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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 20 post(s) |
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
35
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Posted - 2013.11.08 23:13:00 -
[331] - Quote
Mwaheed S0n wrote: For instance, your Raven fitted with torps lists 1,000dps (and will mostly get that much attacking battlecruisers and above), whereas your Raven fitted with rapid heavies lists 800dps (and will apply that much against cruisers).
Both examples are far from truth with second one being very far from the truth. |
Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
289
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 23:14:00 -
[332] - Quote
Does anyone else feel that 95% of the people that post in these threads have no f-ing idea what they are talking about?
There is a cancel button just to the left of the post button and if you aren't pushing cancel more often that pushing post you are likely wasting everyones life.
My perspective for what it is worth is that this will be a huge buff for those people that like to prey on scouts and tackle at the edges of fights. Getting a quick kill then disengaging away before the victims friends arrive and a moderate nerf to f1 monkeys who still decide to fit these missiles.
Will be interesting to see how it pans out. CCP thankyou for actually trying new things instead of taking the safe easy road. |
Sara Navorski
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 23:16:00 -
[333] - Quote
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:Bob FromMarketing wrote:
Then the FC will call for the fleet to load Mjolnir instead.
with that in mind, i think it should be designed so if your charges reach 0 it takes 40 seconds to reload but to switch charge types (albeit without going back to a full reload) it would take the normal amount of time. (or no time, i dunno, that could be another bonus of using them)
Stop firing with 1 round left, short reload, open fire. OP. |
stoicfaux
3334
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 23:17:00 -
[334] - Quote
1. turn off auto-reload.
2. deploy mobile base hut/yurt
3. right click base, select open fitting services
4. reload via fitting screen
5. continue shooting.
Haven't had a chance to try it on the test server yet, but...
|
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
164
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Posted - 2013.11.08 23:19:00 -
[335] - Quote
Mwaheed S0n wrote:The proposed changes seem to be missing the mark for the intended purpose.
As I see it, Rapid Lights are used to kill tackle (frigs and destroyers) since the warhead is smaller/travels faster than Heavies/HAMs, thus the almighty DPS number is lower overall, but the applied dps on smaller targets is higher than if HAMs were used--due to signature radius/velocity factor.
Keeping in the theme of better damage based on signature radius/velocity factor, Rapid Heavies should be designed to have less applied dps against battleships and more applied dps against cruisers for example. For instance, your Raven fitted with torps lists 1,000dps (and will mostly get that much attacking battlecruisers and above), whereas your Raven fitted with rapid heavies lists 800dps (and will apply that much against cruisers). In this example with made-up numbers, you would not want to take torps against cruisers because you might not hit them for very much, and you would not want to take rapid heavies against a BC/BS gang because you'd miss out on sheer damage output. This makes it a context-based decision where just a few tweaks on numbers are all that's needed due to the nature of warhead size/sig radius factor.
One of the benefits of missiles is being able to switch damage types and have it not take 40 seconds. Having an initial burst is okay, but the detriment is way too huge and kills how missiles work.
TL;DR Rapids are for smaller sig/higher velocity targets, so don't screw up their reload time--just play with the sig radius factor and applied dps potential. This. |
Torso Appendix
Nihilists LLC
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 23:21:00 -
[336] - Quote
Would it be possible to add the rhml to stealth bombers? Or even to adjust bonuses to get the front ended effect on the torps they currently use? |
Ghanar Drraba
Vortex Technologies
3
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 23:22:00 -
[337] - Quote
Since the day i started playing this game i liked missiles - or more precisely the idea behind this weapon system as a whole. Then i learned about all the advantages and disadvantages they have and my initial enthusiasm faded a bit. Then came the great HM over-nerf and my interest faded even more(while i agreed with the range nerf, the dps nerf made them laughably bad, especially considering the later buff of the other long range medium weapons). In the end i accepted that life and Eve is not fair and was looking forward to train tech 2 RLML - great versatility, acceptable - not decent - dps, better range than HAM and better damage application than HM. I was even looking forward to the new RHML - same principle in a bigger class package.
I agree that the pseudo-alpha provided by the burst part of the launcher shoot/reload cycle is interesting and certainly useful in niche situation and that you can partially mitigate the long reload by cleverly grouping launchers. BUT: - compare it to an ASB - during ASB reload you don't have a dead waiting time cause you have to keep focused on shooting the enemy, keeping range/transversal, and the long reload makes it interesting - will you survive the reload? The ASB takes nothing from the fun of the fight and ads the trill/challenge of survival to the next batch of charges; the long RLML/RHML recharge time just forces you to watch the enemy you could not kill with the initial burst keep shooting you and explode your ship just as you see the reload finishing; - the purpose for which people currently fit rapid launchers is versatility in small/solo context - with rapid launchers you don't loose much dps against same size ships and can reasonably engage smaller ship gangs - the engagement envelope is much bigger => more fights/more explosions/more fun; with the proposed changes you will pwn 1 maybe 2 ships of smaller size and than get killed by rest of their gang during reload(small ships buddy, were you really expecting to disengage and warp out for the reload?) or you will get that lone cruiser you are fighting in low armor at best and by the time you reload he will be back to full armor and regenerating shields while you will be already in low shield when you finish the initial burst and probably mid structure at the reload end - the proposed changes will work well with bigger kiting/skirmishing gangs, i agree, just sit back, reload and let the rapier/ arazu pilots earn their keep while you pull range; even in bigger fleets, this will be great for some sort of missile alpha fleet comps - but what if you fly with your closest friends which happen to be less than 10/50(for each type of launcher)
Biggest problem of the proposed changes stand in the huge reload that takes a lot and gives back very little. Rise said that 2+0=1+1, problem is that fights are rather 1+1+1 which gets problematic if you die at 2+0 before being able to do 2+0+2. EFT stats sure look sweet but real players have to do the pvp on the server with ships and not on the forums with EFT screenshots.
All being said, i still like the idea behind the weapon system, but as time passes, even if i really want to like the actual weapon system, i am forced more and more to turrets to get what i need - not that is something wrong to using turrets. But missiles seem such a cool idea - and then you see them in practice - and then you learn and start using all the tricks in the book to make them useful - and then CCP comes too and says nooo - you can't have it. CCP, don't nerf rapid launchers cause they are in some situations better than the overnerfed HM. Your are amplifying an initial mistake by going top down with changes based on it. What hurts most in this proposal is to see how CCP understands versatility = having 100 weapons systems for 100 different niche situations covers all the bases yes but that is not versatility people - versatility is having a lower number of weapon systems that have decent effectiveness in some situations and acceptable effectiveness in all the others - if change goes trough in this form for the medium class and large class missiles we will have the situation with 3 different launchers for 3 different contexts, compared to what we have now - 2 launchers for specialized situations and 1 versatile one - the rapid launcher.
And for all the would be trolls and l33t forum warriors - this is just my honest, informed opinion. I know how to use missiles and how to overcome their downsides - but it is and it gets easier each expansion to do same things with turrets with much less effort. I would sure like for missiles to be viable choices as versatile weapons, not just niche tools as CCP seem to try to make them every 6 months. |
Drahomi'r Bozi'dar
0ne Percent.
2
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 23:30:00 -
[338] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:1. turn off auto-reload.
2. deploy mobile base hut/yurt
3. right click base, select open fitting services
4. reload via fitting screen
5. continue shooting.
Haven't had a chance to try it on the test server yet, but...
does this work?
I live out of a POS in a WH, and when you load ammo/charges in the fitting window inside the POS you still have to sit through a normal reload timer. |
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
383
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 23:43:00 -
[339] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Let me know what you think and keep in mind that numbers may be adjusted slightly as we continue to test. Thanks
Sounds good to me, but given that EVE is a skill-based game, or at least used to be one, why don't you add a Missile Reloading skill that shaves something 4% off all missile realoding times per level? And a comparable Reloading skill that applies to all g++n ammo? |
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
383
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 23:44:00 -
[340] - Quote
GallowsCalibrator wrote:Lots of people not getting the potential of front-loaded dps against smaller targets in this thread I think.
Yeah. to me, zooming around in a Caracal or variant, and being able to murder frigate-sized targets, sounds quite attractive. |
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Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
951
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 23:52:00 -
[341] - Quote
Silvetica Dian wrote:
My perspective for what it is worth is that this will be a huge buff for those people that like to prey on scouts and tackle at the edges of fights. Getting a quick kill then disengaging away before the victims friends arrive and a moderate nerf to f1 monkeys who still decide to fit these missiles.
Pretty much, but that doesn't necessarily make it a good idea. To me, it seems that at any one time it will be intensely aggravating to someone - either the poor frigate pilot raging about getting nuked by a 520 DPS RLML Cerb, or the poor Cerb pilot twiddling his thumbs reloading for forty seconds, having to hold up his gang on gates or stuck dealing kinetic against Enyos and Ishkurs.
Any change that makes a weapon system simultaneously hated by both sides in an engagement probably isn't the right one.
That isn't to say that there isn't potential in the idea. I quite like the principle of it, but 40 s reload is far too long. Even 30 s would be pushing it. |
Elisk Skyforge
Touring New Eden Haven.
6
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 23:54:00 -
[342] - Quote
Will Caldari navy battleships get the RHML role bonus too ? |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
248
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 00:00:00 -
[343] - Quote
Congratulations, you just absolutely killed RLMLs (and probably RHMLs) for PvE.
I had been using RLML Cerbs in WH C1 sites because there are lots of frigs but you need a stiffer tank than frigs or destroyers can field. Sitting there with my thumb up my butt for 40 seconds waiting for a reload is not an option. What's the dps look like if you factor in reload time? Something similar to beating your opponent with a wet noodle?
RLMLs were so extensively used because you nerfed HMLs to the point of uselessness. So now you nerf RLMLs, and the only viable cruiser missile system left is HAMs.
Seriously, if you guys hate missile users so much, just remove the damn things. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
762
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 00:00:00 -
[344] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:
Any change that makes a weapon system simultaneously hated by both sides in an engagement probably isn't the right one.
|
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
969
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 00:05:00 -
[345] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Gypsio III wrote: Any change that makes a weapon system simultaneously hated by both sides in an engagement probably isn't the right one.
Not empty quoting. |
Ghanar Drraba
Vortex Technologies
3
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 00:06:00 -
[346] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:
Any change that makes a weapon system simultaneously hated by both sides in an engagement probably isn't the right one.
Words of wisdom. |
Kane Fenris
NWP
114
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 00:10:00 -
[347] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:1. turn off auto-reload.
2. deploy mobile base hut/yurt
3. right click base, select open fitting services
4. reload via fitting screen
5. continue shooting.
Haven't had a chance to try it on the test server yet, but...
this should not work it would just be awful gameplay the launchers should work propperly not through loopholes
btw there an intresting pattern people arent happy with proposed changes ccp comes up with an awful 2nd try all people hate it and then they go back to the first version.... worked with marauders |
Scooter6976
Order of Celestial Knights S I L E N T.
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 00:11:00 -
[348] - Quote
Why does ccp insist on adding one fail gimp on top of another. If rlml's are really op, or broken in anyway, then reduce the range with which they project their already **** dps. Let hams be the big dmg variant, hml's the sniper variant, and leave rlml's to killing frig sized targets, since that is their primary purpose for caldari pilots.
If rlml's are suddenly the 'only thing that makes sense to fit', then mayb the heavy hand that was taken to hml's was a bit too heavy....duh. no other weapon system that is effective on frigs, and coincidentally other sized targets is getting this same mal-treatment (220 ac's come to mind) so what makes rlml's so special. as I said, if its range, then adjust the range bonus on the ships that can use rlml's, or adjust the base light missile flight time/velocity.
the caracal/cerb rlml fits have an inherent drawback...relatively low dps. for solo work, this isn't necessarily an issue as your primary 1v1 targets are not going to be big hulls that can easily tank you. small targets are what these ships eat for lunch, and it just so happens they are fairly effective against larger targets, BUT NOT to the degree that other medium platforms can be.
If ccp has such a hard on for a new weapons system (RHML), then fine, add em in, do whatever madness you choose to believe will make the new mods something ppl will want to use, but ffs, leave a good thing alone for once! Caldari pilots deserve a reliable means of dispatching frigs size targets from a medium size hull. Being as how their ship line up is trumped in almost every arena, by another ship from a different faction, it seems fitting that caldari can be king of the hill on frig dispatchment. why take an otherwise versatile ship that can be good at both pve AND pvp, and make it into a ship that is only good for pvp, and only in scenarios where you are either 1v1 against a smaller hull, or you outnumber your target??
this is NOT any sort of gift to small gang/solo unless by small gang you mean 15+. then you can project as a group taking out a couple >cruiser size ships max before everyone has to warp off to reload. just stupid, when those same 15 could be in anything else and b more effective.
has anyone tried to figure how much ammo and thus TIME will be wasted if noobs try to use caracals on low lvl mish? you kno, when you let off a volley or two more than you needed to kill that ship your shooting.....every wasted volley gets you that much closer to the point where they have to warp off to station to reload. how ridiculous is that??
and wth is going to use rhml's for anything other than pve? which these proposed stats on rapid launchers, I can see them becoming mainstream vs the other variants. just my opinion. |
Scooter6976
Order of Celestial Knights S I L E N T.
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 00:29:00 -
[349] - Quote
and wth is going to use rhml's for anything other than pve? which these proposed stats on rapid launchers, I can't see them becoming mainstream vs the other variants. just my opinion. [/quote]
^^I meant CANT in that last sentence. |
ROXGenghis
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
142
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 00:30:00 -
[350] - Quote
This change sounds pretty sketchy to me.
There is a fundamental imbalance with all missile systems, and you (Rise/CCP) are making an awkward tweak to one of them in an attempt to fit it into the already broken spectrum.
The correct approach would be to tweak all missile systems once again (I know, sigh). But that's the point of these major rebalance efforts over the past couple of years.
The problem was that previously, CCP would try to do "point rebalances" where they tweak a single thing, like a ship, but since all ships were so out of whack that approach didn't work well. So CCP decided to just rebalance the entire spectrum of ships.
So why abandon that principle now and do a point rebalance of RLML/RHMLs when CCP should balance the entire weapons class? "Because we already rebalanced missiles" is not an acceptable answer, since obviously that was an unsuccessful rebalance. |
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X'ret
Shirak SkunkWorks
13
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 00:45:00 -
[351] - Quote
i do small gang/solo pvp mostly, fw area, hardcore space. After the hac rebalance my fav ship is Cerb with rapid lights.
We can talk about all day long about dps and rof, 40sec reload time on any weapon is not much but a very bad joke.
I like what you are doing in EVE Rise, all the ship balances are great, thats why i still playin this game after 8years. A good timed reload when you think faster than the whole blob which appears on ds within 3m km could be the difference between live or death, mostly 10sec feels like perpetuity too.
40sec??? Are you kidding right? First day of april still far away!
Take a deep breath and start to think it trough again, worst idea i've heard for years, and i heard many!
Dont kill my gamestyle, dont kill smallgang pvp, dont kill RLML's, dont kill RLML caracal/cerb!
Also.., just noticed RLML PG needs increased HUGE!
Requesting Shiva for 8 arms facepalm
I cant say more but PLEASE.. |
Jasmine Assasin
State War Academy Caldari State
107
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 01:08:00 -
[352] - Quote
How about balancing the other missiles instead of screwing with the rapid line?
Nobody is going to find 40 second reloads to be "fun" either. |
S1euth
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
23
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 01:11:00 -
[353] - Quote
40 second reload time is fine. It's less time than it takes to warp off grid and back and this mechanic will work well for shield ships that have passive tank regeneration. If we're negotiating, you could even up this to 50-60 seconds in exchange for more DPS. ;)
Only 50 seconds of pew pew time is too short; up that to 80-90 seconds by increasing clip size and it'll be more reasonable total damage output. 1min30sec is barely any time on grid and would be more reasonably balanced. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
670
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 01:14:00 -
[354] - Quote
Salpad wrote:GallowsCalibrator wrote:Lots of people not getting the potential of front-loaded dps against smaller targets in this thread I think. Yeah. to me, zooming around in a Caracal or variant, and being able to murder frigate-sized targets, sounds quite attractive.
carcals already do that.. BUt after the changes they wil NOT. BEcause they will zoom kill 2 frigates and have to run because their missiles ended.
The TQ caracal can stay and kill way MORE frigates in a Way more efficient way |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
670
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 01:16:00 -
[355] - Quote
JEFFRAIDER wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Colman Dietmar wrote:From what I've seen, rapid caracal is already pretty much impossible to deal with using T1 frigs AND can be a threat to cruiser-sized kiting ships. Why buff it more? If anything, I would like to see a nerf to rapid launchers, not a buff to their gankiness.
And yes, I did not miss the reload time, it's just that in 50 seconds you can kill some cruisers with that 400dps, not to speak of smaller targets. If the launcher did not have enough active time to kill a cruiser, then it would be better, although it would still make caracal pretty much immune to frigs. Let me be celar again for the 7th time. NO You cannot kill a cruiser. Even if the DPS was DOUBLE that! You cannot dish enough dps to kill a SHIELD tanked rupture before you run out of ammo on a CERBERUS. ON a caracal you will not even reach its armour. That sounds right to me. 400dps is not enough to kill a 25k ehp cruiser in 40 seconds
That basically measn the ship is DEAD for solo PVP. I mean the cerberus. THe caracal cannot do even 15K EHP damage.
A wellt anked cruiser acn tank on 3 caracals and laugh while they need to reload. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
670
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 01:20:00 -
[356] - Quote
Silvetica Dian wrote:Does anyone else feel that 95% of the people that post in these threads have no f-ing idea what they are talking about?
There is a cancel button just to the left of the post button and if you aren't pushing cancel more often that pushing post you are likely wasting everyones life.
My perspective for what it is worth is that this will be a huge buff for those people that like to prey on scouts and tackle at the edges of fights. Getting a quick kill then disengaging away before the victims friends arrive and a moderate nerf to f1 monkeys who still decide to fit these missiles.
Will be interesting to see how it pans out. CCP thankyou for actually trying new things instead of taking the safe easy road.
No.. You are the one that clearly have no clue if you cannto understand that most peopel complaiing are complainign on the SOLO PVP or near solo PVP experience that is being MURDERED!!!
The change massively nerfs the logn term dps of the ship, by 33% So the 2+ 0 = 1 + 1 is a LIE!!!!!! |
Kane Fenris
NWP
114
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 01:24:00 -
[357] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote: No.. You are the one that clearly have no clue if you cannto understand that most peopel complaiing are complainign on the SOLO PVP or near solo PVP experience that is being MURDERED!!!
the actually really sad thing is so much of cruiser sized solo pvp depends on this weapon.... |
Aliaksandre
Calamitous-Intent
62
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 01:28:00 -
[358] - Quote
Come on, I just bought a ton of RLML cruisers.
Refund? |
Justin Cody
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
51
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 01:31:00 -
[359] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Octavian Madullier wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:Fires for 50s, reloads for 40.
I surely can't be the first person to think two weapon groups allowing for either constant, sustained damage yet with the option of massive spike application. LOL ... no you are not ... its the obvious way to use them ...and u have different missile types in each group thus avoided having only kinetic loaded when facing Caldari ... While there are a few situations that this is a good plan, this is also similar to "ungrouping" your artillery weapons. More often than not, you want to put as much damage on your target as quickly as possible. That's exactly what makes this an effective buff, at least for PvP.
So I take it you're the satan worshipper behind these shennanigans. Can you please stop attempting to fix something that isn't broken? Just go fix drone assignment or something geeze. If there was something *wrong* with RLML's I'd say so...but honestly they **** face as it is. For RHML's I can see them being an excellent weapon but all it really indicates is that torpedoes need a tweak to explosion velocity or radius so that they aren't so terribad at killing anything less than a structure or siege/triaged capital.
If you're for this you should also be for a 10 minute reload on all artillery. Way to make me want to "untrain" all of my caldari skills. Like I said this is like viagra that makes you **** faster and heavier but you have to wait another day to do it again because of brand new prostate mechanics! This makes things LESS fun. |
Theon Severasse
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
37
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 01:32:00 -
[360] - Quote
Terrible idea, the reasons have already been said.
Come on Rise, WTF are you thinking? |
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