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Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
53
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Posted - 2014.08.29 02:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
Can items that are manufactured be flagged as not being reprocessable? Hopefully...
Please add Rookie Ship BPO's to the game (or perhaps make them inventable from shuttles?)
Edit :: They're fun little ships, but much too underutilized. I blame this on them being a bit of a pain in the chutzpah to acquire. So, yes, please, Rookie Ship BPO's or inventable BPC's? End Edit |
Yishna Strone
The Desolate Order Brave Collective
5
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Posted - 2014.08.29 05:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
Why would you need to manufacture rookie ships when you can simply undock in a capsule and redock again to get one for free? |
Jur Tissant
Unreal Darkness
197
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Posted - 2014.08.29 05:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
As stated a rookie ship is super easy to acquire. They aren't underutilized because they're hard to get, they're just useless in most circumstances. Rookie ships are for new players just learning how to play the game, and for players who have just gotten blown up and need a quick hull. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
13
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Posted - 2014.08.29 09:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
Jur Tissant wrote:As stated a rookie ship is super easy to acquire. They aren't underutilized because they're hard to get, they're just useless in most circumstances. Rookie ships are for new players just learning how to play the game, and for players who have just gotten blown up and need a quick hull.
and cynos don't forget cynos |
Anthar Thebess
677
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Posted - 2014.08.29 11:09:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: and cynos don't forget cynos
Yes this will end on this - produce large amount cheep rookie ships, and T1 expanders.
Support Needed : Jump Fuel Consumption Support Needed : Faction Crystal Changes |
Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
68
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Posted - 2014.08.29 12:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
Not sure if you're serious or just trolling forum on a quiet friday afternoon...?
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Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
257
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Posted - 2014.08.29 12:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
Summer Isle wrote:Can items that are manufactured be flagged as not being reprocessable? Hopefully...
Please add Rookie Ship BPO's to the game (or perhaps make them inventable from shuttles?)
Edit :: They're fun little ships, but much too underutilized. I blame this on them being a bit of a pain in the chutzpah to acquire. So, yes, please, Rookie Ship BPO's or inventable BPC's? End Edit
1. You can get new rookie ships for free, no one would ever manufacture them, except for free, but then again see to the beginning of this sentence.
2. No one sane would spend ISK and valuable datacores on something they can get for free, see above.
If you're trolling, good one, you got me. |
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
53
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 14:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
Owen Levanth wrote:1. You can get new rookie ships for free, no one would ever manufacture them, except for free, but then again see to the beginning of this sentence. 2. No one sane would spend ISK and valuable datacores on something they can get for free, see above. If you're trolling, good one, you got me. I'm actually being serious. I enjoy messing around with Rookie Ships (though the other three of them need a bit of a buff to compare to the Velator).
In response to everyone who has said "Nobody would ever manufacture them!" Consider this: Originally, Rookie Ships were not on the market. CCP believed that nobody would ever want to purchase a Rookie Ship.
Jita and Amarr tell a different story, though, based on the last 365 days (please note that I'll be removing outliers over 1m ISK, but will be leaving the 0.01 ISK):
Jita
Velator: Total Purchased: 50,219. Avg. Price: 13,542.63. Outliers Remove: 3 (ranging from 7m to 39m) Impairor: Total Purchased: 37,978. Avg. Price: 9,538.79. Outliers Removed: 6 (ranging from 1m to 1.2b [*1]). Ibis: Total Purchased: 173,468 [*2]. Avg. Price: 6,897.26. Outliers Removed: 0. Reaper: Total purchased: 26,893. Avg. Price: 12,529.58. Outliers Removed: 3 (ranging from 1m to 4.2m).
Amarr
Velator: Total purchased: 12,688. Avg. Price: 10,252.33. Outliers Removed: 1 (priced at 85m). Impairor: Total purchased: 52,928. Avg. Price: 12,305.31. Outliers Removed: 10 (ranging from 1.5m to 620m). Ibis: Total Purchased: 14,494. Avg. Price: 13,174.39. Outliers Removed: 2 (ranging from 12m to 130m). Reaper: Total purchased: 7,289. Avg. Price: 15,570.43. Outliers Removed: 4 (ranging from 1.2m to 73m)
[*1] No, the 1.2b isn't a mistake. An Impairor was purchased for 1.18b on 2014.06.01. Another for 1.1b on 2014.07.27. [*2] I'm assuming this is because it's Jita, and a lot (most?) station-traders are Caldari. They don't need a ship, so when they log in, they sell their Rookie Ship to the highest order. If you only log in once a day, with the above average, 365 Rookie Ships will net you an extra 2.5m ISK. While that isn't a lot, it's still something.
There is indeed a market for Rookie Ships, as the average low and highs tended to be quite varied (I didn't include them in this post due to character limits), excluding only the Ibis in Jita (the above footnote-2 likely applies to this, as well).
Just as CCP never expected Rookie Ships to have volume on the market, and a good many players thought it was a pointless endevor, the ships do indeed have a market (likely for the aforementioned Cyno ships).
It is of my opinion that, just as the surprise market for Rookie Ships exists, despite them being available for free, so too would we see that BPO's for Rookie Ships would be utilized. No, it won't be as common as other ships and regular frigates, but there would still be a manufacturing interest in Rookie Ships. |
Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
356
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 15:45:00 -
[9] - Quote
Troll post or ... well, reasoning is flawed. If you take the over one bil scam/laundry buys even as consideration for your market evalutation then you got mental issues.
How adding BPOs for free ships will support making profit from manufacturing them and not flooding the market into nothingness is another logic black hole.
Good Job, though, I'll link it to the righ thread. Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
53
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 15:50:00 -
[10] - Quote
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:Troll post or ... well, reasoning is flawed. If you take the over one bil scam/laundry buys even as consideration for your market evalutation then you got mental issues.. ...how does removing all of the 1m+ purchases mean I'm taking them into consideration? I pointed out the 1.1b and 1.18b Impairor orders more out of humor than anything.
If we're taking out BPO's of useless items, though, then let's get rid of all T1 frequency crystal BPO's, excluding the two used for T2 invention. The BPO's are essentially useless since a decent number of crystals drop from missions, as well as that they never get used up unless you choose to reprocess or trash them, or lose them with your ship. |
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Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
356
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 16:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
Strawmen ... my observation still stands. Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
53
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 16:43:00 -
[12] - Quote
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:Strawmen ... my observation still stands. Considering I didn't set up an argument for the purpose of defeating it, it isn't a strawman. Regardless, let's leave the attacks be and have an intelligent discussion on this, shall we?
The simplest fact I can boil this all down to is this: There are worse BPO's in the game than Rookie Ship BPO's would be. The above mentioned T1 crystals (especially small crystals) are some of them, but in large number of instances, T1 module BPO's are only useful for their T2 invention capabilities.
Meta mods are in many cases superior to their T1 counterparts, while costing less on the market and, in some cases, having easier fitting requirements. Using a T1 mod over a Meta mod is thus often a sub-optimal choice. Prop mods are a perfect example of this. Blasters are another. As are Shield Extenders. As are armor plates. As are many mods.
In these cases, the only real use of a T1 BPO is for making copies for invention.
Rookie Ships have two primary purpose (in my own experiences) once a player is out of the starter systems: Cyno ships and beefier shuttles. I don't deny that the ability to dock up and get one for free would make manufacturing them unfeasible in the majority of cases, but in areas where stations are spread out (such as nulsec), both shuttles and Rookie Ships routinely sell for 100k or more, despite the fact that Shuttles can be sold profitably for 15k, and Rookie Ships are free.
They may not be the most useful BPO available, but they wouldn't be the least useful, either (a dubious honor I would bestow upon several of the small frequency crystals, who have no T2 counterpart, but are readily-dropped by mission rats). |
Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
356
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 17:07:00 -
[13] - Quote
*Sigh*
Summer Isle wrote:The simplest fact I can boil this all down to is this: .... The above mentioned T1 crystals (especially small crystals) are some of them, but in large number of instances.... THIS IS THE STRAWMAN ! ! !
Summer Isle wrote:There are worse BPO's in the game .... This is a terrible argument, can hardly consider it one. "Well, if its better then useless crap, it must be good ! "
The rest is absolutely meaningless, includes the Hume's Guillotine and delivers nothing.
I am not attacking you, I am attacking your reasoning, your observation and your conclusions, thereby your arguments. If that reflcts back on you in a bad way, it does so due to what you said, not what I noticed. If you rather like to feel hurt and ignore what has been said to pretend there is still something to discuss, fine, play your game alone. The King has fallen. Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
53
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 17:43:00 -
[14] - Quote
It's an accurate statement, not a strawman: The same logic being used above by pretty much everyone else in the thread can be applied to T1 crystals, many of which only have a value due to their reprocessing value. T1 crystal BPO's already exist in the game, as do every other ship and mod can be manufactured (though some exist only as BPC's), excluding meta items. I suppose we should just consider Rookie Ships to be "meta" ships? Even pirate and faction ships have BPC's.
(Perhaps that would be a better solution: Provide the BPC's on the cheap from Pend Insurance.)
If, as it may turn out, that is still considered a "strawman" then I apologize, but it's a fair and accurate rebuttal to absolutes that were being put out by others.
On such a thought, a few people have acknowledged that Rookie Ships have do have a use, even if a very limited one. This is something I appreciate. My initial response that gained your "strawman" claim was to those who have said that Rookie Ships are useless: examples were provided (both by myself and others) in cases where they are not, and then examples were provided of existing BPO's which truly are useless.
Also, insinuating someone is "mental" is definitely an attack. I should probably just let that one drop, though, since in that same statement was based on inaccurate reading.
Regarding saying it's "good" because it isn't the worst, I never once said that. Interesting? Yes. Potentially useful? Yes. Good? I never said that. I simply pointed out that there are BPO's already in the game that have, in a very literal sense, no actual use. This was something I pointed out due to others making claims that there is no use for Rookie Ship BPO's -- an inaccurate statement -- despite actually-useless BPO's already existing. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2493
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 17:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
Owen Levanth wrote: 1. You can get new rookie ships for free, no one would ever manufacture them, except for free, but then again see to the beginning of this sentence.
BPO's would make doing rookie ship fleets much easier. One could purchase a boatload of them in Jita and then ship them (with fittings) to wherever the "LOL OP" is going to happen. |
Feyrin
Unforeseen Consequences. The Unthinkables
24
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Posted - 2014.08.29 17:55:00 -
[16] - Quote
The addition of the pirate faction rookie ship BPCs as DED 1 & 2 loot drops is something I could approve of as a little something fun and different for new players. |
Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
357
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 18:17:00 -
[17] - Quote
K, I answer one more time ....
Since you already braught the same apple and oranges comparison to an unrelated argument a third time, I stand corrected with part of my assumption concerning your reasoning abilities, especially since I pointed it out twice already and you are still using it.
So here we go again- A commodity which can be limitless replicated can not be compared with a commodity which drops once in a while in regards to it's production capabilities or market profits when limitlesness and rarity are the foundation the argument (its necessity to be producable by a player through another limited and costly feature) is built upon and then state they are the same. If crystals would be replicatable limitless in the same fashion, then it could be a valid argument. - It is not even remotely.
Not even sure how you can compare an infinite free resource with one that has to be produced with effort and costs or found through effort.
Not to mention that losing a crystal only when the ship is destroyed or it is being reprocessed is in no way different the a rookie frig being destroyed or reprocessed. To say they are different in this regard is mental btw. And yes, you assumed rookie frigs are meant to be destroyed, while crystals are meant to last forever unless you make mistakes or choose to. Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
53
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 18:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote: Not even sure how you can compare an infinite free resource with one that has to be produced or found.
Rookie Ships can be replicated indefinitely. A T1 crystal, once acquired, will not wear out or be used up except under the same conditions that a Rookie Ship is lost: destruction through choice or at the business-end of someone's weapons.
I think it's less of an apples-to-oranges comparison, and more of a Gala Apple-to-Pink Lady apple comparison: Rookie Ships are infinite acquisition with one "use", whereas T1 crystals are infinite use with a single acquisition.
The end result is the same: You essentially have an infinite amount of what is generally considered to be a low-value item which, under the right circumstances, can be worth its ISK in gold (large T1 crystals on a structure shoot, cynoships). |
Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
357
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 18:42:00 -
[19] - Quote
Summer Isle wrote:Rookie Ships can be replicated indefinitely. A T1 crystal, once acquired, will not wear out or be used up except under the same conditions that a Rookie Ship is lost: destruction through choice or at the business-end of someone's weapons.
I think it's less of an apples-to-oranges comparison, and more of a Gala Apple-to-Pink Lady apple comparison: Rookie Ships are infinite acquisition with one "use", whereas T1 crystals are infinite use with a single acquisition.
The end result is the same: You essentially have an infinite amount of what is generally considered to be a low-value item which, under the right circumstances, can be worth its ISK in gold (large T1 crystals on a structure shoot, cynoships).
Stupidity knows no bounds.
Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
53
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 18:57:00 -
[20] - Quote
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:Stupidity knows no bounds. Likewise, mate. As much as I appreciate the bumps you've been giving me, my sanity would prefer you kindly bugger off ^_^ |
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2501
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 19:02:00 -
[21] - Quote
Everything in this game can be replicated infinitely (except for a few unique items). The cost with replicating rookie ships is TIME. TIME replicating these ships can be saved with BPO's. Hence, there will be a market for these ships since the users will pay isk to save them time to acquire them.
Just like any other item in this game. We pay isk for items so that can save TIME by not having to jump through several hoops to aquire items on our own. |
Jack Reafman
Sodex Solutions Warped Intentions
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 10:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
You know, I was sitting here thinking, "Adding BPOs for ships that you get every time you drive a capsule into a station is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard" I wasn't gonna say that though, because everyone else was making that point for me.
X Gallentius wrote:Everything in this game can be replicated infinitely (except for a few unique items). The cost with replicating rookie ships is TIME. TIME replicating these ships can be saved with BPO's. Hence, there will be a market for these ships since the users will pay isk to save them time to acquire them.
Just like any other item in this game. We pay isk for items so that can save TIME by not having to jump through several hoops to aquire items on our own.
Then that guy said that, and suddenly rookie ship BPOs make total sense.
Now I support this idea. |
Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
361
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 10:12:00 -
[23] - Quote
The difference being that all the time and effort involved to produce a ship is still longer then hit undock, eject, dock. Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
Jack Reafman
Sodex Solutions Warped Intentions
1
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Posted - 2014.08.30 10:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:The difference being that all the time and effort involved to produce a ship is still and always will longer then hit undock, eject into an Orca etc.., dock.
I can set sometihng up in industry to run a bunch of times faster than I can travel from station X to station Z, and unless you have an orca I can borrow I can't park one outside the station I'm in to run off my 100 copies of the rookie ship.
Not only that, but while you're docking and undocking to get your 100 rookie ships, I'll be off doing something else while the industry facilities do the work for me. Time saved, mind blown.
Maybe instead of reacting with an air of superiority and arrogance you should stop and think, I mean actually think instead of just looking for reasons to slap it down. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
683
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 11:16:00 -
[25] - Quote
The question why someone would buy something that is given out for free still has not been answered. Also, the only reason to build these ships is to scam and grief new players in beginner systems. And what EVE needs is just another item in the market that can be exploited for quick profits and bad intentions. |
Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
361
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 11:46:00 -
[26] - Quote
Jack Reafman wrote: I can set sometihng up in industry to run a bunch of times faster than I can travel from station X to station Z, and unless you have an orca I can borrow I can't park one outside the station I'm in to run off my 100 copies of the rookie ship....
Not correct, first, you don't have to travel form station x to z, you can do it at the same station and with a mate or an alt.
And you wasting industry slots for this, instead of producing something more profitable also defeats that argument, since it has not even been considered:
What else could you built instead of the limitless and free item ?! And from that profit you could actually just buy those items from people who in your opinion are silly enough to use said limitless and free feature to get them for you -¦-¦
The joke is still on you - and the OP.
Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
Jack Reafman
Sodex Solutions Warped Intentions
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 13:15:00 -
[27] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:The question why someone would buy something that is given out for free still has not been answered. Also, the only reason to build these ships is to scam and grief new players in beginner systems. And what EVE needs is just another item in the market that can be exploited for quick profits and bad intentions.
Sure it was, by this guy.
X Gallentius wrote:Everything in this game can be replicated infinitely (except for a few unique items). The cost with replicating rookie ships is TIME. TIME replicating these ships can be saved with BPO's. Hence, there will be a market for these ships since the users will pay isk to save them time to acquire them.
Just like any other item in this game. We pay isk for items so that can save TIME by not having to jump through several hoops to aquire items on our own.
Now to this...
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:Jack Reafman wrote: I can set sometihng up in industry to run a bunch of times faster than I can travel from station X to station Z, and unless you have an orca I can borrow I can't park one outside the station I'm in to run off my 100 copies of the rookie ship....
Not correct, first, you don't have to travel form station x to z, you can do it at the same station and with a mate or an alt. And you wasting industry slots for this, instead of producing something more profitable also defeats that argument, since it has not even been considered: What else could you built instead of the limitless and free item ?! And from that profit you could actually just buy those items from people who in your opinion are silly enough to use said limitless and free feature to get them for you -¦-¦The joke is still on you - and the OP.
And you're failing to consider something really kind of important.... New Players. If BPOs were put in for the rookie ships it's likely they'd be pretty low in material costs, and the BPOs themselves wouldn't be very high priced. New players, lacking the funds to purchase the really nice really profitable BPOs might still be able to afford BPOs for something like the rookie ships, and since the material costs would be low, they could make money off something they could afford to build. Using that as a stepping stone to bigger better things.
Do I see people who have been playing for 6 months still using their rookie ship bpos? No, by then they've acquired other more profitable bpos, or left the manufacturing business altogether in avor of something else. Do I see it as something that a newbie would find useful? Absolutely.
As for your doing it in the same station with a mate or alt, not every new player has met people right away, certainly not people they'd trust, and not all of them have alts yet.
Here's the big question though.... Would it take anything away from other players? No? Would it bring something to some players? Judging by the way people have responded to this thread, at least some of them think so. Would it unbalance and break the game? No. Would anyone be hurt by this? No.
Good, then there are no reasons to object to it, other than being brutishly pigheaded.
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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
684
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 13:44:00 -
[28] - Quote
Jack Reafman wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:The question why someone would buy something that is given out for free still has not been answered. Also, the only reason to build these ships is to scam and grief new players in beginner systems. And what EVE needs is just another item in the market that can be exploited for quick profits and bad intentions. Sure it was, by this guy. X Gallentius wrote:Everything in this game can be replicated infinitely (except for a few unique items). The cost with replicating rookie ships is TIME. TIME replicating these ships can be saved with BPO's. Hence, there will be a market for these ships since the users will pay isk to save them time to acquire them.
Just like any other item in this game. We pay isk for items so that can save TIME by not having to jump through several hoops to aquire items on our own.
That would be a very bad trade. Every use of rookie ships involves situations where you get one handed for free and instantly. Having to produce these before you could use them, would involve the transport of minerals to the Low sec or 00 sec stations and the wait time for production. If you get shot and dock in a station, you have a rookie ship there for you. If your cyno gets killed, you dock and have a rookie ship there for you. Henceforth, the question is certainly not answered why this would be good, improve on something, not to mention why I would wait for or buy this ship. The rookie ship is an insurance token, not something I should be required to build myself. What's the point of the insurance then? |
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
55
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 14:26:00 -
[29] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:That would be a very bad trade. Every use of rookie ships involves situations where you get one handed for free and instantly. Having to produce these before you could use them, would involve the transport of minerals to the Low sec or 00 sec stations and the wait time for production. If you get shot and dock in a station, you have a rookie ship there for you. If your cyno gets killed, you dock and have a rookie ship there for you. Henceforth, the question is certainly not answered why this would be good, improve on something, not to mention why I would wait for or buy this ship. The rookie ship is an insurance token, not something I should be required to build myself. What's the point of the insurance then? For the majority of people, there would indeed be no point in producing Rookie Ships. But for some people, being able to produce them would be faster and easier than having to buy them or dock / redock repeatedly.
Rookie Ship roams are a thing, and can be quite fun (seriously... getting a shiny kill with a bunch of Rookie Ships is not only pure greenery for your killboard, it's one of the most embarrassing losses on theirs).
As well, Rookie Ships and Shuttles are both used in nulsec as a means of transportation between stations when you don't want to move your normal ship (moving ships to a new station, for example) and don't want to fly back in your pod. I'm not exaggerating when stating, again, that Rookie Ships and Shuttles both regularly sell for 100k ISK or more in some nulsec areas where your next neighboring station may be several jumps out.
Rookie Ship BPO's or BPC's wouldn't be useful for everyone, and nobody is stating that they would or should be, nor is anyone stating that they should have to be built in lieu of being provide by insurance: they absolutely should and need to remain available through insurance, as the Rookie Ship you get is the way of getting back on your feet should the absolute worst possible disaster occur and you lose literally everything you have. Maybe not the best way, but it's a way. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2501
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 18:14:00 -
[30] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:That would be a very bad trade. The two cases where it would be valuable are: 1. Players want to do lol-fleets with tens or hundreds of rookie ships, or 2. Players want to prefit a bunch of disposable cyno ships up in station for their corporation.
There may be other cases. Emergent play and all that.
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