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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
Logan Xerxes
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.22 08:02:00 -
[421]
I'm caldari to the core, but even I'm concerned waht these changes mean for the minnies. I'd hate for a quater of all ship desgins to be completely boned by this.
"Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu |
Kolhell
Minmatar CAD Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.22 08:05:00 -
[422]
Originally by: Zeroskills
Originally by: Tuxford Ship hitpoint increase, about 50% for tech 1 and about 25% on tech 2. A bit more on battlecruises/command ships and destroyers/interdictors
I understand the motivation behind the 50% HP increase. While the other changes are all correctly classified as "tweaks" (scalpel work), I worry that the HP increase is surgery by samurai sword.
While more HP will result in longer combat duration, this change will have trickle down impact on all aspects of PvP balance:
- Significant nerf to alpha-strike dependant weapons (especially artillery)
- Significant nerf to alpha-strike dependant ships (especially destroyers)
- Significant nerf to cap dependant weapons (especially Amarr)
- Significant nerf to heavy ammo use weapons (especially BS-size; especially autocannons)
- Significant nerf to cap booster-reliant builds
- Significant buff to nos/neuts (longer combat = increased likelihood of bleeding target dry)
- Significant nerf to small gang/hit-and-run operations (50%+ more time for the blob to counter)
- Moderate nerf to offensive PvP ops generally (logistical problems due to 50%+ increase in required ammo/cap charges)
- Moderate nerf to smaller ships (same lock time + longer combat = higher likelihood of getting nosed/webbed/worn down by light drones)
- Moderate nerf to active tanking (i.e. cap use > cap recharge)
- Moderate nerf to aggro timer (i.e. tank damage until one can jump/dock)
- Moderate nerf to warp bubbles (more time to slow boat to station/gate)
- Slight buff to close combat ships (less damage taken during approach as % of total HP)
- Upsets current balance between "gank" vs. "tank"
- Upsets current balance between weapon types
- No significant change to fleet combat (focused fire from 15 BSes will still one-volley the primary target; only change, post-patch, is that 33.3% more guns will successfully activate before the target pops)
- Very significant changes to small gang combat (specifically, changes that further amplify the advantage of superior numbers)
I agree that, all else equal, longer combat is a good thing. However, this is hardly an "all else equal" scenario. My greatest fear is the next year will be spent trying to fix the unintended consequences of this 50% HP increase.
In spite of all the "nerf/boost" posts on these forums, EVE's PvP is generally very well balanced. This unique balance is more important than a 50% increase in combat duration. Please do not let this change go live--it will break that balance.
Regards, Zeroskills[SUN] www.guildofsun.com
how are people not getting more upset about this?! this is even going to affect you silly missile users
------------------------- bury the hatchet |
VFR ViLLaN
Solidline Enterprise Kith of Venal
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Posted - 2006.10.22 08:45:00 -
[423]
I have to say that I very rarely post on these forums, I think that for the most part CCP do a pretty good job and don't need me adding to the list of moans.
However I think that the 50% hp/plate/extender increase sucks. This is a BAD idea.
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LUKEC
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.22 09:02:00 -
[424]
Edited by: LUKEC on 22/10/2006 09:02:04
Originally by: Mila Prestoc
Originally by: Gabriel Karade I don't buy the whole 'people will bring more friends' argument.
If someone has four buddies to bring along and gank someone with they would do that already. The change doesn't magically bring extra pilots and ships to the tableā
Maybe not, but if you try and solo someone in a fair fight the extra hp/fight time means they can quite easily call for friends, especially if its in enemy territory.
A recent nice video (or two) called Revenge of ??? shows him attacking NPC'ers in there territory and how often people called for help only for the help to arrive to late or just in time... with the hp boost any decent setup pilot can call for help and have mates come from jumps away not just in the same system.
Hence instead of going for some small/solo work your only real option to kill stuff is to take as many people as you can.
I've never seen npcer tank for more than 40s(vs 1 bs that is). Maybe in angel regions they tank a bit better, but in sansha/gurista regions it's possible to 3-4 volley them, especially if they armor tank with no explo/kin hardener.
Proposed hp changes will only increase ganking.
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rodgerd
Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.22 09:20:00 -
[425]
Originally by: Grey Area
Originally by: Tuxford Warp Core Stabilizers now give penalty to targeting range and scan resolution, about 50% for tech 1
So all those pirates who like to gank mission runners get their wish. Fitting even a single warp core scrambler "just in case" is now totally out of bounds for a level 4 mission runner. It's too much of a penalty.
Just run missions in highsec, and then watch as all the piwates howling for WCS to be drummed out of the game show up en mass and demand anything better than level 1s be shifted to lowsec.
Unintended consequences FTW. Not the opinions of my corp or my alliance. |
Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.10.22 09:59:00 -
[426]
Originally by: Tuxford
Ship hitpoint increase, about 50% for tech 1 and about 25% on tech 2. A bit more on battlecruises/command ships and destroyers/interdictors
Could you decrease capacitor booster volume by 50% too, please?
Or my blasterthron is going to be a very unhappy bunny.
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.22 11:07:00 -
[427]
Originally by: Zeroskills
Originally by: Tuxford Ship hitpoint increase, about 50% for tech 1 and about 25% on tech 2. A bit more on battlecruises/command ships and destroyers/interdictors
While more HP will result in longer combat duration, this change will have trickle down impact on all aspects of PvP balance:
- Significant nerf to alpha-strike dependants
- Significant nerf to cap dependant weapons (especially Amarr and Gallente)
- Significant nerf to heavy ammo use weapons (especially BS-size; especially autocannons)
- Significant nerf to cap booster-reliant builds
- Significant buff to nos/neuts (longer combat = increased likelihood of bleeding target dry)
- Significant nerf to small gang/hit-and-run operations (50%+ more time for the blob to counter)
- Moderate nerf to offensive PvP ops generally (logistical problems due to 50%+ increase in required ammo/cap charges)
- Moderate nerf to smaller ships (same lock time + longer combat = higher likelihood of getting nosed/webbed/worn down by light drones)
- Moderate nerf to active tanking (i.e. cap use > cap recharge)
- Moderate nerf to aggro timer (i.e. tank damage until one can jump/dock)
- Moderate nerf to warp bubbles (more time to slow boat to station/gate)
- Slight buff to close combat ships (less damage taken during approach as % of total HP)
- Upsets current balance between "gank" vs. "tank"
- Upsets current balance between weapon types
- No significant change to fleet combat (focused fire from 15 BSes will still one-volley the primary target; only change, post-patch, is that 33.3% more guns will successfully activate before the target pops)
Regards, Zeroskills[SUN]
Wow. That's a long list. I shortened it down a bit to conserve characters, I hope you don't mind? Also, I added one or two words (in red) that you forgot. Here's a few comments:
- Don't forget that Gallente and Raildari use just as much capacitor per second as Amarr (or near enough that there's no point trying to distinguish the two).
- 50% more time in EVE terms isn't all that much, you know. In most cases this still mean combat time is less than a minute.
- It isn't a nerf to warp-bubbles at all. A bubble camp has to have webbifiers, and honestly slowboating in less than 100m/s is going to get you killed however you look at it. Tux can raise the HPs by 5,000% and it won't change bubble camps at all.
- There is no balance between "gank" and "tank".
- Please explain how it can upset balance between weapon types?
I do believe that you are rather heavily over exaggregating the impact that merely 50% more hit points is going to have on the game. On a minor note, small fleet combat isn't going to be affected by this any more than what you already listed - it would have been a significantly different matter in case he'd have boosted resistances or active tanks. Additionally, I do not know whether you realize it, but longer combat times are greatly needed and there's only one way to do that without seriously destroying game balance between damage and tank - and that is through hit points, which belongs to neither.
But there are some valid points: * Nosferatus (not Neuts, since they drain your own cap) will become much more important than they already are * Autocannon ammo usage needs to approach artillery more for a homogeneous ammo usage in the same category weapons * The longer combats, the longer the aggression timers need to be. It is already bordering on too short with 30 seconds. * Something really needs be done about docking games. - What am I listening to? |
Grey Area
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.22 11:12:00 -
[428]
Originally by: Audri Fisher
Originally by: Grey Area So if the problem with warp core stabs was cowardly snipers, why not try this for size instead;
1. Halve range of all long range weapons 2. Give all ships a "sniper mode"...a button you press which doubles your range - but stops your engines 3. Entering and/or leaving sniper mode takes 60 seconds 4. WCS get put back to normal
This introduces the REAL penalty that a sniper should pay...if he gets caught at close range, he's in trouble. It would give sniper-hunter teams a chance to kill snipers in the 60 second window before they came out of sniper mode.
but of course, since the REAL reason behind the cries for a WCS nerf is to make it easier for pirates to gank carebears, this will never happen.
60 seconds? this guarantees you WILL get caught.
The timing could be argued over forever and a day...snipers will always say it's too long of course. the point was to GIVE snipers a vulnerability whereas currently they have none. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once." |
Grey Area
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.22 11:19:00 -
[429]
Originally by: Epsilon 1 If you die in that scenario WCS no WCS, you deserve it. Oh and did i say that NPCing with stabs is as *** as it gets. This fix has only PVP in mind.
The whine of the pirate yet again. They want us to watch local while missioning, and always stay aligned with the gate so we can warp out. In other words, the responsibility for not being ganked relies entirely with the victim. Heaven forbid that a pirate should actually have to WORK for his kill...they want us all on a plate with an apple stuffed in our mouths.
I assume it's *** to fit warp core stabs on a mission because we might actually get away?
"This fix has only PVP in mind"...yes you're right. PVE'ers get the shaft yet again. I should be used to it by now, but it's another twist of the dagger every time. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once." |
Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.10.22 11:26:00 -
[430]
Originally by: Ginger Magician Well interesting. Have you given a single thought to a whole class of profession called piracy? If u cant fit stabs when sniping then sniping is no more and the increase in hps of ships just means that ships will be unkillable anyway. These changes seem to indicate only gank squads can ever possibly win in combat in future and the death of solo pvp. I suggest u give these changes some more thought because as it stands u have just ruined the gameplay of at least 10000 subscribers.
Funny, because I solo PvP without stabs very happily.
To be perfectly honest, I wouldnt even count 200km 4-stab gate ganking as true PvP anyway. It is mind numbing. You'll have to come in close to fight now. Have fun.
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sallyr
Gallente Mithril Inc Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.22 11:49:00 -
[431]
i think the point about stabs is that they havent been nerfed!
any1 who still wants to travel through low sec safely can! as they have no interest in fighting.
however people who are really actualy do need to PVP! rather then PVPU55Y!
(\_/) (O.o) (> <) Resistance is Futile Find us here |
Ewa Quillam
Caldari mega mining corporation Astral Wolves
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Posted - 2006.10.22 11:51:00 -
[432]
Originally by: Malvahne
Originally by: Ewa Quillam Hello,
First of all, I'm please to see all these changes. I believe the game will become more interesting and balanced from now on.
(Not a flame attempt but) Have you ever flown any other ship then Caldari? If not please do and tell me then that this will be a fair balacing. If you do have lots of experiance with the other races ships then please tell me and my brother Amarrians on how to adept to the up comming changes when we are already pritty strugling as it is
Ps: Find all the typo's and get a free cookie!
I very much enjoy the wide array of shuttles that Eve provide. No, I only fly caldari, later on I'll train for gallente. But I realy **** my self sometimes when I ran out of cap charges cause the rails have eaten all of them and I can't get than hungry mwd running again and I can't tank, cause I can't fit all that on my ship...
So, get a life people, we don't even know if this will be implemented as it is... changes do occur and some of us might not like them.
Now, I'd like to return the question... have u ever flown anything else but amarr? If u do, u might still be halfway ready for this change that's so scarry...
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M4sterm1nd
DarkStar 1 Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.22 11:58:00 -
[433]
LOVE the WCS nerf, but I trust barges will be exempt from the nerf? Would be a little inconvenient if your lockrange became so short that by the time you can lock a roid, it would be blocking your dronebay doors.
While I find the notion of every minmatar sniper out there likely jumping off a roof at the thought of never being able to instagib and smack n00bs again, never pestering people with pointless pwnage from diseased ranges again, and never feeling like a real man again, I'm still curious why no dev has answered the one question on virtually everyone's lips:
What is to become of artillery as a valid weapon choice? To be fair, the only reason I want to know is that noone's answering it. With all the daytime soap hysterics you find in here, you'd almost believe the poor little artillery has been neutered into a civvyrail/snowball hybrid. Sure, with 8 stabs your firing & lockrange drops to like four inches and locking even a dreadnought would take a hour and a half, but then DONT STAB or DONT SNIPE Cant say I dont look forward to finding out what this'll do for me Ferox
Headline one-liners: Suicidal Teen Kills Twin By Mistake!
(My sig left after Eldo called her fat)
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Xeno Xandovar
Minmatar Encina Technologies Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.10.22 12:56:00 -
[434]
Warp core stab update is propable best thing you have done ever. *thumbs up*
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Wrayeth
Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.10.22 13:12:00 -
[435]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 22/10/2006 13:12:45 Well, I've tried to be supportive of the changes, but this update (hitpoint increases) completely swung me around the other way. This change will make EVE unplayable as a Minmatar battleship pilot. It will also destroy solo and small gang PvP.
Tux, I keep telling everyone that personal attacks won't get them anywhere with the devs, since you folks are human beings just like the rest of us. When harangued, you're less likely to help the person than when spoken to in a calm, reasoned manner.
That said, for the first time in a while I find myself wanting to scream and shout and flame regarding a change to EVE. Instead, I'll just say "no". It will ruin small-scale PvP and spell the death of everything Minmatar. It will also make active tanks worthless, and Minmatar have several active shield tankers with dedicated bonuses (sleipnir, etc.).
I hope the hitpoint boost is reconsidered, otherwise I fear my subscription will be in serious jeopardy. This isn't a threat; it's just the only way I have of changing things: voting with my pocketbook. -Wrayeth
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
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Ejderdisi
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Posted - 2006.10.22 13:30:00 -
[436]
1 more problem : a stealth bomber is designed by CCP as an alpha strike frig killer for very short duration fights(not even fights - it should be and designed as a u-boat against un escorted merchant ships unless in numbers so it's not designed for fair fights at the first place).
Now frigs are resistant to alpha strikes.
Buff my bomber!!! Give my role back or make me another or..
Ok u get the point :)
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Merc Avenger
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Posted - 2006.10.22 13:37:00 -
[437]
Well To me it seems a boost to the 4 races in the precisely the opposit of order that was needed. Caldari (flavor of the year) and gets the most, minmatar (the kicked underdog) gets a the least.
Is the HP boost just intended to make eve more of a single race for the ease of balancing? Are we all supposed to fly caldari, except when for the few who RP a bit? Is it because the new factional warfare will be caldari against the rest?
To me it seems like CCP wants to give bigger and bigger incentives to get everyone to change Caldari, question is why they would destroy the wonderfull diversity by making a favored race and keep giving giving it favorit treatment. As more and more players change to Caldari the possiblity of actually balancing eve out grows dimmer, as CCP will have to upset a incrasing part of their customers the longer they wait.
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Phrixus Zephyr
Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2006.10.22 15:09:00 -
[438]
So how exactly are you supposed to kill lone target's on your own in a hostile system before his friend's come and wtfpwn you?
50% increase is abit over the top.
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Warlord Zinji
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Posted - 2006.10.22 15:26:00 -
[439]
jesus u guys cry alot |
LaCoHa
Caldari Deep Space Navy Caldari Deep Space Industral
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Posted - 2006.10.22 15:45:00 -
[440]
Originally by: Warlord Zinji jesus u guys cry alot
Yeah that is true - but with these proposed changes, it is not without warrant. Especially since they basically sprung these on us in the last week.
This is something they kept quiet because they knew it was not in the general publics best interest.
I am a conspiracy theorist though. :)
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Spikum
Gallente Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.22 15:55:00 -
[441]
-When increasing the hitpoints the should be a Cap increase aswell, otherwise it will really depend on cap who will win and who not? Minmatar ftw?
-Nos will become more important.
-Stealbombers suck incredible now
-Give smartbombs some love and remove micro smarties :p
-Improve cap boosters. They still need to much cargo
-Warpcorestabs need a hitpoint penalty!
-Why does an armor plate needs CPU i dont get the point?
-Add a skillbonus for shuttles :p
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sjrenzer
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Posted - 2006.10.22 16:37:00 -
[442]
I agree with most issues coming from the hp-boost (especially the uselessness of alpha), however, we all seem to forget everbody get's the boost:
you'll have to do more damage, but the other guy will run out of ammo too. Everybody will have to carry more ammo, missiles, cap boosters, ... so it's not like: omg my ship is useless, it's like: omg every ship is useless
Now to make a point, I believe Tuxford wants to boost logistics with this patch (it's the only reason I can think off) because now you'll need ships to carry around extra ammo.
I also believe the Amarr gets a little boost because they're the only race capable of fielding ships with weapons + tank that can run forever (using natural cap regen) while other ships will sooner or later run out of weapons...
Ofcourse, when compared to the general consequenses: cargo load, alpha, Amarr EM-damage, hit & run and whatever, the hp-boost would need some little thinking...
just my $0.02 |
Dryxonedes Sae
Whine Distillery
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Posted - 2006.10.22 17:46:00 -
[443]
After having only read 4 pages of this after the initial I can see why the minnies are so mad... I don't fly the meccano + duct tape jobs myself, but do know from flying alongside them that this is gonna fubar their objective to nowhereville. Surely the idea of further upping the damage mod and lengthening the rate of fire? Similar for anything that's designed as an alpha strike boat...
Like i said, i'm sure it's been brought up in one post somewhere, but seriously, give the minnies this one **** Where's the problem? It's called natural selection - The bottom of the ****ing food chain. -Denis Leary |
MECTO
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Posted - 2006.10.22 20:23:00 -
[444]
Originally by: Spikum
-Warpcorestabs need a hitpoint penalty!
20% reduce to shield per WCS fitted?
Originally by: Kusotarre I am awesome in fleets, everyone on teamspeak trembles in fear as my battlecry blasts through their headphones, heralding a new era of target-less randomosity.
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Master OlavPancrazio
Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.22 20:29:00 -
[445]
Originally by: Grey Area
Originally by: Epsilon 1 If you die in that scenario WCS no WCS, you deserve it. Oh and did i say that NPCing with stabs is as *** as it gets. This fix has only PVP in mind.
The whine of the pirate yet again. They want us to watch local while missioning, and always stay aligned with the gate so we can warp out. In other words, the responsibility for not being ganked relies entirely with the victim. Heaven forbid that a pirate should actually have to WORK for his kill...they want us all on a plate with an apple stuffed in our mouths.
I assume it's *** to fit warp core stabs on a mission because we might actually get away?
"This fix has only PVP in mind"...yes you're right. PVE'ers get the shaft yet again. I should be used to it by now, but it's another twist of the dagger every time.
Tell me, do you think before you post?
What is work considered to you, relative to now. Have you ever pirated? DO you even know how much work it currently takes?
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Soraya Silvermoon
Never'where
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Posted - 2006.10.22 21:15:00 -
[446]
Seriously tux..
To make the hp change would require a rework of the whole game allmost.
Now I wount say that would be a bad thing. Sure it could be fun actually..
But why not focus on things that are broken before changing things that arent (maby not optimal but working)
Logistics ships are a good example. Then the poses n sovereignity system. Then TII ammo. And there is plenty of other things.
I might not see the whole picture as your the one with knowledge about how things will become in this game but still. I think my point is valid..
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Capt Rob
Minmatar Black Omega Security The OSS
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Posted - 2006.10.22 21:25:00 -
[447]
from my view, the majority of the changes purposed here are just as a quick fix but will just end up creating problems. overall they seem to not have been well thought
Signature removed due to inappropriate content. -Ivan K |
Phillip Hamamoto
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Posted - 2006.10.22 22:08:00 -
[448]
Edited by: Phillip Hamamoto on 22/10/2006 22:08:46 Edited by: Phillip Hamamoto on 22/10/2006 22:08:16 I'm not a pirate and I confess that I'm worried about the balance between the the pvp defense stuff and the pvp attack stuff, to not favor too much these pirates that make, with all respect to the persons playing this type of game, the life difficult to all. I'm asking to the dev team analyse carefully this issue before place it. Wanna unbalance too much towards the pirates become unhelpless the people that is not doing this type of the game? Will have an approppriate defense/tatics about it? Have a tatic to become this new thing usefulness? I ask to the dev team consider a 50%/50% chance to attack/defense teams. I ask this. This type of thing I repeat can unbalance to the pirates's side in a unfair way. We must have the right to have a counterattack.
Respectfully, Phillip Hamamoto
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Malvahne
Amarr Wulong Mercenaries
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Posted - 2006.10.22 22:42:00 -
[449]
Originally by: Ewa Quillam
Originally by: Malvahne
Originally by: Ewa Quillam Hello,
First of all, I'm please to see all these changes. I believe the game will become more interesting and balanced from now on.
(Not a flame attempt but) Have you ever flown any other ship then Caldari? If not please do and tell me then that this will be a fair balacing. If you do have lots of experiance with the other races ships then please tell me and my brother Amarrians on how to adept to the up comming changes when we are already pritty strugling as it is
Ps: Find all the typo's and get a free cookie!
I very much enjoy the wide array of shuttles that Eve provide. No, I only fly caldari, later on I'll train for gallente. But I realy **** my self sometimes when I ran out of cap charges cause the rails have eaten all of them and I can't get than hungry mwd running again and I can't tank, cause I can't fit all that on my ship...
So, get a life people, we don't even know if this will be implemented as it is... changes do occur and some of us might not like them.
Now, I'd like to return the question... have u ever flown anything else but amarr? If u do, u might still be halfway ready for this change that's so scarry...
I give you props for flying a rail boat as caldari not standerd cookie cutter raven. How ever as you stated you do not have a tank on your boat as you cant fit it. I do have to have a tank becous i cant aford the luxery of auto regenerating my armour (I do not mean this bitter. I will never expect armour to regenerate.) but it is what it is.
I have experiance in flying other races at the moment i'm split in Gallente and Amarr skills. Besides these i also got 'Caldari cruiser-ish' experiance on a old char (But nothing fancy)
Perhaps i go out of line here to say this but; I think that every one here who has experiance in multible race ships can savely admit that this will _not_ effect all races equaly fair.
my to cents..
edit; typo's!
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.10.22 23:24:00 -
[450]
just FYI, Tux. With the new boosted armor & plates. You can easily push a BS to armor strength of the amount of a dreadnaught. 5000hp base @ tempest = 7500hp after patch 3350ho for 1600mm steel plate II = 5000hp after patch 6x 1600mm steelplate in the lows = 30,000 hp + base hp = 37,500 hp
... without taken any skills/implants/gang assist into account.
Why, I question you, did I skill for dreadnaught/carrier if I can now have the same HP with a BS which is a more agile and versatile ship? Naglfar has 34375hp base just for comparison.
regards
c0rn1 x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
-V- Diplomat -V- High Council Member
Life's a waste of time ... |
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