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Corey Fumimasa
The Advent of Faith
43
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Posted - 2013.01.21 15:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
I just need something to stand still for a bit.
here is a thought I had about force multipliers and campaign longevity. I hope it can stay here.
Longevity of Eve:
Part of me wonders if it can even be salvaged at this point. I remember seeing EQ for the first time in a GÇ£cyber-caf+¬GÇ¥ or whatever they were called then. It looked really cool, but as soon as the guy opened his inventory and showed me the items warning bells started to go off. I had seen the corrosive effects of force multiplying skills*items*levels in ttRPGGÇÖs. They inevitably lead to a Monty Hall style game experience.
EveGÇÖs Item*implant*skill multiplier curve may be even steeper at this point than comparably aged MMOGÇÖs. When I think the only way to maintain long term stability in a system is with a decelerating power curve.
We will see.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Myrissa Kistel
Planetary Logistics
14
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 15:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:I just need something to stand still for a bit.
here is a thought I had about force multipliers and campaign longevity. I hope it can stay here.
Longevity of Eve:
Part of me wonders if it can even be salvaged at this point. I remember seeing EQ for the first time in a GÇ£cyber-caf+¬GÇ¥ or whatever they were called then. It looked really cool, but as soon as the guy opened his inventory and showed me the items warning bells started to go off. I had seen the corrosive effects of force multiplying skills*items*levels in ttRPGGÇÖs. They inevitably lead to a Monty Hall style game experience.
EveGÇÖs Item*implant*skill multiplier curve may be even steeper at this point than comparably aged MMOGÇÖs. When I think the only way to maintain long term stability in a system is with a decelerating power curve.
We will see.
Eve is hitting the 10 year mark. I would say that is longevity.
Other than that, I have no idea what you are talking about. |
Corey Fumimasa
The Advent of Faith
43
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 15:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Myrissa Kistel wrote: Eve is hitting the 10 year mark. I would say that is longevity.
Other than that, I have no idea what you are talking about.
That's entirely the point, it wasn't designed to last for 10 years. It may not be possible to make it last another 10 just because of the underlying acceleration inherent in the model.
nice shirt
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Whitehound
410
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 16:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:Myrissa Kistel wrote: Eve is hitting the 10 year mark. I would say that is longevity.
Other than that, I have no idea what you are talking about.
That's entirely the point, it wasn't designed to last for 10 years. It may not be possible to make it last another 10 just because of the underlying acceleration inherent in the model. nice shirt How would you know what EVE was designed for?!?
You are being outright arrogant with such ridiculous statements.
Stop posting your rant over and over again, please. If you have an idea then take it into Features and Ideas forum.
PS: And a "Thank You!" to the ISDs who keep doing their job and lock or move your threads. |
Corey Fumimasa
The Advent of Faith
43
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 16:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:How would you know what EVE was designed for?!? You are being outright arrogant with such ridiculous statements. Stop posting your rant over and over again, please. If you have an idea then take it into Features and Ideas forum. PS: And a "Thank You!" to the ISDs who keep doing their job and lock or move your threads.
Eve has so many rules and caveats, one of the things I love about it. I read as much as I can but the game really doesn't start to make sense until you just sit down and start playing a bit.
These forums are the same way Whitehound. I will post and read and adjust to the stimuli here. And eventually I will find a way to interact. I will lose a few ships along the way, but that's OK. It is part of what makes this fun.
I'm sorry that you do not like me or my writing. I very much enjoy being here and discussing the game world.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Enaya Wendos
Perkone Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Eve has so many rules and caveats, one of the things I love about it. I read as much as I can but the game really doesn't start to make sense until you just sit down and start playing a bit.
These forums are the same way Whitehound. I will post and read and adjust to the stimuli here. And eventually I will find a way to interact. I will lose a few ships along the way, but that's OK. It is part of what makes this fun.
I'm sorry that you do not like me or my writing. I very much enjoy being here and discussing the game world.
I don't understand why you would want to read about the game in the first place, the way to experience and understand something is to get involved and start playing.
For the last 10 years CCP have pretty much given the player base free reign to do what they want within Eve. That freedom and the community itself are what keeps the game fresh for me, even if most of the players have the IQ of a pencil.
Eve isn't like other MMO's where the storyline is handed to you, you have the power to change it in this game. Not to mention CCP take elected players as representatives and regularly act on their feedback.
I don't understand (nor care to) the models or designs CCP have in place, but if they keep doing what they are doing i'll keep playing it until the servers turn to dust (no pun intended).
Basic jist is - who cares, play the game and have fun. Let CCP worry about designs, models and longtivety etc. |
Corey Fumimasa
The Advent of Faith
44
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
Enaya Wendos wrote:
I don't understand why you would want to read about the game in the first place, the way to experience and understand something is to get involved and start playing.
For the last 10 years CCP have pretty much given the player base free reign to do what they want within Eve. That freedom and the community itself are what keeps the game fresh for me, even if most of the players have the IQ of a pencil.
Eve isn't like other MMO's where the storyline is handed to you, you have the power to change it in this game. Not to mention CCP take elected players as representatives and regularly act on their feedback.
I don't understand (nor care to) the models or designs CCP have in place, but if they keep doing what they are doing i'll keep playing it until the servers turn to dust (no pun intended).
Basic jist is - who cares, play the game and have fun. Let CCP worry about designs, models and longtivety etc.
Thank you, that is a good reminder. I was just reading about the whole CFC HBC drama. I started wondering last summer after Delve how long that romance would last. I wish the CCD didn't lock that post. I don't want to go over to the Goon/Test thread and discuss it.
Perhaps I will set up a cov-ops and JC near tribute.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Enaya Wendos
Perkone Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
Or better yet hatch a scheme to create your own drama, the comedy value of this game alone are worth the subs |
WarlockX
Free Trade Corp
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
what force multiplier items are you referring to? And what power curve?
Has there even been new implants as of late? I can't remember any in the past few years... |
Corey Fumimasa
The Advent of Faith
44
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:54:00 -
[10] - Quote
WarlockX wrote:what force multiplier items are you referring to? And what power curve?
Has there even been new implants as of late? I can't remember any in the past few years... Any time you have linear growth along several vectors they will compound into a very steep curve when multiplied. A 20million SP char with t2 fittings, combat implants, and combat experience will kill a 1 million SP char with t1 fittings and no implants in one or 2 volleys.
Remove the combat implants, shrink the gear disparity to a few one hundredths of a %, same with the effect of skills on the hardware and the vet pilot will still win 90% of the time. But the fight will last longer.
I'm not saying that older, wealthier more prepared pilots shouldnt have a mechanical advantage, but there is no reason for that advantage to be so great.
With this disproportionate play field the content created by younger players has little impact on older players. If the playing field was more level then there would be more exciting and real content for everyone.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1526
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 19:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
At the last fanfest the Devs said they are well aware of the three "creeps" that tend to plague online games, and that can kill them.
The power creep: New items released make old items that did basically the same task redundant. The cost creep: Otherwise known as inflation. The complexity creep: New stuff added making the game ever more complex and impenetrable to a new player.
Current containment methods:
Power creep: do a balanced set of nerfs and buffs, so the overall power of items stays about constant.
Cost creep: Do not in any way index NPC bounties or mission payouts to a cost index. Try and keep the economy moving via building and destruction of items.
Complexity creep: Add features that make it easier to figure out how to do something, while leaving it to the player to decide what to do. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation The Irukandji
1206
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 19:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
The real power in EVE is not your implants or your skills, but rather your friends. Force-multiply THAT. Also, EVE is dying! |
Corey Fumimasa
The Advent of Faith
44
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 19:11:00 -
[13] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:At the last fanfest the Devs said they are well aware of the three "creeps" that tend to plague online games, and that can kill them.
The power creep: New items released make old items that did basically the same task redundant. The cost creep: Otherwise known as inflation. The complexity creep: New stuff added making the game ever more complex and impenetrable to a new player.
Current containment methods:
Power creep: do a balanced set of nerfs and buffs, so the overall power of items stays about constant.
Cost creep: Do not in any way index NPC bounties or mission payouts to a cost index. Try and keep the economy moving via building and destruction of items.
Complexity creep: Add features that make it easier to figure out how to do something, while leaving it to the player to decide what to do. You may have saved from the road to CCP bitterness and dev blasting! phew, that was close. TY
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Corey Fumimasa
The Advent of Faith
44
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 19:20:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ptraci wrote:The real power in EVE is not your implants or your skills, but rather your friends. Force-multiply THAT. Also, EVE is dying!
IDK, CFC and HBC are probably going to come to blows here soon. That could blow up the big blue doughnut. And CCP knows that more shiny toys are not the answer. They apologized for the WiS thing and seem to be getting back to creating ways for us to scam and assault...I mean interact with one another.
I have had to deal with the carepony generation on some other issues. They are not impossible to reason with, but it has been my experience that they hate the old guard in any form. That's OK hate spins the wheels of content just fine.
We will see.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Whitehound
412
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 19:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:I'm not saying that older, wealthier more prepared pilots shouldnt have a mechanical advantage, but there is no reason for that advantage to be so great. Why so jealous?
Sure there is. Those implants are rare and expensive, but once the pilot sits in a pod are they gone in one shot. What do then your assumptions look like when you compare the number of old players to new players? I bet you did not think of the old players but of yourself and how this puts you at a disadvantage, right? Maybe there are far fewer old pilots than new pilots? Let's use the search function to find out...
Oh, there is something: http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=310
What do you say, do we leave them their toys? |
Corey Fumimasa
The Advent of Faith
44
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 19:27:00 -
[16] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:I'm not saying that older, wealthier more prepared pilots shouldnt have a mechanical advantage, but there is no reason for that advantage to be so great. Why so jealous? Sure there is. Those implants are rare and expensive, but once the pilot sits in a pod are they gone in one shot. What do then your assumptions look like when you compare the number of old players to new players? I bet you did not think of the old players but of yourself and how this puts you at a disadvantage, right? Maybe there are far fewer old pilots than new pilots? Let's use the search function to find out... Oh, there is something: http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=310What do you say, do we leave them their toys? No I'm afraid that implants need a substantial nerf in order to even the playing field. With so many new players coming in we can't have this kind of lopsided arrangement. Fortunately it is a situation in which compliance does not require you to do anything. Just wait a while.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Whitehound
412
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 19:29:00 -
[17] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:No I'm afraid that implants need a substantial nerf in order to even the playing field. Why? You don't have any.
What's your problem? |
Corey Fumimasa
The Advent of Faith
44
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 19:34:00 -
[18] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:No I'm afraid that implants need a substantial nerf in order to even the playing field. Why? You don't have any. What's your problem?
I don't have a problem. I'm just betting on new blood to be more inclined to stay in Eve if the playing field is level.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
12768
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 19:35:00 -
[19] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:No I'm afraid that implants need a substantial nerf in order to even the playing field. With so many new players coming in we can't have this kind of lopsided arrangement. Sure we can, since the advantage isn't so big that it can't be compensated for with ease through other means.
The only game I've come across where there's such a good parity between old and new characters is Planetside, largely because it followed the same design of shallow/wide ability trees (albeit on a much on a much smaller scale).
Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Dalmont Delantee
Dropbears with Kebabs SpaceMonkey's Alliance
104
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 19:35:00 -
[20] - Quote
God why are people so hung up on skill points, focus on one skill set and you'll be top of your game in a couple of months, just like other mmos. If you diversify then you are looking at months and months. Want a titan? WTF would you want one of them, you just sit in it and crap yourself when you accidentally warp it ! :P |
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War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1654
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 19:36:00 -
[21] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:WarlockX wrote:what force multiplier items are you referring to? And what power curve?
Has there even been new implants as of late? I can't remember any in the past few years... Any time you have linear growth along several vectors they will compound into a very steep curve when multiplied. A 20million SP char with t2 fittings, combat implants, and combat experience will kill a 1 million SP char with t1 fittings and no implants in one or 2 volleys. Remove the combat implants, shrink the gear disparity to a few one hundredths of a %, same with the effect of skills on the hardware and the vet pilot will still win 90% of the time. But the fight will last longer. I'm not saying that older, wealthier more prepared pilots shouldnt have a mechanical advantage, but there is no reason for that advantage to be so great. With this disproportionate play field the content created by younger players has little impact on older players. If the playing field was more level then there would be more exciting and real content for everyone.
If you're finding the gap between experienced, prepared and knowledgeable pilots versus young, naive and ignorant ones, perhaps you should strive to fill that gap rather than bemoaning the reality of it.
In Eve, your own knowledge of the game's mechanics, your skill at applying that knowledge to the situation, and the decisions you make are far more important than the end result of some random number generators calculating damage based on various statistics.
In the situation you're describing, assuming identical ships with best-available equipment on them, there is one situation where the younger player will win: The one where he makes the better decisions.
Depending on the types of ships, that decision is often "Don't engage", but there are often times when better ammo selection and range dictation would serve to let the younger player win the fight too. More commonly though, the situation is not identical ships, but two very different ships with different roles. Learn those interactions and even the lowliest frigate or cruiser pilot will be killing pimped battleships.
tl;dr: If you think the game is too out of balance, or that superior character skills and ship equipment wins every time, you've got a lot more to learn.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Whitehound
412
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 19:40:00 -
[22] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:I don't have a problem. I'm just betting on new blood to be more inclined to stay in Eve if the playing field is level. The old players are few and their influence comes not so much from their toys but from their experience. If you lose the old players then who is left but only the new players? And what is there to make new players stay when there is little to gain and when all the old players leave? |
Corey Fumimasa
The Advent of Faith
45
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 19:46:00 -
[23] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:
If you're finding the gap between experienced, prepared and knowledgeable pilots versus young, naive and ignorant ones, perhaps you should strive to fill that gap rather than bemoaning the reality of it.
In Eve, your own knowledge of the game's mechanics, your skill at applying that knowledge to the situation, and the decisions you make are far more important than the end result of some random number generators calculating damage based on various statistics.
That being the case then the mechanical advantage provided by skills, implants, and equipment is irrelevant. It should be done away with entirely.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Corey Fumimasa
The Advent of Faith
45
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 19:51:00 -
[24] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:I don't have a problem. I'm just betting on new blood to be more inclined to stay in Eve if the playing field is level. The old players are few and their influence comes not so much from their toys but from their experience. If you lose the old players then who is left but only the new players? And what is there to make new players stay when there is little to gain and when all the old players leave?
You are going to leave because your shiny pixel toys are no longer relevant? What about all this real skill and knowledge advantage, understanding of core concepts leading to victory!
The results of grinding gear in Eve is no different than grinding levels in WoW. If Eve players want to be different from WoW players then the gear grind needs to go.
Do you know Zeus Sparta WH? He is another crazy old guy I've met in Eve. He used to live near the Eve Gate down in Genisis.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1655
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 19:53:00 -
[25] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:War Kitten wrote:
If you're finding the gap between experienced, prepared and knowledgeable pilots versus young, naive and ignorant ones, perhaps you should strive to fill that gap rather than bemoaning the reality of it.
In Eve, your own knowledge of the game's mechanics, your skill at applying that knowledge to the situation, and the decisions you make are far more important than the end result of some random number generators calculating damage based on various statistics.
That being the case then the mechanical advantage provided by skills, implants, and equipment is irrelevant. It should be done away with entirely.
Negative.
When two experienced pilots come together and make all the right decisions, the one with better skills, and better gear should have an edge.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
12768
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 19:54:00 -
[26] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:That being the case then the mechanical advantage provided by skills, implants, and equipment is irrelevant. It should be done away with entirely. Why?
Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Whitehound
413
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 19:57:00 -
[27] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:That being the case then the mechanical advantage provided by skills, implants, and equipment is irrelevant. It should be done away with entirely. It isn't. It is only irrelevant to you, because you find it hard to gain these advantages.
Some players are good at technical things, know how to create a good fitting and while others don't. It does not make fittings irrelevant.
Some players are good at leading and know how to create alliances while others only play solo. It does not make alliances irrelevant.
Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. Maybe you have no strengths at all. It is however not the game's fault. One can learn the virtues needed that are required to play EVE. It is why we play it! |
Corey Fumimasa
The Advent of Faith
45
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 20:01:00 -
[28] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:
Negative.
When two experienced pilots come together and make all the right decisions, the one with better skills, and better gear should have an edge.
OK, lets just get rid of, implants, and skills that affect hard numbers for gear. The gear difference by itself isn't too bad. Its only when it gets multiplied by implants and then that number gets multiplied again by skills.
And warfare links will show up on KM's and WL effects will be perfectly clear to everyone involved.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Corey Fumimasa
The Advent of Faith
45
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 20:10:00 -
[29] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:That being the case then the mechanical advantage provided by skills, implants, and equipment is irrelevant. It should be done away with entirely. It isn't. It is only irrelevant to you, because you find it hard to gain these advantages. Some players are good at technical things, know how to create a good fitting and while others don't. It does not make fittings irrelevant. Some players are good at leading and know how to create alliances while others only play solo. It does not make alliances irrelevant. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. Maybe you have no strengths at all. It is however not the game's fault. One can learn the virtues needed that are required to play EVE. It is why we play it!
Warkitten said its irrelevant because real skills trump mechanical advantage. I agree with her. And with you that fitting is an art and one that takes time to learn, and that managing a fleet is a real skill that takes time to learn. These skill give older players more than enough advantage, you don't need to have a ship thats 4 or 5 or 6 times as good as a new pilot to beat them.
I don't wear implants because I like the handicap and I like the freedom it gives me to explore dangerous territory. If you didn't have all that expensive gear to worry about you might enjoy the game a little more. Yet another reason to do away with them. It might get the conflictophobes to loosen up and interact with the game world a little bit.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
12769
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 20:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:OK, lets just get rid of, implants, and skills that affect hard numbers for gear. Why? Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
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Whitehound
413
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 20:23:00 -
[31] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:The gear difference by itself isn't too bad. Its only when it gets multiplied by implants and then that number gets multiplied again by skills. You don't have a good understanding of mathematics, which is why you keep drawing a bad picture of multiplications.
One uses multiplications when two variables are independent from each other (like the sides of a rectangle), and only when they are not independent does one add them. This has nothing to do with the game. It is a very old mathematical principle.
This principle is being used throughout the game to create diversity by keeping skills independent from one another.
The human mind is not very good when it comes to recognizing differences. Many of us are unable to tell the difference between a car travelling at 50mph and 57mph without looking at the speedometer. It is however a difference of +14%. In order for a game to be fun and to stay fun does it require for players to make regular gains at such values, at least 10%-15%, and more.
Because of the need for independence between skills and gear are multiplications better than additions. It also explains why the gains by many skills are rather small with 2%, 3% and 5%.
It is a well thought of design, which you haven't yet understood. Once you do will you see the beauty of it and how it makes a better game. |
Whitehound
413
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 20:25:00 -
[32] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:Warkitten said its irrelevant because real skills trump mechanical advantage. No, she didn't. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
12770
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 20:40:00 -
[33] - Quote
GǪoh, and pop quiz: Guy A has 10M SP and has trained all his skills to V. Guy B has 5M SP and has trained all his skills to IV.
Who has the better bonuses and stats? Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Corey Fumimasa
The Advent of Faith
45
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 20:44:00 -
[34] - Quote
Whitehound wrote: Because of the need for independence between skills and gear are multiplications better than additions. It also explains why the gains by many skills are rather small with 2%, 3% and 5%, because these are being used in multiplications.
.
So rather than trust my math or yours I just fired up EFT. There was a vexor fit with a couple of medium neuts and small guns. All t2 fittings, I set the skills to all V and stuck in implants that looked like armor boosters. EHP was 23142 dps was 171.
Then I set skills to none or whatever and removed the implants. Swapped all the gear out with t1. EHP was 9000 dps was 48, and the powergrid was 131 over.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Corey Fumimasa
The Advent of Faith
45
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 20:49:00 -
[35] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:Warkitten said its irrelevant because real skills trump mechanical advantage. No, she didn't. "In Eve, your own knowledge of the game's mechanics, your skill at applying that knowledge to the situation, and the decisions you make are far more important than the end result of some random number generators calculating damage based on various statistics.
-----War kitten"
Take it however you want to.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Whitehound
413
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 20:53:00 -
[36] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:So rather than trust my math or yours I just fired up EFT. There was a vexor fit with a couple of medium neuts and small guns. All t2 fittings, I set the skills to all V and stuck in implants that looked like armor boosters. EHP was 23142 dps was 171.
Then I set skills to none or whatever and removed the implants. Swapped all the gear out with t1. EHP was 9000 dps was 48, and the powergrid was 131 over. So that is 2.57x more eHP and 3.56x more DPS for the guy who stayed with EVE for many years and with only a few of his best friends left, while he gets attacked by countless noobs, year after year, who not only come with their spaceships but also want to see his bonuses removed. |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
1646
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 20:53:00 -
[37] - Quote
We could always get rid of all the ships except noobships, and all the weapons except civilian weapons, and have ourselves a game that is based on actual player skill and not on skillpoints of learned skills or isk spent on ships. Nope, would still cause too much butthurt. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
WarProfit
Viziam Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 20:56:00 -
[38] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:We could always get rid of all the ships except noobships, and all the weapons except civilian weapons, and have ourselves a game that is based on actual player skill and not on skillpoints of learned skills or isk spent on ships. Nope, would still cause too much butthurt.
Yeah then all of those CCP pets (AKA goons and test) Will leave. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
12772
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 20:58:00 -
[39] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:So that is 2.57x more eHP and 3.56x more DPS for the guy who stayed with EVE for many years and with only a few of his best friends left, while he gets attacked by countless noobs, year after year, who not only come with their spaceships but also want to see his bonuses removed. GǪput another way: the best you can ever be with the fit in question GÇö something that takes significant time to accumulate GÇö gets killed by three players who have been in the game for zero seconds and who had to use devh4x to get into the ships to begin with. Yeah, that's a massive, insurmountable, and deeply unfair advantage from all those skills alrightGǪ Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
973
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 20:59:00 -
[40] - Quote
Myrissa Kistel wrote:Eve is hitting the 10 year mark. I would say that is longevity.
Other than that, I have no idea what you are talking about.
True. It is also doing it without hitting the 500k subscription mark, and many, if not most, of the existing subscriptions are alt accounts.
That is nothing to brag about to hoist up on a flag. Consider other MMOs - WoW with its current 10 mil subs (most of which are NOT alt accounts), with a high of 13 million, after 8+ years? Now that's something. Or Aion, when it was paid, reaching roughly 4 mil? Or GW2 in its early access weekend (pre-orders only) reaching 400k concurrent users. Compare that to EVE's peak of 68k? Yeah...
Look, nobody's claiming EVE is dying. But you'd be silly to say EVE is doing fine. It's stagnating, and has been for years. And arguably the only reason it even lasted so long is because it had virtually zero competition in the sci-fi spaceship area. There really haven't been (m)any games of this type. With strong competition the likes of which fantasy genre MMOs experience, the game could have been dead five times over.
Are subscriptions growing? Yeah, probably, albeit very slowly. Are they growing due to new people, or just more alt accounts? CCP knows, but they won't tell you. And let's face it, not even 500k after 10 years? When other MMOs have 4-22x more? Nothing to shout from the rooftops about. |
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Corey Fumimasa
The Advent of Faith
45
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 21:02:00 -
[41] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:So rather than trust my math or yours I just fired up EFT. There was a vexor fit with a couple of medium neuts and small guns. All t2 fittings, I set the skills to all V and stuck in implants that looked like armor boosters. EHP was 23142 dps was 171.
Then I set skills to none or whatever and removed the implants. Swapped all the gear out with t1. EHP was 9000 dps was 48, and the powergrid was 131 over. So that is 2.57x more eHP and 3.56x more DPS for the guy who stayed with EVE for many years and with only a few of his best friends left, while he gets attacked by countless noobs, year after year, who not only come with their spaceships but also want to see his bonuses removed.
So when facts and even math fail you pull the "oh save me from the wild hoards of screaming children" card! You make my my frikken day Wh.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
2966
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 21:02:00 -
[42] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:There was a vexor fit with a couple of medium neuts and small guns. All t2 fittings, I set the skills to all V and stuck in implants that looked like armor boosters. EHP was 23142 dps was 171.
Then I set skills to none or whatever and removed the implants. Swapped all the gear out with t1. EHP was 9000 dps was 48, and the powergrid was 131 over.
Now give the all-5s guy blasters, give the no-skills guy a caracal with heavy missile launchers, and see who wins when they fight at the caracal's optimal range.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Whitehound
413
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 21:06:00 -
[43] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:And let's face it, not even 500k after 10 years? When other MMOs have 4-22x more? Nothing to shout from the rooftops about. 10 years are 10 years, no matter how you twist it.
It is 10 years of bills getting paid and food being put on the table by CCP and their families. For some is this success, others dream of riches while their mothers are still doing the washing. |
Corey Fumimasa
The Advent of Faith
45
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 21:08:00 -
[44] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:There was a vexor fit with a couple of medium neuts and small guns. All t2 fittings, I set the skills to all V and stuck in implants that looked like armor boosters. EHP was 23142 dps was 171.
Then I set skills to none or whatever and removed the implants. Swapped all the gear out with t1. EHP was 9000 dps was 48, and the powergrid was 131 over. Now give the all-5s guy blasters, give the no-skills guy a caracal with heavy missile launchers, and see who wins when they fight at the caracal's optimal range.
That is exactly the point, there's no need for such mechanical advantage, vet pilots will win the fight because they know how to fight. Do away with the gear disparity and make the game one of real skill and knowledge. Not this fantasy tough guy fight club where the other guy is crippled and doesn't even know it.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
974
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 21:13:00 -
[45] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Whitehound wrote:So that is 2.57x more eHP and 3.56x more DPS for the guy who stayed with EVE for many years and with only a few of his best friends left, while he gets attacked by countless noobs, year after year, who not only come with their spaceships but also want to see his bonuses removed. GǪput another way: the best you can ever be with the fit in question GÇö something that takes significant time to accumulate GÇö gets killed by three players who have been in the game for zero seconds and who had to use devh4x to get into the ships to begin with. Yeah, that's a massive, insurmountable, and deeply unfair advantage from all those skills alrightGǪ
Allow me to play the Devil's Advocate for a minute. Oh wait, I do that anyway...
Anywho, let me flip the question: if the "massive, insurmountable, and deeply unfair advantage" you speak of is so negligible in reality, why are "old hands" with said SP advantage soooooooo reluctant to give it up?
If it is as you say, wouldn't it be much better to give up this tiny, negligible and totally meaningless advantage? The immediate benefit would be the new players would not longer have this to complain about. Why not do it, if it's such a small thing?
Having said that, you yourself admit it's an advantage. As soon as you do that, it becomes a question of degrees, and highly subjective. That might be OK for you (3 newbies killing 1 veteran) might be utterly unacceptable for someone else. For example, consider other gaming genres, such as FPS games, where a bullet to the head is a bullet to the head, and where 1v1 a noob with good aim can easily and reliably take down a vet with a character several years old and all the best weapon unlocks. And the complete other end of the spectrum is WoW, where even a trillion level 1 characters will never ever take down a single level 85 character, it's just not possible, but it works in that game because players get segregated by level when it comes to meaningful activities.
So, rather than get into "what's enough and what's too much", which is subjective, why not get rid of the character skills, and make the game about player skill exclusively? If the advantage is so miniscule anyway, why do you object to it? |
Whitehound
413
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 21:20:00 -
[46] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Anywho, let me flip the question: if the "massive, insurmountable, and deeply unfair advantage" you speak of is so negligible in reality, why are "old hands" with said SP advantage soooooooo reluctant to give it up? What's so difficult to understand? Because we like to win over noobs and we enjoy it when we can do it with ease. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
12773
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 21:28:00 -
[47] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Anywho, let me flip the question: if the "massive, insurmountable, and deeply unfair advantage" you speak of is so negligible in reality, why are "old hands" with said SP advantage soooooooo reluctant to give it up? Because SP creates choices and planning and distinguishes one character from another. It's what forces characters to complement each other rather than do everything. It is GÇö counter-intuitively enough GÇö what lets new players beat old ones. Removing this by removing the skill advantages breaks some fundamental design elements of the game and makes it much poorer for it.
Also, you're somewhat misrepresenting the point. No-one is denying that skill levels don't create advantages GÇö that's their entire purpose, after all. However, note the wording. I didn't say GÇ£SPGÇ¥ because SP offers no advantages; it only offers the disadvantage of more expensive clones. The reason older players don't want to give up their skill advantage is because they've spent a lot of time and planning to get that versatility. Anyone can quickly and easily match or surpass them in power, because of the double-whammy of diminishing returns, so what they have to play with is a larger set of tools and to be honest, they've earned it. It's an advantage that is trivial to overcome with a bit of clevernessGǪ so that's one more thing the existence of skills promote, rather than vapid and bland cookie-cutter and FOTM builds and strategies.
Quote:The immediate benefit would be the new players would not longer have this to complain about. Why not do it, if it's such a small thing? GǪbecause it removes such a crucial set of elements of the game: decisions, planning, sacrifices, prioritisation, combination, characterisation, and customisation. It makes the game much much worse for no good reason (and no, complaining n00bs is not a reason GÇö the solution to that problem is education, not ruining the game). Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Glathull
Suicidal Panda Tears of Love and Death
80
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 21:32:00 -
[48] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:[quote=War Kitten]
The gear difference by itself isn't too bad. Its only when it gets multiplied by implants and then that number gets multiplied again by skills.
You do realize that skill growth over time isn't linear, don't you? The improvements you get diminish over time. Sort of. The time to get from lvl 1 to lvl 4 is relatively small compared to the time it takes to get to 5. The curve goes up again when you get to the new skills that are typically opened up by getting a lvl 5 skill. But the returns there are also diminished. The actual growth is more like a cubic function with it's center shifted up and to the right of 0.
Learning Implants compress the function. But you can't really call them multipliers in the sense you're talking about. They don't fundamentally alter the patter over time. They just shrink the time scale to some extent.
Except for gear (read: ships) that adds a per lvl bonus, there's no linear relationship between gear and skill level. You can use better gear when you get a skill to a certain point.
So try this out. Run a multiple regression on total bonus applied, skill level, and time spent training. You'll find that they are highly covariant, meaning that they aren't really 3 different factors explaining actual applied (whatever variable here: DPS, EHP). They are 3 different ways of looking at the same number.
They are clearly not multiplicative. Run the same regression and include time. You'll see that time accounts for almost all the variation of whatever variable you want to look at. The other three are proxies for time.
Implants compress time. That's it. But implants are only very slightly time dependent. It takes almost no time to get Cybernetics to 4 and get relatively affordable implants that can put you on par with the vast majority of older players.
Most gear outside of implants or ships is a one-time bump in the curve. You get your skill high enough to use tech 2 gear, and when you get that gear it's a one-off improvement.
The last thing you seem to misunderstand is that the curve isn't never-ending. If you start skill x and get it to 5 two years before I do, you don't continuously get a 2-year advantage over me that I can never catch up to. I can get that skill to 5 as well, and then we're even. Because skills don't just continuously increase. They stop at 5.
If they didn't, I'd say you could have a point. But they do.
So all of your fancy math words aside, the only real point you could possibly be making is that some people have expensive stuff that gives them an advantage. Well, okay. It's true. But I don't think it's a fundamentally game-breaking problem. In fact, if there were no advantage at all to sticking with a game for a long time and building up the money to buy expensive stuff that gave you an advantage--I'm pretty sure that would be a problem.
To repeat, the skill split is scheduled for the big Summer 2013 expansion. ~CCP Fozzie |
Corey Fumimasa
The Advent of Faith
45
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 21:45:00 -
[49] - Quote
Glathull wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:[quote=War Kitten]
The gear difference by itself isn't too bad. Its only when it gets multiplied by implants and then that number gets multiplied again by skills.
So all of your fancy math words aside, the only real point you could possibly be making is that some people have expensive stuff that gives them an advantage. Well, okay. It's true. But I don't think it's a fundamentally game-breaking problem. In fact, if there were no advantage at all to sticking with a game for a long time and building up the money to buy expensive stuff that gave you an advantage--I'm pretty sure that would be a problem.
There's not a lot of fancy math words in my EFT comparison. Skills and gear make the vet ship considerably more than 2.5x better than the noob ship. And I don't care to really max out those numbers with faction gear and specific implants. You wont read about the stacking advantages of named gear, skills, and implants because the people that understand those relationships tend to keep their mouths shut.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Whitehound
413
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 21:52:00 -
[50] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:There's not a lot of fancy math words in my EFT comparison. Skills and gear make the vet ship considerably more than 2.5x better than the noob ship. And I don't care to really max out those numbers with faction gear and specific implants. You wont read about the stacking advantages of named gear, skills, and implants because the people that understand those relationships tend to keep their mouths shut. You are just being jealous.
Players who are found with officer gear fitted on their ships become very quickly targets of ganks and hotdrops.
Your comprehension of the game, from the mechanics to the social behaviours, is very weak. Don't try to fight it, don't ask to get help at each step, but play the game. If you cannot do this then find some other game, because you are definitely not enjoying it. |
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Whitehound
413
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 21:54:00 -
[51] - Quote
(double post) |
Glathull
Suicidal Panda Tears of Love and Death
80
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 21:59:00 -
[52] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
There's not a lot of fancy math words in my EFT comparison. Skills and gear make the vet ship considerably more than 2.5x better than the noob ship. And I don't care to really max out those numbers with faction gear and specific implants. You wont read about the stacking advantages of named gear, skills, and implants because the people that understand those relationships tend to keep their mouths shut.
I was referencing one of your earlier posts about multiplying vectors, in case that wasn't clear in the rest of my post that you didn't seem to read. But maybe I was thinking of someone else. To repeat, the skill split is scheduled for the big Summer 2013 expansion. ~CCP Fozzie |
Corey Fumimasa
The Advent of Faith
45
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 22:00:00 -
[53] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:There's not a lot of fancy math words in my EFT comparison. Skills and gear make the vet ship considerably more than 2.5x better than the noob ship. And I don't care to really max out those numbers with faction gear and specific implants. You wont read about the stacking advantages of named gear, skills, and implants because the people that understand those relationships tend to keep their mouths shut. You are just being jealous. Players who are found with officer gear fitted on their ships become very quickly targets of ganks and hotdrops. Your comprehension of the game, from the mechanics to the social behaviours, is very weak. Don't try to fight it, don't ask to get help at each step, but play the game. If you cannot do this then find some other game, because you are definitely not enjoying it. Your trying to hypnotize me! Thats what the double post post thing is. It wont work I tell you...I am enjoying....am I enjoying it......double post so sleepy...I am definaate...
What happened, where am I. Must protect care bears! Grr where's the Goons, I must pewpew Goons! GRRRR
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Corey Fumimasa
The Advent of Faith
45
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 22:05:00 -
[54] - Quote
Glathull wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:
There's not a lot of fancy math words in my EFT comparison. Skills and gear make the vet ship considerably more than 2.5x better than the noob ship. And I don't care to really max out those numbers with faction gear and specific implants. You wont read about the stacking advantages of named gear, skills, and implants because the people that understand those relationships tend to keep their mouths shut.
I was referencing one of your earlier posts about multiplying vectors, in case that wasn't clear in the rest of my post that you didn't seem to read. But maybe I was thinking of someone else.
Oh I got that, which is why I double checked my own incompetent math and misunderstanding with EFT. Go figure, it matched my screwy math results.
Check it yourself, don't argue with me. Fire up EFT and run a ship through.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Corey Fumimasa
The Advent of Faith
45
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 22:17:00 -
[55] - Quote
Glathull wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:
There's not a lot of fancy math words in my EFT comparison. Skills and gear make the vet ship considerably more than 2.5x better than the noob ship. And I don't care to really max out those numbers with faction gear and specific implants. You wont read about the stacking advantages of named gear, skills, and implants because the people that understand those relationships tend to keep their mouths shut.
I was referencing one of your earlier posts about multiplying vectors, in case that wasn't clear in the rest of my post that you didn't seem to read. But maybe I was thinking of someone else. I read your post and I appreciate the work that you put into it. TY for that. But towards the end you said something about "my misunderstanding". Which kind of ...WTF ed me for a few.
I'm not making **** up here. Maybe I'm not good at explaining math, but I don't have to be. As I said before sit down with EFT and run some numbers. And be aware that EFT completely ignores situational advantage which is also greatly modified by skill; things like better tracking and range on your guns, overheat, any speed tank effect, and the elephant in the cargo hold that is cap.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Corey Fumimasa
The Advent of Faith
45
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 22:22:00 -
[56] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Anywho, let me flip the question: if the "massive, insurmountable, and deeply unfair advantage" you speak of is so negligible in reality, why are "old hands" with said SP advantage soooooooo reluctant to give it up? What's so difficult to understand? Because we like to win over noobs and we enjoy it when we can do it with ease.
Oh I understand it just fine. I just want to make sure that the hoards of screaming children understand.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Dalmont Delantee
Dropbears with Kebabs SpaceMonkey's Alliance
107
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 00:03:00 -
[57] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Myrissa Kistel wrote:Eve is hitting the 10 year mark. I would say that is longevity.
Other than that, I have no idea what you are talking about. True. It is also doing it without hitting the 500k subscription mark, and many, if not most, of the existing subscriptions are alt accounts. That is nothing to brag about to hoist up on a flag. Consider other MMOs - WoW with its current 10 mil subs (most of which are NOT alt accounts), with a high of 13 million, after 8+ years? Now that's something. Or Aion, when it was paid, reaching roughly 4 mil? Or GW2 in its early access weekend (pre-orders only) reaching 400k concurrent users. Compare that to EVE's peak of 68k? Yeah... Look, nobody's claiming EVE is dying. But you'd be silly to say EVE is doing fine. It's stagnating, and has been for years. And arguably the only reason it even lasted so long is because it had virtually zero competition in the sci-fi spaceship area. There really haven't been (m)any games of this type. With strong competition the likes of which fantasy genre MMOs experience, the game could have been dead five times over. Are subscriptions growing? Yeah, probably, albeit very slowly. Are they growing due to new people, or just more alt accounts? CCP knows, but they won't tell you. And let's face it, not even 500k after 10 years? When other MMOs have 4-22x more? Nothing to shout from the rooftops about.
So lets see, most of the people I know stopped played Wow ages ago, new accounts are rare and their subscriber base is dropping. The game was successful in its niche.
Aion, I've known one person play aion, aren't all their players korean and love the grind?
GW2, buy to play, over hyped trash, numbers dropped right away.
EVE, growing, sustaining players for years and top of its niche. I think thats succesful myself.
Plus if you don't like it go away. If you want all the kids and emo's who play wow playing then please, send them all a buddy invite, should be plenty of plexes for you when they sub. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Operations
3335
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 00:22:00 -
[58] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
That's entirely the point, it wasn't designed to last for 10 years.
Tell us exactly how long it was designed to last.
Apparently you know. America is the only country to go from barbarism to decadence (and back to barbarism - KI) without civilization in between. - Oscar Wilde - 1870's |
Rellik B00n
Lethal Death Squad
218
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 01:22:00 -
[59] - Quote
as long as the character bazaar exists and humans remain human your argument is invalid.
in fact your whole premise is incredibly shaky:
I enjoy the luxury of my fairly high SP having earned it over many years.
So i fit my slave set and etc and get in my faction fit tech 3 cruiser, only to get ganked by a rifter, a blackbird and a thorax. I cry as I watch my 300k EHP ship die to these T1 ships because I failed to consider that players working together are (mostly) better off than players working alone.
ask the goons, this is exactly what they did and look at them now.
numbers wins, so your whilst your are correct in saying I have more SP to my ship is better than any given newb your argument fails because you are not considering the reality, just the part of it you wish to see.
its similar in many ways to the player that builds a great ship in EFT then cant understand why it melts in 10 seconds under real conditions. please look at my thread in F&I about stealth and camo in EvE |
AstraPardus
Lightspeed Enterprises Fidelas Constans
189
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 01:31:00 -
[60] - Quote
I refuse to believe a decelerating power curve until I see a graph.
Graph or get off your soapbox! Rabblerabblerabble!!! Every time I post is Pardy time! :3 |
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ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
29
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 02:15:00 -
[61] - Quote
Topic has become a trolling topic. Locked. ISD Tyrozan Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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