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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
523
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Posted - 2013.07.22 17:16:00 -
[511] - Quote
Speedkermit Damo wrote: I agree with most of what you say. I am just of the opinion that it should not be possible to cloak up in a system for hours end end without running a risk of being scanned down and killed.
But I'm sure you're ok with me clone jumping into your station and sitting afk for hours on end without running the exact same risk. Or jumping in your system in a fast tackle ship and just chosing a safe and burning up and going afk for hours. The effect is the same, I assume no risk and I provide a reasonable doubt of security. At any moment I could return to my keyboard and uncloak, or undock in a hunter ship or suddenly warp to a pre-determined spot to fish for an unsuspecting victim. Yet while you seem to accept the risk of the latter two, you are unwilling to accept the risk of the former.
You might say the latter two there is risk, but I disagree. There is just as much risk decloaking on a target as there is undocking and running in a straight line. The risk is that someone might actually be paying attention and be willing to do something about it. Yo0u might say you can hawkeye the guestlist and camp the undock (though strangely that is performing the same job as the afk cloaker, its keeping you from being productive, lol), and maybe you can get someone who can fly a faster ship than I can and maybe get lucky enough ot probe me down, warp in, and somehow catch me, but if you're willing to put the effort into doing those things then WHY ARE YOU NOT WILLING TO PUT THE EFFORT INTO WATCHING YOUR OVERVIEW FOR A DECLOAK AND REACTING ACCORDINGLY?
Quote: I don't think AFK cloaking is good for nullsec. CCP should be encouraging players to actually do things in nullsec space, Ratting. mining, etc. Which in turn encourages roaming gangs, defence fleets and fights, Actual PvP. Instead most of nullsec is empty systems, cloaky campers, and everyone else hiding behind POS sheilds.
Yes, all he nullbears provide such a rich target environment for roaming gangs. Oh wait, no, they dock up anytime one pokes its head into system. Good fight, I guess. |
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
170
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 17:19:00 -
[512] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: You can live in fear of them if you want, or be jealous of their imaginary safety, I choose to keep playing the game.
Respect.
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Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
170
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Posted - 2013.07.22 17:31:00 -
[513] - Quote
Kijo Rikki wrote:[ Yes, all he nullbears provide such a rich target environment for roaming gangs. Oh wait, no, they dock up anytime one pokes its head into system. Good fight, I guess. Honestly, I don't blame them for doing this - Initially, at least. Until they know what they're facing. The tactical thinking behind the 'Dock-Up' or 'Safe-Up' is suond. What comes next is the important bit: Determine what you've got incomming. Acquire intelligence on the stranger(s); check killboards, employment histories, search a few key forum sites, determine what ships they've brought... Basically, determine their capabilities and intentions.
Then find & implement appropriate counter(s). |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
523
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Posted - 2013.07.22 17:34:00 -
[514] - Quote
I agree, but it shouldn't take 30 minutes of us sitting on the undock waiting for a response to get this intel.
I respect the ones that do, though I suspect the groups of people who do respond to a roaming gang are not as affected by an afk cloaker. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
539
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 17:34:00 -
[515] - Quote
Plastic Psycho wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote:[ Yes, all he nullbears provide such a rich target environment for roaming gangs. Oh wait, no, they dock up anytime one pokes its head into system. Good fight, I guess. Honestly, I don't blame them for doing this - Initially, at least. Until they know what they're facing. The tactical thinking behind the 'Dock-Up' or 'Safe-Up' is suond. What comes next is the important bit: Determine what you've got incomming. Acquire intelligence on the stranger(s); check killboards, employment histories, search a few key forum sites, determine what ships they've brought... Basically, determine their capabilities and intentions. Then find & implement appropriate counter(s).
I posted something about this on that subject some time ago, I forget which bad-thread it was in (probably this one), they all run together eventually.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:A smart player avoids handing out free kills to his enemy.
A coward whines about having to do it in the first place.
Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
170
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Posted - 2013.07.22 17:35:00 -
[516] - Quote
Kijo Rikki wrote:I agree, but it shouldn't take 30 minutes of us sitting on the undock waiting for a response to get this intel. I respect the ones that do, though I suspect the groups of people who do respond to a roaming gang are not as affected by an afk cloaker. Fair points..
Usually takes me about five minutes to get a rough rundown. Detailed info takes longer. |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
523
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 17:39:00 -
[517] - Quote
I suspect the problem is two-fold: This particular class of player has no pvp ships ready to go, so when they get the intel they are frantically trying to buy ships and fits to counter, but due to a lack of general pvp experience, they may not be sure how to counter what they are seeing with their intel in the first place. |
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
170
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 17:42:00 -
[518] - Quote
Kijo Rikki wrote:I suspect the problem is two-fold: This particular class of player has no pvp ships ready to go, so when they get the intel they are frantically trying to buy ships and fits to counter, but due to a lack of general pvp experience, they may not be sure how to counter what they are seeing with their intel in the first place. Probably true.
Fate favors the prepared. Being preparred is the responsibility of the individual. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
543
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 17:48:00 -
[519] - Quote
Kijo Rikki wrote:I suspect the problem is two-fold: This particular class of player has no pvp ships ready to go, so when they get the intel they are frantically trying to buy ships and fits to counter, but due to a lack of general pvp experience, they may not be sure how to counter what they are seeing with their intel in the first place.
Why the frog are they in deep nullsec, living and ratting there, without any ships to defend themselves in that case?
That, as you put it, "particular class of player" deserves whatever they get in that case. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
526
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 17:48:00 -
[520] - Quote
Plastic Psycho wrote:BTW: An AFK Cloaker is a very solid counter to strangers in the system. Better yet, a cloaker who isn't AFK. Nothing like a spread of Combat Probes to put the wind up a strange fleet.
Truth. We had a bunch of small solar-wing and I think VoC roaming gangs a few weekends ago. I hopped out in my buzzard and dropped combat probes, split them on the gate. The system cleared out pretty well in 5 minutes, but I went afk anyway. When I got back I ran down the list on my intel channels and noted everyone bugged out or went around my system. |
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Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
526
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 17:49:00 -
[521] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote:I suspect the problem is two-fold: This particular class of player has no pvp ships ready to go, so when they get the intel they are frantically trying to buy ships and fits to counter, but due to a lack of general pvp experience, they may not be sure how to counter what they are seeing with their intel in the first place. Why the frog are they in deep nullsec, living and ratting there, without any ships to defend themselves in that case? That, as you put it, "particular class of player" deserves whatever they get in that case.
Renters, man. They pay good money and some, not all, expect the alliance they pay money to to provide their protection. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
543
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 17:52:00 -
[522] - Quote
Quote:Renters, man. They pay good money and some, not all, expect the alliance they pay money to to provide their protection.
So, is that what all this bullshit really boils down to, then? "The customer is always right"? Yeesh. You'd think people would understand the concept of a protection racket. You pay me, to have me protect you from the things I would normally do to you. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
174
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Posted - 2013.07.22 18:15:00 -
[523] - Quote
Kijo Rikki wrote:Plastic Psycho wrote:BTW: An AFK Cloaker is a very solid counter to strangers in the system. Better yet, a cloaker who isn't AFK. Nothing like a spread of Combat Probes to put the wind up a strange fleet. Truth. We had a bunch of small solar-wing and I think VoC roaming gangs a few weekends ago. I hopped out in my buzzard and dropped combat probes, split them on the gate. The system cleared out pretty well in 5 minutes, but I went afk anyway. When I got back I ran down the list on my intel channels and noted everyone bugged out or went around my system. Amazing, the power of fear. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
548
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 18:19:00 -
[524] - Quote
Plastic Psycho wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote:Plastic Psycho wrote:BTW: An AFK Cloaker is a very solid counter to strangers in the system. Better yet, a cloaker who isn't AFK. Nothing like a spread of Combat Probes to put the wind up a strange fleet. Truth. We had a bunch of small solar-wing and I think VoC roaming gangs a few weekends ago. I hopped out in my buzzard and dropped combat probes, split them on the gate. The system cleared out pretty well in 5 minutes, but I went afk anyway. When I got back I ran down the list on my intel channels and noted everyone bugged out or went around my system. Amazing, the power of fear.
Fear leads to anger! Anger leads to hate! Hate... leads to shitposting! Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Soko99
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
67
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 18:27:00 -
[525] - Quote
Rishna Katar wrote: stuff
let's call a spade a spade here.. You don't want the ability to tell if a player is AFK or not.. What you want is the ability to tell if the player is NOT AFK. |
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
175
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 18:27:00 -
[526] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Fear leads to anger! Anger leads to hate! Hate... leads to shitposting !
Nooooo...!
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Soko99
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
67
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 18:32:00 -
[527] - Quote
Far Hone wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote: When they're AFK, no threat at all.
When they come back from getting a sandwich, or the cinema, or a day out with the kids, that's when they're dangerous. And you can't know when they're back. As there's no status change whether they're there or not. (Their danger is mostly due to Cynos. By themselves they can't do /that/ much)
And don't point at wormholes as evidence that it's fine.
You can't hot drop people in wormholes.
How about a timer on the cloaker? Or, a random event that can cause a ship to de-cloak? The random event can be mitigated by the level of cloaking skills. Just a thought.
that exists.. called logging in and logging out.. as well as using intel to get them on their way to your system..
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Lucas Kell
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
210
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 18:34:00 -
[528] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Since there is no "right" or "wrong" in this case, there really truly is no benefit to continuing to argue. Buit there is a right or wrong. Wrong is wanting to change something not because it's bad but only because you don't like it. Right (ie, what the rest of us are doing) in this situation is saying that the game provides enough tools (that weak people refuse to use) and that if there is a problem, it is only a problem with player's mindsets, not the game itself. Quote: CCP just need to add a poll feature and this could be dealt with easily. 1 vote per person on the matter and they would see which side is more supported.
The problem with democracy is that it works great till people figure out they can just vote themselves money from the treasury. This is the exact same situation. In a case like this, CCP is more obligated to provide a good game than bow to the ignorant whims of people who can't figure out a video game. Quote: When asked for 3 words that describe eve players on the questionnaire, my first was "Opinionated". These threads show that to be very true.
We have to be opinionated, not standing up and challenging stupidity is the exact same thing as saying stupidity is ok. It's not. I rat in null sec all day long and the fact that I rarely get killed and rarely let other people disrupt me proves that this issue is not a problem. It is not my (or the game's) fault that other people can't figure that out. Again though, this is opinion. You can't say you are right and everyone against you is wrong, that's arrogance plain and simple. There are people with opinions on both sides, neither is right or wrong. You can;t say because it is change it is wrong because there have been thousands and thousands of changes made to EVE since it's beginning to change the way things work. In this case it would be in my opinion changing it for the better. In your opinion its a bad change. That's how thing stand, 2 opinions, no rights and wrongs.
The Indecisive Noob - A new EVE Fan Blog for news and stuff. |
Soko99
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
67
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 18:34:00 -
[529] - Quote
Speedkermit Damo wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Quote:And yet it's the AFK cloakers and their shills that want 100% safety all the time. No, many of us are just arguing that hurt feelings do not sum up having to change something that isn't broken. No. AFK cloakers and their shills insist that AFK cloaking should remain 100% risk-free, while calling anyone who questions this inbalance a coward. Double standards. Probably the same people who complain about huge swathes of null-sec being empty of pilots.
FYI: I have never AFK cloaked in the 3 or so years I've played this game. |
Lucas Kell
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
210
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 18:38:00 -
[530] - Quote
Kijo Rikki wrote:Ah yes. The afk cloaker assumes zero risk...that is until he is not afk and decides to uncloak on what he thinks, assumes, or hopes is an unsuspecting victim....funny thing is, that endeaver is not a 100% guarantee...there is indeed a risk. But while he is afk he assumes no risk. You admit it. And that's the only bit we want to see changed. Once he's no longer AFK, his risk should remain unchanged. The Indecisive Noob - A new EVE Fan Blog for news and stuff. |
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Soko99
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
68
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 18:42:00 -
[531] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote:Ah yes. The afk cloaker assumes zero risk...that is until he is not afk and decides to uncloak on what he thinks, assumes, or hopes is an unsuspecting victim....funny thing is, that endeaver is not a 100% guarantee...there is indeed a risk. But while he is afk he assumes no risk. You admit it. And that's the only bit we want to see changed. Once he's no longer AFK, his risk should remain unchanged.
So would you want this in WHs too? There's no local and sometimes, your only choice is to stay in the system AFK for hours on end, since if you logoff you decloak and thus give away your position. Same thing with logging in, you are on dscan for a quick second and a vigilant player will catch you logging in. There goes your intel gathering tool and/or your advantage since in a WH the residents have the advantage to begin with. |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
527
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 18:43:00 -
[532] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote:Ah yes. The afk cloaker assumes zero risk...that is until he is not afk and decides to uncloak on what he thinks, assumes, or hopes is an unsuspecting victim....funny thing is, that endeaver is not a 100% guarantee...there is indeed a risk. But while he is afk he assumes no risk. You admit it. And that's the only bit we want to see changed. Once he's no longer AFK, his risk should remain unchanged.
He assumes no risk and he is no threat. |
Lucas Kell
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
210
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 18:44:00 -
[533] - Quote
Kijo Rikki wrote:Speedkermit Damo wrote: I agree with most of what you say. I am just of the opinion that it should not be possible to cloak up in a system for hours end end without running a risk of being scanned down and killed.
But I'm sure you're ok with me clone jumping into your station and sitting afk for hours on end without running the exact same risk. Or jumping in your system in a fast tackle ship and just chosing a safe and burning up and going afk for hours. The effect is the same, I assume no risk and I provide a reasonable doubt of security. At any moment I could return to my keyboard and uncloak, or undock in a hunter ship or suddenly warp to a pre-determined spot to fish for an unsuspecting victim. Yet while you seem to accept the risk of the latter two, you are unwilling to accept the risk of the former. Yes, all he nullbears provide such a rich target environment for roaming gangs. Oh wait, no, they dock up anytime one pokes its head into system. Good fight, I guess. Docking is not comparable. There is a single point of exit for a docker and he can't cloak on undock. An interdictor can keep him in station and anyone in station or on grid with the station can see him undock. A cloaked player has an infinite number of entries and is in complete control of the initiation of aggro.
They would provide more targets if they weren't camped out 23/7. The Indecisive Noob - A new EVE Fan Blog for news and stuff. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2410
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 18:45:00 -
[534] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:
Again though, this is opinion. You can't say you are right and everyone against you is wrong, that's arrogance plain and simple. There are people with opinions on both sides, neither is right or wrong. You can;t say because it is change it is wrong because there have been thousands and thousands of changes made to EVE since it's beginning to change the way things work. In this case it would be in my opinion changing it for the better. In your opinion its a bad change. That's how thing stand, 2 opinions, no rights and wrongs.
There is a different between standing up for your opinions and being opinionated. Being opinionated is being arrogant about the worth of your opinions over others.
Why post just to say "I have no real argument to put forth so I'm just going to cop out"? Because that's what you just did.
CCP has said that afk cloaking is not a bad thing on multiple occasions on other sections of these forums.
I, an experienced null sec PVEr, and many others have demonstrated multiple ways to negate AFK cloaker's influence (if what they are doing can be nullified so easily then, how can they be a problem?). I even posted a Fit. (there I go again, using the tools EVE gives me instead of begging for more, in this case, warp core stabs and FoF missiles plus sentry drones).
For several years people have petitioned cloakers and gotten no where. For years people have begged to CSM to raise the issue and been rejected.
The above are facts, not opinions. The fact is CCP has had 10 years to change what you think of as a problem, yet they have not. You disregard these facts because you don't think AFK cloaking is "fair". That's an emotional value judgement. My facts trump your emotions (at least for an rational observer).
Feel free to present facts that state the contrary, and I will review them. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
549
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 18:45:00 -
[535] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Again though, this is opinion. You can't say you are right and everyone against you is wrong, that's arrogance plain and simple. There are people with opinions on both sides, neither is right or wrong. You can;t say because it is change it is wrong because there have been thousands and thousands of changes made to EVE since it's beginning to change the way things work. In this case it would be in my opinion changing it for the better. In your opinion its a bad change. That's how thing stand, 2 opinions, no rights and wrongs.
There is a different between standing up for your opinions and being opinionated. Being opinionated is being arrogant about the worth of your opinions over others.
Nope. What you are trying to do, is just handwave it all and say "Oh well, difference of opinion!". You are trying to create some kind of equivalency between the two, as if you can prop up the wrong argument by saying that everything is just everyone's opinion.
Nevermind that all opinions are not created equal (an opinion not based in facts is properly called a delusion), but in this case it simply does not apply. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Lucas Kell
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
210
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 18:45:00 -
[536] - Quote
Kijo Rikki wrote:I agree, but it shouldn't take 30 minutes of us sitting on the undock waiting for a response to get this intel. I respect the ones that do, though I suspect the groups of people who do respond to a roaming gang are not as affected by an afk cloaker. My old alliance would respond to a roam gang but not to a cloaker. Whats the point in trying to catch a cloaked nullified tengu. It's a waste of time to bother.
Kijo Rikki wrote:I suspect the problem is two-fold: This particular class of player has no pvp ships ready to go, so when they get the intel they are frantically trying to buy ships and fits to counter, but due to a lack of general pvp experience, they may not be sure how to counter what they are seeing with their intel in the first place. Most of them simply can't be bothered to time waste with someone that's just going to hide until he has a 100% chance of a kill and run. The Indecisive Noob - A new EVE Fan Blog for news and stuff. |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
529
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 18:46:00 -
[537] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote: Docking is not comparable. There is a single point of exit for a docker and he can't cloak on undock. An interdictor can keep him in station and anyone in station or on grid with the station can see him undock. A cloaked player has an infinite number of entries and is in complete control of the initiation of aggro.
They would provide more targets if they weren't camped out 23/7.
And how long is that interdictor going to sit there? How long are you going to hawkeye the guest list? How vigilant is your station eyes to wait hours and hours or days or even weeks for me ot make my move? How sure are you that you are going to see me when I make my move?
You're not. You have just as much control over a docked player as a cloaked one, I get to make the first move. I am in complete control of the initiation of aggro either way. |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
529
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 18:47:00 -
[538] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote:I agree, but it shouldn't take 30 minutes of us sitting on the undock waiting for a response to get this intel. I respect the ones that do, though I suspect the groups of people who do respond to a roaming gang are not as affected by an afk cloaker. My old alliance would respond to a roam gang but not to a cloaker. Whats the point in trying to catch a cloaked nullified tengu. It's a waste of time to bother.
Oh, so you knew what it was and perceived it not ot be a threat? You realized if you could catch a cloaked nullified tengu you could eat it for breakfast, amirite? |
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
175
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 18:48:00 -
[539] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote:Ah yes. The afk cloaker assumes zero risk...that is until he is not afk and decides to uncloak on what he thinks, assumes, or hopes is an unsuspecting victim....funny thing is, that endeaver is not a 100% guarantee...there is indeed a risk. But while he is afk he assumes no risk. You admit it. And that's the only bit we want to see changed. Once he's no longer AFK, his risk should remain unchanged. And how, pray tell, shall CCP determin he's AFK?
When I monitor a chokepoint, I don't monkey with the client. I just sit and watch. How will you know if *I* am AFK or not..? You can't know, one way or another. Neither can CCP.
Give over. Your cause is not only pointless, it's lost, too. |
Lucas Kell
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
210
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 18:49:00 -
[540] - Quote
Kijo Rikki wrote:Lucas Kell wrote: Docking is not comparable. There is a single point of exit for a docker and he can't cloak on undock. An interdictor can keep him in station and anyone in station or on grid with the station can see him undock. A cloaked player has an infinite number of entries and is in complete control of the initiation of aggro.
They would provide more targets if they weren't camped out 23/7.
And how long is that interdictor going to sit there? How long are you going to hawkeye the guest list? How vigilant is your station eyes to wait hours and hours or days or even weeks for me ot make my move? How sure are you that you are going to see me when I make my move? You're not. You have just as much control over a docked player as a cloaked one, I get to make the first move. I am in complete control of the initiation of aggro either way. What? Are you simple? ONE POINT OF EXIT. If the null players PUT IN THE TIME to watch the exit, then they can keep safe. Notice that. PUT IN THE TIME. Something an AFK cloaker has the luxury of not having to do. The Indecisive Noob - A new EVE Fan Blog for news and stuff. |
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