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Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
46
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Posted - 2014.02.04 12:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
Straightforward topic, why can not mining (ore and ice) be done in the same way as Planetary Interaction?
How I envision it could work: That we set up a mining operation on lets say some huge comets (ice) and asteroids (ore), and then just pick it up every 14 days. Perhaps we can refine on the comet and asteroid, and even manufacture parts, and then launch the parts into orbit and take them to stations to use them to construct ships and structures. This is how things would work in real life, from a physics standpoint (comets and asteroids have very little gravity and so its cheap to land and take off from it, and buildings almost require no strength at all due to low gravity and you can build huge parts with very weak machinery, and there's no air and far from the sun no hot/cold cycles. And you would not require to pay anyone to sit around staring at the rocks, and you would not even have to administrate it on-site, and you could have a dozen operations going at once, and because you launch finished parts into orbit you do do not have to pay to launch and transport the waste ore and would have great efficiency). Ships would have parts requirements instead of mineral requirements. So the average miner would launch the equivalent of planetary interaction tier 2 and tier 3 and tier 4 products into space and sell that on the market. |
Julius Rigel
153
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Posted - 2014.02.04 12:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
Perhaps you might want to do some research on previous similar feature ideas.
I would suggest skimming some of these threads as a start, but also doing your own thorough forum search:
Ideas for combining PI and mining:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=104543
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=299440
Ideas to change mining in general:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=231014
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=256832
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4188676 Do YOU like to undock? |
Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
46
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Posted - 2014.02.04 13:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
The topic is "Why can not mining (ore and ice) be done in the same way as PI?". |
Julius Rigel
154
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Posted - 2014.02.04 13:18:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ronny Hugo wrote:The topic is "Why can not mining (ore and ice) be done in the same way as PI?". And so are the topics I referenced. Did you even read them? Do YOU like to undock? |
Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
46
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 13:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
Julius Rigel wrote:Ronny Hugo wrote:The topic is "Why can not mining (ore and ice) be done in the same way as PI?". And so are the topics I referenced. Did you even read them? They're random ideas about other ways mining can work, like my second paragraph. But the topic at hand stated in the first paragraph is why does mining happen the way it happens? Why do someone have to do 6 minute mining runs (lasers on roids that deplete every third cycle) instead of 6 day mining runs (PI-like mining where you set it up and wait a couple days)? Do you think for a second about what the topic is before you post? |
Gawain Edmond
Angry Mustellid
54
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 13:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
shh all ideas are unique snowflakes and never been thought of or proposed before and any similarities to other ideas already posted only seem so because you do not fully understand the idea currently being discussed |
Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
46
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 13:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jeez, I'll delete that paragraph since it appears it makes people incapable of seeing that it is merely off-topic. |
Gawain Edmond
Angry Mustellid
54
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 13:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
because the minerals need to be aquired in the amounts that they're currently collected in if they were made a passive income then the bottom would fall out of the mineral market and it'd become worthless as everyone in eve would have their own mineral mines instead of just a small number of people mining |
Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
46
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 14:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
That's conjecture. 1. Not everyone do PI. 2. Not everyone use their free first research job slot (you can research 1 job from the start that can produce a passive income). 3. Not everyone uses all their available buy/sell orders to produce passive income. 4. Not everyone lend money to someone to produce passive income. 5. Not everyone use their manufacturing slot to produce something to make a passive income. 6. Not everyone have active contracts to make a passive income (and not everyone with active contracts use all their available contract capabilities). 7. Not everyone uses all the research spots, manfuacture spots, buy/sell orders, all available contracts, on all their toons. I have several buy/sell orders unused on all my toons, and its very labor-intensive to keep them all in use. So how in New Eden can you propose that everyone would do mining if it required input only every other day or every other week? And do everyone do mining 23/7 today? No. Because when everyone constantly does veldspar mining, or Omber mining, or Plagioclase mining, then the price drops, and more people do something else that pays more. So roughly, all activities pay the same to a certain degree because when one pays more then people pile into it, and when something pays less then people pile out of it. Also, how much you make from mining is not equivalent to the price per unit. But the price per unit multiplied by how many units you mine. So if you mine ten times more units, but the price is ten times less, then you still make the same amount of isk. But we could make ten times more titans (or lots and lots of dreads to kill titans and slowcats).
So I ask again, why do mining need to be so labor-intensive as it is now? |
Ariel Ordion
Kolechia Kolektiv
1
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Posted - 2014.02.04 14:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ronny Hugo wrote: Blahblahblahblahblah Blahblahblahblahblah Blahblahblahblahblah Blahblahblahblahblah Blahblahblahblahblah Blahblahblahblahblah Blahblahblahblahblah
why do mining need to be so labor-intensive as it is now?
Because EVE is a game about killing risk-averse retards with stupid ideas like you. |
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Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
119
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Posted - 2014.02.04 14:40:00 -
[11] - Quote
Because, if I only had to log in once a day with a fleet of low SP alts to get a huge quantity of resources it would crash the market.
The reason mining is so painful is so that it discourages swathes of people from doing it and thus devalue minerals (and then the componeents made from minerals).
Not to mention you would take an active profession that requires multiple toons logged in at the same time and turn it into two accounts that can log in for an hour a day and reap the benefits of 6 active miners.
Now comes the part where you start arguing that we could just change the rate at which minerals are harvested to 'not' collapse the market, and the part where ISBoxing mining fleets won't unsub (and thus CCP loses real money). The above posts were trying to point out that this is not an original idea and it won't be implemented because it destroys valid gameplay. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
164
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Posted - 2014.02.04 15:23:00 -
[12] - Quote
I would add to the above that to make PI truly profitable takes running at least to low-sec, introducing risk and conflict. With PI-lite mining ther would be minimal risk in hi-sec mining. Even trying to gank the hauler would be pointless as the mineral /ore value would go so low that it wouldn't be worth it. |
Anomaly One
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
210
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 15:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
We need a "Change mining collection thread" I'm pretty sure I saw at least 10 more.. Never forget. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8sfaN8zT8E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l_ZjVyRxx4 Trust me, I'm an Anomaly. DUST 514 FOR PC |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2377
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 15:37:00 -
[14] - Quote
I'm all for making mining like PI.
Just adjust the output to be like PI, too.
Combat loots become main source of minerals again.
Miner dies off as a profession.
EVE is saved. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1042
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 15:53:00 -
[15] - Quote
not this guy again.
what have i told u about automation??
u should just stay away from industry all together since u hate it so much. There are no vets in EVE. Only varying levels of Noobery. |
Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
46
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 16:09:00 -
[16] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:I would add to the above that to make PI truly profitable takes running at least to low-sec, introducing risk and conflict. With PI-lite mining ther would be minimal risk in hi-sec mining. Even trying to gank the hauler would be pointless as the mineral /ore value would go so low that it wouldn't be worth it.
So you would not gank a hauler with worthless minerals in it, but you think someone else would mine worthless minerals? I think our problem lay right there. We can't change mining because people make wild irrational assumptions about what people would do in a changed environment. "Oh, people would eat their young, go blind, listen to chalk on blackboard, use Phoenixes and fly around in circles until they die of starvation if we change mining!".
Domanique Altares, indeed, looting minerals from wrecks would be nice.
What if you just want to mine enough to make your own battleship but can't sit there mining for hours on end, then you put on Pi-ish mining and maintain it every weekend for 8 weeks. But if you want to plex your account from it, then you need to use 2-3 of your toons for PI-ish mining in low-sec and null-sec (which entails going to pick up the minerals). I should add that if we ever were to change mining for something PI-like, then it would not be planets we would mine, but dwarf planets (barely spherical asteroids that range in size from a few hundred kilometers to a few thousand kilometers). Barely have any gravity, so buildings there can be very cheap, as well as easy to launch things into orbit (hence cheap).
Daichi Yamato, I don't hate industry, I hate things that don't become more and more efficient over time. Mines on Earth have less and less people in them per ton they mine. That is how capitalism is supposed to work: Greater and greater efficiently. I began playing Eve because of its economy, and I would like to make that economy bigger and more complex. When people spend less manhours mining, we can add another feature, maybe people have to make BPOs somehow, and maybe ships require warp-core fuel, and maybe people can make skillbooks, and maybe people can make colonies on planets and asteroids so their mines have workers, and maybe those colonies can be isk-incomes, but also require food and tobacco and dairy products and can make these things, etc. I'm here for an actual economy, not a smoke-and-mirrors economy (its smoke-and-mirrors because the asteroids are spawned, instead of always existed but had to be found and surveyed and mined in an efficient way (you know, you actually design the pit in open-pit mines so that you have to remove the least amount of rock to get the most amount of ore, that could be a profession) (you know, surveying could be a profession, most places on earth that are surveyed are not financially viable, which is true for many planets in PI)). |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1042
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 16:33:00 -
[17] - Quote
fair enough, but auto mining like PI would make mining lose value, so those that do chose to mine in the belts would have to do so for even longer to make as much money as before. If u dnt have the time urself to make a battleship, have friends help u. i dnt think ur supposed to have one man outfits chucking out ships without massive amounts of effort. AFK mining is already hated.
as for belts replenishing, i can see why that could create a false economy. but consider how big the belts would actually be in a real universe. more than this player base could go through in a life time. Also consider how NPC corps and CONCORD are able to hand out unlimited amounts of isk as rewards and bounties, and an unlimited supply and of resources and ships is needed to keep that unlimited isk in check. Even with replenishing belts, inflation is still a big thing in EVE.
Yes to searching and surveying belts for good spots, but leave minimal belts for noobs in ventures until they know how to search. yes to surveying planets for good ones. Yes to players making BPO's, skill books, and every damn thing, once isk faucets are reduced and/or other isk sinks are introduced to prevent inflation going nuts. Yes to colonies on planets, infact there is a thread called Planetary Interaction 2.0 that may interest u.
dunno about colonies on roids. maybe if they take frequent upkeep to manage. and dunno about fuel for ships, that may just be where i draw the line. i have hundreds of ships, but not hundreds of PI stuffs.
Although u want to make the economy bigger and complex, u certainly want it to be automated. My problem with this is that it removes player skill as a factor for efficiency and replaces it with player age, and before u say anything; yes being active, attentive and knowledgeable about mining makes u more efficient. i dearly hope eve does not come to a point where things are more automated. They are moving in the right direction the more players do the grunt work.
There are no vets in EVE. Only varying levels of Noobery. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1042
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 16:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=7655
PI 2.0 There are no vets in EVE. Only varying levels of Noobery. |
Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
46
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 17:08:00 -
[19] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Although u want to make the economy bigger and complex, u certainly want it to be automated. My problem with this is that it removes player skill as a factor for efficiency and replaces it with player age, and before u say anything; yes being active, attentive and knowledgeable about mining makes u more efficient. i dearly hope eve does not come to a point where things are more automated. They are moving in the right direction the more players do the grunt work.
But automation can require lots of effort to put up. You know, it took billions to set up the Tesla Motors factory, and its only using a fraction of its total building area. Setting up an efficient factory takes lots of effort, but since it pays off for years to come it CAN take lots of effort without being too labor-intensive. But mining as is, it requires constant brainless effort, like shoveling dirt with a spade. What I would suggest is that we can set up a huge machine that shovels for us and requires upkeep, but it certainly would be far more difficult to make than a shovel and would require more thinking to set up efficiently. It would be ideal if it could be made such that what is most efficient is not obvious, so people would find more efficient ways regularly for a long time.
We can fight inflation by increasing the amount of transactions that the isk performs. The more it is used the less isk-sinks we require. So if we for example added that people had to make and sell/buy warp-fuel then inflation would slow down. I assume that Concord gets isk from the empires that the empires get from tax on empire planets (and player taxes like sell-order fee).
"as for belts replenishing, i can see why that could create a false economy. but consider how big the belts would actually be in a real universe. more than this player base could go through in a life time." - Well, yes, but we would start with the easiest ones, and that would be the theoretically cheapest ore we would ever mine. But then we would develop technologies and efficient practices to mine more and more difficult sources. Almost like making a deeper and deeper open-pit mine where more and more outside rock has to be removed to make the middle point at the bottom reach into more of the mineral-rich rock that is in a vein under that location. For it to be financially possible to go deeper and deeper and mine rock that was previously out of reach, the machines get bigger and more efficient engines, and the workers get more efficient work-routines, and the blasting becomes more efficient, and the loading becomes more efficient, and the crushing becomes more efficient, and the road becomes more efficient, and the digger becomes more efficient, and the ground-sonar becomes more efficient so they can map the ore better, and the pit itself gets a more efficient shape (only expanding the side that gives most extra ore at the bottom, for example). Mining in Eve is overly simplified, just point and shoot and then the laser just takes care of it all while the pilot has to figure out something to entertain himself/herself.
"and dunno about fuel for ships" - You only fly one ship at a time, and flying would presumably be the only thing that uses it up, so fuel for ships wouldn't be too much of a hassle. And your enemy's fuel manufacturing facilities would offer another strategic target in a war.
Thanks, I will check out the link. |
James Nikolas Tesla
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
75
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 18:38:00 -
[20] - Quote
So we make mining passive and less risky so more people would do it which drives down mineral prices and eliminates a whole career path. Yeah, awesome idea. Don't tease the Rats, and if you do, GTFO of the system. Unless you are dumb like me and try to ninja some more ore while an HIC sneaks up on you.
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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2382
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 19:59:00 -
[21] - Quote
James Nikolas Tesla wrote:Yeah, awesome idea.
It really, really is. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
46
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 05:44:00 -
[22] - Quote
James Nikolas Tesla wrote:So we make mining passive and less risky so more people would do it which drives down mineral prices and eliminates a whole career path. Yeah, awesome idea.
You make an example that is obviously not going to work and then saying "hah! it can obviously not be like that!". Stop making strawman arguments. If mining were changed it would be changed in a way that works, so your strawman argument is not a valid argument for why we can't change mining to be more fulfilling and enjoyable. |
James Nikolas Tesla
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
79
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Posted - 2014.02.05 06:10:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ronny Hugo wrote:James Nikolas Tesla wrote:So we make mining passive and less risky so more people would do it which drives down mineral prices and eliminates a whole career path. Yeah, awesome idea. You make an example that is obviously not going to work and then saying "hah! it can obviously not be like that!". Stop making strawman arguments. If mining were changed it would be changed in a way that works, so your strawman argument is not a valid argument for why we can't change mining to be more fulfilling and enjoyable. I was being sarcastic. I guess it wasn't obvious enough for the thick-skulled. Don't tease the Rats, and if you do, GTFO of the system. Unless you are dumb like me and try to ninja some more ore while an HIC sneaks up on you.
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Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
46
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 06:53:00 -
[24] - Quote
James Nikolas Tesla wrote:Ronny Hugo wrote:James Nikolas Tesla wrote:So we make mining passive and less risky so more people would do it which drives down mineral prices and eliminates a whole career path. Yeah, awesome idea. You make an example that is obviously not going to work and then saying "hah! it can obviously not be like that!". Stop making strawman arguments. If mining were changed it would be changed in a way that works, so your strawman argument is not a valid argument for why we can't change mining to be more fulfilling and enjoyable. I was being sarcastic. I guess it wasn't obvious enough for the thick-skulled.
Sarcasm is still strawman. |
Julius Rigel
154
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 08:58:00 -
[25] - Quote
Ronny Hugo wrote:But the topic at hand stated in the first paragraph is why does mining happen the way it happens? No, it says "why can't". And my answer to "why can't mining happen like PI?" was "mining can happen like PI, and here are some examples of how that could be implemented".
On the other hand, the question "why doesn't mining happen like PI?" is "because PI was a system invented many years later than mining, as a completely new concept that used completely new game mechanics, and they did not try to design a system similar to mining, and they did not try to change the already existing mining system to be similar to the new PI system".
One could speculate that if PI had been invented earlier, then perhaps the system would look more like moon mining, but even then, asteroid mining would still be unaffected.
As for my opinion on your idea, I think that PI is much less interactive than mining, and I think that this is a bad thing, because we are playing a spaceship game in which we fly spaceships, and flying spaceships is the purpose of the game. So taking any aspect of the game away from flying spaceships is not good.
If anything, the opposite should be done; make it so you have to fly spaceships more in order to mine, not less.
As a very basic example of an idea that could make mining more spaceship-y:
Feature / change: Asteroids have a small velocity (5m/s to 50m/s) in an orbit around the warp-in of the asteroid belt or site.
Impact: A mining ship that is not moving will with time become separated from the asteroid it is targeting. Mining lasers will then be out of range of the targeted asteroid. Predicted effect is that a mining ship will have to move to catch up with the asteroid it is mining.
Impact: Bookmarks in asteroid belts / sites that correspond to an asteroid will stop corresponding to that asteroid as the asteroid moves away from the coordinates of the bookmark.
This principle can be observed in other situations currently in the game, such as: A bookmark that corresponds to the location of a wreck will stop corresponding to the location of the wreck if a tractor beam is used to move the wreck. Or, simply, a bookmark that corresponds to the location of a ship will stop corresponding to the location of that ship if the ship moves.
Predicted effect is that haulers warping to and from the belt / site can't keep warping to the same spot, and have to slowboat around or pay better attention to who is where in order to haul efficiently.
Possible issue: The movement and speed might not adequately "shake things up", and it is possible that you could simply click "approach" on your current asteroid, have your hauler warp to your ship, and the added interactivity of moving asteroids would be minimal.
Impact: Some asteroids may move faster than some mining ships are capable of moving. The predicted effect if fairly self-explanatory: You have to fit a different ship to "catch" certain ore types.
Another example:
Feature / change: Asteroids contain both ore (as they do now) and also a new type of "dry rock" that has no use and cannot be reprocessed into anything. Mining functions as normal, but after the amount of ore present in an asteroid is exhausted, mining lasers will keep cycling and filling the cargohold / ore hold with "dry rock".
Impact: Leaving your mining lasers on will produce lots of "dry rock" which has no function and no value, and waste precious time that could be used on mining another asteroid. Predicted effect: Miners have to start paying attention to their survey scanners in order to stop mining and switch asteroids once the targeted asteroid becomes depleted of ore.
Impact: Leaves lots of "barren" asteroids floating around everywhere at the end of the day. I bet there are some technical implications here. Also would have to figure out how to distribute new loads of ore that are supposed to respawn at downtime.
I implore anyone who wishes to post a real (not example) idea of this type to do your homework, get the facts straight, and really consider the impacts of each aspect of your idea. I'm just typing the above to illustrate the possibilities. Do YOU like to undock? |
Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
47
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 09:08:00 -
[26] - Quote
I find your examples intriguing. But I would like to say that we should perhaps try to think of examples that make mining more entertaining. Moon mining as I understand it is hardly entertaining, but it does involve some PVP from time to time to protect your mining equipment. Maybe ore could be mined in a similar way? The bottom line is that the current form of mining is completely void of entertainment value. As I speak I am mining ice, which involves moving to the station and back to bookmark every 23 minutes (and keeping an ear out for the 99% shield alarm from rats). So I am really doing something else, and every 23 minutes I take a 2 minute break where I move my ship and point it at an ice block. All this to make my 28x plex packages last a bit longer. Really, maybe mining is dull because it makes people buy PLEX from CCP and sell it instead of funding their FUN the hard way. |
Julius Rigel
154
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 09:22:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ronny Hugo wrote:Moon mining as I understand it is hardly entertaining, but it does involve some PVP from time to time to protect your mining equipment. Maybe ore could be mined in a similar way? My suggestion is that if your aim is to come up with an idea that is entertaining, just throw PI and moon mining out the window right away, because these are not activities that people generally view as fun and engaging. They are the opposite of that.
Ronny Hugo wrote:The bottom line is that the current form of mining is completely void of entertainment value. As I speak I am mining ice, which involves moving to the station and back to bookmark every 23 minutes (and keeping an ear out for the 99% shield alarm from rats). So I am really doing something else, and every 23 minutes I take a 2 minute break where I move my ship and point it at an ice block. All this to make my 28x plex packages last a bit longer. Well, in my experience (both speaking for myself, and based on what other people have said to me), miners mine because it is relaxing, not because it is entertaining. It's an activity that you can do in EVE to play together with your friends and just chill out and socialize. The income per time is much less than just running missions and salvaging those missions, so it's not something you do with the goal of making lots of money.
So any idea that aims to "spice up" mining has to take this into consideration. Who are the people that mine? Why do they mine? How does my idea change these things? And so on. Do YOU like to undock? |
Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
47
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 09:37:00 -
[28] - Quote
Changed OP to reflect the progression of our discussion. Trying to think of some way mining could be entertaining in of itself. |
Julius Rigel
154
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 10:21:00 -
[29] - Quote
Ronny Hugo wrote:Changed OP to reflect the progression of our discussion. Trying to think of some way mining could be entertaining in of itself. Well, that doesn't help anyone... Now all the replies to the original original post are completely out of context, and anyone who starts reading the thread now will have no idea what we are talking about... Do YOU like to undock? |
Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
47
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 10:35:00 -
[30] - Quote
Julius Rigel wrote:Ronny Hugo wrote:Changed OP to reflect the progression of our discussion. Trying to think of some way mining could be entertaining in of itself. Well, that doesn't help anyone... Now all the replies to the original original post are completely out of context, and anyone who starts reading the thread now will have no idea what we are talking about... Enlighten them if you wish. In my experience practically no one reads the posts between OP and their first post. |
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