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Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2010.03.15 12:13:00 -
[1]
The logic is fairly sound, the more skill points the clone can hold the more expensive (advanced) the clone should be.
Reviewing the costs for some of the higher end clones (120mil sp+) it would appear there is definitely a water shed point where this becomes senseless punishment for playing a high skill point character.
The rebuttal is that older players have amassed more wealth, can make isk more easily (?) and this mitigates any possible skewing of fairness for clone costs. <- you can quote this for easy reply/troll
However, there are some other factors to take into account:
-The beauty of eve is, that despite a massive gain in SP over your competition, there is a less than linear gain in real combat advantage. A 150mil SP char hops into a battleship, no matter what his SP are in, it only takes so many lower SP characters to thrash him (see also: nearly impossible solo pwnage in eve).
Taking this into account, why should the above character face paying 30mil+ per clone to engage in combat? Why play that character at all? Why not just start a lower SP char to use. This is an excellent example of a veteran actually being punished for using his high SP character in combat.
-The flawed logic that simply because a character is older, they have access to billions upon billions of isk. Perhaps your a come-and-go player? You keep your account active (pay $$) and keep skills training on your main. Eventually you will realize that it simply costs too much to take that character into combat instead of creating an alt. Again, needless punishment against the veteran character.
-The conclusion (also somewhat flawed logic) that many high SP characters come to: I must fly bs/command/t3 to make it worth my while. Let me explain... If your clone costs 30million isk, do you not have trouble justifying flying a cheaper (possibly more fun) ship because of clone cost alone? Who wants to fly an interceptor, destroyer, cruiser with a lower survivability with such a clone cost? You feel you almost need to fit the best and biggest for the job just to keep the odds of staying on the battlefield longer. Sadly, some of the most fun pvp moments in this game are found in lower isk ships.
-The grind. This may be the worst of them all. You play for years and pay for years. However at the end of the day, you require MORE time to make isk than your lower SP friends because your losses (not just clone, see last point) are substantially higher. This is a double whammy because as we all know, the longer you hold your account the more odds you get tired of the game. What logic could CCP hold to force their more veteran characters to grind EVEN MORE THAN EVER just to break even and be able to enjoy a weekend of pew-pew.
I submit this to you forum readers. I'm not asking for vets to get a hand out, but couldn't CCP taper off these clone costs at some point? Give the higher SP characters more reason to find some of the care-free fun in this game they had as a newb? Why such a penalty for simply taking your character into combat?
As a suggestion, I would keep costs where they are up to 90mil SP, at which point there would simply be a premium 90mil SP+ clone at a set cost. The logic that because you have given dedication to a 5-6 year character that you should shell out 40-50mil or more per clone is just rediculous and is in definite need of adjustment.
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Freyya
Advanced Planetary Exports Intergalactic Exports Group
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Posted - 2010.03.15 13:00:00 -
[2]
This too belongs in "Features and ideas" as it seems more at home there..
I somewhat agree but then again, everything gets more expensive the longer you play..shoul clone costs really be that much different? ___________
NOW COLLECTING ISD AND CCP AUTOGRAPHS It'll be worth something someday. -Rauth
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Estel Arador
Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2010.03.15 13:08:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Estel Arador on 15/03/2010 13:08:47 Not only do clones get more expensive in absolute terms, they also get more expensive in relative terms
SP saved (in Millions) per million isk.
Omega 3,0 Psi 2,9 Chi 2,9 Phi 3,1 Upsilon 3,4 Tau 4,0 Sigma 4,6 Rho 5,4 Pi 6,9 Omicron10,9 Xi10,7 Nu12,5 Mu14,3 Lambda15,9 Kappa17,7 Iota18,9 Theta20,4 Eta20,8 Zeta21,7 Epsilon21,9 Delta20,0 Gamma17,7 Beta12,0
Free jumpclone service|924 stations - 6000+ users |
Ghoest
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Posted - 2010.03.15 16:29:00 -
[4]
Well the OPs right. Clone costs should not increase geometrically.
After about 20 mill SP earnings depend almost entirely on how much and how smart you play the game not on your SP.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Great Artista
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2010.03.15 16:34:00 -
[5]
Clone costs is CCP's way of saying that the "End game" isn't 0.0, but lowsec.
____ Rockets need a boost. CCP status: [_] Told. [x] Not told.
◕◡◕
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Phosphorus Palladium
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Posted - 2010.03.15 16:39:00 -
[6]
Due to the high clone costs for high SP players, I pvp with a 20mil SP character instead of with my main. The main does missons, manufacturing etc.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2010.03.15 16:44:00 -
[7]
Maybe they just do it to encourage high SP players to get second accounts.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Shaloran Kalior
Gallente Clown Punchers. Clown Punchers Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.03.15 16:47:00 -
[8]
1. Wrong forum
2. You dont lose a clone every time you engage in combat (or if you do, you're doing it wrong)
3. You dont have to fly expensive ships just because you can
4. The highest SP character in the game's best ship is a Hulk
In conclusion, this is a over 6 year old character, and you're wrong. Post with your main! |
Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2010.03.15 16:51:00 -
[9]
I'm nowhere near needing the top SP clones, but can already make 120mil like it was nothing. I have a head full of implants that are each worth that much on my main clone, and use a jump clone full of +4s for anything risky.
If you've been playing for 5-6 years and think 120mil is a lot you need to actually play the game more often, instead of only logging in to gain more SP you can't afford to cover.
My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Ghoest
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Posted - 2010.03.15 16:57:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Professor Tarantula I'm nowhere near needing the top SP clones, but can already make 120mil like it was nothing. I have a head full of implants that are each worth that much on my main clone, and use a jump clone full of +4s for anything risky.
If you've been playing for 5-6 years and think 120mil is a lot you need to actually play the game more often, instead of only logging in to gain more SP you can't afford to cover.
The other people who disagreed had real points - your point on the other hand is stupid.
If you are a competent person making money is solely a function time spent once you hit 20 mill or so SP.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2010.03.15 16:59:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Ghoest
Originally by: Professor Tarantula I'm nowhere near needing the top SP clones, but can already make 120mil like it was nothing. I have a head full of implants that are each worth that much on my main clone, and use a jump clone full of +4s for anything risky.
If you've been playing for 5-6 years and think 120mil is a lot you need to actually play the game more often, instead of only logging in to gain more SP you can't afford to cover.
The other people who disagreed had real points - your point on the other hand is stupid.
If you are a competent person making money is solely a function time spent once you hit 20 mill or so SP.
And your point was what? SP don't make money on their own? Brilliant observation.
My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Ikserak tai
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Posted - 2010.03.15 17:05:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Estel Arador Edited by: Estel Arador on 15/03/2010 13:08:47 Not only do clones get more expensive in absolute terms, they also get more expensive in relative terms
SP saved (in Millions) per million isk.
Omega 3,0 Psi 2,9 Chi 2,9 Phi 3,1 Upsilon 3,4 Tau 4,0 Sigma 4,6 Rho 5,4 Pi 6,9 Omicron10,9 Xi10,7 Nu12,5 Mu14,3 Lambda15,9 Kappa17,7 Iota18,9 Theta20,4 Eta20,8 Zeta21,7 Epsilon21,9 Delta20,0 Gamma17,7 Beta12,0
Cap the rate at the Omicron level, as clone technology should also have advanced and costs stabilized.
YOU'VE NEVER ROCKED 'TIL YOU'VE UNDOCKED. |
Ghoest
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Posted - 2010.03.15 17:37:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Professor Tarantula
And your point was what? SP don't make money on their own? Brilliant observation.
I demonstrated that either your reasoning was flawed or that you had no argument at all.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2010.03.15 17:39:00 -
[14]
Needs a Veldspar Clone, for those of us who only train in Veldspar... oh wai...
*woke up*
Secure 3rd party service |
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Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2010.03.15 17:42:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Freyya This too belongs in "Features and ideas" as it seems more at home there.. I somewhat agree but then again, everything gets more expensive the longer you play..shoul clone costs really be that much different?
I'm seeking a general discussion on the topic. This is a discussion of balance regarding an existing feature, not some revolutionary idea to replace POS/whatever
Originally by: Estel Arador
Not only do clones get more expensive in absolute terms, they also get more expensive in relative terms
nice maths! I had a working idea but never crunched the #s
-End game is low sec? I think you may be onto something
Originally by: Shaloran Kalior 1. Wrong forum 2. You dont lose a clone every time you engage in combat (or if you do, you're doing it wrong) 3. You dont have to fly expensive ships just because you can 4. The highest SP character in the game's best ship is a Hulk In conclusion, this is a over 6 year old character, and you're wrong.
-wrong -no one suggested such a thing -i pointed out that this is a logical fallacy many succumb to in efforts to improve survivability of their expensive clones. thanks for making my point -it's a pvp game. endgame=hulk is fail -congrats, you paid for 6 years and have learned nothing
Originally by: Professor Tarantula
If you've been playing for 5-6 years and think 120mil is a lot you need to actually play the game more often, instead of only logging in to gain more SP you can't afford to cover.
if you step back for a second, you'll see your making my point for me
Originally by: Professor Tarantula
And your point was what? SP don't make money on their own? Brilliant observation.
you'd think by the structuring of clone costs that they did!
Originally by: Ikserak tai
Cap the rate at a reasonable level, as clone technology should be advancing with costs stabilizing.
EXACT-I-MUND-O!
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Neesa Corrinne
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2010.03.15 17:44:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Great Artista Clone costs is CCP's way of saying that the "End game" isn't 0.0, but lowsec.
Agreed
I hate going into 0.0 with my high SP characters. Not only that, but I hate flying certain ship classes with high SP such as interceptors and AF's.
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Benri Konpaku
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Posted - 2010.03.15 19:48:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Benri Konpaku on 15/03/2010 19:48:04
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia The rebuttal is that older players have amassed more wealth, can make isk more easily (?) and this mitigates any possible skewing of fairness for clone costs.
This indeed.
If people failed to acquire the knowledge and skill to make isk (which is a fundamental part of the gameplay) then yes, they should be punished for it. |
Nezekan
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Posted - 2010.03.15 19:59:00 -
[18]
Isn't this what jump clones are for? Keep your Medical Clone safe and use jump clones for the nitty gritty stuff.
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Last Wolf
Rage For Order
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Posted - 2010.03.15 20:12:00 -
[19]
Even if you die in a jump clone you still have to update your clone. Mine costs me 8 mill now, which isn't much but it is annoying.
Oh no you don't! Incoming witty reply, ETA: 300 seconds! |
Xtreem
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.03.15 20:14:00 -
[20]
unless im flying a t2 fit and rigged bs, my clone costs me more than a replacement ship and fittings with insurance.
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Amberlamps
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Posted - 2010.03.15 20:16:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Benri Konpaku Edited by: Benri Konpaku on 15/03/2010 19:48:04
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia The rebuttal is that older players have amassed more wealth, can make isk more easily (?) and this mitigates any possible skewing of fairness for clone costs.
This indeed.
If people failed to acquire the knowledge and skill to make isk (which is a fundamental part of the gameplay) then yes, they should be punished for it.
Some people have to spend more time in the real world than they do playing Eve generating the ISK to replace their clone costs. For some of those costs I could get myself a shiny new T2 ship or even a fitted battleship, its a joke.
For those that are saying... if you're getting podded everytime you're doing it wrong... Well you're either not in 0.0 or you've never experienced a game crash or lag.
I completely support this idea, Cloning should only be a way of saving a month worth of accumulated SP not an ISK sink or a way of punishing a player for not making enough ISK.
If anything Clones should be the same price for everyone, as is contracts.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2010.03.15 21:30:00 -
[22]
I understand the graduated clone costs early on(players in their first year need to be encouraged to stay and learn the game.) And I understand that that dying shouldnt be painless. So Im not quite agreeing with a few a of the extreme ideas.
But but once you have a year or so under your belt the increasing pain of dying should be the ships you decide to fly in not the amount of time you have played.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Baneken
Gallente Aseveljet
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Posted - 2010.03.15 21:32:00 -
[23]
Or replace ship insurance with clone insurance ?
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Patri Andari
Caldari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
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Posted - 2010.03.15 22:16:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Patri Andari on 15/03/2010 22:18:18
Originally by: Baneken Or replace ship insurance with clone insurance ?
Medical Clones are insurance. They insure your SP. This discussion in advancing the proposition that the insurance costs are too high as a character scales up. Patri
I'll Roshambo you for that Titan |
Ephemeron
Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.03.15 22:38:00 -
[25]
I am against the ever decreasing costs for pvp, and ever increasing isk per hour activities.
It's getting ridiculously easy to replace ships and make billions per week. PvP losses start to mean almost nothing unless you are faction fitted.
If you are 4 year old vet and you can't make 30 mil an hour easy, you just suck, and you fail at EVE. And either you get smart and learn to play better, or go play WoW
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.03.15 23:04:00 -
[26]
you have more sp than I have isk, HTFU
ffs seriously is this the best whine you can come up with?
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McFly
Peanut Factory BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2010.03.16 02:10:00 -
[27]
Edited by: McFly on 16/03/2010 02:16:42 This is the exact reason I quit flying light dictors on my main. My clone costs as much as a sabre. and when u die in a fire in a dictor you're mostly guaranteed to lose the pod. I have people in alliance often say just pod urself over here for the pew. But that gets expensive.
The cloning mechanic as a whole should be looked over. Is this isk sink really necessary? I doubt anyone can make an argument that it isn't biased against the veteran players. I don't think people fly high value tricked out ships because of clone costs, but I think it's fair to say a lot of us will train an alt to take over the duties of certain classes as they are more prone to podding. Which begins to stack up expensively very quickly in today's sov warfare.
Why should veterans cough up the price of a BC/BS to fly back into the fight? Sure you can replace the cost of a clone with an hour of ratting or an anomaly, but why is the imbalance needed?
Implants are much more aggravating to lose, but when u live in 0.0 and only use implanted clones for specific ops. Most of the time u fly without implants, to reduce the costs of 0.0 warfare. Morale and Participation are definitely requisites to maintaining sov with the current system (as was the previous) throwing a wrench in the gears because everyone is broke from clone costs and ship losses that they have to go carebear for awhile before the next reinforcement timer just doesn't seem right imho.
Edit: Also regardless of your SP, PVP isn't usually an income source, it can be, but not usually a stable income. Most players that concentrate on the PVP side of the game in nullsec may have large amounts of SP, but most of it isn't centered around income. At the same time, most of these people have CNR/Golem Alts in Motsu I suppose. It is kind of funny to note, that we pay to play this game to work to pay to play the pvp side of this game. Of course that can be negated by flying a survivable fully insurable T1 BC. But where's the fun in that? Give me the glass cannon ships I trained for. I don't care if I die, or T2 insurance is pointless. But would be nice not to get that other bill that happens whenever there's a bubble up or sensor boosted ceptors drooling over my wreck.
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Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2010.03.16 02:14:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Ephemeron I am against the ever decreasing costs for pvp, and ever increasing isk per hour activities.
It's getting ridiculously easy to replace ships and make billions per week. PvP losses start to mean almost nothing unless you are faction fitted.
If you are 4 year old vet and you can't make 30 mil an hour easy, you just suck, and you fail at EVE. And either you get smart and learn to play better, or go play WoW
Ephemeron, you've blown so much isk on pvp it's friggin ridiculous. "PvP losses mean nothing unless your faction fitted" lol. Do you listen to yourself or just type things w/o thinking? You really think this is the status quo across the board? Just because YOU have isk/time to play falling out of your arse doesn't mean that is the case for everyone.
If the only way you feel a loss is full faction/officer fit ships you must realize you are the exTREME minority. Either -you've done shady things to make some of the isk you've had over the years, -you simply have huge blocks of time where you have no life and dedicate way too much time to eve OR -your the rare exception to the rule that has fashioned a niche of quick isk easy.
Any of the above 3 makes grants you the right to fly the best of the best of the best. I'm not knocking you on that. Any of the above 3 makes you the exception to the rule. Any way you look at it you must realize your personal experiences and opinions do not fit the majority of eve players, no?
Hell, I agree that 30mil isk/hour is easily obtainable! No one is suggesting you can't make isk. But the balance is already there through ship/fit/implant costs. You want to fly it and lose it, YOU WILL PAY.
Not sure where your hate for a clone cost change stems from? Or is it a 'slippery slope' that will lead to everyone flying officer fit faction bs if they don't have to shell out for their clones every pop?
I think perhaps you just missed the point entirely???
You can spend all the time in the world making isk and flying uber ships. Understand that there is a huge player base on the other side of the coin. Responsible adults with jobs and family that simply CBA to spend hours upon hours of making isk just to have some isk to pvp with on wkends.
Veterans get jacked just for using their main and have no cheap option for pvp bar alt city (which makes eve suck and again, is just a silly punishment for having that char for years on end).
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton you have more sp than I have isk, HTFU
ffs seriously is this the best whine you can come up with?
ffs, is this the best troll you can come up with? When I started eve we had to troll through a meter of snow up hill both ways... kids these days, HTFU indeed.
We have so many sinks in place, the ships/fits themselves are already a hit enough when you die. Last I checked implants were a pretty penny too (and yes, we have JUMP CLONES so if your not stupid you can avoid that loss as well). Unless *gasp* your implants are combat oriented, then you are again already taking a nice big bite of isk loss sandwich on podding. This only supports my point.
The detraction from flying half the ships in the game because it simply isn't worth it in the long run serves no one. Unless you have isk to burn (again, exception to rule) you do not take a 40mil clone out for a spin in a rifter for fun. Can't you see how the current mechanic detracts from the game instead of adding to it? It serves neither the player nor CCP and just becomes one more needless PITA
There is no pvp on the cheap option after a certain degree for veteran chars and there is no logic behind that.
I'll draw it out for you: -Explain to me exactly how tapering off the costs for a clone at </= 20mil would be bad for the game and/or -Explain to me how ship/fit/implant costs do not already cover the needed risk/reward balance
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.03.16 03:07:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton you have more sp than I have isk, HTFU
ffs seriously is this the best whine you can come up with?
ffs, is this the best troll you can come up with? When I started eve we had to troll through a meter of snow up hill both ways... kids these days, HTFU indeed.
We have so many sinks in place, the ships/fits themselves are already a hit enough when you die. Last I checked implants were a pretty penny too (and yes, we have JUMP CLONES so if your not stupid you can avoid that loss as well). Unless *gasp* your implants are combat oriented, then you are again already taking a nice big bite of isk loss sandwich on podding. This only supports my point.
The detraction from flying half the ships in the game because it simply isn't worth it in the long run serves no one. Unless you have isk to burn (again, exception to rule) you do not take a 40mil clone out for a spin in a rifter for fun. Can't you see how the current mechanic detracts from the game instead of adding to it? It serves neither the player nor CCP and just becomes one more needless PITA
There is no pvp on the cheap option after a certain degree for veteran chars and there is no logic behind that.
I'll draw it out for you: -Explain to me exactly how tapering off the costs for a clone at </= 20mil would be bad for the game and/or -Explain to me how ship/fit/implant costs do not already cover the needed risk/reward balance
how dare you call me a troll!
trying to say that losing a ship is an isk sink... I think I know who the troll is here.
and explain to me why 100m sp chars should have cheap clones? whining that flying a frigate loses you money isn't a very good reason imo.
and if your point is about high sp chars in "4FUN" rifters, ship loss/mod loss shouldn't count for a damn thing. implants are a risk/reward choice, do you want that extra performance or not?. hell a trimark with t2 fit battleship isn't even that big of a loss.
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Barbens
Black Lotus Foundation
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Posted - 2010.03.16 03:08:00 -
[30]
I absolutely agree with your premise. You are being charged more, simply because you have more skills. There should be an across the board cost for a clones past a certain SP level. It may be a bit rough for younger players to buy clones, thus the need for a smaller rate.
BaRbEnS
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