Just because OP wrote that he is a pedant:

A Nanofiber Internal Structure is no propulsion module because it does not propel anything.

Posting in Features and Ideas is too hard right?

I would expect a new pubbie to make this mistake, but a well known face in goonswarm?!?

You are bad and you should feel bad.

You are bad and you should feel bad.

It should be pretty evident that this categorization is improper and the nanofiber should be considered a propulsion upgrade.

okay mister test alliance

TEST Alliance is still alive????

It's only partially a feature request. It's mostly to start a discussion on how we've categorized these things and why.

No. Nanofiber Internal Structure is listed under hull because it changes the hull of a ship. It is not listed under propulsion because it doesn't change the propulsion system of a ship. Overdrive Injector System and Inertia Stabilizers are modules which plug into the propulsion system of a ship, so they are listed under propulsion.

What you are proposing is to classify "carbon fiber body" as an "engine upgrade for a car", because "if you give a car a carbon fiber body, the engine (an unrelated component) will make the entire car go faster". Nanofibers aren't propulsion upgrades, they don't change the way ships propel themselves.

A capital ship is any ship that requires the "Capital Ships" skill, or in the case of industrial ships, the "Capital Industrial Ships" skill.

While most people would look at this subject and say "who gives a ****"

I propose that freighters and jump freighters be moved into the separate category of Freighters, which will encompass Standard Freighters and Advanced Freighters. The Orca would be moved into its own category of Industrial Command Ship. Technically supercapitals shouldn't be on the market at all, since they cannot be docked except by GM intervention.

And Pirate/faction bpc market. We need BPC market.....

Similarly, the categorization of the Orca and freighters don't share any attributes that are common to the the real capital ships. The only thing that can be said about them is that they're really big. Jump freighters are freighters with jump drives, which capital ships do have, but then so do the Black Ops. Clearly a jump drive does not automatically make a ship a capital ship.

The Orca and freighters and jumps freighters are all advanced spaceship command skill ships, which seems to be the only thing all capital ships have in common.

But it doesn't make sense to call freighters and jump freighters capital ships, because they share none of the unique characteristics that are common to carriers, dreadnoughts, titans, supers, and the Rorqual, except that one.

If its 'Capital Sized Vessel' attribute is '1', then it's a capital ship.
This attribute can be seen in EVEMon and most likely other similar programs.

Basically these ships are capitals:

titans
supers
carriers
dreads
freighters
jump freighters
rorqual

Orca is not a capital, even though it needs cap parts to build.

/thread

As for EVE .. it is a wee bit confused. For example (and correct me if I am wrong as I never built one) doesn't the Orca require capital construction parts to build ?

But it doesn't make sense to call freighters and jump freighters capital ships, because they share none of the unique characteristics that are common to carriers, dreadnoughts, titans, supers, and the Rorqual, except that one.

I that not like arguing that the whale isn't a mammal, because it lives in the ocean?

No, it's like arguing that a whale isn't a fish just because it lives in the ocean.

Advanced spaceship command = capital.
Spaceship command = sub capital.

This would only mean the Orca does not fit the rule.

No, it's like arguing that a whale isn't a fish just because it lives in the ocean.

Advanced spaceship command = capital.
Spaceship command = sub capital.

This would only mean the Orca does not fit the rule.

Why do you insist that freighters and JF are capital ships?
A definition of capital ship that includes those two classes makes a lot less sense and is significantly less useful to us than if we use the definitions I provided.

Okay jump freighters are sub caps, that are build from capital components

and require advanced spaceship command skill used by capital ships,

But not the capital ships skill.

People don't search market categories based upon lore, they search based upon the intended use of the module. If you want to make your ship faster and more agile, you'd probably think to look in propulsion upgrades first, which is where the nanofibers should be.

The Capital Industrial Ships skill is only for the Rorqual, and it requires the Capital Ships skill anyway (the ship also requires the Capital Ships skill at level 2 to fly it anyway). The Orca requires neither Capital Ships nor Capital Industrial Ships. It doesn't even require Advanced Spaceship Command.

That's what I said, isn't it? Capital ships are any and all and only the ships that require the "Capital Ships" skill.

Installing a nanofiber hull onto your ship isn't a hull upgrade?

Installing a nanofiber hull onto your ship isn't a hull upgrade?

How about any ship that uses the skill "Capital ships"?

How we define anything in eve will NEVER determine it use. Just because you place a definition on something doesnGÇÖt mean now all of a sudden because its defined that it will have to be used a certain way. Sandbox...remember?

I propose that freighters and jump freighters be moved into the separate category of Freighters, which will encompass Standard Freighters and Advanced Freighters. The Orca would be moved into its own category of Industrial Command Ship. Technically supercapitals shouldn't be on the market at all, since they cannot be docked except by GM intervention.

(And move nanofibers to propulsion modules, seriously.)

Posting in very well hidden slowcat thread

What existing definition? CCP contradicts themselves on the definition.
The time and resources involved would probably also be on the order of 10 minutes for a single dev, if even that.
It would be done for the same reason module, ammo, and implant name changes were done.

Why does it need defined? What will defining it change? Why not just come out and say what you REALLY are looking to accomplish?

No.
That means its the size of a cap. It doesnt qualify it as a cap

What existing definition?

... that freighters, jump freighters, and the Orca are all listed under the market category of capital ships. I however do not believe that such a categorization is correct.

It would be done for the same reason module, ammo, and implant name changes were done.

The definition in game of which you are perfectly aware:

I bolded the only relevant bit.


You aren't asking for an actual item to be renamed. Your asking for a market/ship category, essentially an abstraction, to be renamed. It would be like asking for strategic cruisers to be renamed pimp-mobiles because they often have bling modules fitted. Sure CCP could do it, but why the **** would they?

So, I'll ask again: Can you provide compelling reasons why devs should allocate time and resources towards changing the existing definition of capital ships?

So, I'll ask again: Can you provide compelling reasons why devs should allocate time and resources towards changing the existing definition of capital ships? [/b]

IIRC a while ago you had a similar thread. What is your motivation for requesting this anyway?

"capital ships are this"

"Capital ships are big."

As to the rest, meh, w/e floats your boat I guess. Just doesn't seem particularly worthwhile to me.

Because it leads to confusion. As it is right now you cannot make any such statement like "capital ships are this" or "capitals ships can do this" or "capital ships can't do this" because people think that freighters, JF, and the orca are included when you say "capital ship", but pretty much anyone who's worth their salt knows they're not actually capital ships, just really big ships that CCP improperly categorized. If we exclude them, we can now say things like "capital ships can't use stargates", "capital ships cannot be built in highsec", etc. Which is exactly what CCP is already saying when they say things like "highsec capital ships are not allowed to do any of these listed things" and it's pretty obvious they're not including JF, freighters, or Orcas in that definition.

I'm asking for internal consistency for the sake of clarity. It's really not that hard.

Then tell people capital ships are ships that require the capital ship construction skill to build.

No.

That means its the size of a cap. It doesnt qualify it as a cap

Supercapitals are of course a subclass of capitals

So you agree with me. I was under the impression you were trying to make a counter argument and failing.

Any ship that cannot use stargates

Any ship with a mass of greater than 1,000,000 tons
Any ship which, should it happen to be in highsec, is subjected to severely restrictive rules on its usage

Supercapitals:
Cannot dock in a station
Cannot use any wormholes
Are immune at all times to all forms of E-war
Must be constructed in a Capital Ship Assembly Array

Any ship that requires the capital ships skill

A capital ship is any ship that requires the "Capital Ships" skill, or in the case of industrial ships, the "Capital Industrial Ships" skill.

Supercapitals are of course a subclass of capitals which all have the following attributes

• Cannot dock in a station
• Cannot use any wormholes
• Are immune at all times to all forms of E-war
• Must be constructed in a Capital Ship Assembly Array