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Dolph Carebear
Adohivatal
1
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Posted - 2013.06.24 23:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
I started looking into what to do with my many thousands of mission loot modules, and it seems that refining is the answer. I looked into the issue a bit more, and it would seem that not only is it worth refining most of my stuff, but I could also buy decent quantities of the same items on the market in Jita, refine them, and then either use or sell the minerals at a profit.
I'm pretty new to this game, so clearly I'm not the first one to notice all those sell orders below mineral prices.
The question is: am I missing something? I would imagine most items would be covered by buy orders pretty close to the mineral value, but that's not the case. I'm not saying I could just sit in station all day and make billions by buying stuff and then selling the minerals, but it certainly looks like a nice potential income stream with pretty low effort. I can refine at over 90% efficiency, and with a bit more training I can get that to perfect.
Am I missing something? Or should I have just kept my mouth shut? |
Ryelek d'Entari
The 4th Legion SQUEE.
90
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Posted - 2013.06.25 00:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
What you're missing is the amount of effort to collect those items and refine them, and potential opportunity costs.
Consider:
(a) other existing buy orders are around for those items. You'll be competing with them in the inevitable 0.01 ISK war (b) they come it at a relatively steady, though low, rate (c) many people just do as you do and reprocess their junk themselves, even at substantial refining loss
All this means that you certainly CAN make SOME profit via these buy orders (essentially refining arbitrage), but the amount of profit per day per order slot is relatively low, and you'll need to babysit the orders against competition.
So, a good thing for someone to do who has nothing better to do with their order slots. |
Nerdy McButtHurt Trald
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
21
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Posted - 2013.06.25 01:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
you could build a spreadsheet with all items in game, import costs, and see what you make a profit on melting the modules or ships.
Not that people have made a huge living doing this. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
1655
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Posted - 2013.06.25 01:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
Dolph Carebear wrote: Or should I have just kept my mouth shut?
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
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Grandma Squirel
Squirel Enterprises
17
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Posted - 2013.06.25 03:38:00 -
[5] - Quote
Make sure your using the right refine data, many meta items refine for less minerals then T1. Easy way to get burned. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Paragon Blitz
473
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Posted - 2013.06.25 06:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
When I was a mission bear, I used to have a filter for modules under 10000 ISK. They all got melted.
Then another for under 100000 and meta 3 or lower. They also got melted. (This does hit tech 1 drones, but those are cheap enough that you just buy more if you ever need them, the minerals cover 80-90% of their price anyway).
Finally, 1000000 and under meta 0 items got melted unless they were useful in some way (e.g. precursors for T2 production). These don't drop any more so now I'd replace that filter with a filter for meta 1 and 2 items that ignores price.
The only items I melt that might have been worth keeping are meta 3 versions of items I invent (which can be worth burning for invention in some situations). No big loss there, the time saved more than makes up for it.
An enemy is just a friend that you stab in the front. |
Stonkeep
Osmanli Empire
31
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Posted - 2013.06.25 07:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
I think you need to make more research before getting into this. I am pretty sure that it is extremely difficult to find "lots of stuff below mineral prices", especially big trade hubs like Jita.
Also, 90% will not be enough to make money out of this. You will be competing with people who have 100% refining with good trading skills and standings.
I would suggest check the prices again and see how it fits but trust me 99.9% of sell order are not below mineral refine prices.. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Paragon Blitz
474
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Posted - 2013.06.25 07:21:00 -
[8] - Quote
Stonkeep wrote:I think you need to make more research before getting into this. I am pretty sure that it is extremely difficult to find "lots of stuff below mineral prices", especially big trade hubs like Jita.
Also, 90% will not be enough to make money out of this. You will be competing with people who have 100% refining with good trading skills and standings.
I would suggest check the prices again and see how it fits but trust me 99.9% of sell order are not below mineral refine prices..
Not true, a good 20-30% of mission loot sells for 60-75% of (perfect) refine rates.
The thing is, you can't get the quantities you need to turn any decent profit. Think of it this way - if an item is regularly sold at 30000isk and refines for 55000 (and I can think of several), you need to buy 40 of them to make a mere million ISK.
These items are sold 1 by 1 or 2 by 2 by mission runners and there's more 0.01 ISKing competition on buying them than you might expect.
Don't be fooled by the 80% return, think in terms of millions of ISK per minute spent adjusting orders. You'll find the returns are around a horrible 0.1M/min at best. You can earn that running level 3 security missions (or earn 1-2M/min posting ingenious scams).
An enemy is just a friend that you stab in the front. |
Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
294
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Posted - 2013.06.25 09:57:00 -
[9] - Quote
its an effort/reward calculation.
The same as trading meta items in general...there is often 100% and upwards margin, but, the isk/hr is small |
Stonkeep
Osmanli Empire
31
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Posted - 2013.06.25 11:17:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote: Not true, a good 20-30% of mission loot sells for 60-75% of (perfect) refine rates.
You are wrong. Most mission loot sells for more than their refine value(or equal) and only the buy orders are lower than their reprocess value.
I know this because it is my job, i make my living with reprocessing. This true for trade hubs. If we are to talk about region orders tho it will be different.
I will give an example;
Let's look at a common mission loot, 1600mm plates. In Amarr,
Item version------------------- Lowest sell order----------Reprocess value--------Profit(after taxes)
1600mm rolled tungsten--------923,996.00------------------891,245.72--------------(-53,248.93) 1600mm titanium-----------------874,999.00------------------891,245.72--------------(-4,251.93) 1600mm crystaline---------------849,999.99------------------891,245.72 --------------(20,747.08)
As you can see only 1 item is profitable and it still requires high volume to be profitable. 100x 1600mm crystaline will only net you 2mil ISK profit, others will net you a loss.
I can give more example if necessary but most items are like this.
Mineral prices: (current in-game values of lowest sell orders at the time of writing)
Trit: 4.98 Pyre: 13.3 Mexa: 38.9 Iso: 130 Nocx: 867 Zyd: 893
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Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
1656
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Posted - 2013.06.25 14:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
Stonkeep wrote:Sabriz Adoudel wrote: Not true, a good 20-30% of mission loot sells for 60-75% of (perfect) refine rates.
You are wrong. Most mission loot sells for more than their refine value(or equal) and only the buy orders are lower than their reprocess value. I know this because it is my job, i make my living with reprocessing. This true for trade hubs. If we are to talk about region orders tho it will be different. I will give an example; Let's look at a common mission loot, 1600mm plates. In Amarr, Item version------------------- Lowest sell order----------Reprocess value--------Profit(after taxes)
1600mm rolled tungsten--------923,996.00------------------891,245.72--------------(-53,248.93) 1600mm titanium-----------------874,999.00------------------891,245.72--------------(-4,251.93) 1600mm crystaline---------------849,999.99------------------891,245.72 --------------(20,747.08) As you can see only 1 item is profitable and it still requires high volume to be profitable. 100x 1600mm crystaline will only net you 2mil ISK profit, others will net you a loss. I can give more example if necessary but most items are like this. Mineral prices: (current in-game values of lowest sell orders at the time of writing) Trit: 4.98 Pyre: 13.3 Mexa: 38.9 Iso: 130 Nocx: 867 Zyd: 893 p.s. sry about the crude chart.
You're doing it wrong, but I'd rather people believe you, so ...
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
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Stonkeep
Osmanli Empire
31
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Posted - 2013.06.25 15:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
You're doing it wrong, but I'd rather people believe you, so ...
Dumbest post ever..rofl. |
TemporalEvent
Confederation Navy Research Epsilon Fleet
5
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Posted - 2013.06.25 16:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
Stonkeep wrote:
Dumbest post ever..rofl.
This made me laugh so hard, I had to log into the forums and comment. But please, continue "doing it right". |
The Chronophage
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
38
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Posted - 2013.06.25 17:13:00 -
[14] - Quote
If you are looking at ships, be advised that the mineral cost of building most ship types (like barges and battleships) were recently increased. However, any ship that was built prior to the increase will still refine back to its original mineral amount ie. you cannot make more minerals out of thin air by building ships prior to the patch, then refining it after the patch for more minerals than what you put in.
However, many people made huge stockpiles of ships prior to the patch at the lower mineral cost and are now seemingly selling them at below "current" cost price. |
Stonkeep
Osmanli Empire
31
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Posted - 2013.06.25 17:30:00 -
[15] - Quote
TemporalEvent wrote:Stonkeep wrote:
Dumbest post ever..rofl.
This made me laugh so hard, I had to log into the forums and comment. But please, continue "doing it right".
Another DUMB post. So many of these are around the forums.
Lemme explain it for you, I have NOT written anything that I am doing. I just answered a question that was asked by the OP. However, you being dumb probably did not even read the OP so it is very normal you respond with a dumb post. Please continue posting dumb comments.
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RAW23
184
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Posted - 2013.06.25 20:11:00 -
[16] - Quote
Nerdy McButtHurt Trald wrote:you could build a spreadsheet with all items in game, import costs, and see what you make a profit on melting the modules or ships.
Not that people have made a huge living doing this.
If done right it is possible to make a fortune doing this but it requires a lot of effort. AnakieNine made something approaching a trillion isk in profits controlling the reprocess market in Domain for a few years. Flakeys also made a couple of hundred billion doing this in other regions. The optimal approach is to not only buy and reprocess the loot but then use your cheap mins and your logistical network to build the ships and equipment that the same mission runners you are buying from want to buy themselves. When you go to a station to pick up the stuff you have purchased you can also drop off a bunch of finished goods and list it on the market there. Maximum integration and efficiency yields maximum profits.
Edit - Link to a discussion
And it was 3 trillion not 1! Have a look around evesearch on the topic as there are some other threads in which Anakie talks about what he did. There are two types of EVE player:
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not. |
Dolph Carebear
Adohivatal
3
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Posted - 2013.06.25 22:23:00 -
[17] - Quote
RAW23 wrote:[quote=Nerdy McButtHurt Trald]And it was 3 trillion not 1! Have a look around evesearch on the topic as there are some other threads in which Anakie talks about what he did.
O.o
Spreadsheets really aren't my thing in Eve, and I prefer pew-pew over most everything in the game, but this might be a fun way to spend some time.
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Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
135
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Posted - 2013.06.26 01:20:00 -
[18] - Quote
I did this a lot and it can indeed be quite profitable. Over the last winter i made about 500m profit/day from it. Good days up to a billion. BUT it is quite a bit of work. First you need to identify all the items that are worth reprocessing (something in the range of 200-250 items if i'm not mistaken). Then it's not enough to put up buy orders. You have to keep an eye on mineral prices and double check for every item daily that you actualy still buy them under reprocessing value, especially the ones with thin margins. Lots of people have the same idea aswell so you have to adjust orders a few times a day which is quite tedious when you have over 100 buy orders. Also need perfect skills and standing to compete in the markets with thin margins. And if you do region wide buy orders or just a few jumps even be prepared to haul stuff from A LOT of different stations. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Paragon Blitz
481
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Posted - 2013.06.26 03:16:00 -
[19] - Quote
Stonkeep wrote:Sabriz Adoudel wrote: Not true, a good 20-30% of mission loot sells for 60-75% of (perfect) refine rates.
You are wrong. Most mission loot sells for more than their refine value(or equal) and only the buy orders are lower than their reprocess value. I know this because it is my job, i make my living with reprocessing. This true for trade hubs. If we are to talk about region orders tho it will be different. I will give an example; Let's look at a common mission loot, 1600mm plates. In Amarr, Item version------------------- Lowest sell order----------Reprocess value--------Profit(after taxes)
1600mm rolled tungsten--------923,996.00------------------891,245.72--------------(-53,248.93) 1600mm titanium-----------------874,999.00------------------891,245.72--------------(-4,251.93) 1600mm crystaline---------------849,999.99------------------891,245.72 --------------(20,747.08) As you can see only 1 item is profitable and it still requires high volume to be profitable. 100x 1600mm crystaline will only net you 2mil ISK profit, others will net you a loss. I can give more example if necessary but most items are like this. Mineral prices: (current in-game values of lowest sell orders at the time of writing) Trit: 4.98 Pyre: 13.3 Mexa: 38.9 Iso: 130 Nocx: 867 Zyd: 893 p.s. sry about the crude chart.
You picked a legitimately useful type of item. Try again with an item type no one would often fit to a ship. Frigate-sized remote armor repairers come to mind, or meta 3 or lower EWAR modules.
An enemy is just a friend that you stab in the front. |
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
135
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Posted - 2013.06.26 12:59:00 -
[20] - Quote
He's also looking at sell orders which is almost useless for this job. Mission loot is a market thriving on buy orders for the most part (like salvage). Exception being the couple meta items that people actualy use to fit their ships (most loot items are not). Even then 1600mm plates are still good items for reprocessing from my expereince. The margin is rather thin but there is good volume in this market. |
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AnakieNine
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
6
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Posted - 2013.06.26 15:25:00 -
[21] - Quote
I don't post often but still read these forums regularly.
Reprocessing is a lot of work (especially region buying) but if you like a challenge and think big it can pay well. I made my first 800b by reprocessing items, 3 trillion that was my net asset value from trading at the end of being an extremely active trader. I have to say 800b back then seemed a lot more than it is now though. :) I stopped reprocessing when CCP introduced the loot/reprocessing nerf. The loot nerf dropped the amount of reprocessed minerals in domain to about 25% of what it was. Since then the loot we reprocess has been increasing for various reasons. The market is slowly increasing again and getting nearer to its old size.
IMO though it is easier now to find good items to trade in Jita. Jita is definitely not as aggressive as it used to be.
btw Raw are you back as well? It has been a while |
Stonkeep
Osmanli Empire
31
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Posted - 2013.06.26 16:44:00 -
[22] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
You picked a legitimately useful type of item. Try again with an item type no one would often fit to a ship. Frigate-sized remote armor repairers come to mind, or meta 3 or lower EWAR modules.
You are missing the point. It does not matter what item I can show as an example.
The points is, this reprocessing business will not work with sell orders. You need buy orders and than you can make money with reprocessing. Not only that, you need perfect refining, 6.67 corp standing with the station owner and great trade skills. If you have all of this, you will make money with reprocessing and like some big ones already posted here, you can make good money.
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Llyandrian
Livestock Science Exchange
84
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Posted - 2013.06.26 21:21:00 -
[23] - Quote
It is good way for a newbie to pad a shallow wallet, but is alot work for the returns long term. |
AnakieNine
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
7
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Posted - 2013.06.26 22:48:00 -
[24] - Quote
Llyandrian wrote: It is good way for a newbie to pad a shallow wallet, but is alot work for the returns long term.
Exactly there are a lot of easier ways to make isk. You need a lot of isk to make it work and even more time. The reason I did it was because back then imo it accounted for about 30% of the mineral market. This combined with direct mineral purchases meant you could effect the mineral market and feel mineral trends early. My goal was to start doing the same in the other regions and play with the mineral markets for even larger sums of isk, but I was getting a bit bored with the markets/game and then CCP introduced the massive loot nerf. |
SencneS
Incertae Sedis
30
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Posted - 2013.07.01 20:47:00 -
[25] - Quote
Dolph Carebear wrote:Spreadsheets really aren't my thing in Eve, and I prefer pew-pew over most everything in the game, but this might be a fun way to spend some time.
If you don't do Spreadsheets this type of activity is not for you.
I used an Access Database with the entire EVE Refinable item with multi-tier breakdown (For braking down T2 and capital ships into their raw components etc). From that database it pulls the current buy and sell prices from EVE's Cache into an Excel sheet. I then simply enter the price and item and Excel with the help of the database tells me if its worth buying to melt down.
Though every once and a while there was some real big screw ups or choice times when people attempted to manipulate minerals. Though, that was a long time ago it was, I think everyone got just a little bit smarter when CCP put in the "Global" Est. Price in the game.
Like someone said - It's good for new players to pad their wallet a little before doing anything else, but you can make more doing other activities. |
yav at
The Magic Conch
0
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Posted - 2013.07.02 08:05:00 -
[26] - Quote
SencneS wrote:I used an Access Database with the entire EVE Refinable item with multi-tier breakdown (For braking down T2 and capital ships into their raw components etc). From that database it pulls the current buy and sell prices from EVE's Cache into an Excel sheet. I then simply enter the price and item and Excel with the help of the database tells me if its worth buying to melt down. . I've been trying to do this by hand and without API checks, because I'm still new to Eve's spreadsheet insanity. So far I'm only interested in Tech1 to Meta 4 modules as I haven't got the ISK for handling bigger goods yet. It's somehow doable but excruciatingly slow and tedious.
I haven't yet been able to use EVE Refinery as a direct replacement for this procedure, maybe it's not possible.
Would you mind trading your version of this file for ISK? |
RAW23
194
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Posted - 2013.07.02 11:00:00 -
[27] - Quote
AnakieNine wrote:
btw Raw are you back as well? It has been a while
Yeah. I made the mistake of subbing an account to have a chat with someone and got drawn back in to stay. Having had a year off has given me a new perspective on things and I'm having a lot more fun now. My time is pretty limited at the moment so I'm using it for things that I enjoy rather than 'challenging' myself to make more isk. Glad to see you're still around! There are two types of EVE player:
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not. |
RAW23
194
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Posted - 2013.07.02 11:02:00 -
[28] - Quote
yav at wrote:SencneS wrote:I used an Access Database with the entire EVE Refinable item with multi-tier breakdown (For braking down T2 and capital ships into their raw components etc). From that database it pulls the current buy and sell prices from EVE's Cache into an Excel sheet. I then simply enter the price and item and Excel with the help of the database tells me if its worth buying to melt down. . I've been trying to do this by hand and without API checks, because I'm still new to Eve's spreadsheet insanity. So far I'm only interested in Tech1 to Meta 4 modules as I haven't got the ISK for handling bigger goods yet. It's somehow doable but excruciatingly slow and tedious. I haven't yet been able to use EVE Refinery as a direct replacement for this procedure, maybe it's not possible. Would you mind trading your version of this file for ISK?
While databases add convenience and speed, spending some time working things out by hand gives you a much more intimate understanding of the markets. There are two types of EVE player:
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not. |
AnakieNine
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
7
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Posted - 2013.07.02 11:28:00 -
[29] - Quote
RAW23 wrote: Yeah. I made the mistake of subbing an account to have a chat with someone and got drawn back in to stay. Having had a year off has given me a new perspective on things and I'm having a lot more fun now. My time is pretty limited at the moment so I'm using it for things that I enjoy rather than 'challenging' myself to make more isk. Glad to see you're still around!
Sounds a lot like me. One month before the patch I got drawn back in as well. I have re-subbed a few accounts just to make life a little easier for the few hours I get back on.
Good to see you back. |
SencneS
Incertae Sedis
30
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Posted - 2013.07.02 14:46:00 -
[30] - Quote
yav at wrote:Would you mind trading your version of this file for ISK?
RAW23 wrote:While databases add convenience and speed, spending some time working things out by hand gives you a much more intimate understanding of the markets.
I have to agree with RAW here. Working this stuff out gives you an undeniable understanding of the market, something no one can really teach you effectively. The refine/reprocess amounts are available to anyone and are public knowledge..
You can start here - http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/market.php An example of what you're looking for is here - http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=11325 Scroll the bottom of the page look under "Recycle Output"
I'll give you a small tip here which may be a little more complex than you'll want it to be. Make sure you use the entire price of the item and break down each component into their worth. I'll use that 1600mm plate as an example.
Lets assume you pay the "Market Price" (At the top of the page) of 923,293 ISK
Each of the minerals it breaks down into also has a market price. Your first step is to work out it's price according the market price of the minerals. - Which according to Chrukers is - 940,177 ISK. So you could melt it down, and sell the minerals and make a 16,884 ISK profit.
Advance Pricing :- You should note, this is not required unless you plan on using the minerals to manufacture items. You need to work out the price of each mineral according to their contribution your overall cost.
To do that, you need to do the following. [Individual Mineral Market Price] * ( [Total Cost] / [Total Market Value] )
That sounds and looks worse than it really is, here is the Trit part of the 1600mm Plate. Trit has a market value of 5 ISK. Your cost was 923,293 ISK The value of the minerals broken down is 940,177 ISK.
Your formula for Trit would look like this - 5 * ( 923,293 / 940,177 ) = 4.92 (Rounded up)
Your per unit mineral cost if you did the above for each mineral would be:- Tritanium4.92 ISK Pyerite12.77 ISK Mexallon41.25 ISK Isogen145.35 ISK Zydrine921.16 ISK Megacyte2299.95 ISK
There are many ways to do this exact thing, this is the fastest. |
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