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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1351
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Posted - 2014.08.26 15:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote: It really is amazing how all the people who dont play eve any more seem to want input as though their opinion matters in the slightest. .
So you think the opinions of the huge number of pvpers who have stopped playing faction war over the years should not matter to ccp at all? The only opinions that should matter are the 50 of you who like the new Null Sec Junior game fw has become?
Since the disinterest in fw is also coming from many of the great gallente faction war pvper's its hard for you to argue the game is really great and they are just bitter because they are not winning. They won too. They just don't care very much.
Its time to finally face it. The game sucks. The 50 of you who do not realize it shouldn't matter. You will play no matter how bad the game is. For that reason it is your opinion that should not matter to ccp.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1351
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Posted - 2014.08.26 16:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
chatgris wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote: TL;DR, basically, join QCATS, play LOL, stop posting.
It's Robocraft now! Crosi Wesdo wrote:
It really is amazing how all the people who dont play eve any more seem to want input as though their opinion matters in the slightest.
Some of us stopped playing for a reason, still follow the game from a distance and still know enough about the game to be able to form coherent opinions about what could make the game better. Not defending anyone in particular, but making the point that someone who doesn't play much can still have valid input.
Chatgris you should be a kindergarten teacher. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1351
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Posted - 2014.08.26 16:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote: It really is amazing how all the people who dont play eve any more seem to want input as though their opinion matters in the slightest.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: Making suggestions about the game is one thing, ...!
Does the opinion of formerly active players matter in the slightest or not?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1356
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Posted - 2014.09.03 13:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Don't know what the fuss is all about. Most of the time, taking a home system generates a ton of content (Okkamon, Pav/Kinakka, Asakai), and sometimes it doesn't (Heyd, Ladistier). Whatever. We were in "Take Warzone Beast Mode" and accept that one of the consequences was no fights at the end. The only thing lolworthy here is Squatdog's assessment only because he was spot on in his analysis. The way to beat the blob is to spread out and force fights in many places. The Amarr did this exact thing to the Minmatar when they were down to just Sahtogas and it worked for them. Caldari could have potentially royally griefed us Gallente militia neckbeards if they had employed this strategy BEFORE all the systems were taken. Maybe we would have adjusted, maybe we wouldn't have - we'll never know. Whatever. Good to see you back. Never thought you'd leave. I think it's time to add "We didn't want to maintain total warzone control anyways" Edit: Also, you guys still have us in total time warzone controlled with a score of about 180 days to 4.
Sure they could have tried to spread out the blob to keep the systems. But no one cared enough to bother. At least not the people who have been in fw long enough to really understand the occupancy mechanics.
The pvp corps are leaving and being replaced with corps where every member has a plexing alt. Call it the "new Gallente."
The forums are full of the same very vocal 6 people who think fw occupancy is something worth caring about. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1356
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Posted - 2014.09.05 14:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Rahelis wrote:There is nothing in FW that is worth fighting for .. There is nothing in this game worth fighting for - unless you decide it's worth it.
FW has overwhelming numbers of people deciding the occupancy war is not worth it.
At some point a rational person might decide to try and figure out why that is.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1356
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Posted - 2014.09.05 15:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:Cearain wrote: FW has overwhelming numbers of people deciding the occupancy war is not worth it.
At some point a rational person might decide to try and figure out why that is.
PROTIP: People who care about occupancy warfare don't generally care about LP or isk, beyond that needed to sustain the occupancy war. Thus, those saying it's "not worth it" either don't have the organizational support to effectively engage in occupancy warfare, or are more interested in farming LP.
You are just going in circles.
Why wouldn't there be all sorts of organizational support if lots of people want to win the occupancy war?
There is very little organizational support because so few care to win it.
As far as your claim that the 500,000 other account holders who find winning the fw occupancy war is not worth their time are all just isk farmers and only the 100 or so who care about the occupancy war want to play a fun engaging game, well I won't even go there. Perhaps you can think about your conclusion yourself.
Bottom line this last sweep proved that the interest in faction war occupancy is at an all time low since inferno. Are we setting the bar so low that having 1 or 200 characters caring about the occupancy war is sufficient? That is fairly pathetic when you have a mmo with 500,000 accounts.
But really keep thinking you're right and the other 99.98% of players don't get how great it is to rabbit plex with an alt account. Keep thinking the problem is with everyone else. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1356
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Posted - 2014.09.05 20:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Bad Messenger wrote:why to do same thing for cause when doing same elsewhere give lot of isk? Fun
I agree with your answer. Isk can only be used ingame so what is the point if there is nothing fun to do with it? The question is whether getting an alt to rabbit plex (which we have already seen many in the gallente have done) is fun.
The overwhelming response from most people who thoroughly understand the mechanics is that they couldn't care less about the overall occupancy war. Now some people do think it's fun no doubt. Sasawong must have found it enjoyable for him and his alt Sheltering sky to get that many vp. But the vast majority who see how the occupancy game is played decide its not worth their time.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1356
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Posted - 2014.09.06 13:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
Fenris Orion wrote:Dear god, so much crying and foolishness in this thread.
Taking and especially keeping control of systems is of chief importance to people actively engaged in FW (non-farming-alts). Why!? Because all of our stuff is in stations, and if we loose control of the system we can't use those stations. Ergo: taking and keeping systems is a major effort and generates fantastic PVP opportunities in strategically important systems.
If you missed this concept somewhere along the way, do us all a favor, and go play WOW or something.
I wonder how many CalMil have ships and gear locked up in stations all across the war zone right now... I have a bunch of loot locked up in Tama right now myself, and put up quite a fight trying to disrupt the iHub bash for it. Hilarious fun, btw, killed an Oracle with my Astero before anyone could get to me.
Glad to have active targets again. Bring on the Squid Pasta!
Try your best to actually win occupancy for about a year and then come back and tell me about the rich strategy of the game.
Let me say you will either be like XG and Sasawong sitting an alt in plexes, or you will be like the other 499,900 players who think fw occupancy is not worth their time. Not to mention the numerous fw vets who left fw and often eve altogether.
And as far as WOW why would I play that? Thats a false dichotomy. There are other better games to learn/play with actual strategy. Eve can be good if they can get it so it delivers multiple entertaining fights in an hour and a half or so. But I am not interested in rabbit plexing with an alt. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1356
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Posted - 2014.09.06 14:26:00 -
[9] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Cearain maybe you should just move a bunch of ships to tama and see how long it takes you to get fights when you are undocked and flying around the system. Feel free to poke your head into suj/ked as well. All decent systems to find a few fights per hour no prob.
I could find alot of fights in null sec by undocking in a select few blobby null sec systems as well.
Ideally Faction war would to be a mechanic that forced people to spread out to defend their systems throughout the effected regions. CCP has had varying success at this. But the current iteration is as close to null sec as it has ever been. With the new disparaty between offensive and defensive plexing and Gallente's alt d-plexing army fw has never been such a blob for the win game.
The other issue is what would going to tama or ked really do from an occupancy perspective? I am sure I would gain more vp by having 4 alts rabbit plexing systems. I was in rvb and looked for something beyond just random fights with no overriding objective. And I had good fun doing it for a while. I played faction war that way and have fun doing that too, but its better in a neutral corp since you don't have to hassle around with de-plexing alts to dock and can shoot all the fw players. But again that game play is only fun for a while. CCP still needs to put it all together where fighting for occupancy as efficiently as possible does not involve any alts rabbit plexing. Until that happens you will have a choice whether you want to get as much pvp as possible or you want to gain occupancy as much as possible. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1356
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Posted - 2014.09.06 16:46:00 -
[10] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:Try your best to actually win occupancy for about a year and then come back and tell me about the rich strategy of the game.
We've done it twice and I've tried to tell you all about it but you won't listen.
I listened. Your alt captured over 100 plexes in 2 weeks. Your main didn't even have that many vp during that week.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1356
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Posted - 2014.09.06 17:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:Try your best to actually win occupancy for about a year and then come back and tell me about the rich strategy of the game.
We've done it twice and I've tried to tell you all about it but you won't listen. I listened. Your alt captured over 100 plexes in 2 weeks. Your main didn't even have that many vp during that week. Why have a dog and wag your own tail? If people allow these toothless alts to operate, they clearly dont care enough about the area....
I'm not interested in chasing alts that will just hide in a neighboring system. If that's your thing then your playing the right game.
CCP has ignored the core issue with plexing for so long, that the main fw players are now defending alt plexing for the win. Everyone else has walked away from the game.
One thing we do agree on is that very few people care about winning the occupancy war.
Keep spending your time logging in alts and orbitting buttons, if that is fun for you. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1357
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Posted - 2014.09.08 02:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
Fenris Orion wrote:Cearain wrote:
Try your best to actually win occupancy for about a year and then come back and tell me about the rich strategy of the game
I have done exactly that for over a year and a half now, and I can tell you that you and your crybaby cohorts are utterly clueless. I have helped and at times lead the charge to take and defend systems up and down the eastern front of the Gallente/Caldari war zone. It's what FW is all about, farming alts spending all their time in quite systems are annoying at best, and a completely side-bar subject in terms of FW game content. Either go somewhere else to cry, or bring yourself to Tama and show us how superior your skills are.... We'll add you to our killboards like everyone else.
You think alts are a sidebar. Meanwhile XG has his alt capturing over 100 plexes in 2 weeks and helping gallente capture all caldari systems.
I'm not interested in arguing with the clueless.
Have fun in your occupancy efforts, where you think the alts are just a sidebar.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1357
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Posted - 2014.09.08 15:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
Yuri Antollare wrote:I like the summation of your argument there, it's exactly what it was 12 pages ago.
You argue, wall of text and talk past almost everyone individually in Galmill for 13 pages, and your argument is verbatim what it was at the start...
Thats an incredible amount of close mindedness and arrogance even for you.
The fact that XGs alt had over captured over 100 plexes in 2 weeks leading up to taking all caldari systems is pretty much a summation of faction war. I realize there are some in the galmilitia that don't like that fact. So you come on the forums and rage against me for bringing it up.
If you mean argument as in bickering/namecalling yes there has been that. (see your post above you in no way address the fact regarding XGs alt, you just express your anger with me. )
This is pretty much the model:
1)Cearain posts a fact and some argument based on the fact. 2)Gallente players come in and shout "you're stubborn" or "you're opinion doesn't matter" Or "you're arrogant" or "you are just mad" or "you're a crybaby," or "go play wow" One guy says he doesn't have the attention span to finish a newspaper article, so there is no way he can handle my 5 paragraph response etc etc. This isn't really "argument" in the logical sense of the word.
If you mean argument as in actually engaging the facts I raise there really hasn't been much. There has a been a little bit though.
One galmilitia argued that vp and plexes are irrelevant to the occupancy war. But between his claims versus ccps dev blogs and my own eyes I will believe the latter. Do you think vp are irrelevant? Do you think the alts rabbit plexing everywhere are irrelevant to the occupancy war? I said if gallente had no rabbit plexing alts they would be lucky to be at tier 2. Do you disagree? You need the alt plexers to deal with the enemy alt plexers. That is how the game works. I don't blame anyone. I and many others just don't care for it.
Crosi makes a completely different argument. He argues that it is fine that most plexes are captured with alts. He is entitled to his opinion. I just think paying for alts to rabbit plex is no fun. It's unclear that crosi and I even disagree about anything that actually happens in the game. We just disagree on whether playing the current game is worth a persons time or not.
That's really a summation of the threads here.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1357
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Posted - 2014.09.08 17:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Cearain wrote:Crosi makes a completely different argument. He argues that it is fine that most plexes are captured with alts. ...
Not even close,...There is an advantage to alt defensive tactics which imo is not the end of the world .
Are most plexes captured by these alts or not? One of XG's alts captured more plexes than his main. So we know that its true for him.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: Ive siad dozens of times that in the current iteration, NO systems have been taken by evasion tactics. .
This is vague. Are you claiming that no offensive plexing alt has ever contributed to the contested level of a system that was ultimately flipped? Or are you just saying offensive alts did not join in the bunker bust at the end? If its the first you are wrong. I know my alts contributed to the contested level of systems that were filpped. If its the latter your point is trivial.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: [Alt defensive plexing] ensures that systems only change hands if there is a concerted pvp push. .
Since defensive plexing alts are now so powerful it's often true that a system will reach a point where the offensive side must be able to have a blob that can hold the single system sufficiently long. They have to bring the blob in and force out the dplexing alts and any fleets that may come. This is the null sec junior aspect of faction war. If that is your thing you already have null sec. As I said before thats not really interesting to me. I think Faction war can and should be a war that is fought through pvp throughout the warzone. Again I don't think we disagree about how things work just whether the game is worth playing.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: Such a ppush attracts a pvp response.
Unless the other side can not get a matching blob. In that case the system just falls. Sort of like several of the last Caldari systems.
Now that I answered your substantive comments, this is where you can go back to name calling. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1357
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Posted - 2014.09.08 18:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote: It's a bit more complicated than "VP are irrelevant" and "alts don't matter".
First, XG's alt capping 100 plexes is irrelevant if those plexes did not contribute towards capturing a system.
They were relevant to prevent Gallente from losing the system. Faction war occupancy is won by winning more systems than you lose. So both making sure you don't lose a system and helping to gain a system are important. In both cases the vp is important.
Veskrashen wrote: And no, random plexing backwater nowhereville systems DOESN'T MATTER to occupancy warfare for the most part. If and only if it's part of a dedicated campaign to conquer those systems does it make a real difference. See, if CalMil plexes up a non-station system away from the front lines, they get tasty tasty LPs and rack up some VPs. XG's alt then dies in a fire deplexing it, getting crap LP and the same VP. Net change - none. Even if CalMil plexed it all the way up to vulnerable with no opposition, it wouldn't matter unless the PvP focused crews came along and bashed the hub to take it. Which they'd only bother with if they wanted the space. Otherwise, it's better for CalMil to let GalMil alts deplex it down so they can keep getting the tasty tasty offensive LP instead of the crap defensive LP..
If they want to win occupancy then they win the system. The vp is important to winning the system because if you don't get enough the system is invulnerable to being flipped.
If they don't care about occupancy they may leave it to offensive plex thats true. But that doesn't change the fact that vp is important for those who want to win occupancy.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1358
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Posted - 2014.09.08 21:23:00 -
[16] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Phaade wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote: Do you think vp are irrelevant? Do you think the alts rabbit plexing everywhere are irrelevant to the occupancy war? I said if gallente had no rabbit plexing alts they would be lucky to be at tier 2. Do you disagree?
I disagree. Your entire argument rests on "rabbit" plexing alts when in fact my alt stood her ground in every plex. Unfortunately she died 99% of the time because her ships were unfit. (1% of the time the guy raiding the plex loses point - pro pvp) So you post to rebut his point....then concede his point...? What? This thread has gotten even worse. Hard to believe. Edit: the only person posting with any sense of reality is Cearain. And he's a friggin Goon. Crosi, and the rest of you Gayllente, can deny the roll your alt plexer's play all you want. The fact of the matter is when there are 4x the farmers AND 2-4x the active pvp pilots, there is no reasonable way for the opposing faction to fight back. At least under the current system. The ability of your alt plexer's to defend every possible offensive plexing attempt we make, simultaneously blobbing target systems, is what won you the warzone. Once a system reachers a certain contested level, hordes of Gayllente deplex alts show up. Caldari probably would have done the same thing if they could. I personally wouldn't because sitting in a plex with 40 dudes is disgustingly boring. The point is the FW system is incredibly flawed, and could be so much better. I present the fact that caldari are taking back systems as refutation of your numbers and your understanding of the roll that alts play.
Crosi, you are implying that gallente militia has more alts plexing than Caldari. Just saying.
Phaede's post is a fairly straightforward description of how the current mechanics work. There is nothing really controversial there, unless you want to obfuscate what happened so you can believe in Gallente magic and secret strategies.
Is Gallente letting Caldari back in or are they truly powerless to resist this Caldari offensive? That I don't know. But if Gallente want the systems back then they should get in a blob and take them back. After that they can use their alts exactly as Phaede described. My hunch is Gallente rank and file have had enough of this occupancy war and really doesn't care enough to take them back. The winning strategy with these mechanics is a pretty boring one. But that is a completely subjective opinion of mine, I admit it.
Phaede: talking realistically and sensibly about faction war occupancy mechanics will lead to a few but very vocal forum bullies trying to shout you down to get you to stop posting. You have been warned.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1358
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Posted - 2014.09.14 12:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
Yuri Antollare wrote:Cearain wrote:
The fact that XGs alt had over captured over 100 plexes in 2 weeks leading up to taking all caldari systems is pretty much a summation of faction war.
Plenty of people have written lengthy, point by point rebuttals to your "arguments," you simply talk past them. Many people brought up cogent critiques to your "But one guy capped 100 plexes so FW = broken", yet you continue to talk past them and stick to your original point with no variation.
It wasn't "one guy" it was one alt. That alt captured more plexes than his main. That is the problem. No matter how people want to try to obfuscate net vp for your side is how you make systems vulnerable.
Yuri Antollare wrote: No we don't think deplexing alts are "irrelevant" or conversely "the be all and end all," I know the vast majority of Gallente would accept they have "an" impact. However, where we remain open minded and assign varying weights to different causal explanations, we have you, who assigns 100% to one causal explanation and 0% to anything else and does so from a greater distance between your self and FW and "us" and FW. Completely aside from EvE thats just a poor way to conduct robust rational inquiry.
I didn't say it was 100%. I also indicated that after the recent changes you have to blob to take a system. This is the null sec junior part. You blob to take a system and then have your alts in there to deplex systems you hold.
For me I'm not going to spend my time having alts rabbit plex. So the fact that the fw occupancy game relies that much on it makes it uninteresting to me. There are a few people who like but to me its not surprising that in a game with 500,000 accounts there are so few who both with it. Reduce the influence by rabbit plexing alts by rollbacks and better intel tools, and many more pvpers would find the game worth their time. Right now IMO the game sucks.
Yuri Antollare wrote:
As others have said, and you glossed over, deplexing alts are a symptom of Caldari weakness, not a cause. You say XG's alt ran 100 plexes in two weeks (which tbh, somedays I do about 8 my self, so 100 is pretty small,) but in which systems? If the systems didn't matter to occupancy or the Caldari then who cares, if they did matter to the Caldari, how did one gunless frigate manage to stave off their defenders/attackers?
No one cares about most systems. I agree. That is my point. The occupancy war and the tier system is all about gaining systems. Every gallente militia who claimed they "won" the war by gaining all the sytems implicitly agrees with that. Its not home systems its all the systems. Yet no one cares.
You ask why don't people fight against defensless alts. This has been answered again and again.
No one wants to chase alts around when those alts will just go next door. The alt will just go to the next system over and plex. Then what are you going to keep chasing them? They will eventually just jump far enough away to start plexing a new system or cloak until you finish wasting your time with them. Or are you going to start running thier plex timer down? Thats not much fun either when likely no one even knows thier. You will have a very boring night. Again rollbacks will reduce the influence of these rabbit alts as will real time intel about where plexes are being run. The latter will help ensure that pvp is inolved in captuing plexes.
Yuri Antollare wrote:
What you fail to dispute is the fact that if Caldari defended the system, defensive plex alts would have 0 effect. So, hopefully, you can see it's really strange to say the alt is the issue when in reality who held the system came down to whether Caldari defended or not. Someone actually has to open the box to see if the Cat has guns or not.
Yeah have fun chasing the plexing alts. It's not for me or the vast majority of players.
That was all the actual substance about the mechanics in your post. I hope you understand why so few people bother with the occupancy war.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1358
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Posted - 2014.09.14 12:35:00 -
[18] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Phaade wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote: Do you think vp are irrelevant? Do you think the alts rabbit plexing everywhere are irrelevant to the occupancy war? I said if gallente had no rabbit plexing alts they would be lucky to be at tier 2. Do you disagree?
I disagree. Your entire argument rests on "rabbit" plexing alts when in fact my alt stood her ground in every plex. Unfortunately she died 99% of the time because her ships were unfit. (1% of the time the guy raiding the plex loses point - pro pvp) So you post to rebut his point....then concede his point...? What? This thread has gotten even worse. Hard to believe. I can actually fit my alt's ship with pvp mods to get the same exact result. In that case I guess it's OK and we won FW fair and square. Anyways, haters gonna hate. If it were all about deplexing alts, then why hasn't anybody else taken the entire warzone over the past couple years? Don't tell me your side didn't try to do it because I was there defending my home systems when you did.
You don't get it. Pve ships often fit mods on their ships. Having that happen doesn't give incentive to pvp. Timer rollbacks and making it easier for pvpers to fight for plexes is how you do it.
Why don't lots of people get defensive plexing alts? Because most people find that a poor way to spend their time. Every militia has their players who do it. Minmatar had sasawong. Amarr has Cynthia Nezmor, Gallente has you and several others in the militia who have said they have plexing alts out with no intent to fight. So this is not just a problem with gallente alone. Its a problem with the whole mechanic. I even set up alt account to plex. I made great progress but after a while it got really boring, and I decided there were better things to do with my time.
If you think about it you might understand why Crosi says this:
Crosi Wesdo wrote: Last time i was on i could only raise 11 people to go fight a 60 man squid force + potentially 40 squid friendly russian pies. Perhaps an element of burnout along side some fracturing of unified comms with the gallente in the eastern warzone contributed. ...
If faction war occupancy was really great fun I don't think that would happen. Hell I could play eve every night for years if it involved great pvp. People get burned out because its not all that.
11 guys for your side? 60 guys for the enemy? Do you think this is enough interest? I think those numbers are pathetic for a game that has 500,000 subscriptions and can often get over 1,000 players involved in fights. Forget about the posts on the forums. Just open your eyes and you can see the apathy for this game yourself.
You can keep denying that the heavy role alts have in plexing is the cause of this extreme apathy. We can disagree because I think it is. But then I ask you what causes this apathy? Even when gallente were taking all the systems the numbers were not great.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1358
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Posted - 2014.09.15 18:52:00 -
[19] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Cearain wrote:It wasn't "one guy" it was one alt. That alt captured more plexes than his main. That is the problem. No matter how people want to try to obfuscate net vp for your side is how you make systems vulnerable. My cyno alts lit more cynos than my main, doesnt make cynos broken.
If you think lighting cynos is something you should do with your main then it would be broken. I think winning fw occupancy (and in particular taking plexes) is something that should be done on a main/pvp account and not so dependant on alts.
This is where we fundamentally disagree. You say well throw away alts are most often used to light cynos, so why not have throw away alts capture most plexes. I see the latter as something that should involve pvp.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: Incidentally, the cyno alts had a larger roll in us taking the warzone than deplexing alts. We could have had a million alts deplxing but that would not have achieved the clean sweep.
I agree with the person who said too many people speak in terms of absolutes. I am not saying main pvp characters did nothing. But if gallente had no alts plexing for them they would be lucky to hit tier 2 and probably would be wiped out. The game is way too dependant on alt plexing.
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
So you want timer roll backs and intel, which, in your own words will do nothing to fix the problem described above. Finally we DO agree on something.
OPlexing is almost dead THIS is what timer rollbacks was intended to be useful against but CCP opted for a much more effective change. Dplexing alts prevent a slow pendulum of unfocussed contestation and encourages group effort. Im sorry fella, perhaps in an MMO a single person shouldnt expect be able to influence eve type occupancy.
I never said intel or adding rollbacks would do nothing to change the current game of rabbit plexing for the win. I gave plenty of reasons how it would help tip the scales against that behavior. You just ignore those reasons.
I also disagree that faction war should be like null sec. Which means basically if you can't get a big enough blob in a single system long enough to take a system then there is pretty much nothing you can do.
That is the key flaw in null sec. There is no need to duplicate the problem in fw because you have a flawed idea of what an mmo should be. IMO Every player should be able to influence occupancy in a fun and engaging way regardless of whether their militia currently has the largest blob. Of course, more players of equal pvp ability/resources should have more influence. But there is no need to make fw revolve around the blob as much as null sec.
For the above reason I disagree that that oplexing is so different than dplexing.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1358
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Posted - 2014.09.16 13:17:00 -
[20] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:But if gallente had no alts plexing for them they would be lucky to hit tier 2 and probably would be wiped out.
Really? Based on what? You think Caldari without plexing alts would be roflstomping Gallente?
XG
Look at what I wrote and then look at what you wrote. It was only one sentence but you still got it wrong. Really? Right back at you.
The question is what effect did the gallente alts have on your taking all systems. (Its not a childish game of "the caldari are worse!" "No the gallente are worse!") Crosi and others claim they had very little effect. And others have said we are using too many absolutes. I agree. Its not all plexing alts. But I think its pretty clear that without them instead of capturing all systems gallente would be lucky to hit tier 2.
Do you dispute that if Gallente had no plexing alts they would have been lucky to hit tier 2? Yes of course Gallente would be overrun by the plexing alts of Caldari and Amarr if they don't get plexing alts of their own. That is why I don't blame the players I blame the mechanics that make plexing alts so influential.
BTW: I love reading those who went along with your 180 degree misrepresentation of what I wrote and whine about it. Reading skills are apparently scarce.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1358
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Posted - 2014.09.16 14:19:00 -
[21] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Cearain,
Without plexing alts the Caldari would be completely crushed constantly. Not only would we be tier2, we would probably be Tier3 almost constantly.
Where did I say otherwise? I never said anything about what would happen if Caldari had no plexing alts.
It will help if you read what I wrote, and not what XG claims I wrote. I said "if gallente had no alts plexing for them they would be lucky to hit tier 2 and probably would be wiped out." I never said anything about what would happen if Caldari alts were removed.
Again the issue is how important were the gallente alts in this last campaign. A few posters said they weren't that important. They were.
You and XG and a few others just reinterpret what I wrote to be the typical bickering we see on the forums where each militia blames the other for having alts or farmers or whatever. Thats not what I said, and is not my point. The problem is all the militias are forced to have alts rabbit plexing if they want to win the occupancy war. This is boring game play and its why so few people care who wins the occupancy war.
The problem is the mechanics that make these rabbit alts so effective. (timer rolbacks and better intel is the solution) The problem is not one militia or the other. The players are just playing according to the mechanics. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1358
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Posted - 2014.09.16 14:44:00 -
[22] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:I see, you are talking about removing alts from one side while keeping them for the other :p
Yes I am saying that rabbit plexing is key to the occupancy war. If you try to fight without them you are doomed to failure. The other side will use them and the current mechanics are such that they have a huge impact on the war.
Some people said the gallente plexing alts were not that important during their last push. In order to determine how important something is, consider what would happen if it were removed. I think they were very important and without the gallente plexing alts you would be lucky to hit tier 2. Now that you understand what I wrote, do you agree?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1358
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Posted - 2014.09.16 15:04:00 -
[23] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Nope, I still disagree. The Caldari took too long to actively attack backwater systems and then were not persistent enough when they ran into active resistance.
Ok we disagree. I am confident that if the gallente had no alts plexing they would be sitting at tier 1 - at least most of the time. The alts from the amarr and caldari would overwhelm them. (I should clarify that I mean if gallente had no alts plexing for them in the caldari/gallente front. That is, no minmatar plexing for them either.)
I think the Caldari would have been more persistent in the back waters if they did not find that their plexing work was undone by defensive plexing alts as soon as they leave. Gallente pvpers would not be willing or able to put up enough active resistance to cover the warzone.
But anyway how much do we disagree?
Do you think Gallente would have taken all the systems without any alts? What tier do you think Gallente would be sitting at if they had no alts plexing for them? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1358
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Posted - 2014.09.16 16:20:00 -
[24] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:We still would have taken the entire warzone. However, you would be seeing systems get flipped back faster.
The changes that were made to rat tanks/respawn made a huge difference in how much rabbit plexers can affect systems that are already under your control. The shaping of the warzone that was done right before the change hit seems to have worked out well.
Are you saying you think gallente could have gained and held the entire warzone for at least one downtime without any plexing alts helping you?
So it would only be pvp mains that would d-plex and o-plex all the gains the other alts and mains made?
Certainly we saw a lower amount of offensive plexing after Kronos. But even now we see caldari getting 100,000 vp per weak. And that does not even include the amarr alts that would be plexing in that area at tier 2! Given that one of XGs alts had more vp than he did(and we don't know how many dplexing alts he has) its likely that most of a militias vp is coming from alts. So we can see that gallente probably would have been getting about half the vp. (if we include amarr plexers whatever that value is we would see they were getting considerably less than half.) Even to say half the vp is due to fw mains is overly generous since many of the plexing alts are players who don't even have their main in faction war.
If one side is getting half the vp over time they won't take all the systems. If you want to say well we already had a large percent of the systems, thanks to our alts before kronos ok. But that is still relying on the alts.
Bottom line is that (barring some huge null sec alliance coming in) in the long term no militia can hope to fight and win the occupancy war unless they resort to alts for rabbit plexing. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1358
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Posted - 2014.09.16 21:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:Do you think Gallente would have taken all the systems without any alts? What tier do you think Gallente would be sitting at if they had no alts plexing for them? Whenever the effect of alts are minimized we take the entire warzone.
You didn't answer the question. The reason you didn't answer the question is because you are too wrapped up in silly arguments about your militia being better than the other militia.
The issue to what extent rabbits alts have on the occupancy war - not quibbling about which militia has more alts.
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:
Are you saying you think gallente could have gained and held the entire warzone for at least one downtime without any plexing alts helping you?
If the other side didn't have any plexing alts... Yes.
Again you keep wanting to point fingers at the other side instead of answering the question.
The question is: under the current mechanics if Gallente did not have plexing alts would they be able to take all the systems? Of course the other side would have plexing alts like they do now. Certain players have been trying to claim the gallente alts were not that important for the gallente victory etc.
I am putting that in perspective and saying what should not be controversial to anyone familiar with the occupancy war. That is if Gallente did not have plexing alts (or minmatar alts) in thier front they would be sitting at tier one and lucky to hit tier 2 on occasion.
Do you agree? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1358
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Posted - 2014.09.17 01:35:00 -
[26] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Cerain, I'll make this as simple as possible. If VPs are tied to just running timers --> you can get VP while AFK, if nobody shows up to disrupt your efforts. If VPs are also tied to doing something (such as, for example, killing a pretty tanky and re-spawning rat) --> you basically can't get VP AFK. I think that, yes, we all agree that AFK gameplay is uncool and should be discouraged. Under the old system, you could get both offensive and defensive VPs while AFK. Under the new system, you can only gain defensive VPs while AFK. Big improvement, in almost everyone's opinion. Next step to make you happy: add rats also to de-plex (I'll let you come up with a mechanic for that). But the real point is: whatever the mechanics, the militia that adapts more and whines less will always win, even against superior numbers. Hint: that would be us
Just making plexing that is not done afk is not where I am setting the bar. Just because you have to be in a chair staring at the screen does not mean it's fun game play. The faction war occupancy game can easily be more fun and exciting than that, and ccp has indicated they will do the things to make it that way.
Ideally there should not be a need to have any npcs. Faction war should not be a carebear race to see who can kill the most red crosses. The players should defend the plexes. CCP is likely thinking the same way as they have greatly reduced the influence of npcs over the years. I think they would love it if there was pvp fighting in every plex so there would be no more need for npcs there.
The problem is players do not have sufficient intel tools to defend against people who want to rabbit plex. Chase them out and they will just go a system or 2 over and start another plex. Also without timer rollbacks even if we could easilly find exactly where people are plexing they would still potentially make gains.
CCP has indicated they intend to address both issues by giving us better intel tools and timer rollbacks . However these sorts of fixes are not as easy as giving a rat more tank or having it deliver fewer dps. So I think we received Kronos not as some thought that fw is going to be fixed but rather as a sort of easy to do stop gap. I do think players need to continue to give ccp input that these changes are still needed or it is easy for them to put it off. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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