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Vytone
Ganja Labs Exodus.
18
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Posted - 2012.08.22 00:01:00 -
[151] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Vytone wrote:Cearain wrote:Diesel47 wrote:Lev Arturis wrote:Off-grid boosting needs to go. We didn't need those in all the years before to fight vs. the odds. Learn to probe. Yeah, dontcha know you need a probing alt to find the other guys boosting alt in "alts online." I thought we already agreed it should be "Whine on the forums because you can't cope till ccp change the mechanics for you online." Carebear tears, best tears! Ah I see, because this mechanic is so bad you can't really defend it, you resort to name calling. Everyone who realizes this is a **** mechanic must just be a whiney carebear.
No offensive tactic is technically "defended". They are countered. And the counter to an OGB is either superior tactics or an OGB of your own.
Being titan bridged upon by a 100 man blob is a **** mechanic too but it works as intended, I'm not whining and complaining for ccp to change it because it can't be effectively countered. I expect it and prepare for it as it is part of the game. Sorry that YOU can't "defend" against certain tactics, but every tactic has a counter. But again your too lazy to figure it out so just call it unfair and beg ccp to change it for you. As far as the name calling goes, if the shoe fits.........
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Hrett
Justified Chaos
163
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Posted - 2012.08.22 00:22:00 -
[152] - Quote
Armeggeda iscariah wrote:So , after reading the CSM minutes (what i cared to read that wasnt Twostep being a ragey dumb ass.) I came across the ever so controversial topic of Offgrid links.
~~
So, In-light of what my opinions are what do you guys think ? And if Dev's give a **** to post (Not like you guys play your own game anyways so your uninformed as hell.) what do they think ?
Kill offgrid boosting.
And Armeggeda, since this is your thread and you bring up AlvachiUSA alot ( ) then I will say this:
AlvachiUSA was very very very successful in BWF with an ON GRID boosting cloaky Ferox (I thinkt that is what it was?). Sometimes we caught it and killed it. Sometimes we didnt. But it was at risk, and that was the point. The offgrid stuff is just silly for the amount of bonuses it gives. Put it at risk on grid where it becomes a target and I have no real issue with it.
IMHO. I'm probably typing on an iPad, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
1409
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Posted - 2012.08.22 00:57:00 -
[153] - Quote
Vytone wrote: No offensive tactic is technically "defended". They are countered.
He was saying "defended" as in "defend the argument that OGB is fine". "OGBs have counters therefore they are fine" is a defense, so hey-o, it can be defended. Quit twisting words around.
"X has counter Y" is not always a proper argument for X being balanced. It also depends on Y's viability.
Suppose Falcons could cloak up so long as there was nothing within 1 km of them. Call it a super-cloak or something. No restrictions to cloaks from targeting or anything. The argument could be posited that it's balanced because you could have a dedicated speed frigate or prober with you that warps to 0 or runs at it and bumps it to keep it from cloaking. It has a counter via "superior tactics", therefore it is balanced, right? People would be instructed to HTFU and get a decloak alt that can fly a Rifter with a MWD, along with their own Falcon alt. This is balanced, right? Bullshit.
It could just run away before you get there. It could cloak up as you're approaching, and be already aligned by the time you decloak him. He could just be staying aligned to begin with, and cloak/warp on your approach. It is ridiculously easy to get away and be perfectly safe in this ship. Having to dedicate one or more fleet members for a slim chance of catching a ship that serves as a massive bonus to the other team is a poor "counter" -- on top of the fact that having such a ship doesn't really contribute to the fleet overall if the enemy does not have such a Falcon. This would be a broken mechanic/ship and people would be up in arms to nerf it.
Now, back to OGBs. How are they different? They:
- Require less manual piloting than a Falcon to work at full effectiveness. Push the boosts, align, and you're gold.
- Require less manual piloting to stay perfectly safe than a Falcon. Align, spam d-scan. See combat probes? Get ready to warp out. See anything on grid? Warp out (cloak if you have one, too; it's a T3!).
- Can operate safely from inside (or on top of) a POS.
- Are far more difficult to associate with your enemy. Is that Loki on scan the same neutral in local, and a booster for the enemy gang? Who knows? In hisec, he's untouchable. In lowsec, you have to GCC on him (and possibly take gate/station gun fire to attack him).
- Do not have any viable counter in soloers / small gangs. Is every 5-man gang supposed to have a max-skilled and Virtue-setted prober with them?
- Legitimately have "bring your own booster" as a counter. Remember the proliferation of supercapitals, and how they were balanced because the whiners were the ones without the ******* (or cash) to "bring their own"? Same idea.
So... OGBs are worse for small gangs, safer, and inspire more alt-play than a super-cloak Falcon would. A lot of people would call out the latter as unbalanced and call for nerfs, but... OGBs are somehow okay? Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Vytone
Ganja Labs Exodus.
18
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Posted - 2012.08.22 02:34:00 -
[154] - Quote
I'm not twisting words around dude I'm just reading what he's writing and clearing it up for him. By the way, how do you know what he meant? I suppose you could assume whatever you want but I read the words and rebut like a proper human being does. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
1410
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Posted - 2012.08.22 02:48:00 -
[155] - Quote
Vytone wrote:I'm not twisting words around dude I'm just reading what he's writing and clearing it up for him. By the way, how do you know what he meant? I suppose you could assume whatever you want but I read the words and rebut like a proper human being does. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/defend
Quote:1. a : to drive danger or attack away from "defend our shores" b (1) : to maintain or support in the face of argument or hostile criticism "defend a theory" (2) : to prove (as a doctoral thesis) valid by answering questions in an oral exam c : to attempt to prevent an opponent from scoring at "elects to defend the south goal"
As this forum thread is basically the topic "what does the community have to say in defense of offgrid boosts", and since there is no particular one off-grid boosting ship in question, it is reasonable to assume he meant the bolded definition of "defend", and not defend as in remote rep or otherwise directly ensure a specific OGB doesn't get destroyed. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Smurfinator
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.08.22 02:56:00 -
[156] - Quote
Make links raise your sig and make any ships running them probable, there fixed it. Move along now. |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
4
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Posted - 2012.08.22 09:35:00 -
[157] - Quote
Smurfinator wrote:Make links raise your sig and make any ships running them probable, there fixed it. Move along now. And that will make on grid boosters more vulnerable (including field CS and BC which sometimes run links), which isn't the point of intended remake.
Ideally, the point is to make more roles suitable to actually play them, not run them with alts.
IMO the criteria is if you need to pilot ship in order to keep stuff going (or can you do anything else of value during this with this ship)? If no, then it could use a look. Examples would be mining, boosting. Not touching cynos here since the problem is really sensitive, but one should tanke into account how useless recon cyno bonuses are, so maybe something could be done there. |
Dan Carter Murray
92
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Posted - 2012.08.22 10:21:00 -
[158] - Quote
Schalac wrote:To all the people that say to train probers to find your OGB, I say **** off. to all the people that think this will hurt CCP financially I say **** you. Off grid boosting is a sham and you will be dealt with, deal bitches. The only thing I want to come from this nerf is allow all command ships into all FW major sites. If it is a major site Tech II BC should be allowed into it. T1 bc has fitting bonus to links.
Links aren't expensive. |
Rixx Javixx
New Eden Renegades Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
0
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Posted - 2012.08.22 11:03:00 -
[159] - Quote
if they nerf offgrid links, many people will sell their loki alts and cancel the subs on the account
i know i would.
ccp would lose ALOT of money |
Darkstar Warrior
DarkstarRed
2
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Posted - 2012.08.22 11:30:00 -
[160] - Quote
Speaking as someone who sunk over a year and a considerable amount of isk into making a combat booster alt, obviously I don't want to see off-grid boosting completely disappear.
Leadership skills take a decent chunk of time - the charisma attribute they use means you want to do them when you're mapped for them which means you might as well get them all done in one go. It's been suggested that perhaps instead of doing them ALL, everyone could do some. If fleet bonuses worked in a cumulative fashion - which they don't - then yes I could see that many BC/t3/CS running one or two links each, thus not completely gimping the ship for any other purpose (like defensive/offensive capabilities), would be useful and reduce the skills investment required. I haven't seen CCP suggest making boosts cumulative though.
Right now, say you had a loki with sirmish mindlink in FC, tengu with siege mindlink in WC and a bunch of folk with leadership 5 in squad command roles. The loki's skirmish bonuses would apply as would the tengu's siege bonuses and whichever of the two pilots had better skills would apply the bonuses from any armor/information links being run on those ships. This is NOT cumulative. Any seige links the loki was running or skirmish links the tengu had active would be completely superseded by the other pilot's superior bonuses, and thus not counted.
So we're back to a limited number of boosters running multiple links by pilots who've had a considerable amount of time invested in skills, and usually in fairly flimsy ships. Command ships are the least vulnerable because of t2 ship resists but they're slower than t3s and struggle to maintain pace with fleet; t3s give superior bonuses but are far pricier and far more likely to die when caught.
The other issue is one of dual-boxing. Most combat boosters are alts simply because of the time requirement on the skills - would you want to take 9 months out of your combat skillplan to train up t2 ganglinks and leadership skills? Me either. Regardless of the quality of your pc and how many monitors you have available, I would argue that dual-boxing two characters in a combat situation is extremely difficult and likely to lead to mistakes and the loss of one (or both) ships. This is where the 'off-grid' bit gets relevant.
But I do agree that boosters shouldn't be able to make such a valuable contribution in 'perfect' safety. I would fully support a change which meant you couldn't activate links inside a POS shield. And perhaps it's worth applying an effect whereby active links increased your sig radius or nerfed your speed - making you easier to probe down? Another possibility would be some form of visible effect on the ships being boosted so that anyone engaging knows they are not in fact just dealing with a solo rifter but a heavily boosted one. Thus indicating to you that there's a booster in space somewhere you might want to deal with ASAP.
There should be risk involved in providing boosts to combat fleets - but I strongly feel that taking these booster alts on-grid renders them totally unworkable. I for one, would be forced to either field my booster alt or my combat main - not both. Which begs the question of which account it's viable to keep paying for...
[If I've merely repeated what others have already said then I apologise. Wanted to throw my tuppence in but am already overloaded with info today and didn't read the entire thread. No disrespect intended. :) ] |
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Nicaragua
SkREW CREW Local Down
19
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Posted - 2012.08.22 11:47:00 -
[161] - Quote
Off grid boosting is bullshit - that is all |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy Caldari State
31
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Posted - 2012.08.22 16:25:00 -
[162] - Quote
I'd be happy with an overview or "aura" indication that a ships has gang link boosts applied.
Aura - Similar to ECCM, Sensor boost, tracking computer. |
TomyLobo
Posthuman Society Elysian Empire
23
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Posted - 2012.08.23 20:21:00 -
[163] - Quote
Moonlit Raid wrote:I'd be happy with an overview or "aura" indication that a ships has gang link boosts applied.
Aura - Similar to ECCM, Sensor boost, tracking computer. There's one. Maybe you need to open your eyes? |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy Caldari State
31
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Posted - 2012.08.23 20:31:00 -
[164] - Quote
TomyLobo wrote:Moonlit Raid wrote:I'd be happy with an overview or "aura" indication that a ships has gang link boosts applied.
Aura - Similar to ECCM, Sensor boost, tracking computer. There's one. Maybe you need to open your eyes? Not the booster, the boostee. Fuckwit. |
Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
356
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Posted - 2012.08.23 21:56:00 -
[165] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Quote:what i cared to read that wasnt Twostep being a ragey dumb ass I agree, offgrid boosting should stay. I also agree that you shouldnt be able to boost from inside a POS. I dissagree that CS/T3 bonuses shou;d be swapped, the fact that you can't tank a boosting T3 at all makes up for it.
Unfortunately, offgrid boosting from inside a pos is necessary for rorqual pilots. Hotdrops by titans on rorquals would proliferate and relative safety of the pos is the only real place for low-sec miners to place the rorq properly.
Also, boosting mining fleet from on-grid is even worse. Offgrid boosting should stay - just nerf it so the boost isn't as grandiose as it is now. Perhaps less boost, but less requirements for the gang links so more links of different types can be applied ?
(Just a thought).
CSM7 Skype Leak
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Cap James Tkirk
The Nommo
14
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Posted - 2012.08.23 22:05:00 -
[166] - Quote
OGB is fine stop whining and get your own damn booster or figure out a better counter then NERF NERF NERF cause i dont wants to think and like easy mode |
Lotty Granat
0utbreak Outbreak.
2
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Posted - 2012.08.23 22:55:00 -
[167] - Quote
I know I'm too far down in this thread as TLDR is the order of the day but I have a suggestion to back all the pilots who like offgrid boosting to enhance small gangs against blobs. This is also why I like it and I'd like to see it enhanced for small gangs. I'd suggest achieving this by limiting boosts from Command Processors to the pilots Squad. This limits the number of pilots that can be boosted by more than 1 module on a T3 to 10. I'd suggest that the role specific command ships be unaffected so they regain the role of boosters of choice in some situations.
That would ensure that a blob can use a T3 in FC, WC, and Squad roles if they like but if they intend to use T3 can only stack for 5-6 boosts, otherwise they must go for more scanable boosters which may prefer to stay on grid with the logistics. Gangs under 10 can use 1 x T3 booster for 3-4 boosts from a safe. |
Red lensman
BlackSky inc.
0
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Posted - 2012.08.23 23:45:00 -
[168] - Quote
The mining gang boosts need to have off grid boosting as a fleet of more than 5 mining barges really need to on more then 1 belt at the time as they mine to fast when we've had 10-20 barges mining we'd by clearing 3-6 belts at a time |
Jean Luc Retard
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2012.08.25 00:15:00 -
[169] - Quote
Large Collidable Object wrote:Diesel47 wrote:
You can make up all the stories you want, but nobody uses OGBs in RvB fleets. Seeing as all the fights are pre-arranged between the FCs. But that just shows how much you know... not much.
Also, post with your main or gtfo.
Telling me to post with my main whereas any recent killboard records of yours show RvB kills only whilst you continuously claim you need an OGB to keep soloing all those evil 0.0 blobs hunting you is slightly schizophrenic. It leaves room for two conclusions: Either, you're alt posting yourself or your stories about evening the odds vs. nullsec blobs are entirely made up. The fact that you're naive enough to believe nobody uses OGBs in RvB and your obvious display of lacking first hand experience in all your posts however leads me to believe you're not capable to comprehend even such simple logic and the latter conclusion is the correct one.
STFU -You know - not evryone posts his killmaisl all the time. |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy Caldari State
35
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Posted - 2012.08.25 01:03:00 -
[170] - Quote
If they're API'd they're posted automatically.
What's everyone's obsession with people posting under false names? Is the picture more important than the post contents? |
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Xolve
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1044
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Posted - 2012.08.25 09:09:00 -
[171] - Quote
Karah Serrigan wrote:Remove titan bridges then. How many people are using the titan on their main account and not just dual boxing it to bridge the fleet in? Unfair advantage is unfair. What, youre telling me people use it for logistics too? Lets make them suffer because one group uses it to blob small gangs.
+1
Actually let's nerf everything into the ground that doesn't suit the needs and wants of one specific group players in Low-Sec participating in Faction Warfare. The game is bigger than you people, stop being so self-centered.
It's not hard to probe down and ritually slaughter boosting alts, most of them are terrible, and most boosting alt owning pilots don't pay attention at all to that second screen once the fighting starts. Want a counter to boosting alts? It's called a distraction, figure out how to do it. Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
Cyrek Ohaya
Perkone Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2012.08.25 09:09:00 -
[172] - Quote
Small gangs cry over blobs, but beginning players cry because they can't even have a fair attempt on quad boosted small gangs. Small gangs only want to scapegoat blobs so they can be much superior to casual solo pvpers. |
Xolve
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1044
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Posted - 2012.08.25 09:11:00 -
[173] - Quote
Jean Luc ****** wrote:STFU -You know - not evryone posts his killmaisl all the time.
No you- kill mails prove literally nothing.
Kill mails are not an indication of anything other than this person, showed up in this system, and pushed F1; This is what the victim was flying.
Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
Nicaragua
SkREW CREW Local Down
23
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Posted - 2012.08.25 10:12:00 -
[174] - Quote
Xolve wrote: It's not hard to probe down and ritually slaughter boosting alts, most of them are terrible, and most boosting alt owning pilots don't pay attention at all to that second screen once the fighting starts. Want a counter to boosting alts? It's called a distraction, figure out how to do it.
What you have summed up here is exactly what is wrong with off grid boosting alts.
EVE is a game, it is supposed to be played by people who are at the controls of the game. Boosting in itself is fine but that should be done by someone who is playing and is involved in the game not someone who is not in the vicinity of the gang they are boosting.
As you state its not particularly hard to find careless boosting alts because they aren't actually playing the game, and that is just completely stupid. There is no tactic, no risk vs reward, just a minimized EVE client running out of sight with a few modules active - and that is tragic for a game that prides itself on the depth of its strategy.
This mechanic is completely bollocksed so the solution is to remove off grid boosting. Forcing the booster to be on grid increases the risk and means that there will actually have to be a real player behind the controls - surely this is the way the game is meant to be played, you know with actual players n stuff ? |
Xolve
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1045
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Posted - 2012.08.25 10:24:00 -
[175] - Quote
Nicaragua wrote:As you state its not particularly hard to find careless boosting alts because they aren't actually playing the game, and that is just completely stupid. There is no tactic, no risk vs reward, just a minimized EVE client running out of sight with a few modules active - and that is tragic for a game that prides itself on the depth of its strategy.
This mechanic is completely bollocksed so the solution is to remove off grid boosting. Forcing the booster to be on grid increases the risk and means that there will actually have to be a real player behind the controls - surely this is the way the game is meant to be played, you know with actual players n stuff ?
So in order to fix it, CCP should make it so you can only log into one account at a time then? Right?
That will fix all the things! Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
Nicaragua
SkREW CREW Local Down
23
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Posted - 2012.08.25 10:28:00 -
[176] - Quote
Xolve wrote:So in order to fix it, CCP should make it so you can only log into one account at a time then? Right?
That will fix all the things!
I already posted what the fix is, in fact this entire thread is debating that very fix so why don't you do a bit of reading to catch up with the rest of us instead of trying to be a smart arse.
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Xolve
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1045
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Posted - 2012.08.25 10:32:00 -
[177] - Quote
Nicaragua wrote:
I already posted what the fix is, in fact this entire thread is debating that very fix so why don't you do a bit of reading to catch up with the rest of us instead of trying to be a smart arse.
I too post fixes to things that havn't yet/won't happen.
The only thing of merit you have said in this thread is offgrid boosting is bullshit, to which I say 'deal with it'. Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
Nicaragua
SkREW CREW Local Down
24
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Posted - 2012.08.25 13:18:00 -
[178] - Quote
Xolve wrote: I too post fixes to things that havn't yet/won't happen.
The only thing of merit you have said in this thread is offgrid boosting is bullshit, to which I say 'deal with it'.
I'm wounded by your harsh words, i really am.
Nonetheless - I don't need to "deal with it", it appears CCP are going to deal with it for me. And again, that's captured within the title and opening post of this thread, so as before - do a little bit of reading beforehand and then maybe you'll be able to contribute something useful to the topic.
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Xolve
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1045
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Posted - 2012.08.25 14:22:00 -
[179] - Quote
Nicaragua wrote:Nonetheless - I don't need to "deal with it", it appears CCP are going to deal with it for me. And again, that's captured within the title and opening post of this thread, so as before - do a little bit of reading beforehand and then maybe you'll be able to contribute something useful to the topic.
CSM Minutes =/= dev Blog, HTH. Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
2manno Asp
The Imperial Fedaykin
17
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Posted - 2012.08.25 15:56:00 -
[180] - Quote
keeping off grid boosting seems ok to me too, assuming it's outside a POS, mainly because having them on grid seems a bit too cumbersome and clumsy. especially for dual-boxers which are so many of them.
however, i feel it's still a bit too removed.
my proposal is to tweak the OP's suggestion a bit.
1. create a "link" command between a booster and a pilot 2. when linked, the booster will always warp with the linked pilot and land at a random spot within a sphere between 1 and 2 AUs of the pilot, and no closer than 1 AU from a celestial (requires a bit of geometry to ensure this).
this means if there's a booster boosting the pilot/fleet you're fighting, 1. you will know your enemy is boosted when they land, becuase the booster will be on DSCAN, unless your DSCAN is set to less than 1 AU. 2. you have a good idea where it is, always within 1-2 AUs from you
this makes the booster significantly easier to scan, thus riskier for the booster, and definately more interesting for everyone.
now i can't predict how it all turns out... but i sort of imagine any fleet that has a booster(s), may now have to deal with a fleet(s) that have scanner(s) as the counter, else lose the booster, or put the booster on grid in the hopes of being better able to defend it there. choice is yours.
btw, the booster will still have an edge, in that the scanner still has to scan it down, then warp to it, etc. this allows the booster to have some temporary affect, but not necessarily a dominating or lasting one. also, some interesting fleet tactics may develop based on the limitations of the booster link and known proximity to battle. |
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