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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.24 16:15:00 -
[1]
I prefer the jag as its so damn versatile with the 4 mids and great omni shield resists which free up those precious lows for even moar versatility. It's like a super rifter. The wolf on the other hand is really only good in a few gank role situations which the jag can also fill though with a bit less dps. But then again we are talking about frigate level dps so the gap is around 50 dps total on gank fits which is not even close enough imo to give up +2 mids and a fair amount of speed. I mean what would you choose? 300 overheated dps with the choice of no tackle or no tank on the wolf. Or. 250 overheated dps with a tank and full tackle on the jag along with moar speed in the bargin?
Originally by: Ava Starfire does much more DPS,
wtb: armour tanked te wolf that outdamages a shield tank gyro jag.
Plugging your fit into eft gives me right at 160 dps for the wolf whilst the jag gets around 190. And the wolf still has less ehp(except vs em which is a bit higher) lacks a web and is slower and less agile. Of course the wolf has the potential for greater dps but I already covered that above.
Originally by: Diomidis Both ships lack what most good frigs / ceptors get as a bonus - tracking for their turrets.
Thus most AB frigs can out-track both of those AS unless webbed - something the wolf is not likely to do. At least the jag has enough midslots to fit a web.
Good point about soloing vs dual prop or afterburning frigates and has lost me a few ships over the years but that is pretty rare to find in these blobby days. Tbh the high base tracking of ac means that this single situation is about the only one where no tracking bonus makes a real difference. Besides if you do find yourself in a 1 vs 1 with an ares or some other ab fit frig you can still get around it with a single te or a metastasis rig or even a td instead of the web if you want. Just make sure you can fit a neut and cap them out so they can't shoot you anymore or pulse the prop mod.
Originally by: Ghoest If I remember right you can fit 2 medium shield extenders on a Jag.
Oh yes. Its a god amoungst frigate tacklers in full nano shield tank mode as it can even chase down and hold nanocanes burning away from a gate whilst getting hammered in the face by low transversal 425's as it catches up. The jag is simply an uber heavy fast tackle with top skills and implants.
<3 Jaguars
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.25 18:36:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Bomberlocks Get 6 or 7 Wolves, add one or two Vigils with TDs (for corpies who can't fly T2 ), add a Sentinel and a Griffin/Kitsune for flavour. Let it bake for a few roams.
Take it out of the station and let it cool for 5 minutes.
Voila, the Wolfpack.
Then watch as your glass cannon gank wolves start dying one by one to random crap as the roam continues. Replace those wolves with jags however and you get nearly the same aggregate dps(certainly enough dps to quickly dispatch bs and lower) whilst being able to mount tackle, a tank and ew shineys like damps to increase lock time and td to arse raep turret ships or even dual prop it for epic cruiser and battle cruiser raepage.
If you already have the required ew along then you can tank them up and lulz at pretty much any anti frig stuff you run across. Just not really seeing where a wolf is better than a jag which begs the question when will af get their 4th bonus? A tracking bonus added to the wolf would make it an awesome arty boat and a real threat as a gank boat due to being able to hit all ships regardless of prop mod.
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.25 19:04:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Umega Let others tackle. Put MSE/prop in the two mids then load the lows with gyro/TE combos. Ain't so glassy anymore with significantly extra punch in its dps vs jag. You should know this by now, Zeba.. we been through this about 57 times!
Jag > better solo n fleet tackler Wolf > better dps gang boat or solo PvE
Flying with no tackle on the majority of your ships in a frigate gang when the alternative is a small decrease in dps that won't make any effective difference one way or another should be a crime punishible by permapoddeath.. If I saw that you brought a shield tanked no tackle wolf in my frigate gang I'd ask you nicely to replace it with a jag or even a rifter(less of an embarrasement on the killboard) then boot you if you refused. Getting that initial point is paramount and a bunch of shield tanked wolves sitting around a gate is worthless for that. Unless of course you brought enough tackle frigates which would then beg the question why the fvck do we have so many lulz dps tackle frigs to compensate for the no tackle wolves in the first place. Just bring a jag ffs.
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.25 19:46:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Zeba on 25/07/2010 19:47:09
Originally by: Umega Everyone doesn't have to have a point.. cause everyone doesn't sit at a gate with their thumb up their ass when they go on gang ROAMS.
Hey guys lets spread out and hit some belts etc etc then call out and point targets if you find them. Oh, and you guys in the shield tanked wolves go ummm, be worthless I guess.
Originally by: Umega Can say it should be an all jag fleet..
An all jag fleet would arse reap an all wolf fleet. Every Single Time.
Originally by: Umega I personally would prefer a mixture of tackle jags/drams
That would rock! Especially as both can mount great frigate level dps along with the tackle and still toss in some random useful ew mods.
Originally by: Umega simply because the wolves dps is that much more superior.
And yet it isn't. At least not in a practical sense anyways.
Originally by: Umega When **** is dead, you don't got to tank or point it anymore. Get it?
Of course. But that is a general statement and applies to any situation. And as has been pointed out the jag has nearly the same or even moar effective dps when compared to a non lulz shield tanked gank wolf of uselessness or the glass cannon tackle gank wolf of soon to die. Both of which are a waste of a precious frigate gang slot.
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.25 20:53:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Umega I'm not arguing that the jag is the more verstile ship.
And don't mislead people, just because you love the jag to no end.. that it actually compares in dps to the wolf. Come on.. you can crack the whip all you want on the jag bandwagon, but don't go spitting out misinformation to boost your case when you don't need to do so.
Jag's dps is decent(sorta), but it doesn't come close to a wolf. I don't see how you can really argue this or why you should.
And everyone doesn't have to fit their ships, and do their methods the 'Zeba Way'. If your way never fails, then you should have hundreds of followers, control a vast amount of space and rule a majority of the galaxy. But that isn't the case, or even close.. is it?
Nothing really wrong at all with pointing out other options for a ship, and an MSE/prop gank fit wolf is an excellent ship. Can sit here and dispute it all you want. Might look a little better to actual admit the point of it still remains.. it is a superior gank ship to a jag. Not everyone has to have a point, its 'overkill' and wasted slots imo in certain situations n gang setups.
I want to see actual dps comparisons with useful fits to go alongside your claims as you seem to have a bit of a blurred conception of the actual difference when put in the context of a gang. Either that or I quit replying to you.
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.26 06:22:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Umega I'd say it takes blurred vision to not grasp that +1 turret and +1 low with +falloff trait over optimal = signficantly greater dps. Don't need eft.. just need basic common sense.
Yes because a gank fit glass cannon or no tackle med extender wolf that gets 50 dps(less without overheat) moar than a gank jag with full tackle or scram and ew mod and tank is 'significantly moar' dps in the context of a frigate gang. Do you even play the game or just troll like intigo? Oh wait..
Originally by: Umega Don't respond, idc.. why don't you actually prove a jag is on the same tier as a wolf in dps. Otherwise as far as I am concerned, my statement stands til you can prove your point.
Point has already been proven earlier in the thread. Still waiting for you to prove your point with useful fit comparisons that will benefit a gang instead of your place on the killmail by getting those few crucial tenths of a percent moar damage dealt but I think our dear readers already know the truth.
Originally by: Umega I'll just continue about my day and half expect you to spin your wheels and dodge the point,
I never dodge the point but you seem to be doing rather well at that skill set atm. Shall we name thee the Artful Dodger?
Originally by: Umega and rant about something else other than actually proving a jag is at the same lvl of dps as a wolf.
Never said the jag is at the same level of dps as the wolf. However the difference is so small(50 dps if both are gank fit) that its fairly irrelevant when adding in all the extra goodness a jag brings to the gang over a wolf.
And yes I replied after all when I had said I wouldn't if you stalled again but you are nearly as amusing as intigo so why not. Please continue to amuse me with your replies as this reply took me all of 5 minutes to compose because you make it so easy.
Originally by: Gedeon Starchaser Why choose?
They both require the same skills, for the most part. Buy them both, try them out, see which ones work in which situations.
For my part, Wolf is my assault ship of choice. 200mm AC II + Barrage + 2 x TE II + Wolf's falloff bonus make for some unhappy slicers and interceptors who think they can orbit you at 20km and snipe you or lock you down until their friends get there. Solid for missions and for pvp, not the best at anything, but lots of fun.
For solo against stupid or inexperianced pilots the wolf can be quite a suprise if they try to kite you. But then you run acoss the smart pilot and you die horribly. ffs I have killed wolfs in my shield tanked ab rifter before the gang could arrive.. The sad fact is that the wolf simply can't fit tackle along with a decent tank and still put out acceptable dps so it dies far too fast to put its negligable additional dps to any real use.
Jag >>>>> Wolf which is what the thread is about. But by all means buy a few wolfs and see for yourself as experience is always the best teacher.
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.26 07:53:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Umega Its like.. you almost grasp'd the whole point of this arguement. But not quite..
When a gang has tackle.. is another point more valuable, or roughly 25% more dps from a ship? I don't see how the answer to that question isn't sinking in. I woulda figured for you, it would have by now.
Its like.. you almost grasp'd the whole point of this thread. But not quite..
Now if we were talking about a cruiser or higher gang where 25% moar dps might actually add up to something significant then your point of view makes sense. But in the context of a frigate gang that 25% is meaningless given the already low dps that 25% modifies when tackle and ew are paramount to maximise your ability to catch and kill targets. Frigs with two mids suck for frigate gangs and always will 25% extra damage or not.
Originally by: Umega Doesn't that 50 or so dps spread begin to add up when you sub out jags for wolves when adaquate tackle is already achieved?
There is no such thing as adaquate tackle in a frig gang. There will be a point where you all spread out and your shield tanked 'gank' wolf with no tackle just reduced your gangs chances of getting a kill. Nice to be selfish for that extra few spots closer to the top of the killmail for you it seems.
Originally by: Umega Dead is dead.. the faster it dead, the faster it ain't shooting back, trying to run, stalling for reinforcements, more time to move onto other targets.
There.. that should make it clear enough.
Yes dead is dead and unfortunately that ship you tackled in your wolf who instapopped you because you had no tank or simply missed the tackle because you well.. ummm had no tackle is now at his safe or docked up and lolling at you in local as your fc /facepalms for letting you talk him into bringing your zomg dps wolf along.
Originally by: Umega Yes.. I already stated the jag is more versitile, but ignoring the wolf's potential/ability and what it does bring as opposed to the jag is a pretty moronic, one minded, a rather poor and unstratagic thought process in approach.. imo.
You don't sub out jags for a wolf in a frigate gang ever. The wolf brings an additional 50 dps overheated to a gang over a jag and loses a web/ew mod, speed and tank. So to repeat a comparison from earlier in the thread you can either take a glass cannon or tackless shield tanked wolf that puts out 300 dps overheated or you can take a bog standard jag that puts out 250 dps overheated that has tank scram, web/ew and nano. What fc in his right mind would choose the wolf? What pilot in his right mind would choose the wolf?!
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.26 08:59:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ambaseter Doggy Zeba yes 50 dps isnt much. but also rember there frigates, 50 dps is alot bigger than it sounds. also the faster u kill it the faster u cant die. tank means nothing if u cant kill it
Solo? Sure thing and there are a few situations were the wolf in an experienced pilots hands would be a good ship to use. But in the context of a gang where smaller stuff pretty much instapops to your gangs aggregate dps or the larger stuff that takes a bit longer to kill usually can't hit you due to trans and ew issues that 50 dps is meaningless. Especially when you have to give up precious ew and tackle mods to get it. So lets delve a little deeper into what 'in context' means in this debate.
Lets take your typical small gang roam and only use jags and wolves to keep it ontopic to this thread. Gang size is six pilots who all know each other well and can count on each other to not need hand holding past following the fc's target priorities.
Gang 1: 3 jaguars and 3 wolves both setup for gank and tank with some useful ew on the jags.
Roster: 1 jag with web scram. 1 jag with long point and td. 1 jag with scram and dual extenders for baiting. 3 wolves with no tackle or ew because we have adaquate tackle after all and extra ew is for sissies.
Aggregate dps: 1650
Gang 2: 6 jaguars setup for tank and gank with even moar useful ew mods.
Roster: 2 jag with web scram. 2 jag with long point and td. 1 jag with scram and td. 1 jag with scram and dual extenders for baiting.
Aggregate dps: 1500
Does it really need to be any clearer?
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.26 19:31:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Umega Actually a MSE wolf can fit a slightly stronger tank than a MSE jag and still put out more dps, yes minus the point. Which makes things interesting when people might expect a glass cannon wolf and such isn't the case.
That typicaly misleading omni ehp total you are seeing is due to the wolf having a bit more hp in armor and hull. The jag has at least 700 more ehp in its primary shield buffer which is the one you rely on anyways as once you are past shields on both ships you die pretty quick even solo.
Originally by: Umega Also your numbers are false. A duo-MSE jag isn't going to put up 'comparable' numbers anymore. So your little scenario is a bit off and false in rallying to your point. The difference in DPS increases.
You are correct. I forgot that you have to 'downgrade' to 125mm on the dual extender so that ship will only get 200 dps overheated.
Revised numbers:
Gang 1: 1600 dps
Gang 2: 1450 dps
I mean really mate..
Originally by: Umega And to add to all of this.. the fits I was trying to come up with for a jag to come as close as possibe to a wolf in dps had no neuts, when the wolves had neuts. Would you dare say that a neut isn't an important ew aspect then?
For a solo boat then that small neut can literally turn the battle especialy with capless guns. In the context of the frigate gang I listed the stuff those 6 small neuts can effect in a reasonble time died nearly instantly and the stuff that doesn't die quick will snicker at 6 small neuts as it still dies horribly. Besides you need all of your cap to run the ew side of things so using a small neut would not be very smart as both ships are not exactly the kings of cap.
Originally by: Umega So in your scenario, dps difference is actually bigger. And is also 3 neuts on the 3/3 side vs zero neuts on the 6 jag side. Unless you want to give the jag neuts, making their fits more difficult in hitting closer to the wolves. Lets make sure everyone has all the info here so they can decide. Hmmm, yup.. you shoulda made it clearer.
Herp Derp you really don't play the game do you.(or at least with competant gang mates. you: hey gaiz lets go on a zomg super duper shield tanked wolf roam! gaiz: Yay!)
However I do salute your theory crafting and eft warrioring as you almost made it a good fight.
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.26 21:34:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf AF need to be fixed in general.
Agree. The rifters 7.5% per level tracking bonus would propel the wolf into a great arty boat which is what its really supposed to be using instead of ac.
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf I'd still take a wolf over a jag any day however.
*glances at your name* I smell a bit of bias.
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf You actually get to use all three of it's bonuses.
Not typically unless you are in a rare kiting duel with another kiting frigate in an even rarer 1 vs 1.
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf Jags with "only" a 50 DPS difference from a wolf are using lolrockets.
Fair point but rockets only suck vs other frigates and have no issues applying full damage to larger hulls. And even against frigates they do a large portion of their theoretical damage when the target is scrammed and webbed.
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf Take those off or put on a small nuet/nos and the real DPS difference is 60-70+.
You are now bickering over less than 10 dps and we have already covered why small neuts on a gang frigate are not optimal when it takes up fittings you could use for better dps or tank or even both.
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf (you can also put lolrockets on the wolf) It gets up to an 80 DPS difference overheated.
But to do that you have to go to a lower tier of guns or gimp some other aspect of the ship which will actualy keep you right around the same overall dps. Besides you just stated that you prefer neuts so please stick to one line of reasoning.
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf The DPS comparison again is only on paper. It drops as you go deeper into falloff. A wolf's falloff is much superior to a jaguar's.
The EHP superiority of a jag over a wolf can be anywhere from 2k - 5k EHP depending on how much DPS the jag wants to give up. I'd take my wolf against jags across that spectrum and consistently win.
And yet this isn't about lolsolo 1 vs 1 even though I don't think your glass cannon wolf is going to kill my jag first. It's about what ship to use in a general sense. Also thank you for trying to use the wolfs falloff bonus as defence for its usefulness. If you want to actually use your scram and neut you are going to have to get into the 5k range of your target and be able to dictate the range to keep it there. So we have a ship with no web or nano because you gotta have 2x te and 2x gyro to make it worth boarding with only two mids that is also not very fast trying to dictate range on a ship with a web and scram which can get to its 1k optimal range and stay there. So now we have a dead wolf and a purring jaguar that didn't even get into armour.
The Wolf Sucks.
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.27 05:34:00 -
[11]
*grins in anticipation*
Originally by: Umega Eh? You do understand how falloff increments work, right? The chane-to-hit formula and all that good stuff going from 90-50%? Ok jag or wolf jumps right on top of each, jag ain't getting out of wolf's falloff and they BOTH in optimal.
Wolf dies horribly due to no tank or if med extender fit and the jag pilot is not a moron the jag simply warps out. Though even with a med extender the jag will completely dictate range and melt the wolf as it effortlessly tanks it due to the better primary buffer.
Originally by: Umega Scenario B - They race towards each other, wolf is already pumping out higher dmg to begin with, and with greater accuracy and greater ranges. Please do present the facts to the public correctly, Zeba. And you want to make comments towards me if I really understand this game.
Yes because the extremely slight extra damage the wolf does with its bit of extra falloff in the 2 seconds it takes the jag to get in optimal range and lock the wolf down with its web will somehow turn the tables.
Originally by: Umega And you really want to use a crutch of saying the jag can dictate range vs a wolf? Come on, seriously? If you're in optimal, chances are he/she is too. With the extra punch.. with a neut on your addmittedly craptacular cap.. so really, Zeba.
Again if you are glass cannon fit so you can do that zomg extra punch damage and actualy mount tackle even a rifter will pwn you. Every time. so really, mate..
Originally by: Umega Wolf doesn't, in reality.. suck.
Wolf does, in the fake reality of the game.. suck totally and completely.
Originally by: Umega The only thing sucking around here is your unability to acknowledge what is reality and misinforming the public to do it your way when other viable options exist for players to take and succeed with.
D-:
Let me repeat.
D-:
Gleefully awaiting your next suicide run.
Originally by: Captain Nares
Originally by: Srialia And people wonder why Israel and Palestine can't get along.
Coz the ability to speak, write, push buttons and use fork doesn't automatically mean that you aren't a stupid monkey
But the monkeys are so amusing with their antics. How can one resist to play with them?
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.27 05:56:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ambaseter Doggy Edited by: Ambaseter Doggy on 27/07/2010 05:52:53 zeba the with the incresed damage it means the wolf can kill the jag faster than than it can be poped. also with just 1 dcu 2 on mine i get 6k ehps and 180 damage. with a scram and nuet.Also i have a sar2 on it it can live. the wolf dosent suck. you just dont no how to use it
wtb: Wolf that can simultaniously neut, scram and rep on a horribly gimped capacitor. D-:
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.27 06:19:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Ambaseter Doggy i never said stable. Anyways lets just agree to disagree. The jag is awesome for solo and jags+wolfs make a powerful gang. Fair enough?
Jag + Wolf is giving up 2 mid slots for the ew you will absolutely need to take down larger prey. Plus 2 jags also give you the option to succesfully bait someone nasty if the second jag is dual extender fit, not to mention the better primary buffer and speed you get with the jag over the wolf. And you want to ignore all that for +50 dps overheated? jag + wolf: 550 dps. 2x jag:500 dps. lulz..
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.27 06:44:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Umega Wow. You're not even worth the time anymore to bother reading any post you make anymore, anywhere, ever. And I used to think you had a clue. But apparently your ego and need to be 100% right about everything has made you blind. Kinda already knew that, just had it confirmed.
But please do keep on twisting everything around to fit your whim, claim one thing, then dismiss it when it counter-acts an original point you have made. Anyone with reasonable intelligence and reading comprehensions that actually gives a damn reading this thread will see you have done it, and quite often. So, please continue. It's getting both sad and funny at the same time and I am amused.
You shoulda left that opening statement with 'if jag isn't moron, he warps out' But you had to go on your jag-homer tangant about how since its somehow relevent that if a jag dictates range, it can melt face over the wolf. Which.. really doesn't make any sense we already established the wolf owns overall range and chance-to-hit because of such. Way to go Zeba, not sure what you grinning about when you opened up with that one. Kudos.
Claim how quick something dies is important and happens frequently, yet dismiss the benefits of 50-80 dps on a ship with better chance-to-hit and better range. Really.. thats brilliant, Zeba. Contridict yourself much?
I wouldn't exactly classify 25-37% dps difference, Plus better chance-to-hit from longer range/better falloff 'slight extra damage'. But hey, whatever reality you want to invision, knock yourself out.
Rifter vs wolf.. you're really starting to look like a jag homer thats in farther than you first anticipated. But feel free to grin it up and respond with.. something.
You simply must provide me the link to the rant generator you just used! It's totally first class.
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.27 06:52:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Ambaseter Doggy from the description
All that really needs to be quoted and replied to tbh.
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.27 06:59:00 -
[16]
Ishkur and Enyo both suck. lol small blasters and kinetic damage plus unbonused easily killable drones..
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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