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Marzuq
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
20
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Posted - 2012.10.15 23:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
Other than massively blobbing the enemy, ECM remains the only true counter to logistic ships.
If ECM were to be "rebalanced" then something would have to be done about the overwhelming strength of logistic ships. |
Nanatoa
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
64
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Posted - 2012.10.15 23:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
We should just go back to the good old days where there were different sizes of sticks and that was it It is never too late to turn from the errors of your ways: He who repents of his sins is almost innocent.
MinerBumping.com |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
198
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Posted - 2012.10.15 23:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
Im sensing OPs fleet was devasted by a smaller force that actually had logis and wasnt a fail fleet. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
370
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Posted - 2012.10.15 23:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Im sensing OPs fleet was devasted by a smaller force that actually had logis and wasnt a fail fleet. or he's an ECM pilot I lost countless ships and millions of isk on gank attempts. I did not blame CCP, Concord or the miner. I blamed me for bothering. I made more money.......... mining.
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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
198
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Posted - 2012.10.15 23:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote:Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Im sensing OPs fleet was devasted by a smaller force that actually had logis and wasnt a fail fleet. or he's an ECM pilot
A bad one with lack of skills by the looks/sounds of it. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
1064
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Posted - 2012.10.15 23:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
Agreed. Dual Pane idea: Click!
CCP Please Implement |
Marzuq
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
20
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Posted - 2012.10.15 23:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Im sensing OPs fleet was devasted by a smaller force that actually had logis and wasnt a fail fleet.
On the contrary I have logistics V and I fly Guardian in my armor fleet most of the time. 3 guardians are practically enough to rep the damage of 10-15 ships.
They themselves are hard to kill due to fairly strong tank, small sig radius, and high moving speed with afterburner. With ECCM's they have good resistance to ECM jammers.
Cap chaining logistics are more difficult to fully neut out due to the excess capacitor that is generated along with the low capacitor cost of RR modules. If one guardian is not neuted, then he will generate cap and keep the chain running.
Sensor damps can move logistic ships closer, but they are gimped and require multiple bonus dampeners to be of any effect.
ECM is a proper counter as it disrupts cap chains and allows you to burn down targets during that 20 second cycle.
The force multiplier of logistic pretty much makes it almost a necessity, a must have for any gang or fleet. You'd need large numbers in order to overcome the effects of logistics. ECM however is a counter to that force multipier.
Nerfing ECM will lower remove a counter to logistics and make them more powerful than before. |
Smiknight
The Plebian Republic
15
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Posted - 2012.10.15 23:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
Nanatoa wrote:We should just go back to the good old days where there were different sizes of sticks and that was it
Nah, because then guys would constantly get into stick measuring contests for weeks on end. Nothing would get done.
As for the topic, ECM should remain a viable combat tactic period. Adaption is your friend, and learning that you are not entitled to win everytime you undocked. I am what you refer to as a Carebear...I care very much about the future New Eden and Eve and couldn't bear the Chicken Littles destroying that. |
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
234
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Posted - 2012.10.16 00:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
OP has a point.
What if fitting repping modules gimped your sensor strength? That is, of course, if ECM was meant to counter logistic chains. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
1448
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Posted - 2012.10.16 02:15:00 -
[10] - Quote
ECM is by far the absolute dumbest ******* game mechanic ever designed in the history of MMOs. And you can quote me on that.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
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Marzuq
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
20
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Posted - 2012.10.16 02:16:00 -
[11] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:ECM is by far the absolute dumbest ******* game mechanic ever designed in the history of MMOs. And you can quote me on that.
What about logistic ships, isn't that a must have as well?
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Grumpymunky
Super Monkey Tribe of Danger
665
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Posted - 2012.10.16 02:18:00 -
[12] - Quote
BECAUSE OF FAL... errr... GUARDIAN!! Post with your monkey.
CCP Gargant: Thread locked due to lack of pants. |
Marcus Ichiro
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
78
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Posted - 2012.10.16 02:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:ECM is by far the absolute dumbest ******* game mechanic ever designed in the history of MMOs. And you can quote me on that.
Why? Did a falcon ruin your day?
Oh right... |
Omega Sunset
Caldari Roughnecks
62
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Posted - 2012.10.16 02:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
Marzuq wrote:If ECM were to be "rebalanced" Heresy!! Die thread, die! With missile nerfs and if this, may as well just delete the Caldari
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
1449
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Posted - 2012.10.16 03:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
Marcus Ichiro wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:ECM is by far the absolute dumbest ******* game mechanic ever designed in the history of MMOs. And you can quote me on that. Why? Did a falcon ruin your day? Oh right... Not recently. I am actually in the process of training up for the Falcon.
OP if you are so dead set that ECM is necessary to counter logistics then I suggest you come up with a suggestion that ECM work only on remote modules like remote armor, shield, tracking and sensor boosting. Then maybe it can work similar to sensor dampeners.
Just a thought.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
J'as Salarkin
Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis
12
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Posted - 2012.10.16 03:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
I already posted this twice before, but none actually commented as everyone is busy trolling each other I guess...
Why do I repost it? It fits perfectly to the discussion. It is an idea fo how to make ECM manily effective on logistics ships, but still not totallyt useless in the rest of the game.
Anyway, this was my post:
I actually like the "chance based" system (it works for guns in falloff too you know), but totally shutting down the target seems a bit..well not well designed.
Instead let the ECM override your targeting systems (100% chance that it will happen), instead randomizing (rng at work here) which ship you will try to shot/repair of the ones you have already locked.
You can easily counter it by just targetting one single ship, which for a frigate is no big deal, but slightly annoying for a battleship.
The ECCM moduel would decrease the risk of your modules targeting the wrong ship.
In the end ECM would almost not affect 1vMany engagements at all as the single ship can still shot back at one opponent at the time, but it could have a massive impact on bigger battles where putting ecm on the logi ships or on the major damage dealers would wreak havoc.
Dont know how to balance (i.e. how high the cahnce of activating your modules on the wrong ships should be) or if its is a good idea to begin with, but it would change the ecm effect to something you can actually counter and even removing it as a tool where it seems to get the most hate from: being locked out of a fight where you are outnumbered anyway.
In addition to the above idea I would like to point out that combining ECM with sensor dampening would be a really powerful tool. This fits nicely to how the target painter and web works together too. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
976
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Posted - 2012.10.16 03:26:00 -
[17] - Quote
Energy Neutralizers. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Omega Sunset
Caldari Roughnecks
62
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Posted - 2012.10.16 03:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
J'as Salarkin wrote: but totally shutting down the target seems a bit..well not well designed. So, what, replace mid slot jammers with shield modules, get rid of ECM ships? ECM boats are weak, even the frigs are loosing a hardpoint this winter, and they are not meant to be tanks like most ships, while certainly less damage output coming to them already (hardpoints and missile nerfs). Anyway this is more of a problem for 1v1, while gang fights can easily turn bad for unskilled or unlucky ewar pilots.
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Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
661
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Posted - 2012.10.16 04:09:00 -
[19] - Quote
neuts, damps, alpha are all good logi counters. there are zero ECM counters, apart from triage/siege which makes you immune but only useable by 2 classes of ships for very specific roles.
this argument has been done to death, ECM and ESPECIALLY EC drones need a full reworking. |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
362
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Posted - 2012.10.16 06:06:00 -
[20] - Quote
NURF TEH ZOMFGOPDRAE-- Oh, hey, wait a minute...
Right, then:
Mods, please gas thread, thank you.
E:
But seriously now:
Aside from the "throw the dice" aspect --which I think is against a core concept of EVE, because random chance =/= validation of/reward for the time spent to train and/or specialise for max. skills at the cost of general versatility in the usual EVE manner-- ECM does not need much fixing, and certainly does not need nerfing. (Hasn't Caldari been nerfed enough for you ******* insufferable crybabies, yet?)
And there are counters:
Sensor dampeners (which, it is implied, may finally be un-nerfed soon-ish). Target Painters (have you hugged your Target Painter today? Criminally under-appreciated module and E-War technique, IMHO). Cap-neutralisers. Alpha. Drone Swarm (no, not just EC-300/-600s, either).
As well, you don't necessarily have to kill the logi, you just have to put it to flight or temporarily nullify its functionality, and ECM is not the only way to do it, especially given that the other E-War/Cap-war are not chance-based. Stealth Bomber bombs and covert-bridging in hisec naow, please: It's the only way to make sure! |
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Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
363
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Posted - 2012.10.16 06:41:00 -
[21] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote: [...] there are zero ECM counters, apart from triage/siege which makes you immune but only useable by 2 classes of ships for very specific roles.
this argument has been done to death, ECM and ESPECIALLY EC drones need a full reworking.
ECCM and overheating of same. Sensor Backup Array Signal Amplifier FoF missiles Drones Extreme range alpha-sniping (Tornado does this well) Cloaky getting warp-in on ECM boat (He'll have to target his aggressors first to try and jam them, and Caldari cruiser-plus size ships have rather slow lock-times) ECM of your own
1/10.
Next!
Stealth Bomber bombs and covert-bridging in hisec naow, please: It's the only way to make sure! |
Omega Sunset
Caldari Roughnecks
62
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Posted - 2012.10.16 07:16:00 -
[22] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote: ECM of your own
Yep, all that and especially this. I keep at least one on hand in nearly every ship and ready to overload. ECM ships are defeatable, unfortunately laziness isn't. The list could be twice as long, and the tears the same nontheless out of lack of game tactics understanding. |
Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
93
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Posted - 2012.10.16 07:49:00 -
[23] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:neuts, damps, alpha are all good logi counters. there are zero ECM counters, apart from triage/siege which makes you immune but only useable by 2 classes of ships for very specific roles.
I always encourage new pilots to do the tutorial and read the various articles about how stuff (incl. ECM) works before posting in a thread about game mechanics. This guy did you a favor by posting various counters:
Lyrrashae wrote:
ECCM and overheating of same. Sensor Backup Array Signal Amplifier FoF missiles Drones Extreme range alpha-sniping (Tornado does this well) Cloaky getting warp-in on ECM boat (He'll have to target his aggressors first to try and jam them, and Caldari cruiser-plus size ships have rather slow lock-times) ECM of your own
Adding Remote ECCM here. |
pussnheels
The Fiction Factory
634
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Posted - 2012.10.16 07:56:00 -
[24] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:Jack Miton wrote: [...] there are zero ECM counters, apart from triage/siege which makes you immune but only useable by 2 classes of ships for very specific roles.
this argument has been done to death, ECM and ESPECIALLY EC drones need a full reworking. ECCM and overheating of same. Sensor Backup Array Signal Amplifier FoF missiles Drones Extreme range alpha-sniping (Tornado does this well) Cloaky getting warp-in on ECM boat (He'll have to target his aggressors first to try and jam them, and Caldari cruiser-plus size ships have rather slow lock-times) ECM of your own 1/10. Next! best answer ever to a nerf ECM whine I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
294
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Posted - 2012.10.16 07:58:00 -
[25] - Quote
ECM is fine, you guys are just bad. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9895
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Posted - 2012.10.16 08:26:00 -
[26] - Quote
Omega Sunset wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:ECM of your own Yep, all that and especially this. Too bad that this line of argumentation only ever proves that something is in desperate need of being nerfedGǪ
GǪand anyway, the whole Gǣrandom stunGǥ effect of ECM means it manages to combine two inherently awful game mechanics in one and needs to be changed anyway.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Omega Sunset
Caldari Roughnecks
62
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Posted - 2012.10.16 09:01:00 -
[27] - Quote
Tippia wrote:that this line of argumentation only ever proves that something is in desperate need of being nerfedGǪ ehh... it's a personal preference, as in I don't snipe or op tornados etc. I don't get the bonus on my non-ecm ships, thus the ready to blow out an expensive component to survive, comment. It's what stops me in my ecm ships anyway, to warp out or get distance with my mwd. Even a snipe can be nasty in a flying origami. If you ever do ecm support, you know you don't have slots to spare for most anything else. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9895
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Posted - 2012.10.16 09:18:00 -
[28] - Quote
Omega Sunset wrote:Tippia wrote:that this line of argumentation only ever proves that something is in desperate need of being nerfedGǪ ehh... it's a personal preference, as in I don't snipe or op tornados etc. I don't get the bonus on my non-ecm ships, thus the ready to blow out an expensive component to survive, comment. It's what stops me in my ecm ships anyway, to warp out or get distance with my mwd. Even a snipe can be nasty in a flying origami. If you ever do ecm support, you know you don't have slots to spare for most anything else. And that may all be true.
My point is that the instant you hear the GÇ£bring some of your ownGÇ¥ argument, you know that whatever it is you're talking about is up for the chop. It means we have an apex-predator kind of situation, and those are deeply undesirable in a working game. It was the same situation (and the same argument) we saw with nanos, with supercaps, with neuts, withGǪ [etc]. It has become an increasingly common argument for leaving ECM alone, and that really only points to one thing: it will not be left alone. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Marzuq
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
21
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Posted - 2012.10.16 09:27:00 -
[29] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Omega Sunset wrote:Tippia wrote:that this line of argumentation only ever proves that something is in desperate need of being nerfedGǪ ehh... it's a personal preference, as in I don't snipe or op tornados etc. I don't get the bonus on my non-ecm ships, thus the ready to blow out an expensive component to survive, comment. It's what stops me in my ecm ships anyway, to warp out or get distance with my mwd. Even a snipe can be nasty in a flying origami. If you ever do ecm support, you know you don't have slots to spare for most anything else. And that may all be true. My point is that the instant you hear the Gǣbring some of your ownGǥ argument, you know that whatever it is you're talking about is up for the chop. It means we have an apex-predator kind of situation, and those are deeply undesirable in a working game. It was the same situation (and the same argument) we saw with nanos, with supercaps, with neuts, withGǪ [etc]. It has become an increasingly common argument for leaving ECM alone, and that really only points to one thing: it will not be left alone.
Just like Logi's bring some of your own. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4918
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Posted - 2012.10.16 09:36:00 -
[30] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Energy Neutralizers.
12km medium neuts work super well as a counter to 71km Logi reps! MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
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