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Spizznic
State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.12.12 16:04:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Spizznic on 12/12/2010 16:14:27 So today I was messing around with PI, and ran some numbers. I finally got the product from a 5 hour run cycle and got my base numbers.
(EXT) = Extractor 1 (EXT) = 15 minute cycle time 1 (EXT) reservoir depletes in 5 hours 1 (EXT) = 1,000 units per 15 minutes 1 (EXT) = 4,000 units per 1 hour 15 (EXT) = 60,000 units per 1 hour 15 (EXT) = 300,000 units per 5 hours
If done 3 times per day... (300,000) x (3 runs) = 900,000 units per day 1 Unit = 4.99 ISK (Current sell price) (900,000 units) x (4.99) = 4,491,000 ISK per day (we will say 4.5m ISK for simplicity) (4.5m) x (30 days) = 134,730,000 ISK per month
I am capable of 4 planets currently, so that would be... (135m) x (4 planets) = 540,000,000 ISK per month
A little deeper by running 3 characters on 1 account like this... (540m) x (3 characters) = 1,620,000,000 ISK per month
I've looked at the market data, and 150,000 units per day actually move, so it's a bit skeptical. But working with different markets would compensate for that.
CORRECTION: 150 million plus product moved per day...big error on that part! No need for working with different markets.
Can this be right, though? This is, of course, saying all of the product were moved each month.
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Greg Huff
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Posted - 2010.12.12 16:21:00 -
[2]
Yes, that absolutely can be right.
Prices fluctuate, and with the upcoming PI changes they will go through a major shift. With adding the ability to queue extraction cycles you will likely see a supply/demand shift in the market as well.
Build your setup, make your cash grab, and be prepared to revamp your strategy in the near future.
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Carniflex
StarHunt R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.12 16:29:00 -
[3]
Sounds about correct.
However in my opinion the reward does not justify doing such a slave labor for so meager return. Thats a mindnumbing amount of clicks. Plus you should look into the bulk of that stuff ;) That a lot of cubic meters to be moved to the markets.
In it's current form PI as 'good' idea for a player to do as is ice mining. At least the material extraction part. I'm sure there are some real people out there mining ice as well although if I would need to speculate I would say they are minority.
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Spizznic
State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.12.12 16:40:00 -
[4]
Thank you for the quick answers. Yes, it is a lot of product to be moved, but I don't think it would be too horrible. So far, it's taken me about 10 minutes each 5 hour cycle, to do each planet, and it's been working out good. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't thinking crazy or anything like that.
I've become bored with missions, 0.0 corps don't interest me, I just want to hang out and relax. This seems like a good thing for me. Thanks again!
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Brian Ballsack
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Posted - 2010.12.12 19:30:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Carniflex Sounds about correct.
However in my opinion the reward does not justify doing such a slave labor for so meager return. Thats a mindnumbing amount of clicks. Plus you should look into the bulk of that stuff ;) That a lot of cubic meters to be moved to the markets.
In it's current form PI as 'good' idea for a player to do as is ice mining. At least the material extraction part. I'm sure there are some real people out there mining ice as well although if I would need to speculate I would say they are minority.
Totally disagree, one acount, three chars, can net you 3 billion a week. half an hour tops each day, Its not really that much clicking, if i were to earn via any other playstyle it would still be a hell of alot of clicking. PI is very much worth doing, its a decent income, with minimal effort, nothing like mining ice lol.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.12.12 23:38:00 -
[6]
what happens if you build something a bit more complex from that extracted material?
and can the market support you dropping 540million units/month
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Lord FunkyMunky
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Posted - 2010.12.12 23:57:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton what happens if you build something a bit more complex from that extracted material?
and can the market support you dropping 540million units/month
TADA and there it is the real reason this would eventually fail or atleast crash price wise.
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Kanatta Jing
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Posted - 2010.12.13 01:43:00 -
[8]
The PI material markets are made of tissue paper and crumble at the merest touch of maximized production.
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Nathan Grey
Gallente Aurora Macrotechnology
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Posted - 2010.12.13 04:43:00 -
[9]
I believe your 5 isk p/u number is absurd, and question that you would be able to sustain the specified pull rate without 'overloading' the planet. 5 isk/u would wind up creating Refined Products at a 15k price point, rather than the 200-600 price points that I'm observing around Rens. Try 0.2 isk/u as a sale price (ignoring any import/export costs).
I also believe that the biggest benefit of PI is to provide resources strategically, namely POS fuels and T2 production inputs. The top-end starbase module construction can be valuable, but until a corporation leverages solid organization to mass-produce starbase modules in 0.0 (Curse/Venal/Catch?), I think it will be underutilized.
(I can see some benefit to market-building starbase parts in or near 0.0)
IMO, ~1-4M/day/planet is more realistic for chains that start with extractors. ----------------------------------
Industrialist. I build it. You buy it. You break it and buy another one. Market domination through ingue ferrogue. (I did this and could have stopped it.) |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2010.12.13 05:46:00 -
[10]
I see no P0 in Jita that is traded 150m units a day selling at 4.99 isk per unit. You need to look at market average price and how much is traded in a week. Sure base metals is up to 5 isk a unit but some days it trades at 2.63 with 135m units traded and sometimes at 2.5 with 16m units traded. Base metals were also trading for 1.5 isk a unit only 1 month ago so I really wouldn't think that I could get 4.99 for base metals, for example.
Also 900k P0 x 4 planets = 3.6m units = 36,000 m3 to haul everyday. Which you will need to do everyday or else your single launchpad will overflow. If you are in low sec or 0.0 or a wormhole then ahahah good luck hauling all of that. If you are in high sec, which I highly doubt giving the numbers you presented, then have fun resetting the extractors on 5 hour cycles. It is possible that you will not burn out before the PI changes but who knows.
So yeah if you can do the hauling without wasting a ton of time, you should definitely do it. If it takes you nearly an hour to reset extractors and haul stuff and set up orders then that's great for a new player but most vets will laugh at 10m/hr that you can only do once a day. - It's not "Play through a pre-set story, become stronger, do endgame". Gameplay is open ended, and you make your own story. Unless you're too afraid of 'pvp grief' to do anything relevant |
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Nefrums
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Posted - 2010.12.13 08:04:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Kanatta Jing The PI material markets are made of tissue paper and crumble at the merest touch of maximized production.
This is true. I managed to crash the market of a p4 item all by myself by making 1080 units / 72 hours, for a few weeks.
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Greg Huff
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Posted - 2010.12.13 11:30:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Vaal Erit If you are in high sec, which I highly doubt giving the numbers you presented, then have fun resetting the extractors on 5 hour cycles. It is possible that you will not burn out before the PI changes but who knows.
He already stated he was running 5hr cycles at 1k/cycle. I have a set of high-sec planets all running 5hr cycles with amounts running from ~650 to ~1250 per cycle. Burnout is certainly an individual thing, I've been running 5hr cycles since PI started.
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Savoian
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Posted - 2010.12.13 12:05:00 -
[13]
I strongly advise you NOT to do that with 3 toons and 5 planets per toon, as you would just spend your life clicking clicking and clicking again to keep production up. That is called "job", it should not be done in a PC game, and is usually rewarded with real money and not isk.
Sav
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Sixtina KL
The Shoop Group
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Posted - 2010.12.13 12:25:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Savoian I strongly advise you NOT to do that with 3 toons and 5 planets per toon, as you would just spend your life clicking clicking and clicking again to keep production up. That is called "Farmville".
Sav
Fixed. __________________________________
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Gillaboo
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Posted - 2010.12.13 12:52:00 -
[15]
While I appreciate the vast income potential of PI materials, even as a mere reseller rather than as a producer with "x" number of planets under my finger, PI is like any other part of the game insomuch as each player must decide for him/herself: "Is it worth my time?".
The OP's numbers are solid, as is the strategy of cross-region markets...all it comes down to is choosing how you like to play EvE.
YMMV.
-------------------------------------------------------- This space For Rent. |
Aphrodite Skripalle
Galactic Defence Consortium
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Posted - 2010.12.13 15:35:00 -
[16]
Its not a job, if you have the right tools which are doing the job for you. Thats the stuff people like to call bots or makros.
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Berikath
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Posted - 2010.12.13 16:04:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Spizznic
A little deeper by running 3 characters on 1 account like this... (540m) x (3 characters) = 1,620,000,000 ISK per month
I've looked at the market data, and 150,000 units per day actually move, so it's a bit skeptical. But working with different markets would compensate for that.
One thing to keep in mind with that....
You're talking about 36,000 m3 of product created, every day.
Presumably you're doing this in 0.0 or a WH to get those yields, that's a lot of stuff to move. If so, that's either a LOT of hauling in an industrial, or significant cuts into your profit in terms of fuel costs. If you really want to get into it, I would suggest considering processing at least through BIFs to P1 (75% reduction in volume). Even if you make less, it's a much smaller headache to move the stuff. *** Wish list for PI:
*One-click input routing *Copy product, inputs & outputs in factories *Launchpad upgrades: twice the space, twice the cost, half the hassle! |
Greg Huff
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Posted - 2010.12.13 17:07:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Berikath Presumably you're doing this in 0.0 or a WH to get those yields...
NO. Read his calculations. It's based on 1k/cycle at 15m/5h cycles... that's high-sec. WH would produce in the 3k/cycle range.
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Berikath
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Posted - 2010.12.13 17:29:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Greg Huff
Originally by: Berikath Presumably you're doing this in 0.0 or a WH to get those yields...
NO. Read his calculations. It's based on 1k/cycle at 15m/5h cycles... that's high-sec. WH would produce in the 3k/cycle range.
Well, shows you how much I have done with extraction. More of a factory planet man myself. I just kind of assumed 'cuz the profit sounded toward the high end for extraction.
So fuel costs aren't an issue, but hauling time still would be (though if you have a freighter, I guess less so than in low/0.0). Personally, I would still process to P1 though, just for the reduced headache. *** Wish list for PI:
*One-click input routing *Copy product, inputs & outputs in factories *Launchpad upgrades: twice the space, twice the cost, half the hassle! |
Devil tiger
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Posted - 2010.12.13 17:35:00 -
[20]
also 36K really isn't that much to haul. A single Mammoth/itty V can hold around 40k even a 100k isn't much of a trouble. So what's the big deal in taking the indie back and forth once or twice a day in High sec?
If it were something like 360K it would be much (2-3 trips with a freighter).
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Zaerlorth Maelkor
The Maverick Navy IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.13 17:42:00 -
[21]
As others have pointed out, you will very quickly saturate the market for P0 if you dump this amount of materials into it.
Extract different stuff, process it and build various P2, P3 or even P4. Less hauling, more interesting and it won't crash the market. However, you might want to consider a few things, first of all; I now have one of those annoying sigs. second; you should probably move on to some more interesting things than reading this sig.
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Berikath
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Posted - 2010.12.13 18:36:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Devil tiger also 36K really isn't that much to haul. A single Mammoth/itty V can hold around 40k even a 100k isn't much of a trouble. So what's the big deal in taking the indie back and forth once or twice a day in High sec?
If it were something like 360K it would be much (2-3 trips with a freighter).
Say that after doing it every day for 2 months.
Also, keep in mind you'd have to be hauling this to market- going to 5 planets daily then 6 jumps each way to a market hub takes significantly longer, hence the comment about the freighter. *** Wish list for PI:
*One-click input routing *Copy product, inputs & outputs in factories *Launchpad upgrades: twice the space, twice the cost, half the hassle! |
Savoian
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Posted - 2010.12.14 11:24:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Aphrodite Skripalle Its not a job, if you have the right tools which are doing the job for you. Thats the stuff people like to call bots or makros.
... which are not allowed if I well understood the EULA.
Sav
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Carniflex
StarHunt R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.14 12:20:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Savoian
Originally by: Aphrodite Skripalle Its not a job, if you have the right tools which are doing the job for you. Thats the stuff people like to call bots or makros.
... which are not allowed if I well understood the EULA.
Sav
I can confirm this statement as I petitioned and asked it. Anything that can automatically refresh the PI cykle is not legal in EVE and will get you banned if they sniff you out. I was asking if mouse driver that can record mouse movements is legal for refreshing the PI cykle. Was kinda gray area in my opinion as crappy design of PI means that pixels you need to click are always in the same place.
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Berikath
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Posted - 2010.12.14 14:30:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Carniflex
I can confirm this statement as I petitioned and asked it. Anything that can automatically refresh the PI cykle is not legal in EVE and will get you banned if they sniff you out. I was asking if mouse driver that can record mouse movements is legal for refreshing the PI cykle. Was kinda gray area in my opinion as crappy design of PI means that pixels you need to click are always in the same place.
1. Cycle. Maybe it's just me, but that's REALLY distracting.
2. Being designed in a way easily exploited by "cheating" doesn't make it any less "cheating". That's kinda like saying "stealing from that store was kind of a gray area for me, cuz the crappy design of leaving their merchandise outside with no one watching it is great for shoplifting". *** Wish list for PI:
*One-click input routing *Copy product, inputs & outputs in factories *Launchpad upgrades: twice the space, twice the cost, half the hassle! |
BolsterBomb
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Posted - 2010.12.14 15:51:00 -
[26]
Your math is right but good luck selling it. I started mining R0 with this same mindset. You'll learn just give it time.
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Toku Jiang
Jiang Laboratories and Discovery
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Posted - 2010.12.14 20:24:00 -
[27]
I make about 100-120 million isk a month doing PI "casually". That is to say I set the extractors to run 4 day cycles and only empty them that often. I have 2 characters, 5 planets on 1 6 planets to the other. I manufacture POS fuels (minus oxygen) and then sell them at the end of the month. This only requires me to check my PI setups every 4 days and then haul out the finished products once per month which easily fit in 2 Itty V's.
If someone really really wanted to work at it they could most likely pull more money out of it provided they are pulling the right materials, but I think your expectations of a steady flow of 1.6 billion per month is a little much unless you plan on playing every single day and working your mouse until the buttons fall off. |
Kanatta Jing
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Posted - 2010.12.15 04:31:00 -
[28]
Originally by: BolsterBomb Your math is right but good luck selling it. I started mining R0 with this same mindset. You'll learn just give it time.
Ya P0 can only be used for one thing and thats to make a P1 of one certain type. I don't think you can find a vibrant market for it.
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Fulbert
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.15 12:59:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Spizznic Can this be right, though? This is, of course, saying all of the product were moved each month.
Restarting 15 extractors 3 times a day will drive you insane after 3 days. It's even more boring and mindless than astroid or ice mining. If you include hauling, this would require as much time as classic astroid mining in a Hulk. -------------------------------- Fulbert. Miner - Industrialist |
Raindeth
FACTION Inc. Irrelevant.
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Posted - 2010.12.15 13:54:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Nathan Grey 5 isk/u would wind up creating Refined Products at a 15k price point, rather than the 200-600 price points that I'm observing around Rens. Try 0.2 isk/u as a sale price (ignoring any import/export costs).
Uh, no.
5 isk p/u would mean a 750 price point for P1. 3000 p0 = 20 P1. The ratio is 150:1, not 3000:1
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