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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 81 post(s) |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2258
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Posted - 2012.09.20 15:56:00 -
[121] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:On the point of Logi in DED complexes, again, this is just ramping up the amount of people you'll need in a site as one logi will no longer be enough, you'll need at least two, maybe three when neut towers, webs etc come into play, and don't get me started on level 4 missions where guristas can permajam a person for 10 minutes straight.
It forces people to work in groups, yes, but maybe it's reducing certain group work to lowest common denominator.
Hmm... not that I'm opposed to the idea, but it's going to make it a lot more difficult to bring newer players along on higher level missions. I remember a lot of my first involvement (and making ISK) in the game was running L4 missions with my corp, even though I could barely get through level 3s at the time, combined with the drake resistance nerf that's going to make getting into higher level missions a complete non-starter for a lot of newer players.
So yes, while it won't have that much of an effect on the solo mission grinder, it might actually run counter to introducing newer players. Gone will be the days of tanking a room with a Tengu while so a nooby corp member can get in and shoot at some NPCs in their first caracal or drake as they'd be insta-blaped by NPCs (presuming you don't have 2 or 3 other corp members who're also willing to come along in Scimis).
Be very warey. There's a lot of meta-play around current NPC aggression mechanics. This is one of the reasons we are trying to get this out on the test server now and feedback on it. What we actually hope happens, due to ships wanting to kill ships of their own size, is that newer players can come along in frigates and deal with the frigate NPCs. As for the Logi question, this will take a lot of testing. We were still able to complete missions internally with a single logistics ship, it took some effort but we did it.
Look into the Basilisk. It's got a fantastic tank and contrary to popular opinion does not need a cap chain.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
249
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Posted - 2012.09.20 15:56:00 -
[122] - Quote
If this change applies to the npc stations and rats at the end of 10/10 and 9/10 complex, those plexes just became totally undoable. EVERY plex strategy in plexes with the "super torps" revolves around getting "boss aggro' to the one ship fit to tank the torp.
I can't imagine how you'd do a Blood Raider 10/10 now. |
Junko Sideswipe
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
61
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Posted - 2012.09.20 15:57:00 -
[123] - Quote
Well that kills plexing for me.
Maybe if you gave escalations guaranteed loot drops they'll be worth it again.
EDIT: Also, thanks for killing ninja salvaging, a legitimate newbie profession. |
Il Reverendo
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
6
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Posted - 2012.09.20 15:58:00 -
[124] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:What about sites like Dread Guristas Fleet Staging Point 3? There is a Guristas Fleet Stronghold that launches Citadel Torpedos every 30 seconds. It will obliterate any subcap support for the capital already required to tank it if it switches targets. Or is it expected some sites become cap only? To be honest I am not familiar with this site and will have to test it.
Please do. This is the only aspect of the changes that worries me. Target switching + high end escalations and 10/10's with massive burst dmg or citadel torps and you may find yourself making things unnecessarily complicated, forcing us to use so many people or such high value ships (look into the different tanking approaches and the other ships that they rely on and you'll start to see the inherent issues) as to render them nigh on pointless.
[before anyone mentions it, yes you don't need to use a capital to tank (forget capitals, they're immaterial to the point being made), can be done easily with a hac/t3/small fast etc but throw in target switching and it's still a problem since the tank generally has little to no dmg and requires remote repping...if every ship you take in has to think about target switching...which means things start to get silly] |
Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
32
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Posted - 2012.09.20 15:59:00 -
[125] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:If this change applies to the npc stations and rats at the end of 10/10 and 9/10 complex, those plexes just became totally undoable. EVERY plex strategy in plexes with the "super torps" revolves around getting "boss aggro' to the one ship fit to tank the torp.
I can't imagine how you'd do a Blood Raider 10/10 now. My ignorance is showing, but I'll risk the nudity:
Can defenders kill citadels? If so, that might suddenly have a use for the aggroed ship. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2258
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 15:59:00 -
[126] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Aethlyn wrote:Sturmwolke wrote:L1 AI in L4 missions? ... ahaha ... it'll be very bloody the first few weeks Why? IMO what makes Sleepers and (Incursion) Sansha more dangerous than the usual pirates are their stats: Speed, Health and Damage. That's nothing touched by just switching the underlying AI, considering most people run missions solo or in small groups only anyway. It might screw up people flying AFK drone boats, but at the same time it's something you shouldn't do anyway (why pay to play a game, when you don't even play then?). To be honest one of my concerns is people abusing the target switching to take even less tank into the mission.
Count on this. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Il Reverendo
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
6
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Posted - 2012.09.20 15:59:00 -
[127] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
I can't imagine how you'd do a Blood Raider 10/10 now.
It's easy, all ships just have to be able to tank the torp, deal dmg, rr and not be dependent on cap.
...oh wait.... |
l0rd carlos
Friends Of Harassment
46
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Posted - 2012.09.20 16:02:00 -
[128] - Quote
Syn Fatelyng wrote: Can defenders kill citadels? If so, that might suddenly have a use for the aggroed ship.
Smartbombs can ;-) |
aoeu Itonula
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.09.20 16:05:00 -
[129] - Quote
This is really bad for high-end DED plexes. Right now, because of terrible loot tables (especially the 8/10s), it's barely better isk/hr for a pilot to run around probing and doing DED plexes than it is to just anom or do L4s, not to mention how FW missioning outpaces it by leaps and bounds. With requiring every ship in the site to have a massive tank, completion time will go in the toilet, and isk/hour with it. Expect DED plexing isk/hour to plummet to the level of afk mining ice in hisec - which leaves no reason to do it at all. |
colera deldios
Broski North Black Legion.
53
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Posted - 2012.09.20 16:07:00 -
[130] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Louis deGuerre wrote:BRAIIIIIIINNNNNS BRAIIIINNNNSSSS This is going to be soooooo much fun. I can already taste the sea of tears A sea of tears over this... you should have seen what else we wanted the NPC to do.
This should be excluded from DED sites and Exploration because it will remove solo exploration compleatley. For instance right now i run Tengu for tank on my main and Proteus on my alt for DPS. While my Tengu tanks i can kill things with my Proteus however if things are swiching targets to my no-tank proteus this whole idea is kaput.
On the other hand constant warping in and out will mean it will take me longer to do a plex giving nasty locals more time to respond to me. |
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aoeu Itonula
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.09.20 16:07:00 -
[131] - Quote
I have some other questions too - if you insist on giving the AI behavior that targets drones, much like happens in PvP, will you be bringing other PvP damage avoidance behaviors to the AI as well? For instance, NPCs with MWDs that actually kite close-range ships, or NPCs that firewall incoming missiles, or even NPCs that spiral in to keep up their transversal instead of just MWDing straight towards the target then orbiting. |
Lord Zim
1515
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Posted - 2012.09.20 16:11:00 -
[132] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Nickabocka Glory wrote:What will happen to the risk reward balance of high, low and null sec NPCs?
Making NPCs harder sounds like fun but the extra time and effort required to kill them needs to be reflected in their value. This should not really make them that much harder to kill, actually it is not changing their tank or DPS at all. So killing time should not change. Let's pretend I stopped caring about running beltrats or anoms in nullsec years ago because the effort/reward ratio made running L4s in hisec a better proposition. Why should this make it worth it, to me, to move my isk-making char back to nullsec? Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilotn++ won't be jumping home. |
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
1067
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Posted - 2012.09.20 16:12:00 -
[133] - Quote
l0rd carlos wrote:Syn Fatelyng wrote: Can defenders kill citadels? If so, that might suddenly have a use for the aggroed ship.
Smartbombs can ;-)
If you can determine exactly were the server thinks the missile is compared to what you see visually. Sure. Though i think they should just rework the defender system. |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
868
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 16:13:00 -
[134] - Quote
What really needs to come from this is a couple specific changes ::
---Webifying towers need to be less effective. They are too powerful in relationship to normal webs.
---All EWAR needs a good examination to ensure it's not overwhelming, because the NPC EWAR is not like PC EWAR.
There's a couple UBER structures in Exploration sites that get absurd effects and would become nearly impossible to do this without a reliable tank ship.
Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
Lord Zim
1515
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Posted - 2012.09.20 16:16:00 -
[135] - Quote
Oh wait, what am I saying? L4s are so last year, this year it's FW farmville ahoy. Shouldn't be too long till minmatar or caldari hits L5 again so we can coordinate the cash out. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilotn++ won't be jumping home. |
seth Hendar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2012.09.20 16:22:00 -
[136] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Migrator Soul wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:A sea of tears over this... you should have seen what else we wanted the NPC to do. Please, do it then. Hell, even the current sleeper AI is laughably easy.. I would love to see NPC AI become on par with player skill, therefore increasing the difficulty of missions.. Our ultimate goal is that PvP and PvE fits should be the same and a lot of the thought process should be the same. That is... a long way off though. sorry to disapoint you, but this would probably never happen, unless you come up with a kind of npc we need to point / neut.
and tracking ewar is only usefull against some sleepers actually, so unless you expand the usage among the regular npc, ewar drones / modules will remain unused.
so absolutely no way to have the same fitting :) |
Despana
Ice Cream Van
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 16:26:00 -
[137] - Quote
I can't believe so many people actually HAPPY about this changes....
How about you will turn on your brains before you post something in here and make CCP think they are on the right path?
Let me tell you why I will quit this game if this changes will go live:
I play eve since 2004 and I am not a big fan of gangs, fleets etc. Because this game is sandbox, it gives us free choice what to do. My choice is SOLO, period, and here's why it will kill 95% of my fun:
I do fly Assaults and other small ships ships in null / low sec. to catch belt, anomaly, mission hunters on small ships and then kill them when they don't pay enough attention to local and d-scan. Now, killing drakes, ravens, dominixes and other hunter will be impossible on small ships, because I won't have enough time to kill them before NPC's will trim me off.
Covert OP bombers? Forget about it. We barely could orbit tank ships without NPC's attacking us, now - no chance at all.
Basically, killing people while they are doing their hunting will be impossible on small and even medium ships.
By any means, killing solo pvp will NOT make people happy. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
321
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Posted - 2012.09.20 16:26:00 -
[138] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:Nickabocka Glory wrote:What will happen to the risk reward balance of high, low and null sec NPCs?
Making NPCs harder sounds like fun but the extra time and effort required to kill them needs to be reflected in their value. This should not really make them that much harder to kill, actually it is not changing their tank or DPS at all. So killing time should not change. Let's pretend I stopped caring about running beltrats or anoms in nullsec years ago because the effort/reward ratio made running L4s in hisec a better proposition. Why should this make it worth it, to me, to move my isk-making char back to nullsec? There is zero incentive unless the bounties or faction / dead-space loot drop rates improve.
Now, if CCP would re-introduce the drop of faction (OR dead-space) towers and POS module BPCs (which we lost with the Tyrannis expansion over two years ago), then you might generate some serious interest in exploration.
The faction POS tower or module BPC drops could be phased in on a CCP designed schedule so as not to flood the market and to continue to generate interest in exploration over the long-term.
Additionally, if / when CCP revamps the POS system, they could introduce new and fancy faction POS elements via BPC drops.
Trust me, explorers love this class of loot drops. +++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark GÇ£SeleeneGÇ¥ Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith. |
Captain Surprise Sex
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.09.20 16:27:00 -
[139] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Sturmwolke wrote:L1 AI in L4 missions? ... ahaha ... it'll be very bloody the first few weeks As for the drones issue, you have a mechanism to save them (by re-calling and re-launching) but it's too archaic/clunky/fidgety for extended use. Fix this and it'll alleviate some of the major issues facing drone boats. I propose an auto-recall function when drone hits a user specified amount of dmg but keep the launch/re-launch manual. Edit: This also looks like another indirect nerf to L4 income if it changes L4 missioning in such a way that it affects the avg pilot's completion time. The lessons from the incursion changes are still fresh in mind. Shift+R recalls drones... I do agree though that system needs some work. We will be keeping an eye on the income generated from L4 missions as we do have graphs and statistics for this. :)
Drone boats desperately need a way to launch drones with a hotkey. And not just a "Hey CCP pick some random drones and throw them into space! Heavy armor maintenance I's and a EV-900? Solid choices!" crap shoot like you get executing "Launch" on the root of the drone tree, but the ability to assign different hotkeys to different drone groups.
This is something that should have been done years ago, but being as we're apparently dead set on making cycling drones an exciting new facet of the engaging PvE experience a new flavor of tedium in a never-ending, soul-crushingly dull grind I'd say it now rates as pretty critical. |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
36
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Posted - 2012.09.20 16:28:00 -
[140] - Quote
I approve of this AI system upgrade.
I've been wondering when it would of been implemented on the rest of the game, since Sleepers/Incursions are awesome. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
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Alexander the Great
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.09.20 16:38:00 -
[141] - Quote
Do you really think this will make PvE more fun?
Most PvE is done solo so this won't make any impact at large scale.
You are making it harder to use logistics and take new players to high level missions so they can have fun.
You are making us do the same thing but in harder way, which I can't call fun. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
249
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 16:38:00 -
[142] - Quote
Syn Fatelyng wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:If this change applies to the npc stations and rats at the end of 10/10 and 9/10 complex, those plexes just became totally undoable. EVERY plex strategy in plexes with the "super torps" revolves around getting "boss aggro' to the one ship fit to tank the torp.
I can't imagine how you'd do a Blood Raider 10/10 now. My ignorance is showing, but I'll risk the nudity: Can defenders kill citadels? If so, that might suddenly have a use for the aggroed ship.
I dunno, but it would be cool if they could, or at least dampen the damage.
I can't put defenders on my Mach so thats moot, smartbomb maybe, but I'd just end up not risking the mach in 10/10s anymore. This change is basically good, but it should be considered deeply before ccp goes through with it.
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Syrias Bizniz
Carnivore Company
9
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Posted - 2012.09.20 16:43:00 -
[143] - Quote
I'm not sure whether or not this has been reported earlier. But in the last 3 or 4 weeks i have recognized something i haven't encountered so far on Tranquility. I went into the Metropolis Region and did some belt-ratting in lowsec with a corpmember. I also warped into Cosmic anomalies in Highsec, in some there was already another player flying the site. I can tell you, i have been VERY surprised in lowsec belts, when Red-blinking NPCs went from red to yellow and started applying damage onto my buddy. And i have also been very surprised when some rats in a cosmic anomaly, clearly agressing another player already in, started yellowboxing and approaching me, him still on the field.
So i really don't know whether or not the whole target switching thingy on rats is all new for beltrats / anoms, or something that maybe has been lurking on tq for quite some time now...
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Oberine Noriepa
910
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Posted - 2012.09.20 16:47:00 -
[144] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Our ultimate goal is that PvP and PvE fits should be the same and a lot of the thought process should be the same. That is... a long way off though. If you guys can pull this off, I will be impressed. This is exactly what I want. Missions and arcs will definitely need some redesigning, though. |
Bobbith
No Fish
4
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Posted - 2012.09.20 16:48:00 -
[145] - Quote
Yay about time!
could you also see about randomizing the rat spawns in missions a bit as well while you are at it?
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David Zahavi
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.09.20 16:49:00 -
[146] - Quote
I think its great the AI will be updated, but if you are going to require us to manage our drones more, it would only be appropriate that the drones interface/control get an upgrade, especially for pilots of gallente ships who depend on drones as a primary damage source.
As it stands, the drones interface is not in any way intuitive, and anyone who doesnt do the gallente intro missions won't even know drones exist, much less how to control them properly.
And even experienced pilots all agree the drones interface needs an upgrade. Either make the new AI not target drones, or update the interface.
Just my 2 cents.
I do welcome the AI change, and hope it turns out well. But if it needs to be postponed until the appropriate systems are in place for it to be optimized, then so be it. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
249
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 16:49:00 -
[147] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote: This is one of the reasons we are trying to get this out on the test server now and feedback on it. What we actually hope happens, due to ships wanting to kill ships of their own size, is that newer players can come along in frigates and deal with the frigate NPCs.
Forcing us to basically bring a gang of logistics or spider tanking battleships just to do high level DEd plexes is a big nerf.
The NPCs across eve might be the same, but the situations you find them in is not. While this might be a minor nusiance in a lvl 4, it becomes a game ending nightmare in the monster DED complexs that ALREADY damn near require at least dual boxing to complete.
This is the problem with the "broad brush" approach (don't get me started on what another part of CCP is thinking of doing with Heavy Missiles lol), change one thing, screw 10 others, PLEASE consider this carefully.
Or, take citadel torps out of DED plexes and just add more npc ships. Some of us REALLY don't want to have to avoid DEd plex escalations because of this.
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Ardon Gareau
Chasm City Syndicate
0
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Posted - 2012.09.20 16:53:00 -
[148] - Quote
There is already an ammo cost with drones. An Ogre II currently runs 530k-590k. I already have a drone attrition rate of probably two drones for every nine missions between disconnects, glitches, drones getting targeted and destroyed as Chaunnay posted, etc. Presuming I already lose two in nine missions, that's an ammo cost of roughly 1.1m ISK (not to mention the ammo I already use to supplement my drone damage). Add two more drone losses due to the target switching, and the cost doubles.
Furthermore, if there is a constant play of pulling aggroed drones back, there is a drop in DPS for drone boats--a drop which could potentially allow for enemy shield recharge or armor rep--greatly increasing the time it takes to complete a mission and dropping the net reward of running missions in a drone boat. Currently my mission running is done about 50/50 between drones and missiles, and I'd say between time and expenses I can earn about the same net profit between the two. If the new AI makes life in a drone boat too toilsome (less fun) or less-profitable (even less fun), I'll naturally be shifted away from using drones to flying my missile boats almost exclusively. It would seem that this change is likely to further-reduce ship/weapon diversity in mission running.
Finally, I understand that the difficulty is not technically increased, but risk to lower-tanked and lower-SP team mates is increased without a corresponding increase in reward. This would seem to make mission running overall less-desirable of an occupation, especially for the newer and more casual players. |
Syrias Bizniz
Carnivore Company
10
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Posted - 2012.09.20 16:56:00 -
[149] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote: This is one of the reasons we are trying to get this out on the test server now and feedback on it. What we actually hope happens, due to ships wanting to kill ships of their own size, is that newer players can come along in frigates and deal with the frigate NPCs.
Forcing us to basically bring a gang of logistics or spider tanking battleships just to do high level DEd plexes is a big nerf. The NPCs across eve might be the same, but the situations you find them in is not. While this might be a minor nusiance in a lvl 4, it becomes a game ending nightmare in the monster DED complexs that ALREADY damn near require at least dual boxing to complete. This is the problem with the "broad brush" approach (don't get me started on what another part of CCP is thinking of doing with Heavy Missiles lol), change one thing, screw 10 others, PLEASE consider this carefully. Or, take citadel torps out of DED plexes and just add more npc ships. Some of us REALLY don't want to have to avoid DEd plex escalations because of this.
So you say, there are DED Plexes that are soloable, but only very tight and are very close to requiring at least 2 chars in it and are stating that these plexes won't be doable solo anymore if the new AI hits TQ?
Well, according to the Dev-Blog, the NPCs will get a target switching AI. They will still have the same dps, speed, optimals, tank, ewar. So ... If doable solo before the change, i can imagine no reason why it wouldn't be doable solo after the patch. For one Pilot doing the site, nothing changes unless you rely heavily on drones. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
335
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Posted - 2012.09.20 17:00:00 -
[150] - Quote
David Zahavi wrote:I think its great the AI will be updated, but if you are going to require us to manage our drones more, it would only be appropriate that the drones interface/control get an upgrade, especially for pilots of gallente ships who depend on drones as a primary damage source.
As it stands, the drones interface is not in any way intuitive, and anyone who doesnt do the gallente intro missions won't even know drones exist, much less how to control them properly.
And even experienced pilots all agree the drones interface needs an upgrade. Either make the new AI not target drones, or update the interface.
Just my 2 cents.
I do welcome the AI change, and hope it turns out well. But if it needs to be postponed until the appropriate systems are in place for it to be optimized, then so be it.
Edit: The other caveat I do have is that... depending on the AI's predilection for changing targets, this could make it significantly harder for a new player in a salvage boat to participate in higher level missions.
Not that salvaging is necessarily the most compelling gameplay, or that missions are either.... but it would most likely relegate them to coming in after the mission is over and not even getting to see the action.
+1 for a better interface.
The other tough thing is with drones, that usually the only way to tell that they have taken aggro is when they start taking damage. Often by then, Plus the time to hotkey return + the time for them to respond means they are seriously damaged. It seems there should be some sort of drone warning you can get so the drones can notify you when they are being targetted so you have an appropriate amount time to react.
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