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Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids Pleasure Syndicate
20
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Posted - 2011.11.30 06:58:00 -
[31] - Quote
Akita T wrote:Dream Five wrote:Also some people hoard a lot of ISK :) Define "a lot"
Trillions. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
401
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Posted - 2011.11.30 07:02:00 -
[32] - Quote
Dream Five wrote:Akita T wrote:Dream Five wrote:Also some people hoard a lot of ISK :) Define "a lot" Trillions. I doubt there's more than a handful of people that ever had more than a trillion as liquid ISK in their wallet for more than a few moments. Total asset value though, yeah, enough of those around. Just not liquid. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Contributor_name:Akita_T#Contributions_link_collection |
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids Pleasure Syndicate
20
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Posted - 2011.11.30 07:35:00 -
[33] - Quote
Akita T wrote:Dream Five wrote:Akita T wrote:Dream Five wrote:Also some people hoard a lot of ISK :) Define "a lot" Trillions. I doubt there's more than a handful of people that ever had more than a trillion as liquid ISK in their wallet for more than a few moments. Total asset value though, yeah, enough of those around. Just not liquid.
WTB ISK! |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
209
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Posted - 2011.11.30 12:19:00 -
[34] - Quote
Dream Five wrote: Someone mined minerals and put them on the market, paying broker fee and tax. You buy minerals with ISK and pay the broker fee (assuming you put a buy order). You make a ship. You sell the ship, you lose ISK to broker fee and tax again. You buy more minerals, you lose more ISK to broker fee and tax etc. This repeats indefinitely, ISK sinks to broker fees and taxes in a geometric progression. I'm guessing this is probably the biggest sink, since each market transaction is taxed.
Also some people hoard a lot of ISK :)
You buy minerals with ISK, but from another player. No NPC corp sells moon minerals. Therefore this is neither a faucet or sink, it's merely ISK moving from A to B - a transfer of wealth. |
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids Pleasure Syndicate
21
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Posted - 2011.11.30 23:36:00 -
[35] - Quote
Ptraci wrote:Dream Five wrote: Someone mined minerals and put them on the market, paying broker fee and tax. You buy minerals with ISK and pay the broker fee (assuming you put a buy order). You make a ship. You sell the ship, you lose ISK to broker fee and tax again. You buy more minerals, you lose more ISK to broker fee and tax etc. This repeats indefinitely, ISK sinks to broker fees and taxes in a geometric progression. I'm guessing this is probably the biggest sink, since each market transaction is taxed.
Also some people hoard a lot of ISK :)
You buy minerals with ISK, but from another player. No NPC corp sells moon minerals. Therefore this is neither a faucet or sink, it's merely ISK moving from A to B - a transfer of wealth.
I'm sorry dude but I don't think you read what i wrote. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
108
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Posted - 2011.11.30 23:58:00 -
[36] - Quote
Dream Five wrote: Someone mined minerals and put them on the market, paying broker fee and tax. You buy minerals with ISK and pay the broker fee (assuming you put a buy order). You make a ship. You sell the ship, you lose ISK to broker fee and tax again. You buy more minerals, you lose more ISK to broker fee and tax etc. This repeats indefinitely, ISK sinks to broker fees and taxes in a geometric progression. I'm guessing this is probably the biggest sink, since each market transaction is taxed.
Been a while since I read it, but Skill Books were the largest Sink, LP was next and then taxes/fees. |
Frost Mistress
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
14
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Posted - 2011.12.01 04:43:00 -
[37] - Quote
Yeah I don't see taxes and the like having an impact. Sure the take some ISK out, but when you compare to what was needed to buy a good IE amount drawn from a faucet it is like dumping a cup of water out of a full bathtub. Don't let my frosty appearance and cold attitude fool you.Once you get to know me you'll find I'm a complete and total *****-á |
Zions Child
Odyssey Inc SpaceMonkey's Alliance
200
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Posted - 2011.12.01 04:47:00 -
[38] - Quote
Frost Mistress wrote:Yeah I don't see taxes and the like having an impact. Sure the take some ISK out, but when you compare to what was needed to buy a good IE amount drawn from a faucet it is like dumping a cup of water out of a full bathtub. Although I believe Incursions are severely imbalancing the isk faucet/sink thing (e.g. I made about 400mill in rewards from Incursion running, and only got around 50k LP, which is not nearly enough of a sink), the ISK in this game is fairly well balanced. |
electrostatus
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
13
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Posted - 2011.12.01 04:58:00 -
[39] - Quote
I'm a bit curious if CCP has all sinks pool into one NPC wallet. Would also be interesting to see how much isk is made in one day and how much isk was removed in one day. Or in one hour. PI Profit Calculator: calculates your profits and taxes of any PI product depending on how you built them! |
Venkul Mul
Vikramaditya
2
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Posted - 2011.12.01 12:48:00 -
[40] - Quote
From the graph in QUEN4 2010 (and discarding the last quarter here the removal of the training skill skewed a buit the expenses in training skills):
Isk sinks: skills: about 6 trillions blueprints: 4-5 trillions LP store: 4 trillions Transaction tax 1 trillion Broker fee 1 trillion
Sovereignty costs, offices rentals and insurance cost aren't even cited, so each one of those expenses should be under the trillion.
Isk faucets: Bounties: 24 trillions commodities sales 5-6 trillions Agent mission reward 2-3 triillions Mission time bonus 2-3 billions
From that QUEN: "EVE Central Bank has been monitoring the money supply closely and is becoming increasingly concerned about the rate of growth in the total money supply and the subsequent risk of inflation increase (see next section). The bank has therefore proposed that in 2011 there should be a focus on increasing ISK sinks in order to curb potential inflation."
Maybe the new PI tax rate is a step in that direction, but it will be counter balanced by moving from NPC owned to player owned custom offices in low sec and 0.0.
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Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids Pleasure Syndicate
26
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Posted - 2011.12.15 08:17:00 -
[41] - Quote
Frost Mistress wrote:Yeah I don't see taxes and the like having an impact. Sure the take some ISK out, but when you compare to what was needed to buy a good IE amount drawn from a faucet it is like dumping a cup of water out of a full bathtub.
CCP needs to upgrade their sinks to Kohler. |
Aineko Macx
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
30
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Posted - 2011.12.15 11:22:00 -
[42] - Quote
David Forge wrote:Diomedes Calypso wrote:Far and away the largest "sink" is people quitting the game with billions of isk in their inactive accounts. There was a developer post on this.. can't link it right now. I'm sorry, could somebody link this? I'm not having much luck searching for it but I would like to read it. Thanks for your trouble. From QEN 2010 Q4:
QEN wrote:In Q4, 2010, EVE's subscriber count grew by 9 percent, which translated into an increase in money supply. The money supply rose by 11 percent in Q4 2010 and there is now a combined 445 trillion ISK on all accounts within EVE. That represents the sum total of ISK in the game, on both active and inactive accounts. To get a better understanding of the current money supply, we also calculate the total money supply of players currently playing EVE, omitting lapsed subscriptions. Approximately 258 trillion ISK are on active paying accounts and 33 trillion on player corporation accounts, increasing the total on active paying accounts and player corporation accounts by around 35 trillion in the quarter. Therefore 154 trillion were on inactive accounts at the time of the stats snapshot.
And some stats on ISK faucets and sinks: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1401431&page=3#67 |
Riley Moore
Sentinum Research
41
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Posted - 2011.12.15 14:59:00 -
[43] - Quote
In my (deep) pockets Need Researched BPO's? Be it drones, ammo, charges, you name it, visit my forum store now! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=445524#post445524 |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
0
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Posted - 2011.12.15 15:23:00 -
[44] - Quote
I'm kinda confused by alot of peoples defenition of 'sink'.
To me any action that destroys property or Isk could be considered a sink.
LP/NPC merchants to me don't fit this description as when your ISK disappears something of equal (and sometimes greater) value was spawned.
Take a book for example I pay 1 mill for book, I then own the book which is worth 1 mil , this book would never have exsisted if I had not bought it (except as a 'potential' item on a market list) therefore no isk/materials where created or destroyed it has merely changed form.
The 'use' of a book (player or npc bought) is a diffrent matter, once it's used it no longer has any material value, therfore my 1 mll isk has been 'sunk'.
The same with the use of any consumable possibly the biggets I'm suprised no one has mentioned is Ammo. POS feul must also rate highly I would imagine.
Sinks also include any time you pay an NPC for a service for which there is no material return. ie Taxes, Corp offices.
Also as I understand it destrution of ships and modules is a sink.
If your ship is destroyed then you lost (ship cost + insurance cost) you gain (insurance payout) a net loss of property or isk.
Any module on your ship that isn't looted within 2 hours is also property lost to oblivion.
I would say rigs/cybernetics are also a sink , as they loose any intrinsic value on use and could be seen as a form of consumable ( consumed for a long term buff ), They can also be destroyed and need replacing therefore sinking more isk.
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Jenn Makanen
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
96
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Posted - 2011.12.15 15:31:00 -
[45] - Quote
Professor Alphane wrote:I'm kinda confused by alot of peoples defenition of 'sink'.
To me any action that destroys property or Isk could be considered a sink.
LP/NPC merchants to me don't fit this description as when your ISK disappears something of equal (and sometimes greater) value was spawned.
Take a book for example I pay 1 mill for book, I then own the book which is worth 1 mil , this book would never have exsisted if I had not bought it (except as a 'potential' item on a market list) therefore no isk/materials where created or destroyed it has merely changed form.
The 'use' of a book (player or npc bought) is a diffrent matter, once it's used it no longer has any material value, therfore my 1 mll isk has been 'sunk'.
The same with the use of any consumable possibly the biggets I'm suprised no one has mentioned is Ammo. POS feul must also rate highly I would imagine.
Sinks also include any time you pay an NPC for a service for which there is no material return. ie Taxes, Corp offices.
Also as I understand it destrution of ships and modules is a sink.
If your ship is destroyed then you lost (ship cost + insurance cost) you gain (insurance payout) a net loss of property or isk.
Any module on your ship that isn't looted within 2 hours is also property lost to oblivion.
I would say rigs/cybernetics are also a sink , as they loose any intrinsic value on use and could be seen as a form of consumable ( consumed for a long term buff ), They can also be destroyed and need replacing therefore sinking more isk.
ISK Sink - Something that takes ISK out of player hands. ISK Faucet - Something that puts ISK into player hands.
Note, this isn't a specific players hands. This is any players hands.
A ship being destroyed removed no isk from anyone. yes, a player no longer has the value of the asset, but the isk in their wallet doesn't change. The ISK that was paid for the ship is safe and warm in the manufacturers wallet.
So you understand it wrong. We're not concerned about an individuals wallet. We're concerned about the total value of isk in all player wallets as a whole.
Rigs aren't a sink, as no isk was destroyed in their making (except a minor cost for the use of a manufacturing slot).
Implants are a sink, but only those bought from the LP store (implants from missions don't count). And they're a sink at the time they're bought.
PI taxes are going to be interesting here. There's a significantly higher percentage leaving there, as related to the total value of the PI goods. |
Riley Moore
Sentinum Research
41
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Posted - 2011.12.15 15:32:00 -
[46] - Quote
Sink means when actual isk is destroyed.
Suppose the entire eve economy has 5.000 trillion isk, and suddenly one person has all this isk. If he buys a 5.000 Trillion isk bpo from a npc, that isk is destroyed, and the entire eve economy has 0 isk and a bpo. At this point the bpo is worth less then it was before.
The point of isk sinks is to counter inflation by removing the isk itself, the value of goods will change depending on how much isk is left in the total pool. Need Researched BPO's? Be it drones, ammo, charges, you name it, visit my forum store now! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=445524#post445524 |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
0
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Posted - 2011.12.15 16:19:00 -
[47] - Quote
OK sorry my bad, you literally mean just the currency not assests. |
Ulstan
State Protectorate Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2011.12.15 19:10:00 -
[48] - Quote
As said, an ISK sink is when ISK ceases to exist - not when it is transferred from player to player.
an ISK faucet is when new ISK is introduced.
Ships being destroyed or sold is not an ISK sink or faucet.
Sinks are things where a player spends money and it doesn't go to another player: med clone upgrades, jump clone installations, LP store offers, station services, taxes, broker fees, office rentals, insurance premiums, anything bought from an NPC corporation, all are sinks.
Faucets are things like NPC bounties and mission ISK rewards (NOT LP REWARDS) or insurance payouts.
Are PLEX an ISK sink? I haven't bought any in a long time and I can't remember if the players buy them only from other players or can also buy them directly from CCP (using ISK) |
David Forge
Forge Enterprises
5
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Posted - 2011.12.16 02:12:00 -
[49] - Quote
PLEX are faucets. |
Riley Moore
Sentinum Research
42
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Posted - 2011.12.16 02:16:00 -
[50] - Quote
David Forge wrote:PLEX are faucets.
No, they're not. Plex is an item that gets created which then is traded for already existing isk. Need Researched BPO's? Be it drones, ammo, charges, you name it, visit my forum store now! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=445524#post445524 |
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Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
27
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Posted - 2011.12.16 03:33:00 -
[51] - Quote
eve q4 2010 http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q4-2010.pdf
The Monetary System In Q4, 2010, EVEGÇÿs subscriber count grew by 9%, which translated into an increase in money supply. The money supply rose by 11% in Q4 2010 and there is now a combined 445 trillion ISK on all accounts within EVE. That represents the sum total of ISK in the game, on both active and inactive accounts. To get a better understanding of the current money supply, we also calculate the total money supply of players currently playing EVE, omitting lapsed subscriptions. Approximately 258 trillion ISK are on active paying accounts and 33 trillion on player corporation accounts, increasing the total on active paying accounts and player corporation accounts by around 35 trillion in the quarter.
....
I'll leave my commentary off mostly as its more complicated than most will grok, but the long and short of it is that 11% a quarter would be like a 50% inflation rate annually without probably 1/2 of that moving from active to inactive status.
Read the report farther and you get an idea about the magnitude of net earnings faucets vs sinks. Not only are Faucets 2x what the sinks are, the totaly daily flow o netf isk created is of an ammount of a similar order of magnitude of the total daily market trades (its about 1/2......not 1/10th is what i mean).
Much of the trade on the market we know has got to be cycling of isk of traders turning around and buying more stuff with the isk they just collected....so truly the isk creation is substantial
Given the retirement figures as proprotion of total isk outstanding and the percentages of flow per day to trading
I have got to think that the vast majority of the isk in the game never gets touched at all but piles up in peoples accounts who like shooting red boxes and then only leaves the game( (and doesn't really leave by some definition) when they let their account go innactive.
Basically, the player given economy is a fraction of the META game player moves of piling up isk they'll never use and retiring with amounts that would absolutely overwhelm the markets if they had instead tried to use it actively. |
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
20
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Posted - 2011.12.16 04:02:00 -
[52] - Quote
It's worth noting that even if you don't count inactive accounts as an isk sink, it still messes with velocity of money. A money sink is equivalent inflation-wise to putting money into something with zero money velocity (that is, the money comes, but it never leaves).
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Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
27
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Posted - 2011.12.16 04:17:00 -
[53] - Quote
Quote:This quarter was an unusual one for EVE Online for several different reasons. Starting at a slow pace, it quickly jumped into overdrive once the details of the Incursion expansion started to become clear. The introduction of a new salvage ship (the Noctis), removal of learning skills, and excitement about the final release of the Incursion feature in January all contributed to a very active Q4 of 2010. So active, in fact, that we saw the daily trade value record increasing twice in December, ending in an incredible 1.8 trillion ISKGÇÖs worth of trades in a 24-hour period, in more than 1.2 million individual trades GÇô and this is only on the main EVE market, not taking into account contracts or direct trade between players.
brags about the immense record trade volume achieved one december day of 1.8 trillion isk. Now, in the quote from my other post above we noted that active accounts had about 300 trillion sitting in them and inactive accounts another 150 trillion or so.
I know there are isk transactions outside of the markets (contracts, player to player) but the open market has got to be at least what those are (i'd guess way more but still)
That trading volume is such a tiny portion of isk reserves.. even at double or tripple it we're still talking about trade only being in a 1% of Isk in accounts .....
.... and we know that traders make up a fair chunk of the volume too ..active traders will likely cycle their isk more quickly until they have too much isk to employ with their time and interest in the game.
I'm guessing that if you tried to estimate natural user-buyers of goods and services (as opposed to peole buying with the expectation to resell or use items to create an item that they will in) its far less than 1 trillion total daily including the end user portion of player to player transactions.
For all you guys arguing about the purity of eve money supply and the risks of ccp tampering in the markets...
.... take a closer look at the magnitudes.
what you do and your friends do in game are much more the exception perhaps.
It looks like the big story of the game is a that a Fair segment of the players collect ISK as a large portion of their game play then leave in in their accounts when they move to play another game
Thats what the economy is really about... meta things like real people collecting some game points in he way of virtual currency then leaving the "score" intact with it worth little to them unless and until they come back 3 years later, at which time it would likely be worth 1/4 of what it was when they left in terms of the relative effort needed to get isk per hour then vs now.
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Woo Glin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
299
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Posted - 2011.12.16 04:34:00 -
[54] - Quote
insurance is an isk sink. did anyone do that one yet? |
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
27
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Posted - 2011.12.16 04:52:00 -
[55] - Quote
Woo Glin wrote:insurance is an isk sink. did anyone do that one yet?
If you look at the numbers on the CCP report I linked you can squint your eyes and see insurance on the graphs
BTW insurance purchase is a sink but the insurance payout is a faucet
They show more being paid out than taken in by insurance so insurance is a net faucet of ISK into the game
Basically insurance looks to be almost negibible in magnitude in its contribution as a faucet or sink.
HOWEVER,, this excercise is leading me to beleive you have two seperate economies in eve.. that in which players who actually use the ships and get them blown up, participate, and another "economy" of people who create isk with pve and let it stack up.
the "real" economy is probably much smaller in size than the isk values unrelated to eventual ship warfare ... but as that is the true game economy, insurance MAY be a quite important factor in that real portion of the economy....it could grow from being 3% of economic activity to 30% of activity for the portion of players that it matters to
(NOTE all of you guys with a problem with words.. yes ships can get detroyed and game Wealth can get detroyed meaning you'd have less stuff you could sell for isk.... but isk itself isn't destroyed only things that have an isk value) |
David Forge
Forge Enterprises
5
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Posted - 2011.12.16 16:58:00 -
[56] - Quote
Riley Moore wrote:David Forge wrote:PLEX are faucets. No, they're not. Plex is an item that gets created which then is traded for already existing isk.
Now that you've said I wonder how I could have thought differently. The idiot thanks you for your correction.
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