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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.04.09 18:35:00 -
[1]
Edited by: DrunkenOne on 09/04/2005 18:36:09 I mean seriously, great ship and i love it (the damage is o_O) but what genius thought up "Hey, on the wolf lets give it 2x more armor than shields, give it 2 mids 4 lows to armor tank... and then put uber resists on the shield!!!" I mean yeah, 92.5% EM resist on the armor is sick, but I'd trade that for the 4 high resists that the shields have. With only 2 mids its not only stupid but impossible to shield tank. The jag has the same problem, but with 3 mids it can at least fit on a shield booster.
The other assaults all have only 1 low resist on their tank (gallante with explosive, caldari with EM, etc). But minnys have 2...
Oh well, no one really uses explosive damage anyways
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0seeker0
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Posted - 2005.04.09 18:40:00 -
[2]
Edited by: 0seeker0 on 09/04/2005 18:42:08 Yeah i noticed this, its odd indeed. 3/3 would have been a nicer slot layout, maybe 4/2 but then the caldai wouldnt be happy.
Pretty daft. small armour rep, 1 exp 1 kin 1 damage mod, or just say balls to it, 1 small rep 3 damage mods (and what, standard launcher? havnt had one yet, cpu prolly wouldnt fit on second thoughts)
San. Character "Widescreen" is a scammer; beware.
Check my bio for a list of known scammers.
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Hyey
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Posted - 2005.04.09 18:53:00 -
[3]
Originally by: 0seeker0 Edited by: 0seeker0 on 09/04/2005 18:42:08 Yeah i noticed this, its odd indeed. 3/3 would have been a nicer slot layout, maybe 4/2 but then the caldai wouldnt be happy.
Pretty daft. small armour rep, 1 exp 1 kin 1 damage mod, or just say balls to it, 1 small rep 3 damage mods (and what, standard launcher? havnt had one yet, cpu prolly wouldnt fit on second thoughts)
San.
Caldari can cry me a freaking river tbh. They already have 4/5 of the ships in the game that have 5 mids or more. Raven Scorp Ferox and Blackbird. ... Tempest is the only other one. 4/2 would be wonderful for wolf if you ask me and I dont even think caldari would ***** smack a storm by being suck in one thing :/ ~~ Hyey
I just payed 15 dollars this month just to be able to respond on the forums... stupid cancellation error.
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Ortu Konsinni
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Posted - 2005.04.09 19:02:00 -
[4]
But a 5/4/2 setup & shield tanking the Wolf would require that its capacitor and CPU be increased, wouldn't it?
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Takrolimus
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Posted - 2005.04.09 19:03:00 -
[5]
The wolf used correctly is one of the best and hardest to kill frigates in the game.
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Weirda
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Posted - 2005.04.09 19:22:00 -
[6]
Does anyone understand why the resists are the way that they are? Every time Weirda see a thread like this - nearly die.
Let's recap: Race: Primary Damage/Secondary Damage Amarr: EM/TH Caldari: KIN/TH Galliente: TH/KIN Matari: EX/KIN
Now - stay with Weirda here....... Race: Primary Resist/Secondary Resist/NATURAL ENEMY Amarr: EX/KIN - Matari Caldari: TH/KIN - Galliente Galliente: KIN/TH - Caldari Matari: EM/TH - Amarr
Go figure - the shipbuilders extended the resists against the NATURAL ENEMY of the race!
Now - Weirda is sure that many of you don't care about this, but it is actually an interesting web that makes a lot of sense when you look at the big picture. Connect the dots... Try it - you might like it!
*Weirda sits back and waits for a caldari to come around saying - "Don't care about the story - Caldari are supposed to be the uberest shield tankers - where is my EM resist..." -- Thread Killer
<END TRANSMISSION> |
DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.04.09 19:35:00 -
[7]
Edited by: DrunkenOne on 09/04/2005 19:36:24
Originally by: Weirda Does anyone understand why the resists are the way that they are? Every time Weirda see a thread like this - nearly die.
Let's recap: Race: Primary Damage/Secondary Damage Amarr: EM/TH Caldari: KIN/TH Galliente: TH/KIN Matari: EX/KIN
Now - stay with Weirda here....... Race: Primary Resist/Secondary Resist/NATURAL ENEMY Amarr: EX/KIN - Matari Caldari: TH/KIN - Galliente Galliente: KIN/TH - Caldari Matari: EM/TH - Amarr
Go figure - the shipbuilders extended the resists against the NATURAL ENEMY of the race!
Now - Weirda is sure that many of you don't care about this, but it is actually an interesting web that makes a lot of sense when you look at the big picture. Connect the dots... Try it - you might like it!
*Weirda sits back and waits for a caldari to come around saying - "Don't care about the story - Caldari are supposed to be the uberest shield tankers - where is my EM resist..."
I dont think you understand at all what Im saying. For example, I also fly an enyo.
Enyo has uber kinetic and thermal resists cause their enemy does that. BUT THEY ALSO HAVE 60% EM RESIST.
Here is a list of the resists of the "damage" assault frigs for each race: Enyo 60/10/83.75/67.5 Retribution 60/80/62.5/35 Harpy (shield resists)0/60/70/80 ...all 3 high +1 low resists
Then look at the wolf 92.5/10/25/67.5 TWO low resists.
Explain the reasoning behind that.
Minmatar get the shaft again.
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DARTHxFREE
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Posted - 2005.04.09 19:45:00 -
[8]
Edited by: DARTHxFREE on 09/04/2005 19:46:53 ok i bothered to read on...u have a point
>:-E3 !!!rrraY I'm an anti pirate,...life's the wrong way round. |
Selim
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Posted - 2005.04.09 20:08:00 -
[9]
It is a real pain, the minmatar resists are only good against lasers and suck on everything else.
The other races only need to harden one resistance to get a full tank.
Caldari just need EM, Gallente need explosive, amarr need thermal, and... oh, minmatar need explosive -and- kinetic. On shields, they don't have a single resistance above 60% besides EM so its anyones guess as to what to harden. It is nice that there is balance resists for shields, but the fact remains that its alot easier to slap one hardener on the other ones and get 80% resists in almost anything.
This WOULD be fixed, if the invulnerability field was an inactive item and used no cap, just like the energized adaptive nanos.
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Bruchpilot
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Posted - 2005.04.09 20:28:00 -
[10]
Well, I have a good setup on my Wolf but there are some things which make me upset:
Harpy: 175 CPU, 50 MW powergrid Wolf: 125 CPU, 48 MW powergrid
WTF? I agree that Caldari should have the best cpu to be able to fit rails but why do they have the better grid either? I know that a Harpy is hard to fit because of cpu but the Wolf lacks on both, grid and cpu!
The slot layout on the Wolf is fine. It's meant to deal great damage and shield tank. Just give it 600 shield/300 armor and a bit more cpu and I'd be lucky.
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Darius Shakor
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Posted - 2005.04.09 20:33:00 -
[11]
Hmm, ok I can see your points to an extent, but hear me out on this one.
For the casual player, they will always fly what they see as being the toughest against everything. So... they would not chose the wolf by your analysis, and I would not blame them either.
What we have here though, is not a simple shafting of the Minmatar players and ships, but a dice roll that has landed this way. After all, every ship has had only two of their four resistes increased based on their main races enemies choice of damage types. For the minmatar, this just happens to be the Amarr who are fond of the laser.
So the ship builders in the Minmatar corps have looked at this and said "Hey, lets just increase the resistes ot Thermal and EM." and done just that. Yes, this does leave us with a predicemant where we have 2 resists on the armour that is lower than 50%.
But I do not view this as being shafted for that reason, and for this one too. As I said, a casual player can chose what ship they want and go for it without worrying too much about image. Now, I am a role player and as a main rule of the thumb, I will stick to Minmatar ships where I see fit to. Have I been shafted? Not really because my main enemy will be the Amarr flying the Amarr ships and using lasers anyway so really, I have things rather tasty. Not to mention that Minmatar can pick their damage type depending on the ammo loaded in the projectiles making us mroe dangerous to the Amarr AF's than they are to us. (At least in theory.)
For once, we have not been shafted by this like we have been with other ships such as the Cyclone that can neither be shield tanked effectively, or armour tanked to save it's bacon when crunch time comes.
So to recap, Wolf is great against lasers, and only those that have mainly Amarrian players as targets will chose to fly a wolf because of that. Anyone else has the option to fly anything else because they can train anything else. Makes sense? ------
Analysis[Ceasefire]....Complete - 'Term given to the act of firing, causing the ceasation of the life it is directed at |
Meridius
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Posted - 2005.04.09 20:36:00 -
[12]
The Wolf is awesome.
Stop freaking whining ________________________________________________________
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.04.09 20:39:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Meridius The Wolf is awesome.
Stop freaking whining
Maybe when you stop whining about pulses.
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Darius Shakor
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Posted - 2005.04.09 20:40:00 -
[14]
Originally by: DrunkenOne
Originally by: Meridius The Wolf is awesome.
Stop freaking whining
Maybe when you stop whining about pulses.
Swish. ------
Analysis[Ceasefire]....Complete - 'Term given to the act of firing, causing the ceasation of the life it is directed at |
Meridius
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Posted - 2005.04.09 20:41:00 -
[15]
Originally by: DrunkenOne
Originally by: Meridius The Wolf is awesome.
Stop freaking whining
Maybe when you stop whining about pulses.
Is the Wolf getting nerfed ________________________________________________________
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.04.09 20:48:00 -
[16]
Meridius is right though. The Wolf is fine. If anything its the Vengeance and Retribution that need help.
/Elve
New Video out! Watch me!
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Darius Shakor
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Posted - 2005.04.09 21:12:00 -
[17]
Oddly enough, I slightly agree. I was thinking about this a moment ago and wondered how the devs actualy decided what resistances to put up for the Amarr AF's. After all, Minmatar, as I said, can chose their damage types to an extent as all damage tupes are covered in some combination or another in the projectile ammo. Guess they might have looked at which ones were more common, though i don't know if this is really true. I was actually thinking that maybe they should have had two types of resistance changes for each ship. One is mainly for taking hybrid weapons so it protects against Kinetic and Thermal, and the other against Thermal and Exlosive. Though this might actually create more mess than it is worth in practice. Makes one think though... ------
Analysis[Ceasefire]....Complete - 'Term given to the act of firing, causing the ceasation of the life it is directed at |
Arimas Talasko
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Posted - 2005.04.09 21:28:00 -
[18]
Good lord would any of you fools just read Weirda's bloody post. Good grief. It's so simple. Who cares if the wolf has just two high resists. What you think that it would be balanced if the wolf got extra resists to all four damage types? No that would be retarded. They all get two extra resists. Not four. The math isn't supposed to balance out. Geez louise. Two. Two. Against EM and Thermal which are used by Amarr. Who take Minmatars like you as Slaves. The Wolf is a mighty ship. Retribution and Vengeance, those are not. But no one really cares that much about those two Except maybe Meridius and Istvaan Shogatsu and even them I don't think that much. If at all. Supremacy Keepin it Real |
Alyth
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Posted - 2005.04.09 21:44:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: DrunkenOne
Originally by: Meridius The Wolf is awesome.
Stop freaking whining
Maybe when you stop whining about pulses.
Is the Wolf getting nerfed
Neither are pulse, they is getting fixered
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Meridius
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Posted - 2005.04.09 21:50:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Meridius on 09/04/2005 21:50:17
Originally by: Alyth
Neither are pulse, they is getting fixered
Originally by: Hammerhead Pulse Laser Nerf
Right ________________________________________________________
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Alyth
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Posted - 2005.04.09 22:09:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Meridius Edited by: Meridius on 09/04/2005 21:50:17
Originally by: Alyth
Neither are pulse, they is getting fixered
Originally by: Hammerhead Pulse Laser Nerf
Right
Wrong thread to start this discussion I guess but...
No...not nerfed, fixed.
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Selim
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Posted - 2005.04.09 23:07:00 -
[22]
Weirda is right... but that doesn't mean the wolf is where it should be at.
I mean, despite its good alpha strikes, there's not much good about it. Its actually the least damaging overall assault frigate, of the ones with 5 weapons (retribution included despite having 4). And its, as this thread is about, not a very good tank, although thats really the issue about its capacitor.
I can live with that, though. Its relatively fast, its cheap and its fun to fly. What I can't live with, though, is that its ******* hard to fit. Less power -and- cpu than an enyo? The caldari one having more powergrid? Give me a break. Its by far the hardest ship I've ever had to fit. Its also the first time I've ever actually used both every last mw and tf, down to the decimals, and that was on a compromise setup.
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Helmut 314
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Posted - 2005.04.09 23:13:00 -
[23]
And being able to volleykill tech 1 frigates is a bad thing ?
The ass frigs are all quite different from each other. Jaguar tanks pretty ok and is very fast, Wolf does crazy volley damage, Enyo owns close up or at a distance, Vengeance is very versatile and popular as a solo hunter, Retribution is an excellent anti-inty ship. Harpy is very deadly and Hawk can shieldtank like no other frig.
*points at the box* think outside it, Selim.
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Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson |
Selim
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Posted - 2005.04.09 23:16:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Selim on 09/04/2005 23:26:31 Edited by: Selim on 09/04/2005 23:25:33
Originally by: Helmut 314 And being able to volleykill tech 1 frigates is a bad thing ?
The ass frigs are all quite different from each other. Jaguar tanks pretty ok and is very fast, Wolf does crazy volley damage, Enyo owns close up or at a distance, Vengeance is very versatile and popular as a solo hunter, Retribution is an excellent anti-inty ship. Harpy is very deadly and Hawk can shieldtank like no other frig.
*points at the box* think outside it, Selim.
Are you kidding me? Did you even read my post?
I said I'm fine with the fact that it sucks at anything except one volley damage.
I said I'm NOT fine with how hard the ****** is to fit.
oh, by the way, I can easily volleykill tech 1 frigs in a retribution, enyo or harpy. I don't see 'able to own tech 1 frigs' as an amazing trait in an assault frigate.* So all of you can get all giddy about how you are totally owning that condor over there, and I'll pick a ship that performs more worthwhile roles, like doing more damage per second and tanking better while being easier to fit.
*Besides, thats an issue for the guns, not the ship. The ship itself is near impossible to fit. If that was fixed I'd rest my case.
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Kashre
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Posted - 2005.04.09 23:25:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Kashre on 09/04/2005 23:25:48
Quote: What we have here though, is not a simple shafting of the Minmatar players and ships, but a dice roll that has landed this way. After all, every ship has had only two of their four resistes increased based on their main races enemies choice of damage types. For the minmatar, this just happens to be the Amarr who are fond of the laser.
That might be true, but it doesnt really hold up in the "real world". Amarr might be the natural role-playing enemy, but even in an RP sense the designers who made the wolf should have been able to look around at eve and see that every races ships get used against every other races ships, since there are no mechanics in physics of the eve universe to make flying ones own race preferable over any other race, its all a matter of style, choise and who has the best stuff.
Even assuming that (RP-wise) the resistance bonuses available to the minmatar are limited to EM/Thermal by technology, youd think the engineers that designed the thing would have been smart enough to give it a slot layout that suited itself to shield tanking rather than armor tanking.
Not that I dont like the wolf... And TBH I wouldnt want to see it get 4 mids since I like armor tanking and damage mods with the option of putting useful stuff in mids, like EW or propulsion jamming. I just dont think the design of the wolf makes much sense, because saying "oh well the amarr are the enemy" is a gross simplification of the way the eve universe actually works. +++
It's called "low security space" for a reason. |
Selim
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Posted - 2005.04.09 23:32:00 -
[26]
You know, I actually thought of a solution to that.
Instead of the current system, we could have the primary racial defense hardened against the racial enemy, and the secondary defense hardened against the race that is not their friend.
So basically, minmatar's primary defense (shield) would be hardened versus amarr, while secondary defense (armor) would be hardened versus caldari, because they are the enemies of the gallente, who are the minmatar allies.
In effect it would be 75% EM 50% therm boost on shields, and 75% kin 50% therm boost on armor.
It would be the same for everyone else.
In effect, all the races would only really have to harden one resistance type to get everything to 60% or above.
For more examples:
Caldari: Primary defense (shield) 75% therm 50% kin, armor 75% explosive 50% kin gallente: primary defense armor: 75% kin 50% therm, shield 75% EM 50% therm amarr: same as caldari
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Kashre
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Posted - 2005.04.09 23:40:00 -
[27]
I kinda like that idea Selim. Makes a lot more sense. +++
It's called "low security space" for a reason. |
Skelator
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Posted - 2005.04.10 00:20:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Skelator on 10/04/2005 00:20:24
Originally by: Meridius The Wolf is awesome.
Stop freaking whining
I wholeheartedly agree and its a Awesome shield-tank to boot (no you cant have our setups)
They have us Surrounded again.. the Poor Bastards |
Eraza
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Posted - 2005.04.10 01:33:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Hyey ... Caldari can cry me a freaking river tbh. They already have 4/5 of the ships in the game that have 5 mids or more. Raven Scorp Ferox and Blackbird. ... Tempest is the only other one. 4/2 would be wonderful for wolf if you ask me and I dont even think caldari would ***** smack a storm by being suck in one thing :/
/emote slaps Hyey with the videly underestimated dominix i agree though, caldari have plenty of very good ships, it would not hurt anyone to fix the gimped ships some of the other races have..
and the ships like the retribution(one med slot? only one?) the brutix(1000mw powergrid? 325 cpu? for SEVEN turrets?) ..and of course ALL the logistics crusiers... where you stop, scratch your head, and try to understand the point.. then after some testing, and thinking.. you point at it, laugh your *beep* off, and then go back to using ships that actually work properly
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Weirda
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Posted - 2005.04.10 02:53:00 -
[30]
[email protected]
-- Thread Killer
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