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Redus Taw
Valor Evolved Order of Allied Knights
2
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Posted - 2014.11.26 03:02:03 -
[1] - Quote
So I just ran a level 2 security mission when another player tried to duel me so I declined the duel and soon realized I wouldn't be able to complete the mission because the guy ran off with the "package" I needed to pick up. I do not believe the result of a PvE mission should be determined by another player. I had no problem with the player warping up to me and asking to duel, but why in a PvE mission did I lose the mission because of a player and not the environment? If I'm playing a security mission, why can somebody interfere with the objectives of a mission? PvE has objectives, complete them and beat the mission. PvP has an objective, kill the other guy and you live. I'm expecting one word answers like "sandbox". I understand its a sandbox, but I'm talking about specific details within the security mission being altered by a player to determine the outcome of the mission. Let me know what you guys think. Fly safe! |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
5287
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Posted - 2014.11.26 03:09:55 -
[2] - Quote
Everything is PvP. Then again missions have nearly no competitive component other than salvage thieves and similar creating content.
Sovereignty and Population
New Mining Mechanics
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Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
3742
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Posted - 2014.11.26 03:18:30 -
[3] - Quote
Missions are inherently competitive in other ways. If you successfully complete a level 4 mission for the Sisters of EVE, you might get 1m ISK and 8000 LP (worth about 12m-16m ISK today). But, you gaining those LP harms everyone else that owns them, as you will decrease the price of Sisters probe launchers and other goods.
Likewise you increase the price of whatever ammunition you happen to use.
So yes, everything is PVP in EVE.
Be glad you learned this lesson on a normal mission, not a storyline mission. Failing one of those is horrible, whereas failing a regular security mission is easily fixed by successfully completing 2-5 more of them.
Your rival may be willing to sell you the stolen goods for an appropriate ransom, if you wish to offer one to them, or you might be able to buy it from someone else via the contracts interface.
Chaos. Opportunity. Destruction. Excitement... Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
808
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Posted - 2014.11.26 04:01:38 -
[4] - Quote
Had you accepted his duel and won you would have had a 50/50 chance of finding the 'package' in his wreck. In this particular case by taking the mission item the individual in question was trying to make the fight look more attractive to you. Wait, it wasn't me, was it? I've been known to do that. |
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
2083
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Posted - 2014.11.26 04:05:09 -
[5] - Quote
Redus Taw wrote:and soon realized I wouldn't be able to complete the mission because the guy ran off with the "package" I needed to pick up. Whoah, people still do that? Awesome! I thought the CrimeWatch changes made that less desirable, good on that guy.
Redus Taw wrote:If I'm playing a security mission, why can somebody interfere with the objectives of a mission? Because this is EVE.
A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
17965
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Posted - 2014.11.26 04:05:50 -
[6] - Quote
Redus Taw wrote: PvE has objectives, complete them and beat the mission. PvP has an objective, kill the other guy and you live.
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
Oh I felt dirty quoting that.
PvP isn't always about killing. Its simply one player trying to outdo another player in some capacity. Pressing the undock button carries with it an implied consent to PvP in one form or another.
I sometimes laugh when an industrialist tells me "I don't want to PvP, I want to do industry and market.". Even mission runners are PvPing. What are you doing with your salvage? Did you sell it, or use it to make a rig? if you sold it, then you engaged in some order of pvp in the market. If you made a rig, if you sold it, see the previous statement, if you used it, then you just defeated a player who was trying to sell you one! Every aspect of this game is Player vs player. It might be hard to see at times, but it is there.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Vote Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10!
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Hal Morsh
Exodus Mining Corp
203
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Posted - 2014.11.26 04:21:11 -
[7] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:Had you accepted his duel and won you would have had a 50/50 chance of finding the 'package' in his wreck. In this particular case by taking the mission item the individual in question was trying to make the fight look more attractive to you. Wait, it wasn't me, was it? I've been known to do that.
More likely a 90% chance of a fight with an anti-fit ship in an unwinnable pvp + booster alts and backup logi/falcon alts.
Which is why I don't bother with pvp.. Unless I go to lowsec, which it usually finds me on the first gate, if not the second.
CCP - Outpost code is scary.
CCP Greyscale - Starbases - They need to look @#$%ing awesome, and people need to want them and
want to be around them and have them and use them and like them and want them and stuff.
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
809
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Posted - 2014.11.26 04:36:49 -
[8] - Quote
True, many folks do use such tactics. I'm usually running solo when flipping, but not always. The thing is that so long as you're suspect you're also open to attack from anyone as well. I've had a target engage, which excited me, and then pick up the batphone.... 8 minutes later the Ishtar lands on grid, drops geckos and wtfpwns me, which made sad. Likewise I occasionally see destroyers come racing to the rescue of besieged mission runners as well.
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Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
3748
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Posted - 2014.11.26 05:29:00 -
[9] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:True, many folks do use such tactics. I'm usually running solo when flipping, but not always. The thing is that so long as you're suspect you're also open to attack from anyone as well. I've had a target engage, which excited me, and then pick up the batphone.... 8 minutes later the Ishtar lands on grid, drops geckos and wtfpwns me, which made sad. Likewise I occasionally see destroyers come racing to the rescue of besieged mission runners as well.
I have surprised mission invaders by burning toward them in my Ishtar then warp scrambling and double webbing them.
It is possible to fit for both PVE and PVP at once.
Chaos. Opportunity. Destruction. Excitement... Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10
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Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
92
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Posted - 2014.11.26 06:01:08 -
[10] - Quote
Redus Taw wrote: So I just ran a level 2 security mission when another player tried to duel me so I declined the duel and soon realized I wouldn't be able to complete the mission because the guy ran off with the "package" I needed to pick up. I do not believe the result of a PvE mission should be determined by another player. I had no problem with the player warping up to me and asking to duel, but why in a PvE mission did I lose the mission because of a player and not the environment? If I'm playing a security mission, why can somebody interfere with the objectives of a mission? PvE has objectives, complete them and beat the mission. PvP has an objective, kill the other guy and you live. I'm expecting one word answers like "sandbox". I understand its a sandbox, but I'm talking about specific details within the security mission being altered by a player to determine the outcome of the mission. Let me know what you guys think. Fly safe!
Its called PvP. And everything in EvE is PvP.
You mission for example....your getting oppurtunity to get salvage and loot....to be used to to build things or to sell on the market......some loot might be ammo you wont have to buy later...the descions for all of that is PvP related depending what you do with it. LP you get, again PvP related in the terms of LP items to sell on market or better your mission effeciency......
What ever you do....even PVE activities....you affect yourself and everyone else one way or another.
Look up the butterfly effect trailer. |
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
810
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Posted - 2014.11.26 06:09:25 -
[11] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Omar Alharazaad wrote:True, many folks do use such tactics. I'm usually running solo when flipping, but not always. The thing is that so long as you're suspect you're also open to attack from anyone as well. I've had a target engage, which excited me, and then pick up the batphone.... 8 minutes later the Ishtar lands on grid, drops geckos and wtfpwns me, which made sad. Likewise I occasionally see destroyers come racing to the rescue of besieged mission runners as well.
I have surprised mission invaders by burning toward them in my Ishtar then warp scrambling and double webbing them. It is possible to fit for both PVE and PVP at once.
That's just mean. Of course trying to flip an Ishtar is either a very brave or very soft-headed thing to try to do. Of course, enough beer and the two become one and the same.
Ultimately the most effective weapon in a mission runner's arsenal for dealing with a flipper that they've actually engaged is friends. Having someone who's got your back when things go sideways is an invaluable asset to be honest, and can make all the difference when it comes to determining who's smoking wreck is left floating in space. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
3750
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Posted - 2014.11.26 06:35:43 -
[12] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:That's just mean. Of course trying to flip an Ishtar is either a very brave or very soft-headed thing to try to do. Of course, enough beer and the two become one and the same.
Noone accuses me of being a decent human being.
Or being decent. Or human.
Chaos. Opportunity. Destruction. Excitement... Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10
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Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
25049
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Posted - 2014.11.26 06:42:00 -
[13] - Quote
Hal Morsh wrote:falcon alts great way to lose a falcon and security status that is so precious to most residents of hisec.
Frostys Virpio > CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase
I like to gank it, gank it!
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
5713
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Posted - 2014.11.26 07:37:46 -
[14] - Quote
Redus Taw wrote: So I just ran a level 2 security mission when another player tried to duel me so I declined the duel and soon realized I wouldn't be able to complete the mission because the guy ran off with the "package" I needed to pick up. I do not believe the result of a PvE mission should be determined by another player. I had no problem with the player warping up to me and asking to duel, but why in a PvE mission did I lose the mission because of a player and not the environment? If I'm playing a security mission, why can somebody interfere with the objectives of a mission? PvE has objectives, complete them and beat the mission. PvP has an objective, kill the other guy and you live. I'm expecting one word answers like "sandbox". I understand its a sandbox, but I'm talking about specific details within the security mission being altered by a player to determine the outcome of the mission. Let me know what you guys think. Fly safe!
Well this is usually looked at as an interference of a mission which can be considered legitimate play (and I've been at this since 2006) but if you are a new player or are running the SoE epic arc you might consider then a petition because messing with new players is frowned upon by CCP. You might at the least get your mission reset.
As for the results of said PVe content having PVP influence, I can tell stories going way back. Here is a short list to spare everybody the "Back in My day" drama:
- Going into a mission room and blowing up a spawn trigger. - Loot stealing back in the day you were only PVP-flagged for the person you stole from and loot was worth stealing. - If there was a logi involved, suicide jam it to failcascade whoever the logi was helping - Trickery: hey bud can you rep my ship? Then attack the repper or someone else initiating a concord response on the repper too.
And so on..
Yes most of this is highsec "aggro fu", often considered the lowest form of PVP as it relies more on the victim lacking knowledge than anything else and the antagonist does this with the same amount of "relative safety" as their target (all the while complaining in the forums that their targets do everything in relative safety).
Much of the agro fu has been nerfed. - You can "blue the wrecks" meaning nobody gets flagged for stealing your loot and possible triggering a response from drones set on aggressive. - Anybody stealing loot now get a suspect flag and can be attacked by anybody. - There is now a safety button of three levels to prevent certain actions that get you deeper into a PVP or GCC "flag". - CCP has gotten a little more active in enforcing the "leave new players alone" directive (aka "Da Rules").
That the player had to challenge you to a duel was a last resort evidently lacking any aggro fu advantage from that point.
Go ahead and petition it at the least if you are dealing with a noob harvester if his name continues to appear on too many petitions he'll be dealt with.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Cancel Align NOW
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
261
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Posted - 2014.11.26 07:47:41 -
[15] - Quote
Stealing is fine. Stealing off a two month old player is not fine. Petition it. Accept the result of the petition either way and learn from the situation. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
527
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Posted - 2014.11.26 08:50:31 -
[16] - Quote
Cancel Align NOW wrote:Stealing is fine. Stealing off a two month old player is not fine. Petition it. Accept the result of the petition either way and learn from the situation. So how long has someone to play the game until they are allowed to experience the actual setting of the game which is a multiplayer sandbox?
the Code ALWAYS wins
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Cancel Align NOW
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
261
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Posted - 2014.11.26 09:12:03 -
[17] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Cancel Align NOW wrote:Stealing is fine. Stealing off a two month old player is not fine. Petition it. Accept the result of the petition either way and learn from the situation. So how long has someone to play the game until they are allowed to experience the actual setting of the game which is a multiplayer sandbox?
That depends on a number of variables that CCP can determine. I feel if player is still doing level 2 missions after two months and hasn't figured out that his pve is not on its own little server away from every one else then that player is struggling with :Eve Online: and does not deserve sand kicked in his/her face.
I get the feeling from the wording of the OP that this player is not actually a 2 month old player though. SO my suggestion is petition it and take it on the chin. |
Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
812
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Posted - 2014.11.26 09:13:34 -
[18] - Quote
If said two month old player is flying a faction battleship you bet your shiny forehead that I'll happily steal from them. And bump them. And generally give them as many reasons as possible to shoot at me. Their trial ended a while ago and I have no way of knowing whether they're truly new or an alt of a bittervet who's carebearing. Either way, they smell like money and if I crack open that pinata there's a solid chance some shiny stuff will fall out.... shiny stuff that could be my stuff if I win.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
7095
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Posted - 2014.11.26 09:54:41 -
[19] - Quote
Cancel Align NOW wrote:Stealing is fine. Stealing off a two month old player is not fine. Petition it. Accept the result of the petition either way and learn from the situation. Two months is a considerable time for an adult to be engaged in an activity and not to have something in the way of competency, Two hours or days I would agree with you but two months old is plenty. More pertinent to the situation however is one's behavior after the fact with nubies, I'll readily steal from and then shoot two week old toons but I'll do that only when I'm prepared to spend the next hour or so talking to them about how to eve,what just happened to them and have links to the eve uni wiki/tippias skill plan/any other useful resource handy. with people that new you should be keenly aware that you might well be the first person they intract with outside of a chatbox, does this mean you can't take there stuff and then shoot them in the face...absolutely not, it absolutely means you should not be a knob about it though.
people like space ship violence but they don't like arseholes ,
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
527
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Posted - 2014.11.26 10:04:59 -
[20] - Quote
Cancel Align NOW wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Cancel Align NOW wrote:Stealing is fine. Stealing off a two month old player is not fine. Petition it. Accept the result of the petition either way and learn from the situation. So how long has someone to play the game until they are allowed to experience the actual setting of the game which is a multiplayer sandbox? That depends on a number of variables that CCP can determine. I feel if player is still doing level 2 missions after two months and hasn't figured out that his pve is not on its own little server away from every one else then that player is struggling with :Eve Online: and does not deserve sand kicked in his/her face. I get the feeling from the wording of the OP that this player is not actually a 2 month old player though. SO my suggestion is petition it and take it on the chin. I am not sure why you think isolating new players for a few months will help them to understand that they are not isolated. It would probably have the completely opposite effect out of very obvious reasons.
the Code ALWAYS wins
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Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
3754
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Posted - 2014.11.26 10:15:20 -
[21] - Quote
Cancel Align NOW wrote:Stealing is fine. Stealing off a two month old player is not fine. Petition it. Accept the result of the petition either way and learn from the situation.
Stealing from a two month old character is fine.
Stealing from a two day old character in a rookie system is not.
The rules prohibit messing with mission runners in rookie systems (which normal missions don't send you into IIRC), on the outgates of those systems, and in the first system of the Sisters epic arc. Everywhere else is 100% fine.
Chaos. Opportunity. Destruction. Excitement... Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10
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Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
1618
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Posted - 2014.11.26 10:43:04 -
[22] - Quote
Sandbox.
Witty Image - Stream
Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
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Remiel Pollard
Layman's Terms. Don't Tell Me The Odds
5992
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Posted - 2014.11.26 11:08:28 -
[23] - Quote
Redus Taw wrote: I do not believe the result of a PvE mission should be determined by another player.
Your beliefs are beside the point. The fact is, EVE is a single-shard PVP game, entirely player influenced. Which means if another player decides to take your stuff, and you can't or won't defend it, you lose it. Player and community interaction is what EVE is about and what shapes it, and in your case, working exactly as intended. No amount of mission running has any influence on the game aside from the loot, salvage, and isk generated.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Lugh Crow-Slave
231
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Posted - 2014.11.26 11:10:16 -
[24] - Quote
PvE is a tool to drive PvP |
Remiel Pollard
Layman's Terms. Don't Tell Me The Odds
5992
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Posted - 2014.11.26 11:10:44 -
[25] - Quote
Karl Hobb wrote: Whoah, people still do that?
When I'm in highsec, it's virtually all I do. Probably won't be going back to highsec anymore though... we'll see.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Yarda Black
Militaris Industries Northern Coalition.
459
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Posted - 2014.11.26 11:28:05 -
[26] - Quote
OP: The guy messing with lvl2 missionrunners has a bigger problem than you. Trust me. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
5544
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Posted - 2014.11.26 13:23:05 -
[27] - Quote
PvE and PvP - it's like peanut butter and chocolate... two great tastes that go great together!
Except PvE doesn't really taste all that great without the PvP, much like peanut butter, so you really gotta mix them together.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
818
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Posted - 2014.11.26 13:33:58 -
[28] - Quote
PVE without the PVP is guv'ment issue peanut butter. That's why it tastes so stale. I love it when local lights up after I've been doing my thing. It's not about attention on me so much as suddenly everyone in the system is aware that other people are out there and doing things, sometimes AWFUL things. Sometimes it's abuse, more often than not that's when the light hearted banter starts up. People start interacting, even if half of it is snark. In a system where local stays silent for hours on end, to some degree I consider this reward enough. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
21592
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Posted - 2014.11.26 13:40:42 -
[29] - Quote
Yarda Black wrote:OP: The guy messing with lvl2 missionrunners has a bigger problem than you. Trust me. Depends, if it's a fellow newbie who's joined the dark side, where they have cookies, then more power to them. If it's someone like Ralph or Omar they're not in it for tears; they're willing and able to help newbies out with advice on ships, tactics, what they can do, out of game resources etc.
"Remember, as a non-combatant, your best tank is being elsewhere." ~ Abrazzar
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
821
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Posted - 2014.11.26 13:46:28 -
[30] - Quote
It's sad but true. Oftentimes after a flip I spend a hefty chunk of time explaining not only what just happened to my hapless, but also how to avoid it happening in the future. If they're really curious I will happily explain to them how to do it to their fellow man. Of course this is entirely dependent upon the attitude of the owner of the recent explosion. If all I get are mewling fits of profanity and rampant butthurt, I already know that it's not worth my time to try.
I edited out a nasty comment about miners. I'm sorry, I know you're not all nasty tempered, anti-social vitriol spewing neckbears. It was mean and I'm sorry... and if you happen to be just that, I'm sure the New Order will be along sometime in the future to annoy you far more than I ever could. |
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