accurate. I certainly think it added nothing to the case for you crossing into Ammatar territory. Your organisation is a sovereign capsuleer entity and I do agree with Ugleb's point that no justification for operations in the pale of Derelik is required.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Communications Portal |
Casiella Truza
Ecliptic Rift
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Posted - 2009.08.13 16:36:00 -
[25]
So, eh, why wouldn't EM undertake regular military action in the Mandate? Afraid of provoking more reactions from the Amarr capsuleers? That wouldn't make sense, given the existing state of capsuleer war.
Elsie, you might say it wasn't an apology, but it damn sure smells like one. -- EVE Blog EVE Twitter |
Tomahawk Bliss
Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.13 17:14:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Arkady Sadik I will cite your private message in public.
Yes, please do remember this.
I did not know of this incident.
This is perhaps the greatest violation of diplomacy possible, that you donĘt seem to understand this surprises me.
I will note that Arkady Sadik isnĘt to be trusted with sensitive interaction when he can use it to argue points on IGS, because after all IGS is so very important its worth violating the covenant of diplomacyą
What does the rest of Electus MatariĘs diplomatic team think when it comes to use private diplomatic communications to prosecute forum wars? Perhaps you donĘt care? After all it only removes trust and opportunity for backroom dealings. In all honestly maybe Electus Matari doesnĘt find that respect in diplomacy is an important factor.
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Sky Grunthor
Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment
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Posted - 2009.08.13 17:25:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Sky Grunthor on 13/08/2009 17:30:41 Edited by: Sky Grunthor on 13/08/2009 17:29:50
Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss
Originally by: Arkady Sadik I will cite your private message in public.
Yes, please do remember this.
I did not know of this incident.
This is perhaps the greatest violation of diplomacy possible, that you donĘt seem to understand this surprises me.
I will note that Arkady Sadik isnĘt to be trusted with sensitive interaction when he can use it to argue points on IGS, because after all IGS is so very important its worth violating the covenant of diplomacyą
What does the rest of Electus MatariĘs diplomatic team think when it comes to use private diplomatic communications to prosecute forum wars? Perhaps you donĘt care? After all it only removes trust and opportunity for backroom dealings. In all honestly maybe Electus Matari doesnĘt find that respect in diplomacy is an important factor.
I'm not understanding the umbrage your taking here. If you make a remark or agreement or whatever in private, diplomatic or not, then self-refute that same remark/agreement in public, what right do you have to keep the original remark private? You have broken your own word, as it where, so your holding them (EM or Arkady) to task seems quite... ignoble.
Maybe I'm just not understanding this dispute... I am viewing from the sidelines.
edit: On further consideration, I would think that certain agreements and circumstances would make the conflicting messages necessary, however I don't think diplomatic conversations can necessarily fall under those circumstances. Inherent diplomatic secrecy is not a safe gaurd against being revealed as two-faced.
Of course, I must admit again, I am only viewing this from the sideline so the truth of the matter to me is up in the air. Its a he said/she said argument at this point. ------------------------------------------------- Search: Sky Grunthor |
Arkady Sadik
Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.08.13 17:42:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 13/08/2009 17:46:36 I do not give out confidental information given in private. This includes procedures, operations, opinions, etc.
I do hold you to your word if you contradict in public your own answer to our initial contact attempt and ask me to provide evidence. If you tell me in private that you are a criminal, and I call you a criminal, and you state in public that this is wrong and that I should provide evidence, I will cite you in public.
Trying to imply that the latter is equivalent to the former is not doing anyone any favor.
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Mizhara Del'thul
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Posted - 2009.08.13 17:47:00 -
[29]
Diplomacy is sacrosanct. Circumstances are irrelevant. No trust can be put into any diplomatic contact with someone who breaks this sanctity.
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Sky Grunthor
Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment
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Posted - 2009.08.13 17:56:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Mizhara Del'thul Diplomacy is sacrosanct. Circumstances are irrelevant. No trust can be put into any diplomatic contact with someone who breaks this sanctity.
Who broke sanctity? Arkady by revealing something said in private or SF by doing something they said they wouldn't do in private? (again based on what I've read)
in either case, what does it matter. Diplomacy is not sacrosanct, it is a tool, nothing more nothing less. There are guidelines and confidences that should be kept and adhered to but when the self interest of the organization is in the balance, diplomatic sanctity be damned. THAT is the reality. Your a fool if you think diplomatic conversation has no limit on staying secret or confidential.
Do you think this view makes me un-trustworthy or un-honorable? On the contrary, It makes me very trustworthy because I go in with eyes open and will only agree to what I will hold to. I have the knowledge that if I agree or make a statement in private, it CAN become public should my public actions and words not be in accordance. I have a vested self interest in being true to my word while in private where YOU do not. ------------------------------------------------- Search: Sky Grunthor |
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