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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.12.29 17:49:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Bronomanon Think about what you are typing. I don't believe removing a set of skills from a game has ever been a marketing tactic. See it advertised anywhere? No. What it will do is encourage new players to stay. Learning skills were always a waste of time and a big turn off to new players.
Possibly.
The main question is, how long will it take for the average EVE player that lobbied for removal of the learning skills without really thinking about it much to realize they were played by people that had ulterior motives.
It's never easy to recognize that you were used as someone elses tool is it... ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Archbeholder
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Posted - 2010.12.29 17:52:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Ranger 1 Possibly.
The main question is, how long will it take for the average EVE player that lobbied for removal of the learning skills without really thinking about it much to realize they were played by people that had ulterior motives.
It's never easy to recognize that you were used as someone elses tool is it...
I bet YOU've lost a freaking fortune on it. Now that tide of 'casuals' will overwhelm your beloved sandbox and you can no longer claim to be hardcore.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.12.29 18:05:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Archbeholder
Originally by: Ranger 1 Possibly.
The main question is, how long will it take for the average EVE player that lobbied for removal of the learning skills without really thinking about it much to realize they were played by people that had ulterior motives.
It's never easy to recognize that you were used as someone elses tool is it...
I bet YOU've lost a freaking fortune on it. Now that tide of 'casuals' will overwhelm your beloved sandbox and you can no longer claim to be hardcore.
The more players the better sweetcheeks, they aren't the issue.
It's not the new players that will be using the new way of doing things to their extreme advantage.
If a more intelligent mechanic than "boost everyones attributes" had been employed I'd have no issue with this at all.
Then again, if another mechanic that involved thinking or time had been implemented in some entertaining fashion, there would not have been nearly as much support and lobbying for the change.
Wonder why that is? Think about it a bit, I'm sure a few things will occur to you.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Archbeholder
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Posted - 2010.12.29 18:12:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Ranger 1
If a more intelligent mechanic than "boost everyones attributes" had been employed I'd have no issue with this at all.
Then again, if another mechanic that involved thinking or time had been implemented in some entertaining fashion, there would not have been nearly as much support and lobbying for the change.
Wonder why that is? Think about it a bit, I'm sure a few things will occur to you.
Anything beats "learning skills so you can learn skills". It might sound like a shoker, but games are actually supposed to be fun. Now when new players try to play EVE and the first thing they hear "first you need to train learning skills for a couple of month" that doesnt really make them excited as opposed to getting into action instantly like other games provide. Now you may shake your fist at those pesky 'casuals'. But think about this, what if EVE had 12mil subscribers, what could those money be used on.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.12.29 18:14:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 29/12/2010 18:14:51
Originally by: Archbeholder
Originally by: Ranger 1
If a more intelligent mechanic than "boost everyones attributes" had been employed I'd have no issue with this at all.
Then again, if another mechanic that involved thinking or time had been implemented in some entertaining fashion, there would not have been nearly as much support and lobbying for the change.
Wonder why that is? Think about it a bit, I'm sure a few things will occur to you.
Anything beats "learning skills so you can learn skills". It might sound like a shoker, but games are actually supposed to be fun. Now when new players try to play EVE and the first thing they hear "first you need to train learning skills for a couple of month" that doesnt really make them excited as opposed to getting into action instantly like other games provide. Now you may shake your fist at those pesky 'casuals'. But think about this, what if EVE had 12mil subscribers, what could those money be used on.
If you actually want to discuss this, you're going to have to actually read and understand the posts you're responding to. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Hauling Hal
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Posted - 2010.12.29 18:28:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Sadian I mean the ones that were supposed to be flocking to the game once learning skills were so disgracefully eliminated. Are all those new players still playing Wow? Are they on Christmas vacation? Were all the learning skill removal supporters lying/clueless about one of their base reasons for justifiying what was basically a gargantuan attribute increase as a reward for whining? I'm confused.
Which is the starter systems have you been to in order to make this statement?
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Lindelwin
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Posted - 2010.12.29 18:37:00 -
[37]
I'm new. Got a couple friends to try that are new as well.
I didn't know about the learning skill changes until after I started the trial but as a new player I think the changes are good. Starting in a game and then needing to "learn to learn" or train meta skills for a couple months just to start training the skills you want was kind of un-fun.
I know you can choose not to train learning but their existence made new players have to ponder their entire EVE career from day one instead of just playing the game. If you don't train learning first then you are loosing out in the long haul, if you do then you have lots of training time used up as a noob not doing what you really want to do.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2010.12.29 18:38:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Bronomanon Think about what you are typing. I don't believe removing a set of skills from a game has ever been a marketing tactic. See it advertised anywhere? No. What it will do is encourage new players to stay. Learning skills were always a waste of time and a big turn off to new players.
The much predictable problem is that these new players will now find something else to blame for their dissatisfaction with EVE, instead of just leaving. The learning skills did a good job of filtering out these people, who would feel more at home playing something more mainstream. The result is a more dumbed down game and more whine topics in the forums about the next 'newbie unfriendly' game mechanic that needs to be changed. The bitter vets with ulterior motives will join in the whine. ...
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire
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Posted - 2010.12.29 19:06:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Razin
The much predictable problem is that these new players will now find something else to blame for their dissatisfaction with EVE, instead of just leaving. The learning skills did a good job of filtering out these people, who would feel more at home playing something more mainstream. The result is a more dumbed down game and more whine topics in the forums about the next 'newbie unfriendly' game mechanic that needs to be changed. The bitter vets with ulterior motives will join in the whine.
But how do you plan to bathe in tears? Whine fuels CCP's hamster cells!
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Mina Hiragi
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2010.12.29 19:08:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Razin The much predictable problem is that these new players will now find something else to blame for their dissatisfaction with EVE, instead of just leaving.
I bid three hundred quatloos on, "But I can't do anything fun, my implants!"
(I'm guilty of this and I'm not even new. ) |
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Masta Gunna
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Posted - 2010.12.29 19:23:00 -
[41]
Hello o/
I returned because of the removal of dumb skills.
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2010.12.29 19:28:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Kattshiro Be more about retaining new players than "getting" them.
Yup. Incarca is going to be the n00b attractor expansion. All the changes up till then are designed to keep them once they upgrade their trial to a full sub. Which is a great thing to me as eve seems to be suffereing from the too many chiefs and not enough indians syndrome. We need more herdlike willing followers and not even more aggressive arsehats as we already have a full plate of them in pretty much every corp.
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Jennifer Starling
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.12.29 20:08:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Razin The much predictable problem is that these new players will now find something else to blame for their dissatisfaction with EVE, instead of just leaving. The learning skills did a good job of filtering out these people, who would feel more at home playing something more mainstream. The result is a more dumbed down game and more whine topics in the forums about the next 'newbie unfriendly' game mechanic that needs to be changed. The bitter vets with ulterior motives will join in the whine.
EVE will never be the perfect game for everyone. There's too much inherent contradictions that are probably here to stay will keep on annoying people: - Suicide ganks being insured - Botters/Macros - Podding is losing your implants - Highsec wardecs - Blob Lag (this will probably never be fixed) - The fixed training speed - Subpar mission content - (new) remake your characters while bloodline options have changed dramatically - Imbalance between weapon systems - Scammers
And so on.
But at least the vast majority of the playerbase and CCP decided that learning skills were a bad idea and didn't add to the game (in spite of some people who loved them). Which can't be said about all of the abvovementioned mechanics, even though people will leave EVE because of them.
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Mess Enger
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Posted - 2010.12.29 20:41:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Mina Hiragi
Originally by: Razin The much predictable problem is that these new players will now find something else to blame for their dissatisfaction with EVE, instead of just leaving.
I bid three hundred quatloos on, "But I can't do anything fun, my implants!"
(I'm guilty of this and I'm not even new. )
The only players blaming EVE and doom-speaking actually are the "vets". Check forums.
I'm new too btw and I'm loving EVE so far. |
Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2010.12.29 21:58:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Razin on 29/12/2010 21:58:31
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
EVE will never be the perfect game for everyone. There's too much inherent contradictions that are probably here to stay will keep on annoying people: - Suicide ganks being insured - Botters/Macros - Podding is losing your implants - Highsec wardecs - Blob Lag (this will probably never be fixed) - The fixed training speed - Subpar mission content - (new) remake your characters while bloodline options have changed dramatically - Imbalance between weapon systems - Scammers
And so on.
You look a bit confused lumping into the same list some of EVE's more distinctive features, bugs, cheats, hardware/software limitations, and gameplay simplifications.
Originally by: Jennifer Starling But at least the vast majority of the playerbase and CCP decided that learning skills were a bad idea and didn't add to the game (in spite of some people who loved them). Which can't be said about all of the abvovementioned mechanics, even though people will leave EVE because of them.
The 'majority likes it' argument is unimpressive. EVE is such a gem in the MMO world in spite of it. ...
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Syn Callibri
Minmatar 21st Eridani Lighthorse Broken Chains Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.29 22:03:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Razin The 'majority likes it' argument is unimpressive. EVE is such a gem in the MMO world in spite of it.
Unimpressive yes, but true.
Commander Tac-Ops |
Onictus
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Posted - 2010.12.29 22:17:00 -
[47]
New player here .......I was thrilled about the removal of learning skills.
Not doing anything but flying a frigate training training was kinda silly to me.
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Jennifer Starling
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.12.29 22:28:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 29/12/2010 22:35:14
Originally by: Razin You look a bit confused lumping into the same list some of EVE's more distinctive features, bugs, cheats, hardware/software limitations, and gameplay simplifications.
I'm not confused at all, I'm listing things that cause people to quit EVE, be it distinctive features, bugs, cheats or hardware/software limitations.
Gameplay simplifications aren't bad per sT, we had people being happy with the simplification of how probes worked, we have people happy with the simplification of PI. In a way adding distictive symbols to faction and deadspace stuff is also a simplification, as is showing the meta level and volume of stuff. Or adding faction stuff to the market. Introducing the skillqueue so people didn't have to set the alarmclock to add a skill at 3 AM was also a simplification. As was the equalizing of the starter skills for races and bloodlines.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2010.12.29 23:16:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Syn Callibri
Originally by: Razin The 'majority likes it' argument is unimpressive. EVE is such a gem in the MMO world in spite of it.
Unimpressive yes, but true.
It may (or may not) be true, but it is not an argument. Especially within the context of EVE that was never about winning a popularity contest.
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
I'm not confused at all, I'm listing things that cause people to quit EVE, be it distinctive features, bugs, cheats or hardware/software limitations.
I must have misunderstood when you called all of those items "inherent contradictions".
I do agree with your general thought however, and that was kinda the focus of my original post. The danger here is to have that vocal group gradually ruin the rest of the game if CCP keeps giving in to the 'majority likes it' type of argumentation. ...
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Jennifer Starling
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.12.30 00:22:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Razin The 'majority likes it' argument is unimpressive. EVE is such a gem in the MMO world in spite of it.
Well if CCP and the playerbase both want the same change, I'd say it can't be that bad?
Originally by: Razin I must have misunderstood when you called all of those items "inherent contradictions".
I do agree with your general thought however, and that was kinda the focus of my original post. The danger here is to have that vocal group gradually ruin the rest of the game if CCP keeps giving in to the 'majority likes it' type of argumentation.
Well a lot of those things contain some contradiction. Insurance for suiciders isn't logical, no realistic insurance company would pay for that. Highsec wardecs may cause some unease because high security isn't as secure as people expected it to be. Fleet lag is contradicting the 'mass fleet warfare' advertisement.
EVE is just something you have to get used to, things are different than in any other game you played; in some cases I agree with it and in other cases I don't. I think there should be a good starter guide or more extensive tutorial that points newbs to the most important differences. Not because things necessarily wrong but to get their expectations more realistic so they're at least prepared and won't leave disappointed.
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Archbeholder
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Posted - 2010.12.30 03:39:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
EVE will never be the perfect game for everyone. There's too much inherent contradictions that are probably here to stay will keep on annoying people: - Suicide ganks being insured - Botters/Macros - Podding is losing your implants - Highsec wardecs - Blob Lag (this will probably never be fixed) - The fixed training speed - Subpar mission content - (new) remake your characters while bloodline options have changed dramatically - Imbalance between weapon systems - Scammers
And so on.
But at least the vast majority of the playerbase and CCP decided that learning skills were a bad idea and didn't add to the game (in spite of some people who loved them). Which can't be said about all of the abvovementioned mechanics, even though people will leave EVE because of them.
I agree with every point mentioned. Should we suffer because of these design flaws so that few masochists can claim that they are 'elite', 'hardcore' and 'underground'?
If there was another spaceship mmo with the quality of WOW I'd switch in a heartbeat and so would many others.
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2010.12.30 06:19:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Sadian I mean the ones that were supposed to be flocking to the game once learning skills were so disgracefully eliminated.
I just expect more of the people who play the game to stick around.
People who've never played the game before won't flock to it on news about a game feature they don't know anything about being removed.
My Warmest Regards. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Anastasia Rigel
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Posted - 2010.12.30 09:28:00 -
[53]
Greetings Sadian, I'm one of these new characters that never will have to worry about learning skills.
Thanks for asking.
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Donny Maurasi
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Posted - 2010.12.30 09:40:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Sadian I mean the ones that were supposed to be flocking to the game once learning skills were so disgracefully eliminated. Are all those new players still playing Wow? Are they on Christmas vacation? Were all the learning skill removal supporters lying/clueless about one of their base reasons for justifiying what was basically a gargantuan attribute increase as a reward for whining? I'm confused.
U Mad?.. because you sound mad.
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Sadian
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Posted - 2011.01.15 17:05:00 -
[55]
I'm still waiting for them! I guess all the anti-learning skills supporters were wrong when they made that claim. Oh well. On a related note kudos to CCP for maintaining the server population stat with integrity and fortitude. I remember EQ hiding their player numbers early on even before Sony really started ruining the game. And the real reason for me posting again; What do you guys think the chances are of CCP admitting that removing learning skills was a mistake and re-implementing them?
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Anubis Xian
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.15 17:12:00 -
[56]
If they put Learning back in, I'm gone... forever.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
CINA
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Aeronwen Carys
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Posted - 2011.01.15 17:14:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Sadian I'm still waiting for them! I guess all the anti-learning skills supporters were wrong when they made that claim. Oh well. On a related note kudos to CCP for maintaining the server population stat with integrity and fortitude. I remember EQ hiding their player numbers early on even before Sony really started ruining the game. And the real reason for me posting again; What do you guys think the chances are of CCP admitting that removing learning skills was a mistake and re-implementing them?
Removing learning skills wasn't a mistake at all. Please show definitive proof as to why you think this is the case. Do you have figures to back up your claim? Perhaps a poll of a few thousand prospective EVE customers who decided NOT to sign up because some skills they didn't know about and most likely wouldn't have cared less about got removed?
Or how about signed statements from numerous players that have decided to abandon EVE purely because of the learning skill removal? Once these or any other concrete forms of evidence are provided Im sure the wider EVE community will be happy to take you seriously, instead of laughing at you.
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Joss56
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.01.15 18:14:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Joss56 on 15/01/2011 18:18:01
Originally by: Archbeholder If there was another spaceship mmo with the quality of WOW I'd switch in a heartbeat and so would many others.
+1 here
Some aspects of the game that are realy desapointing and waste easly the fun factor you can expect in any game:
Paranoid playersbase No tools to control griefing, you cand do whatever you want. No tools to control scamers or can games at starting systems. No tools for players to agree/not agree&have real impact in PC corps. No rules penalising PC corps No tools to keep players experience pleasent against FC's CEO's Promotion of "don't trust anybody and certainly not your best friend IG" Ships balancing according to pvp mass expectations: cruiser/bc's ->supercaps/titans Limited possibilities to create any maxed fighter/crafter character if you are not abble to plan over a few years
You don't have any control or possibility to play your game, you must play in the majority opinions, kind of game witch is pretty simple:
Gank anything in your overview, killmails and/or your wallet command how much you are interesting. Be the best grieffer possible. Ability to scam your own corpies and eventualy get out of your corp with all theyr assets.
These are the major negative points imo, but has the world goes and people are all different there are many other points of view.
But atm for me looks more like criminal actions promotion game.
________________________________________________
"You do realise you live on a globe, right? And that there places outside the USA/UK?"
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Quemist
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Posted - 2011.01.15 18:17:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Joss56
Originally by: Archbeholder If there was another spaceship mmo with the quality of WOW I'd switch in a heartbeat and so would many others.
+1 here
Some aspects of the game that are realy desapointing and waste easly the fun factor you can expect in any game:
Paranoid playersbase No tools to control griefing, you cand do whatever you want. No tools to control scamers or can games at starting systems. No tools for players to agree/not agree&have real impact in PC corps. No rules penalising PC corps No tools to keep players experience pleasent against FC's CEO's Promotion of "don't trust anybody and certainly not your best friend IG" Ships balancing according to pvp mass expectations: cruiser/bc's ->supercaps/titans Limited possibilities to create any maxed fighter/crafter character if you are not abble to plan over a few years
You don't have any control or possibility to play your game, you must play in the majority opinions, kind of game witch is pretty simple:
Gank anything in your overview, killmails and/or your wallet command how much you are interesting. Be the best grieffer possible. Ability to scam your own corpies and eventualy get out of your corp with all theyr assets.
These are the major negative points imo, but has the world goes and people are all different there are many other points of view.
Troll? This is the craziest thing I've ever read on the forums. Someone please explain to me! Right now!
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Captain Megadeath
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Posted - 2011.01.15 18:21:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Anubis Xian If they put Learning back in, I'm gone... forever.
Oh Shi..... CCP please don't bring back learning skills as Anubis Xi...... hold on, Who the F are you anyways?
But seriously, Learning skills were an OPTION that you could CHOOSE if you wanted to increase you learing attributes above base. You DIDN'T and were not FORCED to learn them. But hey now thanks to a few people and their man alt sockpuppets the lazy get the same bonus as those who worked for it.
In other news Anti-Learning sockpuppets now turn their sights on to nerfin' EvEs "Harsh Universe" policy and want "WoW in Space". More @ 6.
Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails my name actually is short for catherine
Yeah, Katie Door perhaps...... lol
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