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Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.04 23:18:00 -
[1]
OK, so you run missions for your favorite agent. Rack up the loyalty points then realize that some items (the ones that require isk + LP)can be purchased cheaper on the market than in the LP store even with the "reduced" loyalty point store price.
Defeats the purpose of getting "rewarded" by acquiring loyaty points doesnt it?
Loyalty point store prices should then be dynamic and reflect market trends.
Or is there something I'm missing?
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Roh Voleto
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Posted - 2011.06.04 23:36:00 -
[2]
+1
The LP stores need constant rebalancing. There are way too many "rewards" with a negative LP value.
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Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.04 23:53:00 -
[3]
Here's how the market works:
If there is more supply than demand, prices fall.
So stop farming for LP's and do something other than PvE for once in your EVE-lives.
HABIT
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2011.06.05 00:04:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 05/06/2011 00:05:16
Originally by: Roh Voleto +1
The LP stores need constant rebalancing. There are way too many "rewards" with a negative LP value.
The market already balances them naturally and that is why some offers are valued so low. Those corps are either heavily farmed, some of the people farming them have the "LPs I grind are free" -mentality or the store offer is just one alternative way of getting that item. Point being the price of the items are the correct ones and CCP fidling with LP costs will just cause the markets to adjust again making your new offers equally bad as the old ones.
A better solution to the issue is for you to do some basic market research about the LP store items to find the good offers or work for a less farmed corporation. Alternatively you can avoid doing either of those things and accept a bad LP to ISK conversion rate for your LPs.
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Roh Voleto
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Posted - 2011.06.05 00:09:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Roh Voleto on 05/06/2011 00:12:58
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Here's how the market works: ...
That's all nice and fine. The market is what sets the ISK value of any effort in EVE. Working with the market is what makes the difference between getting 300 and 3000 ISK per LP. The problem are a growing number of items which get you -3000 ISK/LP.
This is a sign of mudflation. You can not have a healthy in-game economy without compensating for it with game design.
Edit: Don't get me wrong. Reducing the LP rewards of missions would be a valid alternative, too.
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Jojin
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2011.06.05 00:16:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Jojin on 05/06/2011 00:16:22
Originally by: Roh Voleto Edited by: Roh Voleto on 05/06/2011 00:12:58
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Here's how the market works: ...
That's all nice and fine. The market is what sets the ISK value of any effort in EVE. Working with the market is what makes the difference between getting 300 and 3000 ISK per LP. The problem are a growing number of items which get you -3000 ISK/LP.
This is a sign of mudflation. You can not have a healthy in-game economy without compensating for it with game design.
Edit: Don't get me wrong. Reducing the LP rewards of missions would be a valid alternative, too.
There is nothing wrong with that. It just means you are creating more supply than the demand. Just like anything else in the game. If you create to much of an item, then eventually you will get a flood and the price will inverse.
LP are rewards for items. You already get direct ISK from doing the missions. But if you insist on just turning it all into cash, then look for consumable LP items like ammo.
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Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.05 00:17:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Here's how the market works:
If there is more supply than demand, prices fall.
So stop farming for LP's and do something other than PvE for once in your EVE-lives.
So what you are saying is stop playing a certain aspect of EVE(in this case mission running)in order to fix the market.
As a player, I dont believe that is my responsibility any more than me getting podded is CCP's.
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Cat o'Ninetails
Caldari Rancer Defence League
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Posted - 2011.06.05 00:19:00 -
[8]
it is not that bad lol, the main issue is unrelated to the issue you raised, you pointed out at least one issue, but really it has little relevence to the situation. i honestly look forwards to more of your words, but am not sure they are appropriate in this situation.
much <3 though
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Roh Voleto
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Posted - 2011.06.05 00:30:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Roh Voleto on 05/06/2011 00:30:59
Originally by: Atticus Fynch
So what you are saying is stop playing a certain aspect of EVE(in this case mission running)in order to fix the market.
That would be a valid answer in the real world. But it makes for bad game design when a large part of your player-base enjoys this particular part of your game, and your answer is punishing them for it. It would be much better to reduce the reward, or otherwise balance the rewards with the "natural" in-game economy.
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Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
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Posted - 2011.06.05 00:39:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Atticus Fynch So what you are saying is stop playing a certain aspect of EVE(in this case mission running)in order to fix the market.
As a player, I dont believe that is my responsibility any more than me getting podded is CCP's.
The problem here is that your mind is screwed, not market. Market is not something that CCP created, and is not something they want to control, aside certain key points, like PLEX. It is other players that want or not want to buy the items you are selling. -- Thanks CCP for cu |
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Shira Elan
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Posted - 2011.06.05 00:41:00 -
[11]
Yes, the thing you're missing is that the only relevant item you should care about is the one that gets the most ISK/LP.
They could remove the ISK charge and that would mean all items would be "profitable" but then Dr. E would lose one of his ISK sinks.
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Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.05 00:41:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: Atticus Fynch So what you are saying is stop playing a certain aspect of EVE(in this case mission running)in order to fix the market.
As a player, I dont believe that is my responsibility any more than me getting podded is CCP's.
The problem here is that your mind is screwed, not market. Market is not something that CCP created, and is not something they want to control, aside certain key points, like PLEX. It is other players that want or not want to buy the items you are selling.
Whe a "reward" feature of a game is no longer a reward, then it's broken. That is how I see it.
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Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
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Posted - 2011.06.05 00:45:00 -
[13]
You confusing terms "reward" and "profit". Reward you get for completed mission. When you are trying to make profit out of it by selling if through market, you're entering absolutely separate ground. And if you oversupply market with your offrers, market won't be able to absorb them. -- Thanks CCP for cu |
Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.05 00:48:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Tonto Auri You confusing terms "reward" and "profit". Reward you get for completed mission. When you are trying to make profit out of it by selling if through market, you're entering absolutely separate ground. And if you oversupply market with your offrers, market won't be able to absorb them.
Im not selling. I went to get an item at an LP store. Checked the market and found I could get it for much less and not use up any LP points in the process.
Granted, there are still good deals in LP stores, but some items are best bought on the market, or should just be removed from LP stores altogether.
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Roh Voleto
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Posted - 2011.06.05 01:05:00 -
[15]
This thread has reached my rumination threshold. So, let me repeat my argument one more time, before we risk to "agree to disagree", or do something else which would make me question my sexual orientation:
Negative LP conversion rates are a result of bad game design. They add complexity without offering depth.
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Cole Phelps
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.06.05 01:11:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Shira Elan They could remove the ISK charge and that would mean all items would be "profitable"...
This is actually what should be done. The point of a Loyalty Point store should be that your loyalty to that corporation should pay off. Otherwise they should rename the store and call the loyalty point-system something else. When an item is easier (less playing time invested) aquired simply by buying from the open market, the whole concept is broken.
And yes, off course all LP-store items should be profitable to sell. If not, the LP points you get from missions have no meaning/function.
In principle I agree with Atticus Fynch here, but I don't think CCP should make dynamic ISK and/or LP prices to try to compensate for the trends in the open market. Instead, remove the ISK cost of all items, and increase the LP cost. Then these items will always be a reward for the faithful mission-runner.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.05 01:15:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Roh Voleto Negative LP conversion rates are a result of bad game design. They add complexity without offering depth.
I would say that letting people destroy their own wealth is a hilarious and quite welcome addition of depth.
Sure, you COULD make it so LP shop items have auto-adjusting prices depending on market stats, but that is only valid for items where they CAN be sold on the market. How about items that can only be sold via contracts for now ? Do you propose to add a contract average value calculated (and why not, also displayed) ? Or maybe a contract price history ? Or maybe you simply wish all items to be tradeable via the market (frankly, I'd like that too, but that's not going to happen any time soon). What about the variable price then ? How do you propose the prices should vary then ? Should it be a typical NPC "between 90% and 110%" pathetically small variation ? Or should it hover wildly ? Which parts of it should be adjustable, the ISK, the LP or the "tags" cost too ? If only one, why not the rest ? If all of them, what's stopping some of those far less popular items from EVENTUALLY plummeting below even T1 item cost ? So you want some limits ? What exactly should those limits be ? And how exactly would they prevent the exact same scenario (of "negative LP conversion" from happening ?
While things could probably be better, they are not that bad right now. And you will never be able to protect all people from their own stupidity, so why the hell even bother. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Roh Voleto
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Posted - 2011.06.05 01:35:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Akita T
Or maybe you simply wish all items to be tradeable via the market (frankly, I'd like that too, but that's not going to happen any time soon).
Yes, I do.
Originally by: Akita T
I would say that letting people destroy their own wealth is a hilarious and quite welcome addition of depth.
It would be, and it would fit right in with the "cold and harsh" meme, if... I don't know... Agents would make you individual offers to "reward you" for your loyalty. It is nothing but tedium, however, if converting LP means making a spreadsheet for dozens of items, or risking money.
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Cole Phelps
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.06.05 01:40:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Cole Phelps And yes, off course all LP-store items should be profitable to sell. If not, the LP points you get from missions have no meaning/function.
No, they shouldn't. This would mean either completely eliminating some of the less popular items from the list, or reducing the prices of those items to such a degree to make it laughable. As long as even ONE item in the LP store can be resold at a profit, ANY profit, there is a point to the LP store. Sure, the reward might not be as big as you HOPED for, but that's a completely different story. You're already getting more than enough rewards from several different sources whenever you mission, that even if LPs would be nearly worthless, it still would not be such a big deal.
The point is that LP has to be something else than ISK. There is no point in having several currencies serving the same function. The point of LP, is that it puts a value on the time you have invested in doing missions for that specific corporation. ISK puts a value to any activity you've been doing to increase your wealth in the game. If items in the loyalty point store are supposed to be bought and sold off the open market as any other item in the game anyway, it's better to remove the LP all together and only give ISK and standing increase for doing missions. I'm not arguing for or against the "reward" system here, I'm just saying that there is no point to the LP currency if it is to be directly converted to ISK anyway. That's just doing things more complicated than necessary.
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Cole Phelps Instead, remove the ISK cost of all items, and increase the LP cost. Then these items will always be a reward for the faithful mission-runner.
So, you want to REMOVE yet another ISK sink ? One of the larger ones, I might add ? Do you like the idea of inflation so much ?
What are you talking about? I'm not saying that there should be done anything with the prices in the LP store, just that ISK cost should be converted to more LP cost. Is it anything such a change will do, it's certainly not increase inflation, as these items will be more tied to the act of running missions, and less to market specualtion than it is now.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.05 01:41:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Akita T on 05/06/2011 01:46:29
Originally by: Roh Voleto if... I don't know... Agents would make you individual offers to "reward you" for your loyalty.
That's how it used to work, and people cheered loudly when that crap was over and the LP shop put in place instead.
Quote: It is nothing but tedium, however, if converting LP means making a spreadsheet for dozens of items, or risking money.
Because getting the LP in the first place is not tedious at all? And because eyeballing the markets for a very rough LP conversion rate of the items you are about to click to purchase is really so much work ?
Originally by: Cole Phelps I'm not arguing for or against the "reward" system here, I'm just saying that there is no point to the LP currency if it is to be directly converted to ISK anyway.
So now all of a sudden you no longer care about conversion rate, or what else are you saying ? There are plenty of items that can only be obtained from an LP store. Nobody forces you to buy +X learning implants, for instance.
Quote: What are you talking about? I'm not saying that there should be done anything with the prices in the LP store, just that ISK cost should be converted to more LP cost.Is it anything such a change will do, it's certainly not increase inflation
The LP shop "eats up" both LP and ISK. The ISK you pay to the LP shop is destroyed. The LP shop is an ISK sink. Right now, there are very few ISK sinks left in the game, and the LP shop is one of the larger ones, total ISK volume speaking. Reducing the ISK cost of items in the LP shop reduces the magnitude of an ISK sink. Removing the ISK cost altogether removes the ISK sink altogether. Less of an ISK sink -> more ISK -> inflation. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.05 01:56:00 -
[21]
You are missing the fact that the market is based off of supply and demand. If the supply is very high (and the desire to sell is also high), it can push the price of an item below its production cost. Furthermore, some people in the market have superior methods of manufacture - such as purchasing BPCs from the LP store with LP, tags, and ISK. This provides a better deal in the end, and can push the prices below the "ISK+LP" offers for raw modules/ships.
I think there's a couple of problems with LP stores, but far and away the most egregious one is that frigate and cruiser modules require huge amounts of tags. These tags have an NPC buy order price, and that puts an effective limit on how cheaply someone can sell the LP store reward. This means that some frigate modules really can't sell for below 50-60M ISK.
Anyway, the first change I'd make is lowering the tag amounts... the second is increasing the tag supply.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Roh Voleto
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Posted - 2011.06.05 02:00:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Roh Voleto on 05/06/2011 02:01:37
Originally by: Akita T
Because getting the LP in the first place is not tedious at all? And because eyeballing the markets for a very rough LP conversion rate of the items you are about to click to purchase is really so much work ?
Exactly. It's a matter of different play styles. I enjoy running missions. It is soothing and relaxing, yet challenging enough to keep me awake and my mind occupied. I don't like investing too much work in the market, though. I understand that it is the source of all "fun" and "value" in EVE, but too much of it and it reaches my "work" threshold. I could do the exact same things, with the same amount of effort, and earn Euro instead of EVE ISK.
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Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
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Posted - 2011.06.05 02:05:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Roh Voleto Edited by: Roh Voleto on 05/06/2011 02:01:37
Originally by: Akita T
Because getting the LP in the first place is not tedious at all? And because eyeballing the markets for a very rough LP conversion rate of the items you are about to click to purchase is really so much work ?
Exactly. It's a matter of different play styles. I enjoy running missions. It is soothing and relaxing, yet challenging enough to keep me awake and my mind occupied. I don't like investing too much work in the market, though. I understand that it is the source of all "fun" and "value" in EVE, but too much of it and it reaches my "work" threshold. I could do the exact same things, with the same amount of effort, and earn Euro instead of EVE ISK.
Do I hear a "Gimme free EVE time for my relaxed mission running" hum in the back of your ceering words? -- Thanks CCP for cu |
Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.05 02:05:00 -
[24]
Looking over these comments the only conclusion I can come to is making LP store items worth LP points and only LP points.
As soon as you require isk or tags (or any other item that can be purchased in market) along with the LP points, the item in the LP store now has a market "competitor."
My point is that the "reward" should be in accordance with the effort you put into running the missions...not what additional isk or items you may have as well, or may need to purchase in order to aquire the items in LP stores.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.05 02:08:00 -
[25]
So then, why not scrap the whole LP concept and ask for the MISSIONS to simply hand you an item as bonus instead ? _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.05 02:12:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Akita T So then, why not scrap the whole LP concept and ask for the MISSIONS to simply hand you an item as bonus instead ?
No one mission is worth a Navy Vexor. Maybe some low-level implants or small ammount of T1 ammo or BPC. You would still have to accumulate points of somekind for the big-ticket items.
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Cole Phelps
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.06.05 02:15:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Akita T
The LP shop "eats up" both LP and ISK. The ISK you pay to the LP shop is destroyed. The LP shop is an ISK sink. Right now, there are very few ISK sinks left in the game, and the LP shop is one of the larger ones, total ISK volume speaking. Reducing the ISK cost of items in the LP shop reduces the magnitude of an ISK sink. Removing the ISK cost altogether removes the ISK sink altogether. Less of an ISK sink -> more ISK -> contributes towards inflation.
Ok, fine, I understand what you're saying. this doesn't matter really. If people suddenly have more ISK -> prices will go up = inflation (as you say). I have no problem with that, no. The market regulates itself, so the ratio between generated/spent ISK and hours played will eventually be the same as before.
Since New Eden is a monetary union with no external trading partners, exchange rates between ISK and the other, non-existing currencies, don't play a part in this.
Right now LP is the currency being used when the mission-runner buys goods from NPC corporations. This is the only market in the game where LP is being used. Buy adding ISK to the price in addition to LP, it will make some of the investment into the item taken from elsewhere than running missions (like mining, pirating, trading) = less time spent running missions in order to aquire the item. This means more people than the harcore missioneer will be able to aquire these items faster. If this ISK was converted into LP instead, it would require more time spent running missions (higher LP cost). Since many of the people having other careers sees missions as a tedious and time consuming activity, less people would be able buy the items from the NPC corporations. The supply on the market would go down, and prices would go up. The mission runner will get his reward for actually running mission, but more importantly: The store is closer tied to capsuleer loyalty to that specific corporation.
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Sofa Raddis
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Posted - 2011.06.05 02:16:00 -
[28]
You'd still need to check the market though.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.05 02:16:00 -
[29]
I don't see how you made that jump. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Snake Scofield
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Posted - 2011.06.05 02:19:00 -
[30]
I thought LP points were just a side bonus. A little something to make you happy. Kind of like I did the mission for the isk but I also got this.
Maybe they should change the mission text to:
Reward : 5million isk + 1 million isk worth of LP.
Reward : 4000 LP, oh and you also get some isk.
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Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.05 02:22:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Snake Scofield I thought LP points were just a side bonus. A little something to make you happy. Kind of like I did the mission for the isk but I also got this.
Maybe they should change the mission text to:
Reward : 5million isk + 1 million isk worth of LP.
Reward : 4000 LP, oh and you also get some isk.
OR
Have you choose between an isk reward or an LP amount reward, but not both.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.05 02:22:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Atticus Fynch
Originally by: Snake Scofield I thought LP points were just a side bonus. A little something to make you happy. Kind of like I did the mission for the isk but I also got this.
Maybe they should change the mission text to:
Reward : 5million isk + 1 million isk worth of LP.
Reward : 4000 LP, oh and you also get some isk.
OR
Have you choose between an isk reward or an LP amount reward, but not both.
No. Just no. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Roh Voleto
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Posted - 2011.06.05 02:33:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Tonto Auri
Do I hear a "Gimme free EVE time for my relaxed mission running" hum in the back of your ceering words?
Nah, I'm fine. TBH (And ignoring the whole MT rainbow-tree): I would like to see a massive rebalancing of EVE's ISK and wealth sources, Including the ones I end up exploiting by playing the game the way I enjoy it, with the goal of making wealth, and the effort spent gaining it, more meaningful. Damn, do you remember how awesome it was to earn your first five million? Or losing your fist Rifter? I wish the game could be like this a little longer.
Originally by: Akita T So then, why not scrap the whole LP concept and ask for the MISSIONS to simply hand you an item as bonus instead ?
Indeed, why not? That would be another balancing option. Why do we need another, NPC only, currency?
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Cole Phelps
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.06.05 02:42:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Roh Voleto
Originally by: Akita T So then, why not scrap the whole LP concept and ask for the MISSIONS to simply hand you an item as bonus instead ?
Indeed, why not? That would be another balancing option. Why do we need another, NPC only, currency?
I agree. No need to make it anymore complicated than that. That sounds more like a reward to me. Getting ISK or LP as a "reward" is actually nothing more than getting your salary for doing your job, which happens to be running missions for a corporation.
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Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.05 02:52:00 -
[35]
OK, so what kind of mission would you have to complete for say, a Navy Megathron as a reward?
Kill a blob of 25,000 NPC pirates maybe?
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Cole Phelps
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.06.05 02:55:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Atticus Fynch OK, so what kind of mission would you have to complete for say, a Navy Megathron as a reward?
Kill a blob of 25,000 NPC pirates maybe?
You can accumulate LP in some other way than make it a currency. Like "Do 10 level 4 missions for us, and you get a Navy Megathron"
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Roh Voleto
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Posted - 2011.06.05 02:56:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Roh Voleto on 05/06/2011 02:56:14
Originally by: Atticus Fynch OK, so what kind of mission would you have to complete for say, a Navy Megathron as a reward?
Kill a blob of 25,000 NPC pirates maybe?
The game does not have a good track record in this regard, but how about a lottery? Have you run more than 250 missions for the Federation? Congratulations! You qualify for the big Megathron lottery.
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Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.05 02:56:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Cole Phelps
Originally by: Atticus Fynch OK, so what kind of mission would you have to complete for say, a Navy Megathron as a reward?
Kill a blob of 25,000 NPC pirates maybe?
You can accumulate LP in some other way than make it a currency. Like "Do 10 level 4 missions for us, and you get a Navy Megathron"
OK, I see how that might work.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.05 02:58:00 -
[39]
I hope you people are trolling. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.05 03:00:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Liang Nuren I hope you people are trolling.
Actually Im just killing time here waiting for a skill to finish up so i can fly my new shiny.
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Cole Phelps
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.06.05 03:09:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Liang Nuren I hope you people are trolling.
Elaborate please.
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.05 03:14:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Cole Phelps
You can accumulate LP in some other way than make it a currency. Like "Do 10 level 4 missions for us, and you get a Navy Megathron"
Not grindy and/or Skinner box-ish enough. Make it the reward of a random storyline mission.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Roh Voleto
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Posted - 2011.06.05 03:21:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Roh Voleto on 05/06/2011 03:23:21 Giving it one last thought:
How about getting rid of the whole loyalty concept? Why not have faction rats drop faction items and BPC's? It would make anti faction missions more attractive, and changing the drop rates would offer a subtle way to adjust mission rewards.
Edit: Random generic implants could stay a/become the only reward for storyline mission.
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Baljos Arnjak
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Posted - 2011.06.05 03:31:00 -
[44]
Something that I haven't seen mentioned here is the utility of the items. A lot of items are close to the same or worse than T2 items, and yet they cost a heck of a lot more. Something to think about anyway.
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Baljos Arnjak
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Posted - 2011.06.05 03:45:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Baljos Arnjak on 05/06/2011 03:47:06
Originally by: Roh Voleto Edited by: Roh Voleto on 05/06/2011 03:23:21 Giving it one last thought:
How about getting rid of the whole loyalty concept? Why not have faction rats drop faction items and BPC's? It would make anti faction missions more attractive, and changing the drop rates would offer a subtle way to adjust mission rewards.
Edit: Random generic implants could stay a/become the only reward for storyline mission.
I actually really like that idea. I always thought that anti-faction mission should be more meaningful, and thus more rewarding. It fits in good with the lore too.
BUT it's wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to have enemy faction NPC's dropping mods that belong to the faction you're running for. Say you kill a Imperial Navy Whatever and get a Republic Fleet Gyro....what? It would cause a massive upheaval, lol. Not that that's a bad thing, it would finally give me a reason to get my Amarr standings above -10.
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Roh Voleto
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Posted - 2011.06.05 03:56:00 -
[46]
That's the idea. Minmatar drop Republic Fleet stuff, Amarr drop Imperial Navy stuff.
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Cpt Fina
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade
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Posted - 2011.06.05 05:43:00 -
[47]
As far as I understand this phenomenon isn't unique. In some cases û manufacturing higher end products will actually have negative absolute yield...
Not a problem, it's just how people value their time and how they approach eve û as work or as something fun
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0oO0oOoOo0o
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Posted - 2011.06.05 05:55:00 -
[48]
The problem meantioned by the OP is not "caused because of how the market works". The reason behind it is a diffrent source for that items, so that the market is split, when it comes to the supply. There are for example some implants, that cost 3mil isk on the market, because they are looted frequently or are rewards from missions, that are spammed by farmers. If you buy that implant from the LP store, you pay 10mil isk + LP. This is such a case, as mentioned by OP, and this indeed should be fixed, as this offers pollute the already overstuffed LP store needlessly. Either by removing this items from LP store, by adjusting the prices or by removing the other sources, which provide those items.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.06.05 08:10:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Atticus Fynch OK, so you run missions for your favorite agent. Rack up the loyalty points then realize that some items (the ones that require isk + LP)can be purchased cheaper on the market than in the LP store even with the "reduced" loyalty point store price.
Defeats the purpose of getting "rewarded" by acquiring loyaty points doesnt it?
Loyalty point store prices should then be dynamic and reflect market trends.
Or is there something I'm missing?
Nope, you're spot on. At least 90% of the offers in every LP store are worthless (probably an underestimate).
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.06.05 08:19:00 -
[50]
Am I the only person who cared so little about their LP that they effectively just gave them away to people for free?
I've honestly never considered LP's to be worth anything, just a quick way to replace implants if I got podded or something.
I may or may not have 100-200k atm, honestly I really don't know or care.
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Glyken Touchon
Gallente Independent Alchemists
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Posted - 2011.06.05 09:48:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Akita T Here's a hint : if the LP store ISK cost is above the market ISK sales price, you should really not click to purchase it. It doesn't really get much easier than that.
This covers all complaints about negative LP value... Why would you buy it with LP?
I would like to see smaller LP stores, with more variation between corps in the same faction. ______
Originally by: CCP Veritas In other words, I believe Dogma is doing stupid things, and I intend to beat the stupid out of it before considering giving it rocket boots.
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.05 10:05:00 -
[52]
Due to the mission agent changes, there will be even MORE LP available and thus MORE faction items on the market now exhabarating the position even more.
I have said for ages the LP store has to be like the Insurance changes, dynamic to be cheaper than the market.
Look at +4 implants on the LP store, its cheaper to get them on the market and keep the LP for larger price LP items.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.06.05 10:05:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Glyken Touchon
Originally by: Akita T Here's a hint : if the LP store ISK cost is above the market ISK sales price, you should really not click to purchase it. It doesn't really get much easier than that.
This covers all complaints about negative LP value... Why would you buy it with LP?
I would like to see smaller LP stores, with more variation between corps in the same faction.
The issue is a tiny bit more complex than LOL DONT BUY OVERPRICED STUFF U DUMB HEAD
There is stuff in the LP store that might have utility if the pricing on it could be arrived at dynamically, but as it stands, no-one is ever going to buy stuff like the -3% cap use on shield transfer modules implants when they're priced at exactly the same as every other 3% hardwiring.
Additionally, if the LP store prices were made dynamic on a per-corp basis, rather than globally, that would be a great way to spread out mission runners and get the more obscure NPC corp agents some use. Rather than just have 80% of MRs use the navy corps.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.06.05 10:06:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 05/06/2011 10:11:16
Originally by: Glyken Touchon
Originally by: Akita T Here's a hint : if the LP store ISK cost is above the market ISK sales price, you should really not click to purchase it. It doesn't really get much easier than that.
This covers all complaints about negative LP value... Why would you buy it with LP?
I would like to see smaller LP stores, with more variation between corps in the same faction.
That would be very nice (as a lot of stores have nothing special and faction stores like Khanid - for instance a Khanid version of the Navy Omen - or Thukker should have some pretty unique items) and I also totally agree with Akita.
What's currently the case is that: 1) tags are so expensive that for a lot of items buying a deadspace version is even cheaper than buying just the tags 2) over 50% of the LP store items are so inferior that hardly anyone except naive newbs ever buys them 3) only hardwires (that don't require tags) always keep their value, the better ones over 1.25 mil/LP 4) as Miilla said, things like +4 implants are available on such a grand scale that they're far cheaper on the market than the LP store
Now the tag values are a variable here and those prices may vary but for the inferior modules CCP really should find an alternative. Things like Gallente armor stuff or Minmatar missile stuff, does anyone buy those at all?
Well I guess CCP will take another look at it in 2014:
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Originally by: Jennifer Starling 8. LP rewards: are the LP stores being fixed? I mean: you can get deadspace quality stuff that's cheaper than LP store items so no-one in his/her right mind ever gets that stuff, and there's a lot of that kind around.
>> 8. CCP Tallest was looking at looking at it but there are no definite short term plans for changes.
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Merdaneth
Amarr Defensores Fidei Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.05 10:45:00 -
[55]
The problem with the loyalty point store is simple: it has fixed prices.
If the number of LP and tags rerquired would fluctuate according to demand, then it would be a proper store where market mechanics are at work.
A store that never adjusts it prices will eventually run out of customers for many items. Only idiot store owners would offer wares at prices customer don't want to pay.
If an LP store item isn't bought, its price should slowly drop until it is sold again. Conversely, if it is sold a lot, its price should rise. ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Glyken Touchon
Gallente Independent Alchemists
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Posted - 2011.06.05 10:50:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Glyken Touchon
I would like to see smaller LP stores, with more variation between corps in the same faction.
The issue is a tiny bit more complex than LOL DONT BUY OVERPRICED STUFF U DUMB HEAD
There is stuff in the LP store that might have utility if the pricing on it could be arrived at dynamically, but as it stands, no-one is ever going to buy stuff like the -3% cap use on shield transfer modules implants when they're priced at exactly the same as every other 3% hardwiring.
Additionally, if the LP store prices were made dynamic on a per-corp basis, rather than globally, that would be a great way to spread out mission runners and get the more obscure NPC corp agents some use. Rather than just have 80% of MRs use the navy corps.
I would like to see both item availability and price varied more between corps. If dynamic agent quality is on the cards (heres hoping the recent change was a step towards that), then the market/contract prices should adjust so long as each corp has it's own niche and the aren't too many "global" items.
______
Originally by: CCP Veritas In other words, I believe Dogma is doing stupid things, and I intend to beat the stupid out of it before considering giving it rocket boots.
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Glyken Touchon
Gallente Independent Alchemists
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Posted - 2011.06.05 10:57:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Merdaneth If an LP store item isn't bought, its price should slowly drop until it is sold again. Conversely, if it is sold a lot, its price should rise.
If dynamic pricing were introduced, this is the way it should be done- no comparing to the market, just base it on sales. ______
Originally by: CCP Veritas In other words, I believe Dogma is doing stupid things, and I intend to beat the stupid out of it before considering giving it rocket boots.
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.05 11:02:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Miilla on 05/06/2011 11:04:00
What if they change the LP store to only use AURUM to further help the sinking of PLEX?
Scary thought isn't it.
Sometime's its better not to say anything to draw attention to it :)
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Mr LaForge
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Posted - 2011.06.05 11:08:00 -
[59]
All LP stores need to be rebalanced and also start using the useless DNA and useless tags you get on mission drops from the NPCs. I have a collection of em from killing ZAZZ.
Also thee are too many implants in the LP store. Some of them (or all of them) should be moved to PI to be created there. Perhaps only leaving the learning implants in the LP store. Bring on the +6 and +7 implants too in the concord store. As it stands now, most of the LP stores have mostly useless things to buy.
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Darth Emu Ohmiras
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Posted - 2011.06.05 11:10:00 -
[60]
I pray this all trolling, or some of you guys are just incredibly, incredibly, incredibly stupid.
If the price bothers you, then cash out your LP on profitable ventures and buy the Navy Mega from somebody who put it on the market. If somebody wants to put a faction hull on the market for say 200 ISK per LP, let him.
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Brooks Puuntai
Minmatar Solar Nexus. -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.06.05 11:11:00 -
[61]
-Remove isk cost in LP stores, -Remove bounties for missions as well as isk payouts -Increase LP gain and Tag drops -Add more LP sinks to the store.
This removes both the faucet and the sink that mission running causes as well as allow LPs to truly be based off of supply/demand which will balance itself out.
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.05 11:13:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Brooks Puuntai -Remove isk cost in LP stores, -Remove bounties for missions as well as isk payouts -Increase LP gain and Tag drops -Add more LP sinks to the store.
This removes both the faucet and the sink that mission running causes as well as allow LPs to truly be based off of supply/demand which will balance itself out.
- Add AURUM to LP purchases
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Brooks Puuntai
Minmatar Solar Nexus. -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.06.05 11:15:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Miilla
- Add AURUM to LP purchases
It wouldn't surprise me tbh.. Being able to buy a Gallente Militia banner for you CQ for 10,000 LP and 200 Aurum.
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Swynet
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Posted - 2011.06.05 11:21:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Roh Voleto +1
The LP stores need constant rebalancing. There are way too many "rewards" with a negative LP value.
+1 You can't avoid people running mission/lp's like a job, those are the ones who create this kind of situation. Add FW missions LP's reward just insane.
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.06.05 11:24:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Miilla - Add AURUM to LP purchases
Get Faction uniforms for LP + AUR!!!
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kari bourza
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Posted - 2011.06.05 11:38:00 -
[66]
I'd like to add my 2 cent about the LP store, as it is currently LP store lacks variety, few corps only stand out, the items them self are most of the times not worth it, simply because they need expensive tags, the nomenclature of the implants is confusing and there are waaaaaaay too many ( zainou, dead eye, etc etc etc ...), surely CCP can come with a simplified nomenclature,
LP STORE as a hall need some love from CCP, put in some unique rewards, some nice ships, use your imagination to come up with interesting rewards and dont make them impossible to reach, i'm sure you can do it CCP if you really want to.
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.06.05 11:42:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 05/06/2011 11:42:31
Originally by: kari bourza LP STORE as a hall need some love from CCP, put in some unique rewards, some nice ships, use your imagination to come up with interesting rewards and dont make them impossible to reach, i'm sure you can do it CCP if you really want to.
I have close to 3 million LP, not sure what to do with it right now .. it's not that there's an abundance of fun things to get from the store .. I want to do a nice shopping spree but what shall I buy??
And I want that Khanid Navy Omen!
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Adunh Slavy
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Posted - 2011.06.05 14:02:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Miilla e]
- Add AURUM to LP purchases
click unsubscribe button
The Real Space Initiative - V7
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2011.06.05 14:40:00 -
[69]
The market is the the systems balance - learn to play.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.06.05 14:44:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 05/06/2011 14:47:14
Originally by: Ghoest The market is the the systems balance - learn to play.
Don't be silly. If you can get faction or deadspace stuff for less than LP store items something's clearly wrong. The thing is that LP stores aren't part of the market, they're fixed and don't lower their prices if people don't buy something for years because it's all crap. A bit the same as the insurance prices that made people blow up their own battleships for years because insurance wasn't connected to market prices. We need something like this for LP stores too.
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Harisdrop
Gallente Vindicate and Deliverance
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Posted - 2011.06.05 14:45:00 -
[71]
Should be in "Features and Ideas" forum
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Jacob Holland
Gallente Weyland-Vulcan Industries Brotherhood Of The Sick and Twisted
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Posted - 2011.06.05 16:59:00 -
[72]
While there are things wrong with the LP Store I don't think that market driven LP costs are the answer. What I would like to see though is the removal of the tag bottleneck - certain tags are highly overvalued due to their LP Store demand while others are all but worthless.
I would therefore like to take the NPC bounty on the tags and use it to define a value in "tag credits" so that rather than a number of specific tags the LP Store offers would require a number of these "tag credits".
Not only does this remove the bottleneck around certain tags (High Captains (IIRC) for example) but it also places a market driven value on every tag, including those from level 1 missions. --
Originally by: cordy
Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.05 17:34:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Jacob Holland While there are things wrong with the LP Store I don't think that market driven LP costs are the answer. What I would like to see though is the removal of the tag bottleneck - certain tags are highly overvalued due to their LP Store demand while others are all but worthless.
I would therefore like to take the NPC bounty on the tags and use it to define a value in "tag credits" so that rather than a number of specific tags the LP Store offers would require a number of these "tag credits".
Not only does this remove the bottleneck around certain tags (High Captains (IIRC) for example) but it also places a market driven value on every tag, including those from level 1 missions.
It also eliminates the markets built around tags. That's a bad thing.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.05 17:46:00 -
[74]
My original statement on page 1 still rings true. And everyone knows it.
It's just that for whatever reason... terrible players won't learn to adapt, and it stems from the same mentality that has plagued the console world (and possibly even the real world). Players don't want 'Baldur's Gate III', or Ikaruga, they want Dragon Age II and PUsHoneButaNforFun. More flashy effects and single-minded activities, rather than dynamic game mechanics like EVE's market.
Of course having to do something new when the old thing stops working anymore, due to TOO MANY IDIOTS DOING THE SAME THING is a sure sign of the game needed to be change, because it's too hard to look in the mirror, since these kids have been told they're all special by mommy and daddy since they were born. Certainly something's wrong with THE GAME! Of course there is.
EVE has changed a lot since I started playing it, and CCP has made it more and more user-friendly over the ages. But sometimes... like this time it still gives meaning to the good old phraze: "Adapt or die".
HABIT
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Valerie Valate
Amarr Church of The Crimson Saviour
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Posted - 2011.06.05 17:50:00 -
[75]
There are several things that lower the prices of items so that return on the items is poor:
Some items, such as some implants, are storyline mission rewards, and as such the supply of them is very high. This lowers the market price because people want to sell them as fast as possible, and since the items were "free" as a mission reward, it does not matter if the price goes below the LP store cost.
Other items sometimes appear in npc loot, e.g. faction ammunition (can get caldari navy missiles from some caldari mission npcs). Again, since they were "free", people do not care if they sell them for below the LP store cost.
Yet more items, e.g. Imperial Navy EANMs will be fitted to ships, and those ships are lost in pvp encounters, with some of the modules surviving. yet again, the seller does not care if the item sells for below LP store cost, because they did not buy it from there.
Then there are the people who are not really interested in the concepts of "opportunity cost", and just don't care what they sell things for.
And I don't see how those things would change if the LP store prices are dynamic.
_________________________________________
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Jacob Holland
Gallente Weyland-Vulcan Industries Brotherhood Of The Sick and Twisted
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Posted - 2011.06.05 20:21:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Liang Nuren It also eliminates the markets built around tags. That's a bad thing.
-Liang
Not eliminates... Restructures. You'd probably get buy orders in low level mission systems buying bottom end tags because they could get 'x' low end tags for less than the higher level ones (especially if each tag conversion cost LP). There would be optimal tags for conversion, the demand for these would grow and supply remain the same and so the price rises, perhaps another takes over because its supply is higher... But when bottlenecks were hit there would always be an alternative, less efficient but potentially with a lower opportunity cost and the LP store would cease to be for L4 runners only.
The lower level offers, stuff like free build cruisers, were taken out to turn manufactured items over to the players but in the process the LP Store shut out young players to a degree - all they really have ATM are lowend implants (Faction frigate mod tags tend to drop in L2 or 3 missions IIRC so younger players can't take advantage of them because they are unlikely to be running that type of mission in a frigate). While what I'd really like to see are things like the Minmatar Slaves+LP -> Freed Slaves offers I'd settle for simply adding some diversity to the existing offers by allowing the same offer to be purchased in different ways (The old 200kLP faction BS offer for example, same faction BS for less LP + Ship, minerals and tags). Whether tag conversion is the best way to approach that I don't know - but it would be better than having sixteen different offers for the same thing I think. --
Originally by: cordy
Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
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Scarlet des Loupes
Gallente University of Caille
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Posted - 2011.06.05 20:26:00 -
[77]
It doesn¦t have to have that difficult .. may 2011 (just making this up): CN Ballistic Controls sold (inc 5x BPC): 17,301 RF Ballistic Controls sold (inc 5x BPC): 7
Automatically lower the RF version's price until some will sell. Same for other LP stuff. Say if 2,500 are sold each month the price is ok.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.05 20:28:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Jacob Holland but it would be better than having sixteen different offers for the same thing I think.
Or they could just adjust drop rates and tag requirements on frigate items? -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Jeff Severasse
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Posted - 2011.06.06 09:02:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Players don't want 'Baldur's Gate III', or Ikaruga, they want Dragon Age II and PUsHoneButaNforFun.
+1 good sir for knowing what Ikaruga is. (P.S. Play espgaluda)
Anyways moving on, yes while there are LP items on the market that have negative values...like most ship BPC's, but not all of them are that way. Just yesterday I did my monthly ôspring cleaningö and cashed in 400,000 LP's making approx. 180mil profit by selling certain implants. True the conversion rate wasnÆt very good (I remember when it was 1k isk per LP) but ya know I always viewed LP as a little added bonus.
As much as I agree that the LP store has problems, lacks variety and probably needs a significant over haul in my opinion itÆs probably one of the least important broken ideas on CCPÆs plate. My advice is to just flat ignore the LPÆs in missions and once a month go on a shopping spree while thinking to yourself ôBONUS!ö This will take your feelings of frustration to feelings of joyà.at least it did for me.
I know in general ignoring a problem isnÆt the best way to deal with things but after 3 years of playing eve, (and nearly 29 years of life) never sweat the small things (like the LP store) that have nearly 0 affect on your life/experience s(again the LP store). ItÆs just not worth itàthat and CCP probably doesnÆt care *shrug*.
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