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Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
4103
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Posted - 2014.01.02 18:29:00 -
[61] - Quote
Pontianak Sythaeryn wrote:Malcanis wrote:No it's spectacularly sensible, and full credit for CCP on not compromising on this core principle.
What would be spectacularly dumb would be "fixing" this feature and treating mission runners as some kind of special chosen-kind who may not be touched or interfered with, unlike every other profession in EVE. So... if the pirate can pretty much screw over the mission runner without any risk, why is the reward in ransoming and tears so great? I only see risk for the mission runner. Doesn't the scenarios laid above conflict with the greater risk, greater reward thing CCP likes? I mean, from my point of view the pirate gets to have a grand ol time with pretty much very little risk, and the mission runner gets kinda hosed for a LOT of risk. With that said, I've not done any of the cosmos missions, so maybe there is something I'm just missing.
What you are missing is the fact that the 'pirate' is taking a risk, he's betting against the mission runner having friends cloaked in the mission waiting for him to go suspect if he does the wrong thing.
Its not the pirates fault that most COSMOS (and regular) mission runners are asocial 'solo players' who can't even make (or hire) video game friends long enough to secure a BILLION ISK item.
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Logical 101
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
120
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Posted - 2014.01.02 18:33:00 -
[62] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:EVE is a game of skullduggery. If you want to be safe and left alone, dock up You would think after 10 years of this reality that people would have woken up to it and would stop whining like little bitches every time their carebearing gets **** on by someone.
It is impossible to drive home the point to some people that the environment here is meant to be brutal, competitive and, at times, downright unfair. They just can't process it. They want their game, not EVE.
And frankly, I am disappointed that people indulge them these days. "Sociopaths". Yes, we're all a bunch of sociopaths, but at least we know what we're doing. So we're competent sociopaths.
And that's good enough for me. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
4103
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Posted - 2014.01.02 18:34:00 -
[63] - Quote
Carnaby Wakefield wrote:Pontianak Sythaeryn wrote:Malcanis wrote:No it's spectacularly sensible, and full credit for CCP on not compromising on this core principle.
What would be spectacularly dumb would be "fixing" this feature and treating mission runners as some kind of special chosen-kind who may not be touched or interfered with, unlike every other profession in EVE. So... if the pirate can pretty much screw over the mission runner without any risk, why is the reward in ransoming and tears so great? I only see risk for the mission runner. Doesn't the scenarios laid above conflict with the greater risk, greater reward thing CCP likes? I mean, from my point of view the pirate gets to have a grand ol time with pretty much very little risk, and the mission runner gets kinda hosed for a LOT of risk. With that said, I've not done any of the cosmos missions, so maybe there is something I'm just missing. No your pretty much right, the mission in question spawns in a static system and is 5 deadspace rooms, considered to be the hardest of all Cosmos missions npc wise. All the pirate needs to do is shadow the mission runner until he hits the last room and everything aggro's onto the mission runner and then the pirate just jumps in and either kills the named npc or loots the npc's wreck while the mission runner is been attacked by a host of npc's. The mission in question semi-completes when the spawn is killed so you can't even respawn the mission again and your locked out of the chain and the mission runner takes a substantial negative standings hit. While robbing misson drops and salvaging mission wrecks is all fine and dandy stealing specific mission loot to prevent people completing the mission smacks of griefing.
What whacky definition of griefing do you use. Stealing in EVE is not greifing any more than contesting an incursion site (ie 'stealing' the site from another fleet) is If you can't defend your loot, it's not your loot, even in high sec.
The real problem here is high sec itself. It provides players not only with a false sense of security, but it also bolsters they're belief that they are something entitled to perfect protection in a game where there is no perfect protection other than staying docked.
I say bravo to this princess person for bringing to light the reality of EVE online, one whiny Nerf Burger at a time.
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Carmen Electra
The Scope Gallente Federation
181
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Posted - 2014.01.02 18:36:00 -
[64] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:I say bravo to this princess person for bringing to light the reality of EVE online, one whiny Nerf Burger at a time.
I think you're just jelly of carebears.
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Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
4103
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Posted - 2014.01.02 18:38:00 -
[65] - Quote
Logical 101 wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:EVE is a game of skullduggery. If you want to be safe and left alone, dock up You would think after 10 years of this reality that people would have woken up to it and would stop whining like little bitches every time their carebearing gets **** on by someone. It is impossible to drive home the point to some people that the environment here is meant to be brutal, competitive and, at times, downright unfair. They just can't process it. They want their game, not EVE. And frankly, I am disappointed that people indulge them these days. "Sociopaths". Yes, we're all a bunch of sociopaths, but at least we know what we're doing. So we're competent sociopaths. And that's good enough for me.
"Sociopath" is the new troll or griefer ie it's the word that gets slung at you for simply being better at things than some people. The "pirates" the op is complaining about is no more sociopathic than the gang member slappin Hoes in Grand Theft Auto (or as i like to call it, EVE with cars). It's just that the Hoes in EVE are called 'mission runners' and have access to the forums.
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Tesco Ergo Sum
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
22
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Posted - 2014.01.02 18:43:00 -
[66] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Victoria Sin wrote:Malcanis wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:"Please note that the possibility of losing mission items through theft, damage, sale, or other means is considered an inherent risk in accepting work from agents"-GM
I realise that this is new and shocking to you, but this has been common knowledge since forever. Still, congratulations on expanding your understanding of the game. So? That doesn't mean it isn't spectacularly dumb in terms of game design, like quite a few things in Eve. THIS is what the OP is suggesting. No it's spectacularly sensible, and full credit for CCP on not compromising on this core principle. What would be spectacularly dumb would be "fixing" this feature and treating mission runners as some kind of special chosen-kind who may not be touched or interfered with, unlike every other profession in EVE.
Station trading isn't a profession then?
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Carmen Electra
The Scope Gallente Federation
181
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Posted - 2014.01.02 18:49:00 -
[67] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:"Sociopath" is the new troll or griefer ie it's the word that gets slung at you for simply being better at things than some people.
Um, no. Lots of "l33t PvPurs" are some of the most risk-averse people I've ever encountered. EVE inevitably encourages players to be sociopaths and griefers, but there's still a wide spectrum of this behavior.
When I'm roaming with my gang, it's not like we pass on easy kills. (Except miners and haulers. Anslo, Y U DO DIS? ). But we also are happy to engage even when the odds are against us. Many players in this game will not "play" the game unless the deck is mercilessly stacked in their favor.
What's being described in this thread I think easily qualifies as being "griefing" even if it is "legitimate". Just like the anti-ganker who sits on the Urlen gate in his Onyx exploiting the unholy hell out of the game mechanics.
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Logical 101
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
121
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Posted - 2014.01.02 19:00:00 -
[68] - Quote
Carmen Electra wrote:Many players in this game will not "play" the game unless the deck is mercilessly stacked in their favor. There is a difference between bravery and idiocy. Engaging a gang that can clearly wipe you out because it has a format that you can't counter, either mathematically or tactically, is a dumb idea. Engaging a larger but structurally weaker force is a show of good decision making on your part. This is nothing to do, however, with the topic at hand.
Carmen Electra wrote:What's being described in this thread I think easily qualifies as being "griefing" even if it is "legitimate". If by "legitimate" you mean "not against the rules", then there is no debate to be had. If you are unable to learn and compensate for grief tactics, then the failing is ultimately yours, as it has always been. |
Pontianak Sythaeryn
Bottle Distribution Ops Center Heimatar Alliance Treaty Organization
115
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Posted - 2014.01.02 19:04:00 -
[69] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:What you are missing is the fact that the 'pirate' is taking a risk, he's betting against the mission runner having friends cloaked in the mission waiting for him to go suspect if he does the wrong thing.
Its not the pirates fault that most COSMOS (and regular) mission runners are asocial 'solo players' who can't even make (or hire) video game friends long enough to secure a BILLION ISK item.
So... by your own words, the pirate is taking a risk... a small one, because most mission runners don't run with a compliment of friends.
While it's not the pirates fault, it's something the pirate knows is true and thus once again... small risk vs great reward.
With all of this said, knowing the pirate will be counting on my doing this solo, when I decide to do this mission, I'll be sure and bring some friends cloaked and pop the weasel. Pirate tears are best tears.
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Carmen Electra
The Scope Gallente Federation
181
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Posted - 2014.01.02 19:04:00 -
[70] - Quote
Logical 101 wrote:There is a difference between bravery and idiocy. Engaging a gang that can clearly wipe you out because it has a format that you can't counter, either mathematically or tactically, is a dumb idea. Engaging a larger but structurally weaker force is a show of good decision making on your part. This is nothing to do, however, with the topic at hand.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sportsmanship
Logical 101 wrote:If by "legitimate" you mean "not against the rules", then there is no debate to be had. If you are unable to learn and compensate for grief tactics, then the failing is ultimately yours, as it has always been.
Why does everything have to be about "fail" and it's opposite? It's a game for crying out loud. |
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Logical 101
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
122
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Posted - 2014.01.02 19:08:00 -
[71] - Quote
Carmen Electra wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sportsmanship http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense
Carmen Electra wrote:Why does everything have to be about "fail" and it's opposite? It's a game for crying out loud. And a damn good one, because it does not pander to the lowest common gaming denominator.
Again, if you fail to recognize the nature of your environment, you are doomed to lament your lack of success therein.
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Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
4105
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Posted - 2014.01.02 19:10:00 -
[72] - Quote
Pontianak Sythaeryn wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:What you are missing is the fact that the 'pirate' is taking a risk, he's betting against the mission runner having friends cloaked in the mission waiting for him to go suspect if he does the wrong thing.
Its not the pirates fault that most COSMOS (and regular) mission runners are asocial 'solo players' who can't even make (or hire) video game friends long enough to secure a BILLION ISK item.
So... by your own words, the pirate is taking a risk... a small one, because most mission runners don't run with a compliment of friends. While it's not the pirates fault, it's something the pirate knows is true and thus once again... small risk vs great reward. With all of this said, knowing the pirate will be counting on my doing this solo, when I decide to do this mission, I'll be sure and bring some friends cloaked and pop the weasel. Pirate tears are best tears.
Exactly how much risk is the mission runner doing a billion isk mission in high sec taking vs the reward?
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6041
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Posted - 2014.01.02 19:11:00 -
[73] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Pontianak Sythaeryn wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:What you are missing is the fact that the 'pirate' is taking a risk, he's betting against the mission runner having friends cloaked in the mission waiting for him to go suspect if he does the wrong thing.
Its not the pirates fault that most COSMOS (and regular) mission runners are asocial 'solo players' who can't even make (or hire) video game friends long enough to secure a BILLION ISK item. So... by your own words, the pirate is taking a risk... a small one, because most mission runners don't run with a compliment of friends. While it's not the pirates fault, it's something the pirate knows is true and thus once again... small risk vs great reward. With all of this said, knowing the pirate will be counting on my doing this solo, when I decide to do this mission, I'll be sure and bring some friends cloaked and pop the weasel. Pirate tears are best tears. Exactly how much risk is the mission runner doing a billion isk mission in high sec taking vs the reward? MAXIMUM RISK from gankers ^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers. |
Pipa Porto
1474
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Posted - 2014.01.02 19:11:00 -
[74] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:No, it wouldn't because pirates could still steal mission loot.
Next fail argument.
Try again. Why should pirates be allowed to steal/blow up your required mission items in high sec with zero risk and zero cost to themselves if they should fail? What does that bring to the game?
Every other profession in the game can have its progression entirely disrupted by other players. Why should mission running be special?
Failure is a cost, so... there you go. It's not risk or cost free. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
149
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Posted - 2014.01.02 19:13:00 -
[75] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
What you are missing is the fact that the 'pirate' is taking a risk,
Jenn aSide wrote: "Sociopath" is the new troll or griefer ie it's the word that gets slung at you for simply being better at things than some people.
The things you tell yourself seriously makes me laugh.
"I think weGÇÖre just getting closer and closer to a place where the people we lose are people that itGÇÖs okay to lose." -Kristoffer Touborg, Eve lead designer
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Logical 101
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
124
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Posted - 2014.01.02 19:19:00 -
[76] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:The things you tell yourself seriously makes me laugh. Your thread has produced more than a few chuckles thus far.
PS - Your head is too small for those sunglasses. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
4107
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 19:19:00 -
[77] - Quote
Carmen Electra wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:"Sociopath" is the new troll or griefer ie it's the word that gets slung at you for simply being better at things than some people. Um, no. Lots of "l33t PvPurs" are some of the most risk-averse people I've ever encountered. EVE inevitably encourages players to be sociopaths and griefers, but there's still a wide spectrum of this behavior. When I'm roaming with my gang, it's not like we pass on easy kills. (Except miners and haulers. Anslo, Y U DO DIS? ). But we also are happy to engage even when the odds are against us. Many players in this game will not "play" the game unless the deck is mercilessly stacked in their favor. What's being described in this thread I think easily qualifies as being "griefing" even if it is "legitimate". Just like the anti-ganker who sits on the Urlen gate in his Onyx exploiting the unholy hell out of the game mechanics.
Nonsense, greifing is simply harrassing another player. By definition, you can't be griefed by having an item stolen from one mission. By your definition the guy who warped into my mission in Osmon last night tryign to bait me into getting killed was griefing me. He wasn't, he was just playing the game like I was.
The difference between me and the OP is that I understand the game. When I did the Caldari Cosmos missions a few years ago I saw combat probs on scan while doing the last mission to get the Michi implant. I just hurried up and finished, got out as the bad guys were warping in. I wasn't so lucky while doing Minmatar cosmos a couple times.
It never once occurred to me to run to mommy (ccp) with a petition or forum post, the win/lose nature of EVE was understood before I downloaded it.
The problem is the game mechanics, it's unreasonable and unrealistic expectations from some who play in high sec.
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Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
149
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Posted - 2014.01.02 19:23:00 -
[78] - Quote
Logical 101 wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:The things you tell yourself seriously makes me laugh. Your thread has produced more than a few chuckles thus far. PS - Your head is too small for those sunglasses.
Try not to be so obviously mad and maybe someone will take you seriously if in the unlikely event you ever come up with a decent argument. "I think weGÇÖre just getting closer and closer to a place where the people we lose are people that itGÇÖs okay to lose." -Kristoffer Touborg, Eve lead designer
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Logical 101
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
124
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Posted - 2014.01.02 19:25:00 -
[79] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:Try not to be so obviously mad and maybe someone will take you seriously if you ever come up with a decent argument. An excellent retort.
And I like how you greased over the multitude of decent arguments presented.
Revisionism is a wonderful thing, isn't it?
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Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
149
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Posted - 2014.01.02 19:26:00 -
[80] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:No, it wouldn't because pirates could still steal mission loot.
Next fail argument.
Try again. Why should pirates be allowed to steal/blow up your required mission items in high sec with zero risk and zero cost to themselves if they should fail? What does that bring to the game? Every other profession in the game can have its progression entirely disrupted by other players. Why should mission running be special? Failure is a cost, so... there you go. It's not risk or cost free.
Try harder with your hair slicing Pipa. You are pathetic. "I think weGÇÖre just getting closer and closer to a place where the people we lose are people that itGÇÖs okay to lose." -Kristoffer Touborg, Eve lead designer
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Logical 101
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
124
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Posted - 2014.01.02 19:28:00 -
[81] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:Try harder with your hair slicing Pipa. You are pathetic. Try not to be so obviously mad. |
Carmen Electra
The Scope Gallente Federation
183
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Posted - 2014.01.02 19:36:00 -
[82] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:By your definition the guy who warped into my mission in Osmon last night tryign to bait me into getting killed was griefing me. He wasn't, he was just playing the game like I was.
Jenn, I'm not really disagreeing with anything you're saying per se. I'm just trying to draw attention to the hypocrisy and double standard promoted by many our more "hardcore" players. These people lecture carebears on risk, implying that they're brave risk takers themselves. In reality, many of these same players have learned to be "successful" by consistently putting nearly NOTHING on the line. What does this guy have to lose? His covops? Please.
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Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1825
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Posted - 2014.01.02 19:38:00 -
[83] - Quote
Jesus, let it go already... "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
16402
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Posted - 2014.01.02 19:41:00 -
[84] - Quote
Playing Eve by the rules makes you a sociopath, just as playing chess makes you a murderer. It all makes perfect sense.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Carmen Electra
The Scope Gallente Federation
183
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Posted - 2014.01.02 19:43:00 -
[85] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Playing Eve by the rules makes you a sociopath, just as playing chess makes you a murderer. It all makes perfect sense.
CCP employees are barred from engaging in a wide range of gameplay styles. Explain
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Mag's
the united SCUM.
16402
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Posted - 2014.01.02 19:44:00 -
[86] - Quote
Carmen Electra wrote:Mag's wrote:Playing Eve by the rules makes you a sociopath, just as playing chess makes you a murderer. It all makes perfect sense. CCP employees are barred from engaging in a wide range of gameplay styles. Explain You must be new here. Welcome to Eve.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Carmen Electra
The Scope Gallente Federation
183
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Posted - 2014.01.02 19:46:00 -
[87] - Quote
Mag's wrote:You must be new here. Welcome to Eve.
Been playing since 2003. You?
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Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
150
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Posted - 2014.01.02 19:47:00 -
[88] - Quote
Also you kids in addition to having no decent arguments, are still failing to comprehend the fact that people are going to have to be aware of all the nuances of this specific COSMOS mission in order to defend against people who are in the system 24/7. They would have to know the rewards and know that they wouldn't be able to reset the mission and try again, like you can in most mission. That you get one chance at the item and that you can't reset it on downtime. Most people aren't going to be aware of these nuances and that is one more reason why it needs to go or at least come with a warning that players will try to steal it or destroy it. First of all, why should the game reward sociopaths who prey on others lack of knowledge with zero risk to themselves?
How do you think a newer player, who played the game casually and was building their standings slowly, doing cosmos missions casually without researching every little thing about each one them first, would feel if they got ****** over like that because of some mundane mechanic that is of no benefit to the game whatsoever? A zero risk, low investment venture out of someone who is likely to be a sociopath effectively robs the culmination of reward of what was likely countless hours spent raising standings.
A sociopath is naturally going to defend their environment they have been drawn to, but the rest of you defending this imbalanced mechanic are only hurting your own game. "I think weGÇÖre just getting closer and closer to a place where the people we lose are people that itGÇÖs okay to lose." -Kristoffer Touborg, Eve lead designer
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Mag's
the united SCUM.
16403
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Posted - 2014.01.02 19:48:00 -
[89] - Quote
Carmen Electra wrote:Mag's wrote:You must be new here. Welcome to Eve. Been playing since 2003. You? Oh dear.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Logical 101
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
124
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Posted - 2014.01.02 19:49:00 -
[90] - Quote
Carmen Electra wrote:I'm just trying to draw attention to the hypocrisy and double standard promoted by many our more "hardcore" players. These people lecture carebears on risk, implying that they're brave risk takers themselves. In reality, many of these same players have learned to be "successful" by consistently putting nearly NOTHING on the line. Conversely, constantly putting T2 ships and capitals on the line for the sake of good fights and good times has a tendency to harden you up in such a way that the gripes of carebears become an irksome and tiresome "fingernails on the chalkboard" annoyance that doesn't go down particularly well. The only double standard here is the expectation of safety in an environment geared specifically to be unsafe, regardless of what you do.
The inability to accept this and compensate for it speaks ultimately to a certain level of intellectual bankruptcy; an inability to accept that there are a million and one games out there where such gripes would be welcomed and accepted and even acted upon, whereas here they are seen as challenges to a long-established and well-loved status quo. |
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