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ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
133
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Posted - 2013.08.20 20:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
I had another thread going here discussing the issue of log-in traps. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=269042
The "Castle" scenario is a perfect example of how this is broken.
If you were looking to siege a castle, should you realistically be able to stack all your forces outside the castle doors in the dead of night..... wave a magic wand and "hide" (log-off) your forces while being completely impervious to counter-attack and detection...
Then attack (log-in) when your scout declares the enemy is most vulnerable?
Log-in Traps:
- Provide nearly risk free PVP to the attackers - Is undetectable to the defender in most situations - Uses out of game / meta methods to provide in-game ganks - There is currently little to no counter available to the defenders - CCP has already stated via new mechanics that logging OUT to avoid PVP is not acceptable, but have yet to address log-in traps - CCP has also not given an opinion if log-in traps are within the spirit of the design of EVE, I would suspect this is not something they designed for EVE but have yet to directly address it.
Solution
One solution that after consideration seemed to be the best (and least intrusive) would be a new feature via the probing system to gain some sort of count on how many actively subscribed pilots are logged out in x system.
- You would only be able to see how many logged off pilots are in space (not in a station).
- There would be no information on who the pilot was nor what ship they logged out in. This could be added in the future if CCP finds it useful (Personally, I think this would be a good idea. Logging out your ship shouldn't mean complete immunity from being detected.)
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RoAnnon
Strategic Acquisitions Group Tactical Research Lab
256
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Posted - 2013.08.20 20:23:00 -
[2] - Quote
Hunting for Cap Fleet form-up systems, are we? So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter. |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
5837
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Posted - 2013.08.20 20:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
RoAnnon wrote:Hunting for Cap Fleet form-up systems, are we?
What would give you THAT idea.... Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
1579
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Posted - 2013.08.20 20:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
Would this not be made entirely useless by the mere existence of a shitload of blues in your systems? |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
3088
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Posted - 2013.08.20 21:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
yeah... I'm going to go with "it's useless without providing way more power than it should."
It's useless because... - you would not be able to differentiate between friendly, hostile, and neutral players... and while I have no precise numbers, it's a pretty safe bet that there are tens of thousands of different characters logged off in the middle of no where. - most PvP gangs don't bring a prober (or equip one of their combat ships with a probe). Those that do will be more concerned with finding available targets rather than offline ones.
In order to not make it useless you would have to give the probes the ability to decern friendly, hostile, and neutral targets... but the only way to reliably do that is to provide actual intel such as name and/or corp name... which borders on overpowered as it can be used as a reliable intel tool against enemy assets and can be used to completely avoid conflict.
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
134
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Posted - 2013.08.20 21:15:00 -
[6] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:yeah... I'm going to go with "it's useless without providing way more power than it should."
It's useless because... - you would not be able to differentiate between friendly, hostile, and neutral players... and while I have no precise numbers, it's a pretty safe bet that there are tens of thousands of different characters logged off in the middle of no where. - most PvP gangs don't bring a prober (or equip one of their combat ships with a probe). Those that do will be more concerned with finding available targets rather than offline ones.
In order to not make it useless you would have to give the probes the ability to decern friendly, hostile, and neutral targets... but the only way to reliably do that is to provide actual intel such as name and/or corp name... which borders on overpowered as it can be used as a reliable intel tool against enemy assets and can be used to completely avoid conflict.
have an opposing idea to fix the issue? |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1083
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Posted - 2013.08.20 22:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote: have an opposing idea to fix the issue?
There is no issue. Dock up, POS up, or quit logging off in the same safe spots. Renew your gate tacticals regularly. Quit getting caught. If it looks like bait, it is. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
172
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Posted - 2013.08.20 23:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
I think it's a sensible idea.
It's not perfect intel, but it's better than nothing, and actually if you know the system it will tell you a lot. Consider:
Day 1: 50 ships logged off ... Day 30: 50 ships logged off Day 31: 90 ships logged off (uh oh!)
That tells me a *lot*!
It tells me I don't what to be there unless I'm in a 41-man fleet!
If I'm in a cat 5 wormhole in my POS it tells me its time to either get on the bat-phone or start packing up my stuff right quick!
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
217
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Posted - 2013.08.21 00:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote: have an opposing idea to fix the issue?
stop being bad at getting spyzors into enemy crews?
using your "castle siege" model since you would never ever abuse this to find staging systems for massive hot drops even the lowest level terriibad spy is of use. They'd go in your comm channels:
hey y'all, we snuck in 300 ships in system xyz and were told to log. FC gave instructions to be frosty and on comms 1000-1300 eve time.
In this case even an alt spy still in trial phase of joining a corp is of use. As trials aer usually on every op they can be to you know, make it past trial.
Unlike the normal attacks where your low level spy will not know target system until he right clicks jump on titan and see where he lands. Then he is useless....you are already know the target system, it be the one with a huge red red local spike or the pos is sending out its "I am being shot message".
You could also instruct members to do wierd stuff like post on alliance forums when they see 500 ships land in a station system (station being your castle) and just vanish. that way if jsut 1 oceanic player sees this then goes to bed, a USTZ plyaer who logs in hours later will know of it. |
Ruaro
Space monitoring
2
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Posted - 2013.08.21 05:52:00 -
[10] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote:
have an opposing idea to fix the issue?
It's not my own fresh idea or smth but what if add some delay to target anything after login like 15 secs? This way aware target can gtfo fast |
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Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
104
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Posted - 2013.08.21 05:57:00 -
[11] - Quote
could it be a pos module? |
Evanga
Way So Mad Axiomatic Dominion
80
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Posted - 2013.08.21 06:49:00 -
[12] - Quote
are you serious ?
worst idea ever, stop crying about afk cloakers with log off traps.
H O R R I B L E |
suid0
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
49
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Posted - 2013.08.21 07:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
So what you're trying to say is you want a way to make null safer? |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
104
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Posted - 2013.08.21 07:10:00 -
[14] - Quote
suid0 wrote:So what you're trying to say is you want a way to make null safer? isn't that what a log-off trap does? keeps the ships perfectly safe until the last possible moment. |
suid0
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
49
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Posted - 2013.08.21 07:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
Rowells wrote:suid0 wrote:So what you're trying to say is you want a way to make null safer? isn't that what a log-off trap does? keeps the ships perfectly safe until the last possible moment.
Nope... it's a direct counter to the free intel that is local chat, it keeps the ships hidden until the last possible moment.
Also... use bounces and d-scan... if they're really camping with a logon trap... their ships will stay in space for 15m since the last aggression.
btw: I'm not arguing in favour of login traps... just against bad suggestions rage posted after someone got caught by one. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
104
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Posted - 2013.08.21 07:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
suid0 wrote:it keeps the ships hidden until the last possible moment. You just repeated what i said there. Which is an attempt at more safety. In nullsec. Hiding in safety until they find a target they are sure they can kill without any losses.
suid0 wrote:btw: I'm not arguing in favour of login traps... just against bad suggestions rage posted after someone got caught by one. yeah that is what it seems like. seen a lot of these lately.
E: forum ate half of post |
suid0
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
49
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Posted - 2013.08.21 07:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
Rowells wrote:suid0 wrote:it keeps the ships hidden until the last possible moment. You just repeated what i said there. Which is an attempt at more safety. In nullsec. Hiding in safety until they find a target they are sure they can kill without any losses. suid0 wrote:btw: I'm not arguing in favour of login traps... just against bad suggestions rage posted after someone got caught by one. yeah that is what it seems like. seen a lot of these lately. E: forum ate half of post
No you are changing the context by selective quoting... They're not hidden for safety, they're hidden for intel reasons. |
Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
289
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Posted - 2013.08.21 08:09:00 -
[18] - Quote
I just had to think of the thousands of characters that were logged out in null between 2003 and 2005 and then forgotten... There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |
Ellendras Silver
Honestly We didnt know
86
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Posted - 2013.08.21 08:53:00 -
[19] - Quote
no it is not! it can be detected very easily put one or more on watchlist if they leave system while online they are in another system. if they dissapear and log off they are still in system but logged off |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15454
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Posted - 2013.08.21 10:02:00 -
[20] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote: have an opposing idea to fix the issue?
What issue?
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
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Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
226
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Posted - 2013.08.21 10:46:00 -
[21] - Quote
Your idea seems a bit counterintuitive. You want this intel so you can feel safer in your home system as i understand it but what it actualy does is to introduce a new "terror instrument" similar to afk cloaking. |
Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
294
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Posted - 2013.08.21 10:48:00 -
[22] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:Your idea seems a bit counterintuitive. You want this intel so you can feel safer in your home system as i understand it but what it actualy does is to introduce a new "terror instrument" similar to afk cloaking.
lol true, now that You've said that I think I might support the idea after all. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |
Evanga
Way So Mad Axiomatic Dominion
81
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Posted - 2013.08.21 10:56:00 -
[23] - Quote
remove watchlist, Problem solved |
seany1212
Tides of Silence Care Factor
226
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Posted - 2013.08.21 10:59:00 -
[24] - Quote
This is provided by OP who produced other such spurge posts such as this, that's ended up buried;
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=269042&find=unread
As stated already, it's not about the aggressors staying safe, it's about staying hidden from a WIDELY exploited intel tool... |
Evanga
Way So Mad Axiomatic Dominion
81
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Posted - 2013.08.21 11:03:00 -
[25] - Quote
Care factor |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
293
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Posted - 2013.08.21 11:15:00 -
[26] - Quote
Posting in a stealth boost afk cloakers thread.
Johan Toralen wrote:Your idea seems a bit counterintuitive. You want this intel so you can feel safer in your home system as i understand it but what it actualy does is to introduce a new "terror instrument" similar to afk cloaking. Pretty much this.
You could put cloaky ship in a system and 2 alts on same account offline in same system to create a visibility of gang. Double profit for an additional "intel" to your enemy. Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
seany1212
Tides of Silence Care Factor
226
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Posted - 2013.08.21 11:24:00 -
[27] - Quote
Evanga wrote:Care factor
I just got here, but i'm all for log-on traps, afk cloaking and keeping local. The only people who are creating this crap are the ones who have come to expect a sense of security in null sec and only want to make it safer, taking away the fundamentals of null sec... |
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