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Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY
380
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Posted - 2013.03.21 23:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
Why there is not a Clone facility at a POS yet? This would be something really usefull. Please read this! > New POS system (Block Built) Please read this! > Refining and Reprocess Revamp |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
1278
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Posted - 2013.03.21 23:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
Rorqual, Titan, or (IIRC ... ) supercarrier.
else, no. This would be OP. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY
380
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Posted - 2013.03.22 00:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
But if there is technology to build it up in a ship it makes no sense to don't be able to build in a POS. Also there are the outposts, and oly big alliances control them.... Don't you think that alowing this to be constructed in a POS would give a new "Spark" to new eden? At last all those players that don't have outposts/rorquals/titans/supercarriers would aprove the new power ballance change, Please read this! > New POS system (Block Built) Please read this! > Refining and Reprocess Revamp |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
1278
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Posted - 2013.03.22 00:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
assuming you had a fully fleshed out idea (other than "wouldn't it be cool if..."), then maybe something could be done. But for right now, you don't have that...
also, you have to keep "Malcanis' Law" in mind ...
Malcanis' Law wrote: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of 'new players', that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
I know you didn't specifically say "new players" specifically, but you're mentioning them by proxy. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY
380
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Posted - 2013.03.22 00:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
So you say that This simply can't be done because it is better for the new players other then the old ones?
This sounds dirt, gross, and much like reality.... You convinced me that CCP will never do this and I should abandon all my hope in CCP. Please read this! > New POS system (Block Built) Please read this! > Refining and Reprocess Revamp |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
718
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Posted - 2013.03.22 00:47:00 -
[6] - Quote
If it had a limited number of clones that could be stored, it would be irrevelant to older players, and the ones it would be relevant to are in the same situation as a "new-ish player"
Somewhere I read about CCP considering Jump Clone to WH with the addition of just such a POS mod, i believe it was one of the CSM minutes regarding POS re-do. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Hakan MacTrew
Caledonian Light Industries Sick N' Twisted
419
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Posted - 2013.03.22 11:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
Right now, a clone bay in a POS would completely change many types of warfare.
To use a clone bay in a ship, it must be piloted and fueled. To use it in a POS opens too many options. WH warfare would take a massive hit, because an attacker would be at an even bigger disadvantage than they are now, (mass limits,) and null warfare would also take a hit because of the force projection it would allow.
As part of a POS revamp, I think this could be an option though. I think it would need a massively upgraded POS, (station level upgrade,) and I think JCs would probably be able to work this way with a second upgrade. MODULAR DRONES
MORE ORE SHIPS |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
1281
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Posted - 2013.03.22 11:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
Alx Warlord wrote:So you say that This simply can't be done because it is better for the new players other then the old ones?
This sounds dirt, gross, and much like reality.... You convinced me that CCP will never do this and I should abandon all my hope in CCP.
no, you've got it backwards. I'm saying it *shouldn't* be done under the banner of "it'll be good for newish players" (i.e. those without the ability to work with clones using existing mechanics*), because whatever mechanic that you come up with to help these people can (and will) be used to much greater effectiveness by the older, richer players/corps/alliances.
Hakan's post sums up a good number of what trouble this can cause in his post, so I won't re-iterate them here.
*Estel Arador Corp Services ignored for this discussion.
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
720
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 13:34:00 -
[9] - Quote
But the thing is jump clones are limited to 1 jump per day to all players, the skill to get clones is only a 1x skill, and most but not all null sec alliances have at least one station or access to Titan or Rorqual. So I don't understand how this creates a force projection issue. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
1282
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 14:00:00 -
[10] - Quote
It's not so much the force projection in null (sov blocs will probably use titan bridging) as lowsec.
Assuming a group is relatively strong ... but don't have a rorq, they can set this up and churn out clones with impunity. A smaller group trying to do the same thing is met with swift retribution from a few dreads, and they can't even begin to field a proper fleet to break the other guy's clone-POS.
Sure, the same could be said for a rorqual (or other clone-capable ship) ... but in order to make clones, you need a pilot with the clone skills, AND get it into system, AND use some fuel (admittedly, not a lot), AND get it back out. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
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Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
720
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Posted - 2013.03.22 14:07:00 -
[11] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:It's not so much the force projection in null (sov blocs will probably use titan bridging) as lowsec.
There are plenty of stations in low sec which have other ways of using jump clone mechanics
Velicitia wrote: Assuming a group is relatively strong ... but don't have a rorq, they can set this up and churn out clones with impunity. A smaller group trying to do the same thing is met with swift retribution from a few dreads, and they can't even begin to field a proper fleet to break the other guy's clone-POS.
The module should have a limit to the number of clones it can hold (fixed not variable by skills) somewhere in-between that of a rorqual and a titan.
Velicitia wrote: Sure, the same could be said for a rorqual (or other clone-capable ship) ... but in order to make clones, you need a pilot with the clone skills, AND get it into system, AND use some fuel (admittedly, not a lot), AND get it back out.
Unless they did another stealth nerf you can jump to a clone vay bay thats host ship is in a POS bubble negating most of the risk of bringing the ship out. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
523
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Posted - 2013.03.22 14:47:00 -
[12] - Quote
I don't see how it would be OP, personally. Rorquals are quite accessible, and with Titans give mobile capability. POS are fixed and destructible, and there's adequate precedent for limiting the security level clone vats could be deployed at. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
1282
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 15:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Velicitia wrote:It's not so much the force projection in null (sov blocs will probably use titan bridging) as lowsec.
There are plenty of stations in low sec which have other ways of using jump clone mechanics Velicitia wrote: Assuming a group is relatively strong ... but don't have a rorq, they can set this up and churn out clones with impunity. A smaller group trying to do the same thing is met with swift retribution from a few dreads, and they can't even begin to field a proper fleet to break the other guy's clone-POS.
The module should have a limit to the number of clones it can hold (fixed not variable by skills) somewhere in-between that of a rorqual and a titan. Velicitia wrote: Sure, the same could be said for a rorqual (or other clone-capable ship) ... but in order to make clones, you need a pilot with the clone skills, AND get it into system, AND use some fuel (admittedly, not a lot), AND get it back out.
Unless they did another stealth nerf you can jump to a clone vay bay thats host ship is in a POS bubble negating most of the risk of bringing the ship out.
Downside to the stations is that you still need standing. i'm going from the angle of actually paying to install them - obviously you can just leave a JC at a station. But yeah, there are a lot more stations in low than I remember there ever being (also in high, come to think of it). So nevermind this point now.
Limited module is nice, but it's still a bit too good -- I mean, you sit it inside a dickstar and the other guy is lookin at like 120+ million HP to grind through (plus timer) before he can even touch the module. This is where it becomes imbalanced in favor of larger/older groups capable of fielding caps.
You can't light a cyno in a POS bubble (or have they allowed that now too ) ... so there's still some risk to the rorq (before it gets in the POS). One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
721
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 15:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:You can't light a cyno in a POS bubble (or have they allowed that now too ) ... so there's still some risk to the rorq (before it gets in the POS). No Cyno, but you can still light one real close to the POS, you can activate the Clone Vat Bay inside the POS though. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
1283
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 16:01:00 -
[15] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Velicitia wrote:You can't light a cyno in a POS bubble (or have they allowed that now too ) ... so there's still some risk to the rorq (before it gets in the POS). No Cyno, but you can still light one real close to the POS, you can activate the Clone Vat Bay inside the POS though.
right, and it's a damn pain getting into the bubble if you're slowboating it ... it's (in my experience, YMMV) much easier to jump in at POS A and warp into POS B (at least you'll have a semblance of "defence" from the POS). It's also just as effective to jump in at a throwaway safe.
However, these leave the rorq at risk of a point and web. I'd love to see it that local was gone, and you could have something like the Dominion trailer happen (because seriously, that situation can't happen -- the defense fleet would've known a neut/red was still in system):
"Stealth Recon uncloaking at 40..." "GO GO GO" "... He's lit a cyno!"
but as it stands right now, you don't have that in low or null for that matter ...
"oh, there's a neut here ... yeah, I'm *not* gonna light your beacon ... let's see if he leaves..." One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
721
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 16:04:00 -
[16] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Velicitia wrote:You can't light a cyno in a POS bubble (or have they allowed that now too ) ... so there's still some risk to the rorq (before it gets in the POS). No Cyno, but you can still light one real close to the POS, you can activate the Clone Vat Bay inside the POS though. right, and it's a damn pain getting into the bubble if you're slowboating it ... it's (in my experience, YMMV) much easier to jump in at POS A and warp into POS B (at least you'll have a semblance of "defence" from the POS). It's also just as effective to jump in at a throwaway safe. However, these leave the rorq at risk of a point and web. I'd love to see it that local was gone, and you could have something like the Dominion trailer happen (because seriously, that situation can't happen -- the defense fleet would've known a neut/red was still in system): "Stealth Recon uncloaking at 40..." "GO GO GO" "... He's lit a cyno!" but as it stands right now, you don't have that in low or null for that matter ... "oh, there's a neut here ... yeah, I'm *not* gonna light your beacon ... let's see if he leaves..." That's true, but it is possible to keep a Rorqual in a off lined SMA, that way only one pilot needs to make it to the pos online the SMA jump in the Rorqual and fire up the Clone vat bay Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
1938
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 16:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
This is an interesting idea.....
Why exactly do we want it? Easier access to clone facilities? I'm not sure that we need this... Clone facilities are available via Titans, Rorquals, many NPC stations (once you have corp and/or personal standings), and ALL Player Controlled Outposts... The ability to put a JC in a POS? This is the true benefit of this suggestion. You can't JC into a POS without a Titan or Rorqual, and that limits how quickly you can respond to an event at the POS. I honestly view the ability to instantly JC to a pos under attack, and land safely within the POS shields as a very BAD thing: a.) You can try to claim that you can already do such a thing with a titan or Rorqual, but that's simply disingenuous, as logging in a Titan or Rorqual to a POS under siege is terribly risky. Furthermore, if you already have a Pilot that can log into the POS, you don't need to JC there!!
b.) Currently, without the ability to JC to the POS, when a POS is attacked you have to JC to a nearby station (which often is NOT nearby) and then fly, in space, to the POS (which is often risky and full of challenges). This makes setting stront levels to optimize RF timers trivial... This makes emptying lab, corp, & ship hangars trivial... This makes getting a cyno ship onto the field to cyno in a response trivial... Yuck...
c.) It would significantly change WH dynamics... Currently, if you are in a WH and get podded, you end up in k-space, and far from any action going on in the WH. This creates a balancing factor for WH invasions: The enemy has a mass-limited amount of force they can bring into the WH to assault a fortified force. That force potentially has access to significantly more ships, but every time the enemy pods a resident, that resident is removed from the fight. Changing this would make assaulting fortified WH's even more challenging, which I don't think is necessary!! (although I'll defer to WH raiders on this opinion).
Could this be balanced? Maybe, but I doubt it... because the real reason you want this is probably the reasons I DONT want this...
In short... NO.... |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
1283
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 16:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote: That's true, but it is possible to keep a Rorqual in a off lined SMA, that way only one pilot needs to make it to the pos online the SMA jump in the Rorqual and fire up the Clone vat bay
Edit: This also kind of advocates the addition of a POS clone vat bay, due to the logistics needed in the situation described above
True, didn't think of the "you can leave a Rorq there" bit ... but then again, I'm not one to leave 2b+ ship sitting in a relatively easily destroyed location (on top of the 1b+ in POS equipment).
I'm more a proponent of the situation that could unfold, because player conflict = good. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
175
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Posted - 2013.03.22 23:26:00 -
[19] - Quote
Services should definitely be a part of a POS revamp.
Medical bay services as well as docking and repair, though maybe it might have an associated cost (have to put biomass in the med bay and have spare minerals and/or nanite paste in the repair yard, and both take a few minutes to complete their actions) |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY
381
|
Posted - 2013.03.23 09:09:00 -
[20] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
c.) It would significantly change WH dynamics... Currently, if you are in a WH and get podded, you end up in k-space, and far from any action going on in the WH. This creates a balancing factor for WH invasions: The enemy has a mass-limited amount of force they can bring into the WH to assault a fortified force. That force potentially has access to significantly more ships, but every time the enemy pods a resident, that resident is removed from the fight. Changing this would make assaulting fortified WH's even more challenging, which I don't think is necessary!! (although I'll defer to WH raiders on this opinion).
Could this be balanced? Maybe, but I doubt it... because the real reason you want this is probably the reasons I DONT want this...
In short... NO....
Not really, My corp live in a WH C3, we have a rorqual and some other capital ships there.... so if we get podded, we can go to the rorquall using JC
Extremelly fortified WHs need allot of time to take down, and you should sneak and put a POS inside too, if the system is large enough you can build it out of their POS D-Scan range. So you get a rally point where you can gather forces. Once you have built the POS, and onlined allot of guns, you can Study your enemy and build your own capital ship fleet, whille holding your ground. Please read this! > New POS system (Block Built) Please read this! > Refining and Reprocess Revamp |
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Reppyk
Yarrbear Inc. BricK sQuAD.
374
|
Posted - 2013.03.23 11:07:00 -
[21] - Quote
Alx Warlord wrote:Not really, My corp live in a WH C3, we have a rorqual and some other capital ships there.... so if we get podded, we can go to the rorquall using JC I got bad news for you... |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
723
|
Posted - 2013.03.23 12:36:00 -
[22] - Quote
Reppyk wrote:Alx Warlord wrote:Not really, My corp live in a WH C3, we have a rorqual and some other capital ships there.... so if we get podded, we can go to the rorquall using JC I got bad news for you... I believe he is speaking if future tense, for when they do the POS revamp. They might allow JC to WH then. Maybe. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY
381
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 14:21:00 -
[23] - Quote
Reppyk wrote:Alx Warlord wrote:Not really, My corp live in a WH C3, we have a rorqual and some other capital ships there.... so if we get podded, we can go to the rorquall using JC I got bad news for you...
Yeah, it doesn't work this way, JC don't work inside WH, but could.
If the cloning facility would unbalance WH, simply make it don't work on POSs there. Please read this! > New POS system (Block Built) Please read this! > Refining and Reprocess Revamp |
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