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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
930
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Posted - 2015.01.30 16:31:04 -
[1741] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Helios Panala wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:This assumes that hisec traders will travel through losec, they won't. Every hisec player who has responded here has stated this. Except me. I would. They could pay me to do it for them if they like . I doubt I'm the only one who would. There's plenty of players who will go into losec. my point is that those who won't would not suddenly think "I'd better start using losec now" if you implemented this idea. These players are happy where they are and need to be given an incentive that is attractive to them to try different areas. If they are happy where they are, then this change doesn't affect them at all. But it will reward those who are willing to take the risk. Separate markets in the four faction spaces will create more price gaps, fluctuations in supply and therefore more opportunities.
They are happy where they are as in hisec as it is now, change that and you mess with a lot of paystyles unecessarily.
Also it wouldn't create opportunities as such since everyone would simply move to one system region, probably Jita as its the biggest currently for the simplicity of buying and selling. Interfere with the game that they also pay for to play and they'll be wondering where else to spend there cash. It's a balancing act and screwing around with something that works fine to provide easy target for those in losec is just never going to work out well. |
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
382
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Posted - 2015.01.30 16:36:01 -
[1742] - Quote
Why is their happiness more important than others? Why is their "playstyle" so important? Who says this change is unnecessary?
People use the other hubs now because they happen to be closer to them.
Please note that everyone pays for this game, not only the people who sit in hisec with their victim mentality.
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Zimmer Jones
Aliastra Gallente Federation
91
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Posted - 2015.01.30 17:24:51 -
[1743] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:
- That's the fastest route already today, so the closure of Yuhelia has not caused changes. Entry is Huola, exit is Raa.
- Let's avoid Huola because it's a popular entry system on the route and camped. Entry now is Kamela, exit is still Raa. You might also notice that the 3 systems before Raa have not changed, so they are very nice camping systems as people must pass through there. Despite 2 different entry points. Next.
- Since Kamela is also a nice entry system and one of the core systems in TBL, we do not want to enter from their either. Entry now is Saikamon, exit still Raa, still a very good camping systems. You might also notice that this route is already 20 jumps long, up from 12 in the first and 13 in the second example. Now:
- We do not want to go via Raa anymore, instead we avoid it and take another route. Entry now is Sosala, exit is Sosala. Or Kamela, but then we are back in a very popular system for camps.
So, effectively we have 5 different routes. 2 lead through the same systems, 3 have the same entry point, 3 the same exit. The last 2 examples with the single Low sec system will be among the prime camp systems as they obviously require the lowest Low sec exposure, however, I doubt that the newly introduced Low sec areas had such short Low sec bridges. Even if, they'd be completely out of question to use. That leaves me with 3 routes, all via very similar or the same systems. And these systems are easily campable by a limited number of people. Now tell me that this is not a choke point or that it requires too much effort to shut these systems down.
Your route assume gates will only be cut, and no additional gates created. In the past CCP have rerouted to break up a trade hub and yes this would be on a much larger scale. The seperation also does not mean there won't be highsec Islands in the clustering of lowsec systems, which I would expect to be the case, forming "depots" because as you probably guess, people will try to avoid the risk of the initial jumps via blops, associated blockade runners, and jump freighters.
The new jump rules would require something like to exist, for people to trade off pilots, or if they do not have multiple jump toons, to rest. If they do not want to make the rest of the trip, minor island trade hub(s) would be incentive to bring people through those systems.
Speaking as someone who has consistently made it through multiple double sided 8+ person gatecamps in a blockade runner through 1 system choke points(spent time in omist and made frequent trips through torrinos/EC-pr8 choke point sans blops), and JFs from Deklein/pure blind (npc) to Daras slowboating from daras to nonni repeatedly, I see no difficulties in hauling. Proper tools for the job, and proper rewards for training, risk and investment in JF's.
That was all done on this toon, and while my KB is obviously laughable(including that raven BP-ah the joys of being a newbie), there is not one loss of a freighter or jump freighter. Luck, scouts, timing, proper cyno placement. The losses I have incurred are through me being dumb, not because I was caught in a gate camp. And I am BAD at eve.
For the regular joe sixpack wanting to get from empire to empire, once again, timing and scouts. Sure you can solo jump and hope and pray after reading the stats in the maps, and gatecampers may be happy. It would not take too much effort to camp the narrowest path gates as you have said, or you can hire someone to move your stuff with collateral and buy your ship in another empire if that hauler fails.
I still state that if there are multiple choice routes to get to and from the same system, even just 2, it is not a choke point and there is a choice regardless of effort to camp those gates. |
Van Beyus
Hedion University Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2015.01.30 18:00:46 -
[1744] - Quote
I think this change is bad because it changes the game. And we all know that anything that changes the game is bad. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi
1163
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Posted - 2015.01.30 18:03:57 -
[1745] - Quote
Naturally, there will be new gates if there's new systems added to the universe. But I cannot assume where they are or if they come. Hence, I took the only example I know that resembles remotely what such a choke point region could look like.
With your examples of Aunenen or EC- you don't even get close to what is bound to happen in these new low sec systems. The economic value of the Pietanen constellation or Tribute, any 00 up there to be honest, is not comparable to what is transported between Jita and Amarr daily. Absolutely no system's camp indices of today's low sec choke points is comparable to the importance of such new low sec routes between the major hubs, especially if people like you feel adventurous. No NOBODY camp in Aunenen, no Rancer, no EC-, no HED-, no Hier, no PF-, no Oulley, no 7Q, no N-RAEL, no M-O etc comes close to what these systems camp potential will be. Multiple routes or not, every viable entry and important pass-through systems will be easily campable and will be camped. |
HTC NecoSino
No Vacancies
134
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Posted - 2015.01.30 18:04:55 -
[1746] - Quote
I'm sure it's already been mentioned, but why not variable security?
The more "illegal" acts that happen in a system, the lower the sec status. Alternatively, the more "good" acts (killing suspect/criminals, running security missions, etc) raise the sec status. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi
1163
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Posted - 2015.01.30 18:17:20 -
[1747] - Quote
HTC NecoSino wrote:I'm sure it's already been mentioned, but why not variable security?
The more "illegal" acts that happen in a system, the lower the sec status. Alternatively, the more "good" acts (killing suspect/criminals, running security missions, etc) raise the sec status. Capitals. Drug Labs. Pirates. Reaction Towers. For instance. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
930
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Posted - 2015.01.30 18:25:40 -
[1748] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:Why is their happiness more important than others? Why is their "playstyle" so important? Who says this change is unnecessary?
Their happiness and playstyle isn't more important, but then neither is the losec gate campers' that this change would pander to.
Aiyshimin wrote: People use the other hubs now because they happen to be closer to them.
And if its made impossible to travel between hubs without losec traversal then those players would simply move to the biggest hub for convenience.
Aiyshimin wrote: Please note that everyone pays for this game, not only the people who sit in hisec with their victim mentality.
That was my point, the hisec folks pay for the game just as much as the losec/null/WH players. Why should they have an inherent nerf on income foisted upon them to suit one are of the game? They need to be enticed into other areas as force simply will not work. |
HTC NecoSino
No Vacancies
135
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Posted - 2015.01.30 19:03:21 -
[1749] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:HTC NecoSino wrote:I'm sure it's already been mentioned, but why not variable security?
The more "illegal" acts that happen in a system, the lower the sec status. Alternatively, the more "good" acts (killing suspect/criminals, running security missions, etc) raise the sec status. Capitals. Drug Labs. Pirates. Reaction Towers. For instance.
Right, so you end up with a pull from both sides, people wanting to raise the status and those wanting to lower it. Maybe it could be region-based, so people running HS missions next door lead to the LS system slowly raising its sec status.
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Zimmer Jones
Aliastra Gallente Federation
91
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Posted - 2015.01.30 19:15:50 -
[1750] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Their happiness and playstyle isn't more important, but then neither is the losec gate campers' that this change would pander to.
And if its made impossible to travel between hubs without losec traversal then those players would simply move to the biggest hub for convenience.
That was my point, the hisec folks pay for the game just as much as the losec/null/WH players. Why should they have an inherent nerf on income foisted upon them to suit one are of the game? They need to be enticed into other areas as force simply will not work.
In the interest of copy pasting later to save time:
Nobody is forcing anybody anywhere, they are restricting absurdly open borders. Risk adverse players will gather at the biggest hub they see to be the most profitable for their usage and play style. To claim everyone will only flock to ONE region is rediculous. There are plenty of things in each region that are not available readily in the others, the demand for things that are not available will drive the price to a point where they are worth moving, either by market saturation or scarcity.
Multi-Market and empire diversity is not a nerf, it is much the opposite, allowing more people to get in on the game by shaking up a market long cornered and stagnant. How are they to be enticed to lowsec? The only way can be: profit
You may be willing to go through lowsec as you have claimed in other posts, but claim that others will not. Good. You would profit, and others would profit from you. Nothing stops people from having alts in other empires. Hiring you to move their things, or just selling to you and you profit from the demand elsewhere.
ED: removed a poor choice of quote |
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Helios Panala
26
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Posted - 2015.01.30 19:39:31 -
[1751] - Quote
I don't think many people avoid low-sec because they think it's some scary dangerous place, they avoid it because at the end of the day going there is pretty pointless for them. This would add an immediate reason to go & fight in low, it creates a reason to bring high-sec players together to do something.
High-sec is currently to safe and frankly a bit to unfair in it's application of what danger does exist, breaking it all up into pockets of high-sec with dangerous roads between would be a good start to rectifying that. |
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
385
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Posted - 2015.01.30 21:52:46 -
[1752] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: That was my point, the hisec folks pay for the game just as much as the losec/null/WH players. Why should they have an inherent nerf on income foisted upon them to suit one are of the game? They need to be enticed into other areas as force simply will not work.
What nerf to income? This wouldn't have any effect on bounties etc. The enticements are already there, if they don't want to make more it's their loss tbh.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
932
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Posted - 2015.01.30 23:17:12 -
[1753] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: That was my point, the hisec folks pay for the game just as much as the losec/null/WH players. Why should they have an inherent nerf on income foisted upon them to suit one are of the game? They need to be enticed into other areas as force simply will not work.
What nerf to income? This wouldn't have any effect on bounties etc. The enticements are already there, if they don't want to make more it's their loss tbh.
The nerf to income that would people be required to force people to use losec otherwise why would they? squash into smaller areas and produce more of the same items from ratting. The nerf that would come for traders and manufacturers who now either have to buy more expensive items from the market or pay people to haul them across losec(which would obviously be the same large groups who could easily camp the main routes)
The nerf that would come from prices on modules crashing as more squash into smaller areas and produce more of the same items from ratting. The nerf that would come for traders and manufacturers who now either have to buy more expensive items from the market or pay people to haul them across losec(which would obviously be the same large groups who could easily camp the main routes).
If there was not a nerf to hisec income why would people go through losec? Even if they did it would be in BR's or inty's that would never be seen/caught unless there are choke points that can be camped by instlock groups.
As you say the enticements are already there so clearly those players have nil interest in losec. Adding more losec space between the empires would do nothing but stifle the trade and manufacturoing sectors that thrive there. |
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
385
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Posted - 2015.01.31 00:15:57 -
[1754] - Quote
I'm sorry but now you are confusing inability and impotence with nerfs. New opportunities, new gameplay, new markets aren't nerfs to anyone.
For everyone who has to pay more, there's someone who gains more.
Being weak and incapable of adaptation is nerfing yourself. If the players you describe exist, they don't need CCP to hold them down.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
934
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Posted - 2015.01.31 02:00:36 -
[1755] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:I'm sorry but now you are confusing inability and impotence with nerfs. New opportunities, new gameplay, new markets aren't nerfs to anyone.
For everyone who has to pay more, there's someone who gains more.
Being weak and incapable of adaptation is nerfing yourself. If the players you describe exist, they don't need CCP to hold them down.
They aren't weak and incapable as you put it (remember this is just a game, you know? Funa nd that...) they have a different focus. Of course they would adapt and I've said how I believe they would do this. If they can no longer enjoy the game the way they wish (within reason, most people welcome change in some areas ) they will quit , and this would* affect CCP and the rest of us. |
Helios Panala
27
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Posted - 2015.01.31 02:58:02 -
[1756] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:They aren't weak and incapable as you put it (remember this is just a game, you know? Funa nd that...) they have a different focus. Of course they would adapt and I've said how I believe they would do this. If they can no longer enjoy the game the way they wish (within reason, most people welcome change in some areas ) they will quit , and this would* affect CCP and the rest of us.
I doubt any section of the playerbase would leave in large numbers as a result of this proposed change. I don't think high-sec carebears are as risk-averse as they're commonly made out to be. My theory is they just don't see the point in fighting when most of the time nothing will be gained from it. The opportunity to fight players to clear camps to get freight through to make isk though? I think quite a few would go for that.
Basically I don't think you're giving high-sec players enough credit. |
Commander Ted
Sudden Buggery Prolapse.
1224
|
Posted - 2015.01.31 03:15:31 -
[1757] - Quote
Helios Panala wrote:
I doubt any section of the playerbase would leave in large numbers as a result of this proposed change. I don't think high-sec carebears are as risk-averse as they're commonly made out to be. My theory is they just don't see the point in fighting when most of the time nothing will be gained from it. The opportunity to fight players to clear camps to get freight through to make isk though? I think quite a few would go for that.
Basically I don't think you're giving high-sec players enough credit.
More people than you think have easily rustled jimmies.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
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Miss Everest
Elysium Accord
4
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Posted - 2015.01.31 06:12:06 -
[1758] - Quote
This isnt bad but I would rather just have Jita and systems around Jita be owned and run by Concord with links to all the empires! That would be a true tradehub... but that would never happen. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2305
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Posted - 2015.01.31 06:38:39 -
[1759] - Quote
What if CONCORD just didn't respond as fast to capital ship ganks? Now there's more reason to go through lowsec. Leave highsec chokepoints, but make a whole bunch of alternate paths through lowsec all with similar numbers of jumps. Lowsec might end up being the safer option.
CSM X: Sabriz Adoudel, Mike Azariah, Sugar Kyle, Corbexx, Jenshae Chiroptera
Highsec reform thread
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Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
386
|
Posted - 2015.01.31 07:37:58 -
[1760] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:They aren't weak and incapable as you put it (remember this is just a game, you know? Funa nd that...) they have a different focus. Of course they would adapt and I've said how I believe they would do this. If they can no longer enjoy the game the way they wish (within reason, most people welcome change in some areas ) they will quit , and this would* affect CCP and the rest of us.
No they are just as weak as incapable in this game as you put it. Remember this is a game, you know? Games have winners and loosers, good players and bad players.
Sometimes bad players get tired of being losers and either become good or give up. MMOs are about the players as much as the game itself, and most players rather play with good than bad players. There'll be new players. |
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
936
|
Posted - 2015.01.31 10:11:18 -
[1761] - Quote
Helios Panala wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:They aren't weak and incapable as you put it (remember this is just a game, you know? Funa nd that...) they have a different focus. Of course they would adapt and I've said how I believe they would do this. If they can no longer enjoy the game the way they wish (within reason, most people welcome change in some areas ) they will quit , and this would* affect CCP and the rest of us. I doubt any section of the playerbase would leave in large numbers as a result of this proposed change. I don't think high-sec carebears are as risk-averse as they're commonly made out to be. My theory is they just don't see the point in fighting when most of the time nothing will be gained from it. The opportunity to fight players to clear camps to get freight through to make isk though? I think quite a few would go for that. Basically I don't think you're giving high-sec players enough credit.
I'm pointing out the responses made here by hisec only players. They do not want to fight and therefore wouldn't. They would stay where they are or simply learn to bypass losec with WH's or BR's. This proposal would not lead to more losec living without nerfing hisec income possibilities into the ground which would then destroy a large chunk of manufacturing at least. Thaat's why I can't support the proposal |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
936
|
Posted - 2015.01.31 10:21:22 -
[1762] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:They aren't weak and incapable as you put it (remember this is just a game, you know? Funa nd that...) they have a different focus. Of course they would adapt and I've said how I believe they would do this. If they can no longer enjoy the game the way they wish (within reason, most people welcome change in some areas ) they will quit , and this would* affect CCP and the rest of us. No they are just as weak as incapable in this game as you put it. Remember this is a game, you know? Games have winners and loosers, good players and bad players. Sometimes bad players get tired of being losers and either become good or give up. MMOs are about the players as much as the game itself, and most players rather play with good than bad players. There'll be new players.
You put it as 'Weak and incapable' not I. By your logic the hisec ratter can be seen as a winner as they are making a good living by understanding the mechanics they are operating in. This doesn't make them a bad player, maybe bad at PvP and that's why they avoid it but not a bad player overall.
You seem to only be thinking from a losec/null perspective in that a player who does not engage in PvP combat is a bad player (please correct me if I'm wrong that's just the impression). How then would that cover a manufacturing player, someone who builds tech II stuff for instance. I can make a good living from a complex area of the game without ever engaging in combat with another player. Does that make me a good or bad player? Given that I supply a good number of hulls and modules into the game I'm enabling other players to enjoy their area of the game. In doing so I regularly run through losec gathering up my PI ( along with hitting combat sites) so know both of those areas of space at least. This change would not affect me, if anything it would provide more losec space to explore but I'm not selfish enough to ask for boosts to myself at the expens of others.
I honestly cannot see how this would benefit the game. Those who mission would still do so without going to losec (they would adapt to avoid it in different ways). Those who trade would most likely suffer. Those who manufacture would suffer or simply work around the new areas without ever interacting with them in any meaningful way. It would be wasted effort to introduce this to the game. |
Shai'd Hulud
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
11
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Posted - 2015.01.31 15:19:16 -
[1763] - Quote
No thank's -1 Reason : You will isolate a lot of player. |
Commander Ted
Sudden Buggery Prolapse.
1225
|
Posted - 2015.01.31 18:21:38 -
[1764] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:What if CONCORD just didn't respond as fast to capital ship ganks? Now there's more reason to go through lowsec. Leave highsec chokepoints, but make a whole bunch of alternate paths through lowsec all with similar numbers of jumps. Lowsec might end up being the safer option.
Hi-sec would be completely unsurvivable.
You wouldn't even make it to low sec.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
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Zlake
Haul Miners Union
16
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Posted - 2015.01.31 19:03:46 -
[1765] - Quote
When are they going to implement this? It makes so much sense with cannon too. Pirate factions hate the empire factions. Can easily be pushed forward with the pirate factions trying to destabilize the empires. We all ready have Sansha nation in a all out war in side of empire. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2705
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Posted - 2015.01.31 19:34:36 -
[1766] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: They do not want to fight and therefore wouldn't.
And they should not have to should they not want to.
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:They would stay where they are Which is their choice
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: or simply learn to bypass losec with WH's or BR's. Which is great should they do this!
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: This proposal would not lead to more losec living without nerfing hisec income possibilities into the ground which would then destroy a large chunk of manufacturing at least. Thaat's why I can't support the proposal Many areas of high sec have plenty of low end minerals and high end minerals will still come from the same places they currently come from, so very little industry would actually be affected. |
Frankinator
Haul Miners Union
1
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Posted - 2015.01.31 21:14:12 -
[1767] - Quote
+1 |
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