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Kodama Ikari
Concordiat
Spaceship Samurai
14
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Posted - 2013.03.01 03:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
When arranging extractor heads, you can see the projected output over the cycle as a series of bars. the Per Hour average is calculated for the entire program, as well as a total output.
See here: http://i49.tinypic.com/2epsmzs.jpg
But once you hit install program, you can click on the extractor again. You see something different
See here: http://i49.tinypic.com/i1jh3n.jpg
Once changes are submitted, the later program remains in place.
Please explain what is going on here. |
Lord Battlestar
CALIMA COLLABORATIVE
Atrox Urbanis Respublique Abundatia
27
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Posted - 2013.03.01 03:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
You'd have to ask CCP, I wouldn't be surprised if it were a bug.
I once podded myself by blowing a huge fart. |
Kodama Ikari
Concordiat
Spaceship Samurai
14
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 04:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
Lord Battlestar wrote:You'd have to ask CCP, I wouldn't be surprised if it were a bug.
I hadn't considered submitting a petition, but I think I will now. Also, I first noticed this behavior years ago. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
3572
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Posted - 2013.03.01 04:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
What you are seeing is the current amount of extraction which varies considerable over the allotted time selected.
That is why the graphic chart goes up and down. Check again in a few hours and you will see a different amount for that 'time slice'.
This is perfectly normal and it has been this way since day 1.
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.-á-á-á-á-á-á - Oscar Wilde - 1870's |
Styth spiting
Ion Corp.
NightSong Directorate
292
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Posted - 2013.03.01 06:38:00 -
[5] - Quote
The values you see when positioning your extractor heads are based on your planetlogy skills. Basically with lower planetlogy / adv planetlogy skills the data (colors) you see are not very accurate, and are in most cases off by sometimes even a few inches. So what you see (the colors) may actually be several inches away in a different direction. This means once you place and commit your extractor heads (save) and then view the extractor again your values can be off by quite a bit.
So train advanced planetlogy IV and the data displayed on the screen will be far more accurate. |
Thur Barbek
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
71
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Posted - 2013.03.01 08:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
Styth spiting wrote:
Train advanced planetlogy IV and the data displayed on the screen will be far more accurate.
not empty quoting
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Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
3574
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Posted - 2013.03.01 12:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
That's all fine and dandy training that up but that will do nothing but give you more efficient Extractor head placement.
OP is asking why the values on the Window are different once engaged.
That value after engagement is determined by the current particular time slice in the graph. Check once the cycle hits the tallest bar and you will see a huge value being extracted. Check during one of the shorter time slices towards the end of the cycle, and the extraction values will be very low.
That is not hard to understand I hope.
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.-á-á-á-á-á-á - Oscar Wilde - 1870's |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
499
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 15:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kodama Ikari wrote:When arranging extractor heads, you can see the projected output over the cycle as a series of bars. the Per Hour average is calculated for the entire program, as well as a total output. See here: http://i49.tinypic.com/2epsmzs.jpgBut once you hit install program, you can click on the extractor again. You see something different See here: http://i49.tinypic.com/i1jh3n.jpgOnce changes are submitted, the later program remains in place. Please explain what is going on here.
This is not a bug, it is 100% correct, and working as it is supposed to.
What you are seeing is the effect of planetology skills.
When setting up your extractors the values you see are not the real values, but based on a survey that has a margin of error based on your planetology skills. Without plantology skills trained you can see a 50% or more difference n these values. The difference is not consistent though as it is a margin of error, your "survey" can land values anywhere from the correct value to a value that is out by over 50%.
When you train the planetology skills this "Margin of Error" on your survey is reduced. By training Planetology to 4 and advanced planetology to 4 you can reduce this "Margin of Error" from about 50% to about 5% by training both to 5 the "margin of error" is reduced to basically nothing.
What this means is without Planetology skills trained the number you see in your "Survey" can possibly be out by 50% or more. But by training the Planetology skills you can reduce that error to nothing.generally taking the skills both to 4 is enough that the error is to same to worry about.
It does not end here though. There is another "margin of Error" based on your distance to the planet. If you are in orbit around the planet you are "surveying" this error is nothing, but each jump from the planet this error gets bigger. If you are remotely managing you planets from another region this error can potentially be huge. This margin of error is reduced by training the remote sensing skill. But even with remote sensing trained to 5 if your planets are in a wormhole, and you are not, you will have issues with your survey scans.
If you want your survey data to accurately reflect the output you will get after installing the job you must train planetology and advanced planetology skill. And if you manage your planets from several jumps away, remote sensing to 4 is well worth the training time. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
499
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Posted - 2013.03.01 16:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:That's all fine and dandy training that up but that will do nothing but give you more efficient Extractor head placement.
OP is asking why the values on the Window are different once engaged.
That value after engagement is determined by the current particular time slice in the graph. Check once the cycle hits the tallest bar and you will see a huge value being extracted. Check during one of the shorter time slices towards the end of the cycle, and the extraction values will be very low.
That is not hard to understand I hope.
No, sorry you are wrong.
Every thing you see on that screen is based off the survey results, not the actual output. This affects the location of hot spots, the colors on the planet overview, and the "estimated" extraction of each cycle. The average output is calculated on these estimates, which come from your survey skills. By having planetology and advanced planetolgy trained to 4 you will see very little change between your survey estimates and the actual extraction after installing the program.
The average per hour is calculated by adding the total of each bar or extraction cycle together and dividing it by the length of the program. When the graph changes so does the average output. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
3574
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Posted - 2013.03.01 17:39:00 -
[10] - Quote
Thank you.
I was about to yell for Tau Cabalander!
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.-á-á-á-á-á-á - Oscar Wilde - 1870's |
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Kodama Ikari
Concordiat
Spaceship Samurai
14
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Posted - 2013.03.01 18:02:00 -
[11] - Quote
Thank you for the excellent responses. I suspected this had something to do with surveying skills. Petition aborted. A few statements to make sure I have this right.
Quote: This means once you place and commit your extractor heads (save) and then view the extractor again your values can be off by quite a bit.
The second picture was after "installing" but before "submitting." After submitting, the estimates didn't change to some third value. I think this means that I could install the program, check the new value, and then adjust the cycle times accordingly if I'm trying to get say a minimum 12,000 per hour average (enough to run 2 basic factories), all without hitting submit.
Quote:
It does not end here though. There is another "margin of Error" based on your distance to the planet. If you are in orbit around the planet you are "surveying" this error is nothing, but each jump from the planet this error gets bigger. If you are remotely managing you planets from another region this error can potentially be huge. This margin of error is reduced by training the remote sensing skill. But even with remote sensing trained to 5 if your planets are in a wormhole, and you are not, you will have issues with your survey scans.
I had no idea. Thankfully I'm not trying to be a PI-God, in fact I'm just trying to run 10 planets moderately efficiently, but with ease of management prioritized far above maximum isk. This does run a bit contrary to my understanding of the remote sensing skill. The description make it seem like it increases the distance at which you can scan planets, which is a discreet yes/no condition. If yes, the other two skills would kick in, without distance being a factor. The reason I suddenly care about the numbers, is that storage has been an issue for me and I'm going to be switching from the system of p2 on each planet to maxed out p1 production with a dedicated factory planet (or 2). Since you need about 6000 units of p0 per hour to keep the p1 factories running, i wanted to use this as a rough yardstick for setting my cycle times. That's where this question came up.
Last question, once "locked in" and submitted, I can trust that the new numbers at least are truthful?
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Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
502
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Posted - 2013.03.01 18:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
I run about 32 planets and have done so pretty much since PI was put into the game.
- Yes once you submit the program, the data displayed will switch from your survey/estimate to the actual output. When running many planets though using this methode gets very tedious. If you just train the planetology and advanced planetology skills to 4, which does not take long, your survey will be very close to the actual output. The couple percent it may deviate won't hurt you.
- yes, the remote sensing skill seems to indicate that it only affects the range of your scans. I have never actually has a situation where I was out of range as even at level 1 you get 1 lightyears range which is a fair bit. But I have found that training it to 4 does affect the survey accuracy when scanning from several jumps away, or even another region. One of my characters that had planetolgy and advanced planetology trained still had significant error when scanning from another region even though it was only 4 jumps away. training remote sensing corrected this error.
-Yes once submitted you are seeing the actual rate you will receive. Although It has been debated that multiple players using the same planet, or players adding facilities to the planet after yours are setup, while your cycle is still active, may change these values as the node will deplete faster with more extractors from other players sitting on it. I have had a hard time validating this as I rarely see other players networks on the planets I use.
- Be-careful with setting up extraction and factory planets in high sec, or any other system where the customs office tax is high. you can quickly eat up profits in import/export fees. this used to be the recommended method before the tax rates were changed. I often spend several mil a week(3-5M) per character on import/export fees only exporting P2, exporting P1 and importing to a factory planet, to export P3 or P4 from, the fees really add up. The price of importing and exporting P1 is not that high, but you are dealing with much bigger volumes. If you can put your factory planet somewhere you get low tax, it is well worthwhile. In high sec the fees can be equal to or higher than your profits.
-Command centers 5 is a long train. was about 18 days for me, but was well worth the time, as it allows you to easily produce P2 on a single planet without gimping your extraction. Also get far away from Jita. if you can find planet nobody else is using you can easily keep up with the demands of your factories, even in high sec. |
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
316
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 10:28:00 -
[13] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote: It does not end here though. There is another "margin of Error" based on your distance to the planet. If you are in orbit around the planet you are "surveying" this error is nothing, but each jump from the planet this error gets bigger. If you are remotely managing you planets from another region this error can potentially be huge. This margin of error is reduced by training the remote sensing skill. But even with remote sensing trained to 5 if your planets are in a wormhole, and you are not, you will have issues with your survey scans.
If you want your survey data to accurately reflect the output you will get after installing the job you must train planetology and advanced planetology skill. And if you manage your planets from several jumps away, remote sensing to 4 is well worth the training time.
Whut? I thought that problem went away once you've actually built your Command Center on a planet. Because of that assumption, I haven't trained the Remote Sensing, insofar as it's a prerequisite for other things.
And since I usually manage my planet from much more than 9 light years away, will the skill actually make any difference?
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Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
3586
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 14:16:00 -
[14] - Quote
Sometimes learning PI seems like unearthing some kind of ancient arcana with the transmutation of metals even being involved.
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.-á-á-á-á-á-á - Oscar Wilde - 1870's |
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
317
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 01:27:00 -
[15] - Quote
Okay, I'm doing a sort of semi-formal test of Remote Senting.
12 or so hours ago, I set up extraction of a specific R0 resource on a planet, one I've been using for a while. I made sure to set the exractor heads on or close to the sweetest and most white spots on the planet's surface. Then I set it to run.
Now I'm far away, in another region, in Jita, and when I open up the interface for that planet, I see that the white spots are somewhere rather different from where I placed the extractor heads. So I'm heading back towards the planet, to see if the resource colour map will change when I'm orbiting the planet. I might be able to see if there's an intermediate difference when I'm a couple of jumps out from it, but not sure I can actually catch that, since I'm on autopilot.
I've got Remote Sensing trained to 3, on its way to 4 now.
I will report back with my findings in some minutes. No screenshots, though. But I'm quite sure I did place those extractor heads on the whitest spots. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
3593
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 01:31:00 -
[16] - Quote
Skill Training got us all into this mess.
Only Remote Sensing can get us out. 
Data obtained by the empirical method is always the best. Please report.
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.-á-á-á-á-á-á - Oscar Wilde - 1870's |
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
317
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 01:37:00 -
[17] - Quote
4 jumps away, the colour map appears to be completely unchanged. It looks as if some ****** placed the extractor heads, rather than myself.
2 jumps away, still no change. It's been 17 hours since I started the extraction process on a 3-day cycle. Resource placement can't have changed that much in 3/4 of a day! It'll be interesting to see what happens when I'm in orbit, but as of now my guess is no change. |
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
317
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 01:43:00 -
[18] - Quote
No difference, as far as I can see, between a scan done from other-region Jita, and a scan done while orbiting the planet itself.
I'm methodologically lazy, though. Can't be arsed to much about with screenshots and so forth. But until somebody else tests for the effect of Remote Sensing vs distance and skill level, the verdict is that the skill makes no difference once you've set up the Command Center.
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Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
440
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Posted - 2013.03.04 12:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
Kodama Ikari wrote:When arranging extractor heads, you can see the projected output over the cycle as a series of bars. the Per Hour average is calculated for the entire program, as well as a total output. See here: http://i49.tinypic.com/2epsmzs.jpgBut once you hit install program, you can click on the extractor again. You see something different See here: http://i49.tinypic.com/i1jh3n.jpgOnce changes are submitted, the later program remains in place. Please explain what is going on here.
Survery results are estimates based on skill level, the hot spot is not actually exactly where it appears to be.
PI Profitability spreadsheet
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Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
317
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Posted - 2013.03.08 06:25:00 -
[20] - Quote
Not empty posting. I merely remain curious about the exact utility of the Remote Sensing skill, in the Planetary Industry category.
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