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Daergaar
Caldari
Yama Seki
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Posted - 2010.08.06 21:15:00 -
[1]
Okay, so I'm a fairly experienced passive shield tanker, and I'm good at math (geophysics as a profession). What I wanted to know and couldn't find is what exactly is the function for passive shield recharge?
Variables I am assuming should be known:
Maximum Shield HP
Shield Recharge Time
Current Shield HP
Basically I'm looking for a forumla to calculate the instantaneous regen rate of the shields for any arbitrary Current Shield HP. Does anyone know it?
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.08.06 21:18:00 -
[2]
This is probably what you want:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Passive_shield_tanking
Specifically look at this section: Formulas Complicated and Tankable DPS Complicated
-Liang
--
Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
On Twitter
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Daergaar
Caldari
Yama Seki
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Posted - 2010.08.06 23:25:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Liang Nuren
This is probably what you want:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Passive_shield_tanking
Specifically look at this section: Formulas Complicated and Tankable DPS Complicated
-Liang
I looked at it long and hard, believe me, but didn't find what I was looking for. Those formulas given simply calculate the maximum shield regeneration and the average shield regeneration, not the instantaneous shield regeneration.
In other words if instantaneous shield regeneration is "R", current shield HP percentage is "C", I want to find a function R(C) that will give me the regeneration rate at ANY arbitrary current shield HP.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.08.06 23:36:00 -
[4]
Hmm... I thought they went over this in that article. It uses the same formula as capacitor, which can be found here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=116993
-Liang
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Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
On Twitter
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Oramin
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Posted - 2010.08.06 23:49:00 -
[5]
Looks like Liang is faster than my Google searching skills:
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/390368/page/1
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Daergaar
Caldari
Yama Seki
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Posted - 2010.08.07 02:40:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Hmm... I thought they went over this in that article. It uses the same formula as capacitor, which can be found here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=116993
-Liang
Thanks Liang. It really isn't obvious that it's the same, I would have never known. Let's write it out. I'll define some variables better.
Sc -> current shields (units: ShieldHP)
S -> maximum shield capacity (units: ShieldHP)
T -> time for shields to recharge from zero (units: seconds)
t -> time (units: seconds)
k -> recharge constant (units: none) (value of 4.8)
so then Sc(t) = S*((1-(1/cosh((k/T)*t)))
Taking the derivative of that, we should get the recharge rate R(Sc) = d(Sc(t))/dt .
That implies that:
R(Sc) = (4.8/T)*(1-Sc/S)*sqrt(2*(Sc/S)-(Sc/S)^2)
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.08.07 04:47:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Hmm... I thought they went over this in that article. It uses the same formula as capacitor, which can be found here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=116993
-Liang
Another more recent article: Capacitor recharge formula (once again)
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Cataca
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Posted - 2010.08.07 05:56:00 -
[8]
Just to clear this up, do you mean instantaneous recharge amount for given shield, or rechargerate for some interval..
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2010.08.07 08:49:00 -
[9]
Liang Nuren said "Hmm... I thought they went over this in that article. It uses the same formula as capacitor, which can be found here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=116993"
That's wrong. It shows peak at 30% when the real peak is at 25%. Unless the shield formula is not the same as capacitor.
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How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2010.08.07 09:00:00 -
[10]
Daergaar said " Therefore at Sc = 4378.5 (25% of my max shields), my recharge rate is:"
We can make that far more simple. At 25% of your shields your peak HP regen = (shield cap / shield recharge rate)*2.5=x
Simple to use, can be used on the fly. Anything more complicated isn't really that useful in game or when you are messing around with lots of ships .
Why do you want to know the instantaneous shield regeneration? Just for fun? As its very complicated and time consuming to work out and doesn't really have any value or use in game. Most people just use quick estimated numbers.
This curve from Dust Puppy http://www.nada.kth.se/~ksig/myndir/figure4.jpg is slightly wrong and the curve is too low and peak is 25%. But if you just want an estimated peak regen at each point in the % cap rate of the shields take a glance.
Say I want to know the regen at 65%. I follow the line up and across and hit 1.5. Then just do HP regen = (shield cap / shield recharge rate)*1.5=x
The easiest way to work out numbers accurately would be to plot an more accurate curve. Then just use the formula HP regen = (shield cap / shield recharge rate)*b=x after looking up what b is on the new graph.
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How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.08.07 19:38:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Pottsey
Liang Nuren said "Hmm... I thought they went over this in that article. It uses the same formula as capacitor, which can be found here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=116993"
That's wrong. It shows peak at 30% when the real peak is at 25%. Unless the shield formula is not the same as capacitor.
Yeah, I remember a thread with Entity where this was shown, but I don't think it had an actual formula posted.
-Liang
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Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
On Twitter
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Amunherkhepeshef
Diplomatic Disruption
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Posted - 2010.08.07 20:33:00 -
[12]
Dust Puppy's thread on cap:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=116993
Summarized:
http://www.softtoyssoftware.com/KOTSAsq45j/cap.htm
A shield model derived from it... constants are tweaked to fit the function to shields:
http://www.softtoyssoftware.com/KOTSAsq45j/ShieldModel.xls
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Aion Amarra
Minmatar
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation
Black Core Alliance
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Posted - 2010.08.08 01:23:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Aion Amarra on 08/08/2010 01:25:18
Originally by: Daergaar
=> R(4378.5) = (0.0136752)*(1-0.25)*sqrt(2*(0.25)-(0.25)¦)
=> R(4378.5) = (0.0136752)*(0.75)*sqrt(2*(0.75)-(0.75)¦)
That's where the magic happened.
Or rather, that's where you made -one- mistake. The entire formula seems strange to me for some reason, but I'm too tired to figure it out myself.
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Cataca
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Posted - 2010.08.08 03:41:00 -
[14]
now, im pretty much as drunk as it gets, so im probably wrong, but it seems like OP did get it mostly right? the factor you calculated at 25% shield says you regen 350 (or so) shield.
after all you calculated a facor, not something else.
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Daergaar
Caldari
Yama Seki
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Posted - 2010.08.08 04:23:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Cataca
now, im pretty much as drunk as it gets, so im probably wrong, but it seems like OP did get it mostly right? the factor you calculated at 25% shield says you regen 350 (or so) shield.
after all you calculated a facor, not something else.
Where'd you get the 350 from? That would seem correct. I must have made a mistake while plugging in numbers then?
Also, the reason I want to know the instantaneous formula is for curiosity's sake, and to do some models of damage incoming over time.
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Daergaar
Caldari
Yama Seki
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Posted - 2010.08.08 04:25:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Aion Amarra
Edited by: Aion Amarra on 08/08/2010 01:27:03
Edited by: Aion Amarra on 08/08/2010 01:25:18
Originally by: Daergaar
=> R(4378.5) = (0.0136752)*(1-0.25)*sqrt(2*(0.25)-(0.25)¦)
=> R(4378.5) = (0.0136752)*(0.75)*sqrt(2*(0.75)-(0.75)¦)
That's where the magic happened.
Or rather, that's where you made -one- mistake. The entire formula seems strange to me for some reason, but I'm too tired to figure it out myself. Your recharge around that point should be something close to 125/s, anything vastly different is definately wrong.
Yeah I made a mistake, but even when the mistake is corrected, the formula must still be buggered up because the numbers aren't even the right order of magnitude.
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Cataca
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Posted - 2010.08.08 04:49:00 -
[17]
well as said, im pretty much wasted and stuff, but according to the formula you sport, you have a factor you multiply with your max shield to get... whatever you wanted to calculate...371 or so.
you DID want to calculate a factor, didnt you?
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Isan'na
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Posted - 2010.08.08 05:31:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Isan''na on 08/08/2010 05:33:00
First of all, my derivation of Sc = S(1-sech(t*k/T)) gives: R(Sc) = 1 + (S*k/T)tanh(t*k/T) sech(t*k/T).
This requires solving for t at a given current shield, but that can easily be solved as: cosh(t*k/T) = -S/(Sc-S).
Plugging in the 'nice' values of 4000 Sc, 17500 S, and 350 T (t solves to ~55s) gives an instantaneous recharge rate of 117.3 shield/second, which is close to the expected 120 hp/s of 2.4*S/T; as the value of 4000 is under 25% shields, this is as expected.
Hope that helps. :)
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stankpod
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Posted - 2010.08.08 06:04:00 -
[19]
So the 167 shield a second regen I get is only when my shield is at 25%? are you trying to figure out dim returns?
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Daergaar
Caldari
Yama Seki
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Posted - 2010.08.08 07:57:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Isan'na
Edited by: Isan''na on 08/08/2010 05:40:35
Edited by: Isan''na on 08/08/2010 05:36:37
Edited by: Isan''na on 08/08/2010 05:33:00
EDIT: Read the below if you'd like, approached from different method. Cataca is right, you calculated a factor. Multiply that by your total Shield Hit points and you get 120 peak regen as desired!
First of all, my derivation of Sc = S(1-sech(t*k/T)) gives: R(Sc) = 1 + (S*k/T)tanh(t*k/T) sech(t*k/T).
This requires solving for t at a given current shield, but that can easily be solved as: cosh(t*k/T) = -S/(Sc-S).
Plugging in the 'nice' values of 4000 Sc, 17500 S, and 350 T (t solves to ~55s) gives an instantaneous recharge rate of 117.3 shield/second, which is close to the expected 120 hp/s of 2.4*S/T; as the value of 4000 is under 25% shields, this is as expected.
Hope that helps. :)
Edit: Solved for 25% shields with above numbers, got 119.67. Also fixed a missing negative >.<
Thanks so much, this should be correct. The game is giving me a shield recharge rate of 124 hp/sec (on the character sheet) with 351 sec recharge time and 17514 shield hit points max. That seems far from the peak regen, which should be about 2.4 times that (297.6). Maybe there's a communication failure here between what I'm reading and how I'm interpreting it.
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Cataca
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Posted - 2010.08.08 16:28:00 -
[21]
ouch.. isan'na is obviously right, and i shouldnt take a calculator in my hands when im drunk. But hey, t'was 4 in the morning and i figured it out still.
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Isan'na
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Posted - 2010.08.08 17:16:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Daergaar
Thanks so much, this should be correct. The game is giving me a shield recharge rate of 124 hp/sec (on the character sheet) with 351 sec recharge time and 17514 shield hit points max. That seems far from the peak regen, which should be about 2.4 times that (297.6). Maybe there's a communication failure here between what I'm reading and how I'm interpreting it.
Well, if the game is giving you 124 hp/sec, that's correct, actually...
17514 Shield / 351 sec = 49.89 shield /sec * 2.4 =~ 120 hp/sec @ 25% by the rule of thumb.
So just use either of our calculation methods to model it from zero to full. Best of luck!
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2010.08.08 21:38:00 -
[23]
Isan'na said "17514 Shield / 351 sec = 49.89 shield /sec * 2.4 =~ 120 hp/sec @ 25% by the rule of thumb."
If you use 2.5 you get 124 hp/sec which match's in game.
Like it was said before, Dust Puppy's's old thread of peak at 2.4 at 30% is wrong. It's peak 2.5 at 25%.
______
How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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