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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 23 post(s) |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.21 11:08:00 -
[1]
Originally by: CCP Abathur Motherships --> Supercarriers
After careful consideration and further balancing, we will be reintroducing Supercarriers for Dominion 1.1. This will include:
ò Fighter Bombers ò Hit Point boost ò Jump Range increase ò Removal of Triage usage ò Removal of Jump Clone usage
A special comment on the Hel û we realize that among these ships, the HelÆs bonus to repair might be seen as a bit æmehÆ. The other school of thought is that considering how useful remote repair is, especially when it comes to carrier combat, perhaps the HelÆs bonus is not so bad. So, what would you like to see here? Would an additional boost to the current RR bonus be welcomed? Ponies?
Hmmm, this feels like a job only half done to me, especially concidering the Hel bonus. U pulled back in this topic before dominion in order to find a more defined role for this ships, a role that didn't blend this behemots among the carriers and dreads. What I see is the exact opposite of that statement and nothing new at all - in fact it's the other way around and less of an inovative idea that fails with giving this ships a special role.
Instead of removing the logistics bonus and giving it a battle-focused job U keep this crap to insure that U fail in your above mentioned intention. And to let Hel keep that bonus instead of giving it the very thought through bonus with Fighter Bomber torpedos explosion speed is very very lame. That is the bonus this ships need to not be mixed up with regular carriers.
Also as Bobby Atlas said - the Fighter Bombers vulnerability versus Stelth Bombers Bombs must be looked into - there are rather many Stealth Bomb Squads today and it's not very good if they can launch a handful of bombs for no isk worth at all and kill Fighter Bombers at about a Billion per SC's pilot who got ther FB's there.
I think the role of this ships should be remade to a more complete sense so that it get's a more clear role as something new. My earlier suggestion, that is a work made from others suggestions in large, is that it's made to a Flagship with fighting and leadership boost capabilities and no logistics role. Read the suggestion here:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1217073&page=61#1820 _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.12.22 02:12:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Teck7
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Fighter Bomber survivability
This is a tricky one because Fighter Bombers are already hovering around 20k raw hit points plus resists. That's more EHP than, for example, T2 fit Thorax. In that respect they are already fairly tough. They are also set to orbit at 7.5k which puts them outside of all but the most powerful smart bomb range. The design team is of the opinion that this issue is less about the Fighter Bombers and more about the Stealth Bombers / Smartbombs. No nerfs imminent, just letting you all know that we're looking at this problem from a larger perspective.
The point in case is not that fighter bombers can orbit outside the range of all but officer smarties, that really is only a point of contention when your talking about ganking one or a couple of carriers/supercaps.... Putting a mother ship into an actual capital fleet engagement was the point made, that fighters/fighter bombers sent to attack primary targets or any targets within the hostile capital blob will die almost immediately to the massive area of coverage of the capital groups smart bombs. Example would be 50 enemy caps, 20 carriers, the carriers are always going to be very spread amongst the blob creating a very large area of effect washed with smartbomb damage that waxes anything that comes into it. Its not unlike the crappy tactic of using a smartbombing carrier blob to take out clustered group of modules on a pos, hitting up to 15-20 modules at a time or more (just using this as an example of the power of smartbombs in capital groups).
I'm thinking out loud now.
But can't this be solved if the Fighter Bombers get's a change into a giant Sentry Drone (but WITH a return to ship engine, perhaps even a follow command).
Then the Super Carrier pilots at least just have to be aware of Stealth Bombers trying to make popcorn out of their one billion iskies swarm. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.12.22 21:11:00 -
[3]
Make the Fighter Bombers to XL Sentry Drones instead and with torpedoes that reach decent ranges.
Just also make sure they are given some kind of thruster, so they can "Return to Dronebay" and perhaps even "Follow ship" so U can move on the grid and have them with you. But "Return to Ship" option is the only really important one - other options is maybe nice also, but not needed.
I think it would look awesome also besides that it solves the problem with Fighter Bombers being unusable against enemy capital blobs du to the fact Bobby Atlas pointed out. But imagine the beauty when a Supercarrier lauches their swarm of FB's and start to fire torpedos from all around itself. Yummy mummy ^^ _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.12.23 03:33:00 -
[4]
Originally by: SolarKnight
Originally by: ByFstugan Make the Fighter Bombers to XL Sentry Drones instead and with torpedoes that reach decent ranges.
Just also make sure they are given some kind of thruster, so they can "Return to Dronebay" and perhaps even "Follow ship" so U can move on the grid and have them with you. But "Return to Ship" option is the only really important one - other options is maybe nice also, but not needed.
I think it would look awesome also besides that it solves the problem with Fighter Bombers being unusable against enemy capital blobs du to the fact Bobby Atlas pointed out. But imagine the beauty when a Supercarrier lauches their swarm of FB's and start to fire torpedos from all around itself. Yummy mummy ^^
No thanks, leave POS sieges to the dreads please.
First of all - there is no way that Supercarriers would ever compete with Dreads when it comes to POS-warfare. Very few in percentage can ever afford such ship.
Second of all - the proposal isn't about POS-warfare, but instead about making Supercarriers possible to use in large capital fights where there's alot of regular carriers with smartbombs.
And Third - if it would be concidered unwanted from CCP that they could engage POS's it's easily solved in same manner as for Titans - that they simply can't shoot them. Eventhough I don't think they should be stopped from that. It's quite a risk to put SC's outside a hostile POS in todays EVE - even with the EHP-buff they are not untackable or unkillable. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.12.23 03:52:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Misanth The FB issues presented (dying to smartbombs, bombs) is same issues regular Fighters have. If anything should/would be changed about that, then the same should be done to fighters.. in my eyes.
FB's are exclusive capital killers, Fighters for medium size, regular drones vs smaller. Smartbombs/bombs killing either is fine, that's a viable counter.
What is a bigger issue is the supposed self-defence we have when using Fighters. "Smartbomb? Recall!" "Bomb? Recall!". That'd be fine, if recalling Fighters/FB actually worked. If we assume a non-laggy environment, they're slow as ****, but in laggy environment I've had situations where it takes over half an hour to recall one wave of Fighters, and at the end of the day only two comes back while the other eighteen are stuck in warp somewhere in limbo. And let's not even get started about trying to rep them..
I'd like to see this issue addressed separately, then Fighters would be fine as well. One example of a fix to this would be to possible give the Fighters/FB a 'nitro'-like boost when recalling, temporary speed increase for ten seconds, or similar.
FB's are fine in their design, it's just Fighters/FB as a whole that is underwhelmingly poor vs what you get out of them. In many cases it's better using disposable flights of sentries.
- FB's are only for capitals and most carriers has at least one smartbomb and all capitals can withstand smartbombs for a very very long time. Hence it's "suicide" to send FB's to enemy capital-blob, but almost no risk for enemy to stop them. So the new role for the capital-killer Supercarrier will not be possible in large scale nullsec fighting, but only in mostly impossible to find 1v1 supercarrier vs some other capital.
- Fighters are mostly effective versus Battleships, even if they can be used towards both smaller and largers targets the DPS either has hard to hit (smaller) or doesn't do much very damage in targets total hitpoints (caps). BS's doesn't mostly have smartboms. And even if they did they can't withstand 5-10 smartbombs all over for to long. Hence there are less risk using the Fighters and if U send them into an hostile capital blob U'r not really doing what they was meant to do.
- And once again what I think they should change to; if they become an XL Sentry Drone that fires torpedos it's not very strange that they can fly decent distances - and it would look awesome :p _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.12.23 04:50:00 -
[6]
Originally by: ByFstugan
Originally by: CCP Abathur Motherships --> Supercarriers
After careful consideration and further balancing, we will be reintroducing Supercarriers for Dominion 1.1. This will include:
ò Fighter Bombers ò Hit Point boost ò Jump Range increase ò Removal of Triage usage ò Removal of Jump Clone usage
A special comment on the Hel û we realize that among these ships, the HelÆs bonus to repair might be seen as a bit æmehÆ. The other school of thought is that considering how useful remote repair is, especially when it comes to carrier combat, perhaps the HelÆs bonus is not so bad. So, what would you like to see here? Would an additional boost to the current RR bonus be welcomed? Ponies?
Hmmm, this feels like a job only half done to me, especially concidering the Hel bonus. U pulled back in this topic before dominion in order to find a more defined role for this ships, a role that didn't blend this behemots among the carriers and dreads. What I see is the exact opposite of that statement and nothing new at all - in fact it's the other way around and less of an inovative idea that fails with giving this ships a special role.
Instead of removing the logistics bonus and giving it a battle-focused job U keep this crap to insure that U fail in your above mentioned intention. And to let Hel keep that bonus instead of giving it the very thought through bonus with Fighter Bomber torpedos explosion radius is very very lame. That is the bonus this ships need to not be mixed up with regular carriers.
I think the role of this ships should be remade to a more complete sense so that it get's a more clear role as something new. My earlier suggestion, that is a work made from others suggestions in large, is that it's made to a Flagship with fighting and leadership boost capabilities and no logistics role. Read the suggestion here:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1217073&page=61#1820 (there is a short version in PART III for the lazy)
EDIT: Also - to remove the triage use possibility and at the same time keep their logistics bonus, how well thought though is that? Especially concidering the Hel that even get an extra bonus to that crap and still will be far worse than even a level 1 Nidhoggur in triage. Not even if the Hel had 25% per level to Shield/Armor boost it would be close. And as a final note again - the logistics bonuses should be removed from this ships and another one added (Leadership focus imo).
This still. Make MS's to Flagships for the Battlefield - like a Capital Command Ship. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.12.23 12:55:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Misanth
Originally by: ByFstugan 1) - FB's are only for capitals and most carriers has at least one smartbomb and all capitals can withstand smartbombs for a very very long time. Hence it's "suicide" to send FB's to enemy capital-blob, but almost no risk for enemy to stop them. So the new role for the capital-killer Supercarrier will not be possible in large scale nullsec fighting, but only in mostly impossible to find 1v1 supercarrier vs some other capital.
2) - Fighters are mostly effective versus Battleships, even if they can be used towards both smaller and largers targets the DPS either has hard to hit (smaller) or doesn't do much very damage in targets total hitpoints (caps). BS's doesn't mostly have smartboms. And even if they did they can't withstand 5-10 smartbombs all over for to long. Hence there are less risk using the Fighters and if U send them into an hostile capital blob U'r not really doing what they was meant to do.
3) - And once again what I think they should change to; if they become an XL Sentry Drone that fires torpedos it's not very strange that they can fly decent distances - and it would look awesome :p
1) Similar to how things are today. That's one major reason I barely used Fighters in capital ops. I've sent mine to Dreads, but if carriers has been on the field I used sentries. That's not gonna change with FB's around (if anything it might get worse). The problem is not the smartbombs (or bombs) in itself, it's how slow they are by default - and directly unresponsible in lag situations. I.e. CCP are adding a Fighter 2.0-concept, a concept that has a design flaw by default.
There's no problem as per se in FB's itself, it's a problem with the Fighter family.
2) Yes, I already said that.
3) That would be 'cool', and it would solve their vulnerability vs smartbombs/bombs, and it would also solve the recall issues in laggy situations. But it goes against what CCP posted as a 'strength' with motherships (and carriers). They've been talking about how one of the defensive mechanisms carriers/motherships have is the mobility on the field (unlike sieged/triaged ships), so giving moms a "sentryfighter" would mean that suddenly we're immobile?
I'm not sure that's what devs want. I could personally buy that concept, but I'd also want a fix to Fighters as they work today (they're too unresponsible, too slow).. and a fix to that would be a fix to FB's be default.
1) Yes, but the big difference is that Carriers main role isn't a fighter on the Battlefield, but instead to be a Logistics support vessel. Hence it's ability to kill caps to the enemy isn't a priotity, it's to keep the friendlys alive. I'm also a Carrier pilot, but I think them having Fighters as they are today is enough, we need to remember their main role and that the Fighters is merely a bonus/option.
2) Nothing to say here ^^
3) In my earlier proposal - http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1236843&page=11#306 - I propose the solution to the mobility issue. This XL sentrys would have a "Return to Ship" engine (which regular ones could need also - even if it would be slow) and perhaps even a "Follow ship" command. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.12.23 14:19:00 -
[8]
Edited by: ByFstugan on 23/12/2009 14:19:41 When it comes to the Slaves vs Crystal on Capitals I really don't think that the solution lies in making Crystals work for them.
Since Titans and MS's [will] have a massive EHP this days the active tank is of no use - so there need to either be a counterpart for the slaves that make a Shield HP-buff or the Slaves need to stop work for the armortankers. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.12.24 00:08:00 -
[9]
Originally by: SolarKnight
Originally by: ByFstugan
Originally by: SolarKnight
Originally by: ByFstugan Make the Fighter Bombers to XL Sentry Drones instead and with torpedoes that reach decent ranges.
Just also make sure they are given some kind of thruster, so they can "Return to Dronebay" and perhaps even "Follow ship" so U can move on the grid and have them with you. But "Return to Ship" option is the only really important one - other options is maybe nice also, but not needed.
I think it would look awesome also besides that it solves the problem with Fighter Bombers being unusable against enemy capital blobs du to the fact Bobby Atlas pointed out. But imagine the beauty when a Supercarrier lauches their swarm of FB's and start to fire torpedos from all around itself. Yummy mummy ^^
No thanks, leave POS sieges to the dreads please.
First of all - there is no way that Supercarriers would ever compete with Dreads when it comes to POS-warfare. Very few in percentage can ever afford such ship.
Second of all - the proposal isn't about POS-warfare, but instead about making Supercarriers possible to use in large capital fights where there's alot of regular carriers with smartbombs.
And Third - if it would be concidered unwanted from CCP that they could engage POS's it's easily solved in same manner as for Titans - that they simply can't shoot them. Eventhough I don't think they should be stopped from that. It's quite a risk to put SC's outside a hostile POS in todays EVE - even with the EHP-buff they are not untackable or unkillable.
(1) They are already making bombers orbit at like 7.5km+ so they are well out of the way of most smartbombs anyway. (You don't want to be fitting majorly expensive faction mods in huge laggy fights unless you really are rich).
(2) Also, The HP Buff already makes them viable on large scale fights, much more viable then before at least. Especially since with the EHP they have, Reps are futile to fit so they will be very well resist and buffer tanked.
(3) That change will make it much more effective to RR the supercarriers, a cap heavy alliance is not going to struggle to keep these ships alive.
(4) Also, making the drones into sentries is going to make them a lot easier to kill, since they will be stationary during firing.
1) The thing U say about the orbit range only shows U haven't read what either Bobby Atlas or me talked about properly. The problem is the capital-BLOBS with carriers all over where the FB's can't be sent in to orbit on Capitals smartbombrange without being killed by the 20-50 other carriers smartbombs all around it.
2) The EHP large enough to put SC's on the field is of small comfort for they who wanna use them for the good of the fleet also if it's useless to send it into the hostile capital-blob when the FB's get basicaly instapoped in there (at least popped faster than U can recall them).
3) Still good if they are usable - without triage they don't do any wonders as logistics.
4) Read my proposal properly - I've in each comment made very clear that they should be possible to move without having to get back to their sentrys. I proposed at first an "Return to ship" thruster and perhaps also an "follow ship" one - and on the end I added a suggestion that the XL Sentry FB's should always orbit ship and even fire it torpedos orbiting. That way U can always move wherever U want on the field and the FB's will follow. U do however need to be careful to the Stealth Bomber fleets and their bombs - but that's ok - some counter should exist. And this one the way with the magnitude it's starting to be used is always nearby for any SC with hostiles in system. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.12.24 03:09:00 -
[10]
CCP plz also comment on the Flagship solution that has been mentioned both here and in earlier threads. So far I've seen no Dev acknowledged they have read it even, and it's been mentioned and liked by a bunch of ppl.
The proposal is mentioned here and in three posts total, the last one being a tl;dr for the lazy. Perhaps that's good to read first and then read the thoughts and motivations to all things in the two first posts: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1217073&page=61#1820
I know U already said no to the active tank bonus, but ignore that then and focus on the other ideas. And please discuss and comment. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
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ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.12.25 19:01:00 -
[11]
I don't really see the large point in why they shouln't be docked - the only reason I agree is rational is the limiting factor - but I think the price handles that pretty much so the not docking is not needed.
About docking-games one could instead of saying it wouldn't work imagine ways to solve that. - Loooong aggrotimers for larger ships (if there's 1 hour aggression I doubt many would play docking-games). - You only could dock once a day. - One could make the ships unable to aggress on X km from or within dockinggrid. Same solution as to smartbombs in empire. - Or limited docking to Player owned structures, with perhaps one of the above also. - Or limited docking to specially upgraded stations that was suggested by CCP earlier, with perhaps one of the above also.
Seems that most that have problem with this ships docking doesn't see there might be solutions to the problem it could cause. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.12.26 16:45:00 -
[12]
Edited by: ByFstugan on 26/12/2009 16:47:32
Originally by: Nemtar Nataal on the subject of the Hel, i personally think it have the most awesome bonus of all of the MS's - the RR bonus makes it a real fleet ship where as all the other MS's are more minded on personal defence. Imo the other MS's shoud have there bonuses changed to reflect a fleet combat role rather then a personal defensive role like the Aeon and Wyvern have today.
Excuse me, but did U miss something? 1) The MS's is going to be transformed to ships for capital fights, an offensive role 2) They will loose their ability to fit Triage, hence loose defensive specialization 3) 25% as a maximum HP-transfer boost is not really as much as the smaller brother the Nidhoggur get with it's 25% + double effect in boost and half cycle time (400% effect) 4) Noone will use the Hel as a Logistics ship, and even if they do it will add MUCH less than a carrier in traige.
I would personally if I had a Hel (I'm concidering getting one if it wont suck to much compared to the other SC's) in a heartbeat trade the logistics bonus for only half of the bonus the Wyvern got. But that's not what I think it should have.
The Hel should get a bonus to Fighter Bombers torpedos explosion radius per level - hence hitting smaller/moving objects a little better. All other suggestions I've heard is pretty much what CCP said we might think of the present logistics bonus, and that's "MEH!"
EDIT: And yes, besides that the Fighter Bombers should be made as a XL Sentry drone in order to avoid them being useless in large fleetfights. Just make sure they don't make the SC's unmobilized by give this Sentry FB's a thruster so they either: 1) Always orbit the SC, and also fire orbiting (imagine the awesome graphical effect) 2) Or give it a "Return to ship" engine, and perhaps also an "Follow" command option. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.12.27 20:40:00 -
[13]
A Summary of the change to Motherships I and more with me like to see.
1) Make the Motherships to Flagships instead of Supercarriers. - That means make them a ship for the battlefield with the role to be a Leadership booster as well as a Capital Killer with the new Fighter Bombers. - Introduce some kind of Capital Warfare Link and increased bonus to Link bonuses (Like 5% per level instead of 3% as Command Ship has) - This also means that you remove the triage ability, logistics bonuses and the Clone Vat Bay so that logistics is the special role for the smaller regular carriers.
Suggestion in detail here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1217073&page=61#1820 (with a tl;dr version for the lazy in part III)
2) Make the Hel racial bonus to be Fighter Bombers torpedos explosion radius. Since the logistics role is to be abandoned with the removal of triage possibility. It's pure stupid to keep the old bonus to this ships and U had the best option I've heard in the end at SiSi before U turned U'r back to this ships before Dominion.
3) Make the Fighter Bombers to an XL Sentry Drone - This is to avoid them being useless in large fleetbattles, where this ships should be most usefull. - They to need a thruster so they doesn't immobilize the "Flagship" and this should be solved by either: a) making them always orbit, and fire torpedos orbiting b) give them "return to ship" engine, and perhaps a "follow" command
4) Increase Jump Range as planned - Either to 4.5 ly so JDC5 Flagships can tag along with JDC4 Dreads - Or to same as Dreads since Carriers after all jumps longer in base - The choice should be made after how much larger U concider this ships to be, since larger ships should jump shorter. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.12.27 21:11:00 -
[14]
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Originally by: ByFstugan 1) Make the Motherships to Flagships instead of Supercarriers.
'Flagships' sounds like an entirely new class of ship, not something we're going to modify from an existing class.
Not really. MS's as well as carriers already have bonuses for Warfare Links. This is just an extra boost to that.
The label Flagship was just a suggestion to add attention to that boost in the same old role. The name is mainly suggested since many of us don't really think supercarrier is a very cool name ;p
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Originally by: ByFstugan 3) Make the Fighter Bombers to an XL Sentry Drone
While deployable turrets is an interesting idea, we're not going to change something that looks like a Fighter Bomber into a "Sentry Drone".
It's not turrets though. The FB's is still supposed to be firing torpedos on all races, but they will remain at the MS/SC side and fire long-range torpedos instead.
The look doesn't need to change since the suggestion only changed them from orbiting the MS/SC instead of the target, and firing their torpedos from long range instead of short.
This is a suggestion lifted since Bobby Atlas earlier in this thread pointed out that SC's will be not work in large fleetbattles with the FB's as they are - since thet will die horribly fast on enemy carrier-blob with all smartbombs. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.12.27 23:27:00 -
[15]
Originally by: LoveKebab Edited by: LoveKebab on 27/12/2009 22:16:21
Originally by: NedFromAssembly You obviously didn't use fighterbombers on Sisi at all. There are several ways you can get around even groups of ships with smartbombs with ease.
true some1 with at least half a brain can keep his fighters safe than why shouldnt he be able to keep his fighter bombers from harms way ? :) i remember on sisi i havent lost a single fighter bomber whatsoever when i was using my nyx and i think they are well balanced when it comes to orbit range
And this U ofcourse tested with 100-150 capitals and about almost half was Carriers with smartbombs running? On SiSi? Incredible.
If not U'r words are out of context since that would be the obvious counter when Fighter Bombers are among our blobs of capitals. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.12.28 04:36:00 -
[16]
Again...
Make the Hel racial bonus to be Fighter Bombers torpedos explosion radius. Since the logistics role is to be abandoned with the removal of triage possibility. It's pure stupid to keep the old bonus to this ships and U had the best option I've heard in the end at SiSi before U turned U'r back to this ships before Dominion.
This way they hit moving targets better than others and gets it's bonus where it should be instead of where it most definetly not in any possible way should even be remotely concidered to be put, i.e it's old bonus blows monkey butt after removing triage. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.12.28 10:59:00 -
[17]
Originally by: ByFstugan
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Originally by: ByFstugan 3) Make the Fighter Bombers to an XL Sentry Drone
While deployable turrets is an interesting idea, we're not going to change something that looks like a Fighter Bomber into a "Sentry Drone".
It's not turrets though. The FB's is still supposed to be firing torpedos on all races, but they will remain at the MS/SC side and fire long-range torpedos instead.
The look doesn't need to change since the suggestion only changed them from orbiting the MS/SC instead of the target, and firing their torpedos from long range instead of short.
This is a suggestion lifted since Bobby Atlas earlier in this thread pointed out that SC's will be not work in large fleetbattles with the FB's as they are - since thet will die horribly fast on enemy carrier-blob with all smartbombs.
I really can't let this go to easy, since it seems as my suggestion was misunderstood in about them having to be standing still as regular Sentry Drones. Perhaps the name is badly choosen, let's forget the mentioning of "Sentry" and imagine a new way they would function instead.
Imagine a couple of Supercarriers exit their warp, soon after they landed they all launch their angry swarm of Fighter Bombers - targets are locked - soon after 20 orbiting FB's around each of the supercarriers start to launch long range torpedos towards their target.
Now that gotta be an graphical joy with all affects on. It also makes this ship get a special appearance on the battlefield when they got their special swarm around them as they attack and even when they move. Perhaps would be extra cool if they orbited in a circle formation when they are shooting (so the SC can't be hit) ^^
This would make the Fighter Bombers work in large fleetbattles (150-200 capitals) where the amount of smartbombs are somewhere between high to really high in the blobs of capitals that kinda always is gathered in one spot. The only one the Supercarriers could really attack are those that got bumped away or are in the outer parts of the blob.
It would however not make Fighter Bombers close to unkillable. Besides all supportship that could pop them we have the real nemesis in the now so popular Stealth Bomber bombing squads, and U don't need to miss them entering grid with many seconds to loose a bunch or maybe all of your Fighter Bombers. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.12.29 00:41:00 -
[18]
Edited by: ByFstugan on 29/12/2009 00:44:39
Originally by: Kraken Kill POST 503
Originally by: NedFromAssembly POST 504
Since U (Mainly Kraken) mentioned my suggestion about a flagship and most likelly know I don't fly a MS yet I feel like I'd like to respond here. Especially since U (and others) seems to wanna make a point into that only those who owns them got right to have any opinions on them - and the solution should be to not buy what we don't want.
I can myself buy about three fitted motherships if I wanted, and I would have got at least one long time ago if I thought it was worth it. But since they where not I've put my isk elsewhere for now. When there now comes a long overdue change to this ships that I will get one or perhaps two of - I feel like I also like to have suggestions here. I'm sorry if that upset some people that already own a MS. But I also wanna own a large e-peen that I like - so I do have an opinion.
I'd like to point out that eventhough U fly a MS yourself U seem to have a bad understanding of the numbers here, hence we can conclude that flying a MS doesn't make U an expert on them. Suprise suprise since U seemed to think that only owning them gives right to think and know stuffz about them.
The MS's cost today (in ME1, not including packing/refining-costs or logistics) is about 8,8-10,1 Billions to build in minerals, and costs roughly 15B on "market" today (that number is the only one correct). After the removal of Clone Vat Bay that prices will reduce with about 1,2B each and end in a mineralcost of 7,6-8,9B. What the price's will be after Dominion 1.1 and the EHP-buff we don't know, but from what I heard some MS's went for 21B when that word got out of the EHP-buff - and I predict that your suggestion of 12B will be FAR from the price most people will pay for this ships for a long long time. More likelly the price will raise to 16-19B for a while, and maybe stabilize around 14B later on. We'll se post-Dominion 1.1 about that.
If U don't wanna fly something labeled "Flagship" that's totally ok, but perhaps U should read and understand the suggestion before U think it's something U don't wanna fly. In short that suggestion is very similar to the Supercarriers we see on the board - with the difference it would loose all logistics bonuses and get extra leadership bonuses instead. It's nothing less eatyourface at all - perhaps the other way around since U can get more gang-bonuses with them in gang (more EHP can't make them weaker I'd guess?). The suggestion wasn't mostly about the name, but to a new role as a Capital Command ship with sharp teeths.
I agree with you that the Drone Control Units are terrible, they should give 2 extra drones per level on SC's imo. Also the Hel bonus as U say need change, I've stated my suggestion earlier so I skip that now. But I'd like to point out to CCP that it will be really unfair to the Hel pilots to not change that bonus together with the removal of the Triage module that was the only thing that could spice it up.
Perhaps critique and ideas can come without telling people to shut up or calling them names - wouldn't that be an intresting experiment :) _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.12.29 01:37:00 -
[19]
Edited by: ByFstugan on 29/12/2009 01:38:56
Originally by: Wikipedia A flagship is the lead ship in a fleet of vessels, a designation given on account of being either the largest, fastest, newest, most heavily armed or, for publicity purposes, the best known. In military terms, it is a ship used by the commanding officer of a group of naval ships. The term originates from the custom of the commanding officer (usually, but not always, a flag officer) to fly a distinguishing flag.
Used in this way, "flagship" is fundamentally a temporary designation; the flagship is wherever the admiral's flag is being flown. However, admirals have always needed additional facilities; a meeting room large enough to hold all the captains of the fleet, and a place for the admiral's staff to make plans and draw up orders.
To me when using the term Flagship (as someone else came up with before me) I didn't really think that had to be the largest ship - as several here seems to do. So I looked it up and quoted it above here from wikipedia - and it seems that's not the only possible choice. It seems that a flagship can be many things besides largest: - Fastest - Newest - Most heavy armored - Or simply best known
Usally this ships carried a flag, which in war has been a morale-booster - and the ship also contained the commander of the fleet. And that's pretty much the most precise definition - it held the "Fleet Commander" in EVE-terminology. I really can't see why a Capital Command Ship couldn't have that label just because there are Titans that are larger. Unless the above statement is wrong and the correct is "there is only one flagship and it's the biggest ship there is" or something.
U got me to think that the name-suggestion was stupid - however it's not it seems. I mean - even the mentioned Darth Vaders Flagship is much smaller than their "Titan", the Death Star.
However - the name was not the important issue erlier - but to make the Supercarriers get some extra Leadership-related bonus(es) and remove all logistics-crap.
EDIT: To read about the suggestion: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1217073&page=61#1820 (there's a tl;dr version at PART III) _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.12.29 03:50:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Natasha Nikolaev
Originally by: ByFstugan
I agree with you that the Drone Control Units are terrible, they should give 2 extra drones per level on SC's imo. Also the Hel bonus as U say need change, I've stated my suggestion earlier so I skip that now. But I'd like to point out to CCP that it will be really unfair to the Hel pilots to not change that bonus together with the removal of the Triage module that was the only thing that could spice it up.
I agree they are terrible, I disagree with how this should be solved. 2 extra drones per level could cause issues with carrier dps and also causes issues with fighter bombers and drone bay sizes. The only (good) way to make DCUs useful is drop the whole increasing # of drones controlled and simply go with increased damage and HP. This will scale properly between carriers and motherships (thus not causing issues with gank thanatos dps), won't increase lag and will make fighters/FBs more survivable all in one shot.
Works as good in my book ^^ _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
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ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.12.29 04:26:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Seth Ruin
Originally by: ByFstugan If U don't wanna fly something labeled "Flagship" that's totally ok, but perhaps U should read and understand the suggestion before U think it's something U don't wanna fly. In short that suggestion is very similar to the Supercarriers we see on the board - with the difference it would loose all logistics bonuses and get extra leadership bonuses instead. It's nothing less eatyourface at all - perhaps the other way around since U can get more gang-bonuses with them in gang (more EHP can't make them weaker I'd guess?). The suggestion wasn't mostly about the name, but to a new role as a Capital Command ship with sharp teeths.
Personally, I believe a capital command ship would be awesome, especially one that gives slightly better bonuses than a current command ship. But, carriers already have their role. They are, primarily, Fighter platforms. They're the only ships that can utilize these unique drones, which can add significant DPS without needing the carrier even to be on grid.
Originally by: SolarKnight Titans are already essentially flagships in theory, since they have the ability to fit the gang mods, have the fleet bonus per level and are the biggest and generally most heavily armed ships in the fleet.
While i do agree that a capital command ship would be awesome, i think a little more thought needs to go into the idea, we already have several ships that can fit the warfare link modules, so maybe we need to come up with a few different warfare link designs to introduce more flavour to the role before we worry about more leadership platforms?
A big capital command ship would be cool, but one with a unique function and role would be even better right?
I have a bunch of suggestions that I either took from others posting about this before me, or some I added myself. I dunno how many that has accually read my suggestion on the link, but I cut out the part essential to this discussion - how would the bonuses look if the Supercarriers was made a Capital Command Ship?
Suggestions so fars:
The Gang bonuses could be applied in different or several ways of below mentioned:
- Same as in Command Ships, but higher boost (probably 5%) per level on the active modules.
- An new Capital Boost modul that give all bonuses as the regular gang bonuses does in it's type (armor, shield, skirmish, EW). For example the Capital Armor module would give both armor resist, capacitor reduction to armor repair/transfers and also increase the speed of this repairs/transfers.
- An new Capital Boost modul with some new gangbonus given from this capital gangbonus module. Dunno what really :)
- An similar (or same) bonus as Titans got that's passive and don't require modules.
- An bonus that increases the effectivnes of active bonuses depending on position in fleet. For example normal bonus as squad commander, stronger as wing commander and max as fleet commander.
Feel free to add suggestion to what could make a suitable bonus for a Capital Command Ship.
To read about the Flagship suggestion in whole: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1217073&page=61#1820 (there's a tl;dr version at PART III) _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.01.01 20:06:00 -
[22]
I still feel what's on the table about SuperCarriers is a rather lame work since the withdraw pre-dominion. The reason for leaving the changes of this ships was that they got no real role and they blured in to much with the Dreads/Carriers. After this U now came back with a change that furfills that failure even more, especially since the Hel got stuck with it's old bonuses. So I wonder:
1) What's the Supercarriers new role that make it stick out from Dreads/Carriers? - I mean the one you found during the silence? Or do you not care about that anymore?
2) Why do you keep the logistics bonus and at the same time remove the triage? - It feels to me as U don't know what to do with the ship. As if U both wanna remain it logistics oriented and at the same time not.
3) Will you change the Hel bonus? - It's rather silly to keep old bonus when you remove the triage, you got to see that? - What about the Fighter Bomber explosion radius that was the last I know of on SiSi pre-Dominion?
4) What's your view on Fighter Bomber survival-ability in massive capital fights as we see in nullsec today? - Will Fighter bombers get some resistans to bombs (smarties as well as stealth bombers bombs)? - Or U got some other solution to this or U not see this as a possible problem for SC-pilots? - Myself would prefere if FB's always orbited the SC's and fired long range torpedos orbiting, would that be impossible - and if so why? It still wouldn't be hard to kill them all with Stealth Bombers bombs. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.01.01 22:10:00 -
[23]
Originally by: RoCkEt X tbh, theres a counter to everything. and smartbombs are the counter to drones.
As for lag, if its laggy, everyone else is F**ked too, whether they're using drones, fighters, guns, missiles or thier nipples for dps, they're still gonna have lag problems.
You're essentially asking for them to remove a perfectly reasonable counter, thus making FB's overpowered. The current patch notes are perfectly fine, however the size of SC dronebay needs increasing.
The issue isn't to remove a counter - but to make the new firepower with a cost at about 400M ISK (AFTER price settles) that's only usable in a ship that costs about 15B to be useful in large fleetbattles as anything else than just an e-peen on the grid. I think it's hard to make FB's overpowered by just making them useful even in capitalblobs. There should be large supportfleets in such occasions with guns that fast could take the FB's out if that's the goal. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.01.01 22:21:00 -
[24]
Originally by: NedFromAssembly Since you people seem too dumb to figure this out all on your own I am going to offer you a hand here. Compact citadel torps on sisi last time they were seen had a range of about 68km. Fighter bombers themselves started firing these torps the moment you told them to attack *regardless of their current range* and spammed them until they were recalled eventually reaching orbit.
Now you tell me, if there are massive smartbombers and you have a weapon that reaches 68km and fires once every 15 seconds ***why are you letting your bombers into smartbomb range***
Oh god you have to micromanage your ****, its terrible. Almost like you have to actually play the game.
Shut up about smartbombs, it isn't a problem unless you're dumber than nails. Which most of you seem to be unfortunately.
Well, since you are dumb as a rock I'm gonna need to point out that what you say still doesn't solve the issue about this ships being useless for most of the fights (that was pointed out in my edit above) - since they gotta go back and not fire a great deal of the time and also need to be micromanaged like the whole time in a lag that's probably terrible and it will probably be close to impossible to keep track on where all your FB's are.
If you think that's an solution I see that about being dumb it for sure seems rock > nails. Go figure. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.01.01 22:57:00 -
[25]
Originally by: NedFromAssembly Edited by: NedFromAssembly on 01/01/2010 22:29:03 So you seriously can't press a button twice in 15 seconds? Because if you can kazam they are firing for max dps.
Oh my bad I just saw your alliance ticker, that answers a lot ^_^
If your argument is BUT THESE DONT WORK IN HEAVY LAG. Then dont even bother responding. Damn near nothing works for decent dps in heavy lag.
I see that you still ask yourself what my argument is, and that you still fail to understand both what I said and why your "solution" isn't a solution. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.01.04 13:47:00 -
[26]
Edited by: ByFstugan on 04/01/2010 13:52:46 About the idea to give Hel bonus to Fighterbomber - hence not give Nyx that same bonus, but instead keep it to regular fighters.
I heard people object to this with base for reason that Gallente always been the BEST Drone-mastering race. However - they are by far the WORST missile-oriented race, and the bonus suggested is to torpedo oriented Fighters - and after Caldari it's Minmatar that handles missiles best. Hence I don't think the suggested idea above is bad, more like the other way around.
Gallente is the overall best civ for capitals, and it's not a coincidence that 4 out of 5 (or something) Motherships is Gallente. It both got a very adaptive carrier and a very good dread, unlike all other races. It got the best bonus to their titans in game after Dominion and the HP-buffs (since most Titans/MS/Dreads/Carriers are armortanked). Minmatar got by far the weakest MS/SC of all, and has no real thing to it's favor unless you count awesome look. It would be just fair to give the Minmatar Engineers the bright idea of making their missile-launching fighters better than even the great Gallente version.
However - this isn't my first choice - that still remain bonus to Fighter Bomber explosion radius (so it hit moving/smaller targets better). Besides that I think each race could get a racial bonus to their fighters/FB's on their Supercarriers, perhaps to their drones also. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.01.04 14:52:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Lee Kin Maybe make the Gallente and Amarr FB's use direct fire turret weapons and have the Caldari and Minmitar use missile based weapons, if you want to inject racial traits. That introduces instant damage though and so favors the previous 2. Maybe best to leave it as is.
I'm not sure if you're thinking out loud or if you imagine you gave an objection that made what I said irrellevant - but if it's the later what you say isn't really that relevant. I think we can be certain that the fighterbombers all will use torpedos, and that's set in stone. However the Hel bonus should really not be set in wet mud even since it sucks so insanely hard. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.01.04 15:34:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Lee Kin
Originally by: ByFstugan
Originally by: Lee Kin Maybe make the Gallente and Amarr FB's use direct fire turret weapons and have the Caldari and Minmitar use missile based weapons, if you want to inject racial traits. That introduces instant damage though and so favors the previous 2. Maybe best to leave it as is.
I'm not sure if you're thinking out loud or if you imagine you gave an objection that made what I said irrellevant - but if it's the later what you say isn't really that relevant. I think we can be certain that the fighterbombers all will use torpedos, and that's set in stone. However the Hel bonus should really not be set in wet mud even since it sucks so insanely hard.
I was just pointing out that since the fb's weapon systems are set in stone, shouldn't the ms's bonuses also be? The hel needs a boost, but not necessarily in the fashion of granting it the main bonus of another race, as in the dps of the gallente race. The minmatar race is sort of a hybrid race with bonuses. Would it not be more fitting to reflect that in giving them half the bonus for dps and half the bonus for shield resists to keep a distinction? Also, since they are(pardon the name)super carriers, give them all the ability to carry full sets of fighters and bombers, with room for spares.No race would build one and skimp on the drone bay ffs. Just saying.
The MS's bonuses are obviously not set in stone when it comes to the Hel since pre-Dominion they were (rightfully) changing that. Now they are back with a so far halfarsed suggestion that totally ignores that they remove triage and introduce FB's when they suggest to let Hel keep it's old bonus. An logistics bonus without triage on a supercarrier will need 3-4 Hel's to compete with a Nidhoggur in Triage - that's plain stupid. That's also the reason so many suggest that bonus to change - including youself in last post though you started to say it should be set in stone.
About Dronebay size I agree. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.01.05 01:35:00 -
[29]
About Hel bonus again, a summary from what I've seen and recall atm.
Pre-Dominion 1.0 - CCP decides to change Hel bonus due to MS change to SC and this ships getting new bonus.
SUGGESTION 1: More HP or Resist (don't recall) to FB's
SUGGESTION 2 (was on SiSi later): FB's explosion Radius bonus
After this CCP withdraws with motivation that they don't like what's on the table and that SC's don't get a clear enough role but instead blur in to much between Dreads and Carriers.
Dominion 1.0 is launched.
CCP comes back after some weeks of silence about the SC's and has rolled back changes so much that Hel even got to keep it's old bonus. CCP themself commented this as the playerbase "might feel that this is a bit MEH", and that seems to be the understatement of the year.
It seems clear on last pages (as well as here and there through this thread) that playerbase indeed feels Hel got to little attention, and many with me seems to think it's rather stupid to remove triage and keep the logistics bonus at same time as they get the new role as capital-killers. So, some more suggestions been made.
SUGGESTION 3: FB speed bonus.
SUGGESTION 4: FB damage bonus (like Gallente, or instead of Gallente)
SUGGESTION 5: Shield Resist Bonus (like Caldari, or in combination with suggestion 4 split two ways)
To remember here is that Hel is the weakest MS/SC by far when concidering both tank and damage abilitys together, and will so continue to be it seems. The only thing that could make this ship gain some respect (besides it looks) among the other SC's is it's race-specific bonus.
Since FB is SC's new thing I can't think of anything better than to give it sharper teeths, so it get better damage to compensate for weak skin and short e-peen. Give it a hard-on to match Gallente so we got two races that tanks better and two races that make better damage.
My personal choice: My choice would be still your second choice on SiSi, the fighter Bomber explosion speed (suggestion 2) so it hit moving/smaller targets better (or 3% to both explosion radius and damage). Second best might be to split bonus to 3% Shield Resist (as Caldari) and 3% Damage to Fighters/FB's (as Gallente) - this said to give it a bonus to match them in effectivity, or at least get closer to it. Then it at least wouldn't be the worst tanker by far and also have some extra dps to the other supertankers.
Even a target painter bonus would be better than the old logistics one - for the love of God CCP - change it. And a lifesign in this thread would be nice also. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.01.05 03:37:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Natasha Nikolaev Edited by: Natasha Nikolaev on 05/01/2010 02:59:18
Originally by: ByFstugan
My personal choice: My choice would be still your second choice on SiSi, the fighter Bomber explosion speed (suggestion 2) so it hit moving/smaller targets better (or 3% to both explosion radius and damage). Second best might be to split bonus to 3% Shield Resist (as Caldari) and 3% Damage to Fighters/FB's (as Gallente)
The explosion speed idea really only helps with carriers/supercaps and subcaps. As dreads *will* be the main target (by far) in the capital arena, exp vel. bonus helps them against capitals only marginally and certainly less than the Nyx's bonus, which helps against all capitals equally. Given that even with an exp vel. bonus they will still be quite poor against subcaps (which shouldn't be a focus for them, anyways), I have to disagree with you on the value of such a bonus. I *DO* agree that their bonus should not be in personal defense, but offense-oriented via bonus to fighters/FBs. Straight up damage bonus is already taken and as I explained above I really do not thing exp rad or velocity bonus would make much sense. As for your second option, I personally do not think split bonuses will give enough of an increase to either Hel survivability or damage to make a worthwhile difference in either department. It's a "jack of all trades" thing but unfortunately EVE tends to heavily fabor the masters, not the jacks.
Significant increase to FB survivability equals less dead FBs, which means lower PITA and cost of ownership as well as significantly decreased likelihood of ending up in a situation where you dont even have a full 20 FBs to field. It isn't an increase in your ability to do damage, but it IS an increase in your ability to do damage over the whole of a capital engagement.
I agree that the main-targets mostly will be Dreads, who most likelly are in siege and not moving (besides those that bounced and not yet stopped), and that's an important point you have there. I just feel that extra life to FB's is a boring bonus say the least, and it doesn't make Minmatar SC master of anything noticable really mostly.
The bonus could be changed to ROF-bonus instead (not unheard of on Minmatar ships either) and be a unique damagebonus for Minmatar SC. But I still kinda like the explosion velocity bonus, and when U get a chance to kill another supercarrier, or perhaps even a Titan, this will be noticed.
I'm not totally against Hel having a personal defense bonus as long as some extra percentage is thrown in, that meaning 3% per level instead of 2,5%. It still will be the weakest SC so it's nothing strange to it really.
So my new suggestions would be in this order:
1) 3% to FB explosion radius AND rate of fire
2) 5% to FB rate of fire
3) 3% to Shield resistance (on ship) AND 3% to FB rate of fire
To get 15% unstacked bonus to tank EHP should be noticable, as well as 15% extra damage to 20 FB's (that's like 3 extra invisible ones). It might be less likelly to give Minmatar the #3 bonus, but if I could choose what I'd have if I build my Hel I think it would be that one. However the #1 or #2 might be more appropiate. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
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ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.05 04:03:00 -
[31]
This is suggestions to how the bonuses could be on the Supercarriers after Dominion 1.1.
The thought is to do a complete work and not only remove triage, but all logistics. As a change I put some racial gang bonuses and the logistics is henceforth only applied to regular carriers. The Fighter Range here also include bonus to drones so this drone-fighting-behemoth doesn't get T-rex arms when fighting with regular drones.
The Minmatar SC got it's bonus changed due to a breakthrough the Minmatar engineers did during the christmasholidays that CCP wasn't aware of before. Minmatars best engineers on their missile research labs had a couple of eureka ideas that we now see coming to public knowledge. This are great times that's not "meh" to Minmatar pilots ^^
Remove Bonus to all races: - Can fit Clone Vat Bay - Can fit Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration modules - 50% bonus to Capital Shield/Armor/Energy transfer range per level
Role Bonus to all races: - 99% reduction in CPU need for Warfare Link modules - Can fit Projected Electronic Counter Measures - 200% bonus to Fighter and Drone control range - Immune to all forms of Electronic Warfare
Carrier skill bonus to all races: - Can fit 1 additional Warfare Link module per level - Can deploy 3 additional Fighters/Fighter Bombers per level
Minmatar Carrier Skill Bonuses: - 3% to Fighter Bomber torpedoes explosion radius and rate of fire per level - 5% bonus to effectiveness of Skirmish Warfare Links per level
Gallente Carrier Skill Bonuses: - 5% bonus to deployed Fighters/Fighter Bombers damage per level - 5% bonus to effectiveness of Information Warfare Links per level
Amarr Carrier Skill Bonuses: - 5% bonus to all Armor resistances per level - 5% bonus to effectiveness of Armored Warfare Links per level
Caldari Carrier Skill Bonuses: - 5% bonus to all Shield resistances per level - 5% bonus to effectiveness of Siege Warfare Links per level
Besides that it would maybe be nice to have another racial bonus: - x% bonus to deployed Racial Drones/Fighters/Fighter Bombers damage per level _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.01.05 06:54:00 -
[32]
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Hate to admit it but removing the remote rep range would reduce the gayness that a MS blob will be but you can only have so many warfare links in a fleet before they become redundant. I really wouldnt want to see my reps removed.
I would love to see the bombers actually on sisi :)
I thought about it and changed my post to include that still and added a suggestion to give those module a passive bonus that makes them at least half as effective as a triaged version. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.01.05 14:58:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Mendolorian Girl
Originally by: Marlona Sky Edited by: Marlona Sky on 05/01/2010 08:09:08
Originally by: ByFstugan
Gallente Carrier Skill Bonuses: - 5% bonus to effectiveness of Information Warfare Links per level
I am not saying that this is a bad idea, but that bonus for Gallente is worthless. The info gang links are used less than 1% of the time for a reason, it is a horrible set of bonuses. Maybe they could change that to something worth fitting and then it would be cool.
Again I am not saying that overall the 5% to the racial gang links is bad, its just for the Nyx, it would not mean a thing. Now if they changed the Info links to drone related bonuses... then we would be on to something...
totally disagree.. 40% bonus to sensor strength on every ship in your wing/fleet is pretty darn useful, and the jam strength/range links make armor scorps considerably more potent. If Tri doesn't use ewar very much that's one thing, but don't project that onto others :)
It would be a major pain in the arse for me to retrain my toons for links, but overall I think it would be a great improvement.
Both may have points here but doesn't really matter since Nyx since long been the most popular MS due to their damagebonus - and when they get SC's that's unlikelly to change. Even with the worst leadership boost the Nyx will be the most popular SC a long time or forever.
So - when thinking about it this kinda leadership boost could accually be a way of even out the SC's to eachother so more of them get reasons to get. Will not make an insane difference though since it will be the EW-immune EHP monster with FB's that will attract most buyers of this ships. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.01.05 20:55:00 -
[34]
Edited by: ByFstugan on 05/01/2010 20:58:30
Originally by: Xtover
Originally by: ByFstugan
Caldari Carrier Skill Bonuses: - 5% bonus to all Shield resistances per level - 50% bonus to Capital Shield/Energy transfer range per level - 5% bonus to effectiveness of Siege Warfare Links per level
Besides that it would maybe be nice to have another racial bonus: - x% bonus to deployed Racial Drones/Fighters/Fighter Bombers damage per level
You're still making the Wyvern worthless other than a tank. if you're going to suggest offensive boni per race it should be across the board- your suggestions offer none for the Wyvern even though FB use torps?
First of all we gotta realize that SC's will be ships with high EHP (after HP-buff) and high damage (after Fighter Bombers are added) - and this is true for all of them even without racial bonuses.
Watching the past and present suggestion Amarr/Caldari has had extra high EHP, and this will be even more effective after Dominion 1.1. The suggestion to add the racial gang-bonuses to this ships will also help fleet on same area since they can give extra resists a bit better than other ships.
Besides that Gallente has had the extra damage, and will so continue to have. This makes this ship the most popular MS, and will most likelly continue to be that after Dominion 1.1. Hence the least intresting gangbonus suits this nasty damagedealer.
The only broken ship here is Minmatars with a logistics bonus that nobody wanted before, and is even more broken after removal of triage. Hence the suggestion is to make Minmatar SC to get more damage bonus so we have two SC's with more tank and two SC's with more damage. To give this ship that has less base shield, much less base resists and one less midslot to fit tank with than the Wyvern some extra damage is not at all unfair due to this context. What would be insanely unfair would be to give it a stupid logistics bonus as CCP suggested so far.
I think Caldari (and Amarr) can be happy that it is like this in a way - since no FC in their right mind will primary a better tanked/less damage dealing Aeon before a more damage dealing/weaker tanked Nyx. And same would of course go for Wyvern vs Hel if the later get a damagebonus also. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.06 03:39:00 -
[35]
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Do any of you routinely fly command ships and think "Man I feel worthwhile being on grid with the massive fleet fight". No? I didn't think so. Please don't campaign to turn MS into pos hugging supercapital command ships.
Well, there are quite a difference in EHP between a BC-sized Command Ship and a XL Carrier with massive HP-buff to begin with. The reason MS's been POS-huggers isn't that it could fit ganglinks earlier - it's that they were far to easy killed in todays version of EVE.
I'm rather sure most MS pilots have been longing for taking this ships to the Battlefields, but until now (after Dominion 1.1 kicks in) it's been plain stupid to risk this ships on the field. But from now on they will be shown there, and the pilots that trained them will not need to hide in any POS, more less will they want to :)
To Compare Command Ships and Dominion 1.1 SC's is useless, and it simply wouldn't make an SC-pilot not wanna use their Fighter Bombers - that still will be it's main thing even if it could get some extra bonuses to some ganglink that might be fitted. So in same way the old POSSIBILITY to fit gangmods wasn't the reason they were POS-huggers they will not become that after Dominion 1.1 due to the POSSIBILITY to fit gangmods with extra percental boost. They will instead due to massive EHP and Fighter Bombers be on the Battlefield henceforth.
Don't confuse what's the reason of something and what's an sideissue.
Originally by: Kraken Kill I dont like the extra use of gang bonuses on supercarriers. If they are going to be supercarriers which are going to be used offensively I think the added gangbonuses would go to waste, its still going to be titans giving out big HP buffs and people in dedicated commandships running actual links. I cant see any way id want to fit anymore than 1 link at the most on a supercarrier in precious highslots when a commandship can be full of them insted.
There are already gangmod bonus ships out there.
The Titans indeed are a special kind of gangbooster, but they got their own bonuses that's passive and no extra bonuses to warfare links.
The miners have their smaller ship with 3% bonus and a Capital version that gives 5% bonus per level to mining-links. There is no such alternative to the warfare links, and that's what suggested here.
However - the SC's main task will never be gang-boosters, but capital-killers and e-peens for the extra rich. So it's just an alternative for those who want to deliver some gangbonuses they might have trained - not something that's likelly to be main purpose in any way.
Perhaps mostly this bonuses will go to waste (as you say), as many bonuses are on other ships also, but this would just open an alternative to do something a littlebit better that's free to use or not for every pilot. It would effect your personal way of using your Hel like zero unless U fit a gangmod of skirmishtype, then it would boost your function there somewhat. It's however nothing that ruins anything, just might reinforce something slightly.
I do however think that would make Aeons and Wyverns to get a small extra edge when they with one highslot can give 51 or 255 pilots more tank in same way as they are a couple of the best tankers in game. This would make them more intresting compared to the Nyx with it's extra damage (that hopefully also is given the Hel in a good way).
So in all - it ruins nothing, just opens a door to do something very narrow (since it's race based) slightly better for those who might want to. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.06 05:01:00 -
[36]
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Do any of you routinely fly command ships and think "Man I feel worthwhile being on grid with the massive fleet fight". No? I didn't think so. Please don't campaign to turn MS into pos hugging supercapital command ships.
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Edited by: EdFromHumanResources on 06/01/2010 04:14:22 Congrats Atlas dude you argued a point I didnt make. I never said the reason current MS are in danger was because of command mods. They are even retaining their ability to use them in the expansion. Read earlier in the thread to see I fully understand why they are not acceptable without the EHP buff this thread puts forth.
You compared the SC (if it got some gangbonuses to warfare links) with a Command Ship and made a point out of them being useless on the battlefield - then warned us/me for trying to make this ship a POS-hugging supercapital command ship.
I just pointed out they will not be due to the EHP-buff and the Fighter Bombers and that a small possibility to get some extra leadership boost on racial ganglinks won't change that at all.
If I misunderstood you, plz explain how the suggestion with some gangbonuses to racial links risks SC's to turn into POS-huggers. What pushes them into POS's that you have in mind?
I did however not say you opposed to the EHP-buff, and I think one need to be very slow in the head to oppose to that - much like in the same level as to propose to keep the old bonus to the Hel after Dominion 1.1. Which neither you or me suggested - just saying ^^ _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.06 05:11:00 -
[37]
Edited by: ByFstugan on 06/01/2010 05:14:02
Originally by: SolarKnight I was actually referring to the link here:
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=696
Where in Abathur's original changes, the +1 gang link per level bonus is being removed.
I figured that the original changes were the changes going through, maybe CCP would like to C/D this?
Much has happened back and forth since then, and those ain't the present suggestion, it's the one EdFromHumanResources pasted to you in post #660. Between this and the one you posted they got and lost the ability to dock and got reduced build cost by 40% and back again (besides the CVB that goes and cuts 1B+ from buildcost). They got drones reduced to 2 per level and then back up to 3 again. And the Hel bonus was tried to be made intresting, and back to square one again and then another square back to minus one since it looses triage (logistics turbo) and keeps a puny logistics bonus. I don't even recall all that's happened, but since start of this thread all that's been it's just memorys not very important to remember.
Many off us wish to hear from CCP in this matter, espcially when it comes to the SC changes - but last weeks there been mostly silence. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.06 22:28:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Jomanda I do not know if it has been asked before, since I have not read all 23 pages, but what has been decided on the dronebay sizes of the SC's? Will they remain the same and/or will there be a fighter/FB bay, separate from the dronebay?
I think I've read all, but not sure if I missed somthing. But as far as I heard their plan is to make separate drone bay and fighter bay in order to prevent the silly amount of regular/smaller drones you otherwise could have. From what I recall they have not mentioned any numbers so far - and I'm not sure if they planned to fix this so it's implemented in Dominion 1.1. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.09 09:55:00 -
[39]
I for one hoping CCP is still alive and not feel finalized at this topic - then I mean especially about the Supercarriers. I hope they come back from their christmas/new year-celebrations soon and give some more feedback here so that we see that we are still listened to.
For instance topics I feel still need real good attention:
Hel racial bonus - It's really not fair to remove triage and make SC's cap-killers and let the weakest SC keep a logistics bonus - a specialized role it loosed the upperhand at with removal of triage.
- There are at the moment two races specialized in self-defence, Caldari for Shield and Amarr for Armor. It would be just logical to make Hel the other SC with a dps bonus, or a combination of self-defence and dps as Minmatar can be pretty wide in their functions. I'll suggest three bonuses in order I find them most logical that's been suggested earlier (mainly not by me, but I took what I liked most):
1) 5% Rate of Fire to Fighers/Fighter Bombers - In same way as the tankers got the two main versions of tank bonuses, this would give Minmatar the other version of the dps-bonus but still be a unique one and not same as Gallente.
2a) 3% Rate of Fire to Fighers/Fighter Bombers 2b) 3% Explosion Radius to Fighter Bombers - A combination of the above and the bonus CCP had on SiSi before the withdrawal pre-Dominion. It would give Minmatar a smaller dps bonus than Gallente, but also an extra bonus to hitting smaller/moving targets with the fighter bombers that in some cases even could out-dps Gallente. Since this firepower is from torpedos from drones and Minmatar is #2 missile race that's pretty ok with game history as I see it.
3a) 3% Rate of Fire to Fighers/Fighter Bombers 3b) 3% bonus to all Shield resistances per level - This is another combination suggestion with the same dps from ROF bonus and also a smaller tank-bonus in same manner as Caldari got. This makes it "not crap" compared to the other SC's and still not be as hard hitting as Gallente or as heavy shield tanked as Caldari. If I get a Hel, this would be the bonus I'd like most :)
I understand that it's less likelly to be a combination bonus, but since I like those alternatives so much I felt I could'nt resist putting them out here again. The most important thing though is to give Hel another bonus than the logistics-crap.
Shieldtanking supercaps - Implants What about an shield version to the slave-set? Perhaps a new one with a recharge penalty as someone suggested that eliminates the extra recharge one would get from the HP-buff?
- Bonuses It's not fair that so insanely much EHP should be lost when entering a new system or whatever that it takes hours and hours to passively recharge when armortankers get bonus instantly. This is even more so when the armor-tanking system is highly favored among capitals and therefor is much more likelly to be fitted in logistics carriers.
It feels to me that it's really important that you address those things now when so much related to them is on the table of change - since otherwise I, and many with me, fear they will be neglected for years to come (as earlier).
CCP plz do this stuff properly this time, and do start to comment here again. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.09 15:00:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin One quick note about ROF bonuses - remember that each percentage point of ROF results in a greater damage boost than each percentage point of damage. I did some really quick calcs (below, to lol at my failmath) and 3% ROF is equivalent to 5% damage as far as DPS is concerned :p
(failmath: Nyx: 20 dmg/shot * 1.25 dmg/shot = 25 dmg/shot ˜ 3/(1.00) {3.00} sec refire = 7.667 dps Hel: 20 dmg/shot * 1.00 dmg/shot = 20 dmg/shot ˜ 3/(1.15) {2.61} sec refire = 7.667 dps)
Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin Edited by: Ezekiel Sulastin on 09/01/2010 14:03:02
Originally by: ByFstugan I fail at bonuses.
Oh come on - I already explained this. 3% ROF = 5% Damage. I wish I could cajole someone into giving the Nyx its +25% damage AND a resist bonus (GALLENTE FOREVER) but it ain't gonna happen, whether I do it straight up or try to hide it behind a similar bonus. By extension, the 5% ROF bonus is better than 5% damage - again, nice try. Now, if you made it 3% for option 1, that'd work, but then you'd have to deal with all the people like yourself who don't get that ROF bonuses don't convert straight over to damage.
Oh man of great wisdom - I fail to see your math accurate.
First of all, my first thought was if you fire 1 shot with 10 damage per second, and then either doubles the damage or halfs the ROF the end result will be the same. So I thought, what math have you found that goes another way here. I went back here and found your post you mentioned, and tried to calculate what each of those numbers would do in damage per minute. Your base is:
20 damage per 3 second rate of fire.
Nyx 25% damage bonus 20x1,25 = 25 damage 60/3 = 20 shots/minute DAMAGE = 20x25 = 500 dpm
Hel 15% ROF bonus 20 damage 60/(3/1,15) = 23 shots/minute DAMAGE = 20x23 = 460 dpm
Now I wonder - how can 500 = 460 oh' man of great wisdom?
A more simple question could be how do you not get 25/3 to be 8,33? _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
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ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.09 15:11:00 -
[41]
Edited by: ByFstugan on 09/01/2010 15:11:49
Originally by: 0nline TBH knowing how many people plan to use motherships in the future the current Hel bonus is actually very good.
TBH you don't get that SC-pilots don't wanna be logistics pilots when SC's new role is capital-damage - and did you miss the removal of triage?
TBH Hel pilot's don't wanna be the MS that don't have neither extra dps or extra tank, and mainly fly their SC in order to support the other "real SC's" and do it at 25% efficiency to a triaged Nidhoggur.
TBH CCP guessed almost correctly when they guessed some might think the old logistics bonus was a bit "meh" - only with the correction of most thinking it's really REALLY "MEH". _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.09 22:03:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Natasha Nikolaev Edited by: Natasha Nikolaev on 09/01/2010 17:23:22
Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin
*curls into a little ball and cries himself to sleep after /wristing*
I stand corrected, and am firing my clumsy fingers for typos and brain for not catching them, o glorious dispenser of greater wisdom >.> Now I'm trying to figure out how people say that ROF bonus > damage bonus, but I don't have the time to atm
Because rof bonus is greater than dmg bonus. (assuming lvl 5 skills) 4% rof bonus would equal 5% dmg bonus. whereas 5% rof bonus would equate to a 6.66% damage bonus. They aren't going to give the Hel a 5% rof bonus for two reasons: it will increase lag and it will give it better dps than the nyx
Would you mind explain that in reason and math then plz, since using the former math I get same endresult in damage per minute.
BASE: 20 damage per 3 second rate of fire.
Nyx 25% damage bonus 20x1,25 = 25 damage 60/3 = 20 shots/minute DAMAGE = 20x25 = 500 dpm
Hel 25% ROF bonus 20 damage 60/(3/1,25) = 25 shots/minute DAMAGE = 20x25 = 500 dpm
How U get more dps if dpm is the same? _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.11 04:28:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Marlona Sky What I was trying to accomplish was when a Hel pilot fit faction/officer neuts on, they would be as if it was a capital neutralizer.
So besides that, what other options asides from what has already been suggested that would make it worth flying a Hel over the other moms that would not be a joke.
With risk of forgeting something I'll list what I recall:
- HP-bonus to Fighter Bombers (CCP's first suggestion) - Fighter Bomber Explosion radius bonus (CCP's second suggestion on SiSi Pre-Dominion) - Fighter Bomber Speed bonus - Fighter and/or Fighter Bomber Damage bonus (both same as Gallente, but in the end mostly ROF) - Shield Tank resist bonus (same as Caldari) - Bonus to Remote ECM Burst (most don't like this due to Caldari is the only race with ECM bonuses)
The thing to remember about the SC's is that they will get massive EHP and Fighter Bombers for capital-killing with high DPS - and therefor be a ship for large fleetbattles mostly. The bonus should give the Hel a bonus that equals the other races bonuses in that field, and as LoveKebab said it should probably be a passive bonus.
For my part I'd like to see a damage bonus, or a split bonus. That mean either be a SC with extra DPS like the Nyx, that would give us two SC's with extra damage and two SC's with extra tank. The bonus I'd like most if I get a Hel is a bonus that give half bonus to Shield Resist and the other half to Fighter and/or Fighter Bomber damage - and that would give Hel a mix between the other versions so it get half a tank bonus and half a dps bonus. In that case it wouldn't be as good as Nyx on DPS, or as good a tank as Caldari - but it wouldn't either have a bonus that would be better used in the butt of a monkey. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.11 10:12:00 -
[44]
I can also feel very much not intrested in some ideas that are made from to little knowledge, but there is no reason to be rude about it and try to dictate rules for who got right to post.
I know for a fact that owning a mothership doesn't make you any expert on facts or the most creative thinker, so one cannot exclude all peoples ideas that's not from such mouths.
It's also a fact that thinking outside the box can be a good thing - hence people in all businesses brainstorm with all options opened to try and grab some vital ideas to work from. It's nothing dangerous in that process - quite the opposite accually.
If ideas come from ppl who doesn't know enough or in some way are unerasonable they will most certain be refused by CCP. I know they can be REALLY slow to fix stuff sometimes, but mostly they balances stuff in really wise ways. Not in ways that make everyone happy - but that would be impossible due to the level of which a large percentage of the community is crybabies that never will be pleased.
We all wanna hear more from CCP in this matter - I again ask that ppl in here to not make this to a CAOD-look-a-like-whine-thread so CCP ignores all that's been said lately and pull out again or something. It's not hard to be constructive, just have ideas and motivate them - or listen to others and oppose them with arguments. Perhaps even put in a smilie
With much love and a flower //ByF _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.12 07:07:00 -
[45]
As Bobbeh says we will probably see much more kills on the capital battle field hence forth, and I also think that's good.
Should be much more intresting after Dominion 1.1 also when we'll see two kinda supercarriers on the field more and more also. Since they who don't use them will most likelly loose the battle - and on the other hand those who do use them risk feeding the enemy with chance of nice supercapital kills.
In this context the supercarriers needs to be good - otherwise we'll not see enough of them on the battlefield.
Probably would the titans need a boost to their damage bonus since noone will fit damagemods on titans I guess. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.01.12 08:11:00 -
[46]
Originally by: D Solarz
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Originally by: True Cyn That's just redic
Make motherships........I mean Superdupercarriers BIGGER in respect to their Superduper name
This unfortunately takes time, they can't simply make them bigger because then the skin for the model will look terrible. They have to enlarge the model and completely remake a new skin for it then release it to us. So I expect any sort of enlarging to our e ***** to be some months away.
idk how true this is. i seem to remember a certain midget carrier that had its model increased in size some patches back. pretty sure all it takes is to expand the model.
Wasn't that the Chimera? Wasn't that expanded during the old graphics? Couldn't the premium graphics be different in it's "bendy" abilitys?
Isn't really our problem how hard it is to fix though - but last thing said in the matter was that the topic was going to be taken to discussion at least. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.12 16:07:00 -
[47]
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Originally by: LoveKebab ETA for this to hit TQ ?
Soon.
Perhaps you could go back to page 17 here where you took off and listen to stuff that's been said and comment on it. Especially the Hel is still very broken compared to the other SC's. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.15 06:23:00 -
[48]
Edited by: ByFstugan on 15/01/2010 06:25:03 I looked into SiSi and see that info on SC's has finally been changed. But Hel has still it's old bonus - perhaps CCP would like to comment on that (and everything else that's been repeatedly talked about since page 15 when they took off before new year).
So far it seems that the change for Dominion 1.1 is only half way done concerning the SC's and CCP doesn't really care to do the job well but instead just seems to want to get something done so it's over with (otherwise I don't understand their silence since 29/12 in the middle of this thread plus their comment that the changes is "soon" here). I say it's better to do it properly now instead wait X years to do the fixes. To fix 3 out of 4 SC's isn't enough imo. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.15 16:29:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin
Originally by: Jon Brutor Also, carriers are used for logistical stuff. No one will use remote reps on a hel unless they like wasting highslots.
Because certainly you'd never have unjammable supercarriers spider-tanking each other, right?
Yes, that's what you wanna do - spend 15-20 billion iskies on a Supercarrier and use it as a logistics that's 1/4 as effective as a triaged carrier that costs 1/20 as much. Do you fly Hel or concider doing it? I guess not.
The large majority that has posted in this threas at least concider the old bonus failed compared to the other SC's, since they will loose their triage and get a new role as heavy tanked capital killers.
There will not be any short of carrier logistics support in the large fleet battles where this will be mostly seen. A couple of Hel's extra repping will not change this much.
Amarr and Caldari has their extra tank, which protect their investment and make their 15-20 billion survive more.
Nyx got it's extra DPS which make it more fierce in the battlefield, and higher stats in the killboards. Hel should be the second SC with a damage bonus imo so we have two of each kinda damage. Or else give it half a damage and half a resist bonus so it at least get something useful. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.15 19:39:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin Edited by: Ezekiel Sulastin on 15/01/2010 18:54:30 You DO realise I was poking at the "remote reps waste highslots" instead of the "Hel needs a real bonus", right? I too agree that the Hel needs a real bonus, and I pretty much echoed everything in your wall of text in my own two or three pages ago - can't remember if it was before or after my math fail, but I do distinctly remember shooting down the WE FORM VOLTRON guy and suggesting making the Hel the shield-tanked gank-SC. However, there's always utility in unjammable support of your fellow SCs, and that applies to ALL of them.
Specifically, he wanted to give the Hel the Nyx's damage bonus and give the Nyx a fighter only bonus, which would make the Nyx as undesirable as the Hel is now as the bonus would be unrelated to the task of killing capitals. Seeing that CCP fixed the signature radius et al of capitals such that target painters wouldn't be required, I suggested the Hel get some sort of bonus equivalent to the Nyx bonus as a simple option to CCP ...
{EDIT - found it: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1236843&page=21#629 so maybe it's a few more pages >.> ...}
Nah - I didn't get that. I thought you meant since you objected to it being a waste and also argued with the extra strength from EW-immunity that you accually also thought it was a good bonus. I have not very much in memory who said what in former pages, but when you say that I recall what you mean.
No matter what you meant just now it needed to be said again - at least if CCP still at all intend to lend their ears to our thoughts any more. Which it to me sadly doesn't seems as. Sad panda :'( _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
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ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.18 14:07:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Mirauder As for a Hel bonus, you could offer 5% bonus to training time of other race carrier skills
LOL ... this was funny ... however bitter the suggestion might be to the Hel pilots atm :) _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
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