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Weirda
Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.31 05:08:00 -
[1]
Wolf - superior Arty ship Jag - superior Auto ship
Please switch the optimal and falloff bonus for these two. Weirda beg you! It is long time coming, and you know you want it done!
For love of all that is good, for love of Matari!
__ Weirda Join QOTSA Now Stealth Bomber Tweaks |
Unfamed II
FinFleet Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.31 05:11:00 -
[2]
Have to agree with Weirda on this one. Seriously, it's not that great being an amarr, is it?
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Mortuus
Minmatar Oblivion's Gate
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Posted - 2006.10.31 05:26:00 -
[3]
Hell no!
I love my AC wolf with Barrage and my arty Jag.
I'm serious.
ex-Occassus Republica <3 |
Tortilla Smasher
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Posted - 2006.10.31 05:51:00 -
[4]
/signed
Show em some love tux!
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Weirda
Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.31 05:53:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Mortuus Hell no!
I love my AC wolf with Barrage and my arty Jag.
I'm serious.
please explain why you would not love the opposite? Weirda have AF 5 and been flying since they come out... unless you are talking pve - you desire make no sense. __ Weirda Join QOTSA Now Stealth Bomber Tweaks |
Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.31 06:13:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Weirda Wolf - superior Arty ship Jag - superior Auto ship
Please switch the optimal and falloff bonus for these two. Weirda beg you! It is long time coming, and you know you want it done!
For love of all that is good, for love of Matari!
omg yes! please tux! /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed x10000
_______________________________ It's great not being Amarr, isn't it?
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OrangeAfroMan
Minmatar Suffoco Noctis Atrocitas
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Posted - 2006.10.31 06:20:00 -
[7]
Edited by: OrangeAfroMan on 31/10/2006 06:20:29 To quote myself on a recent thread:
"Yeah the Optimal bonus should go on the Brutor/Boundless Creations ship (Wolf) ala Muninn and the Falloff bonus go to the Sebiestor/Thukker ship (Jag) ala Vagabond."
Please do this for us Tuxford, Having good/great speed with autos means nothing if you don't have good range.
P.S Have a good day man
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Mortuus
Minmatar Oblivion's Gate
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Posted - 2006.10.31 07:01:00 -
[8]
The Jaguar I fly with AC's can either catch and kill an inty, or get away through some tricky manuevering, the Falloff bonus isn't as needed. With Artillery you can run 3x gyro, and stil have tackling mods and a decent tank.
I run my Wolf with AC's as a slower anti-tackler ship or high DPS in a Frig gang. She does great, hitting with Barrage from long range until I can close in.
My Arty Wolf just takes advantage of the long falloff to use Close range high damage ammos out to longer ranges.
All of my setups work very well for PvP, many a pilot in the north can probably attest to that.
Personally, I find the Jaguar to be the all around better ship, and I love it how it is. And in gangs my Wolf excels with damage dealing.
ex-Occassus Republica <3 |
OrangeAfroMan
Minmatar Suffoco Noctis Atrocitas
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Posted - 2006.10.31 07:11:00 -
[9]
Edited by: OrangeAfroMan on 31/10/2006 07:11:53
Originally by: Mortuus The Jaguar I fly with AC's can either catch and kill an inty, or get away through some tricky manuevering, the Falloff bonus isn't as needed. With Artillery you can run 3x gyro, and stil have tackling mods and a decent tank.
I run my Wolf with AC's as a slower anti-tackler ship or high DPS in a Frig gang. She does great, hitting with Barrage from long range until I can close in.
My Arty Wolf just takes advantage of the long falloff to use Close range high damage ammos out to longer ranges.
All of my setups work very well for PvP, many a pilot in the north can probably attest to that.
Personally, I find the Jaguar to be the all around better ship, and I love it how it is. And in gangs my Wolf excels with damage dealing.
You don't fight many cruisers in your Jag do you? Its a tossup whether they have web/nos or not (most do), and trust me, getting within web/nos range is a death wish. Webs are why speed is pointless unless you can attack from > 10km.
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Kolhell
Minmatar CAD Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.31 07:39:00 -
[10]
/signed
then again if they stop giving us worthless bonuses on our ships matari might end up overpowered :/
------------------------- bury the hatchet |
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Arian Snow
Minmatar Megalomaniacs at Arms
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Posted - 2006.10.31 07:47:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Arian Snow on 31/10/2006 07:47:29 /signed I support the idea! 'its only natural' !
Op have my support! ... its a bit problematic though minnie bonuses are not really meant to make too much sense I dont remember I dont recall I dont have memory of anything at all! |
slothe
Caldari Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.31 08:01:00 -
[12]
yeah does make sense so /signed. however im sure it wont be top of anyones list to rectify :/
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Mortuus
Minmatar Oblivion's Gate
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Posted - 2006.10.31 08:02:00 -
[13]
Which of course, is why you don't go after cruisers solo, hiding at 13k firing with barrage won't save you.
Now, if you toss in a Rupture to help you, or a second AF, cruisers other than those made to specifically kill frigates die pretty well. So do Domi's and other BS's that don't have precision missles.
Pretty much any well fit cruiser can toast a single AF, thats not in doubt. I do however find the bonuses compliment the natural tendencies of these ships though.
I've yet to have any trouble, and have yet to lose either frigate in a situation that even approaches an even fight. Usually it involves jumping into a bad place, like IMK (I love you guys) where they have multiple bubbles, a few tacklers, an interdictor, some sniping BS and a couple carriers just to make sure of things.
ex-Occassus Republica <3 |
Weirda
Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.31 08:56:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Weirda on 31/10/2006 08:59:24 @Mortuus
Weirda obviously have different view. Wolf is a 'turret' it sits, and reach out and kill thing. The Jag, with speed and low mass is in face. You reasoning make no sense, basically you saying 'you don't need' extra range on jag, so you would rather that it have a bonus that does nothing? Do you realize that Assault Ship are already short one bonus anyways (resistance?). Wolf is superiour Arty platform, and the bonus are reversed.
In a perfect world, Weirda would like Wolf to get optimal in place of the 'fake' resistance bonus, and give the jag something more interesting there. But this isn't a perfect world, and they feel 3 bonus are enough for Assault Ships.
You arument, while noble, hold absolutely no water. Weirda IS first and formost Assault Ship pilot. Many may or may not know battles have fought in the past to get these ship recognized, and tweaked by DEV. Am just trying to correct one of the final oversite.
EDIT: and why the hell would you need a cruiser to help you Jag fight a cruiser? If you are 'feared in the north' certainly a Jag alone, or a Cruiser alone is enough for a single cruiser?
Furthermore, this thread is a Request for change, not a request for discussion. If you believe that there is nothing wrong, start thread to keep things the same. Please - you only threaten to derail this thread. __ Weirda Join QOTSA Now Stealth Bomber Tweaks |
slothe
Caldari Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.31 09:08:00 -
[15]
i dont think mortuus is by definition is wrong, he simply holds the minority view.
on any logical approach the jaguar is an ac ship and the wolf an arty ship for obvious reasons. however it doesnt stop others like mortuus being different.
however as i hold the majority view i agree with the op
oh and a jaguar can easily kill a cruiser solo. ive killed a ferox and prophecy in mine too ( they maybe were badly fitted but they still died).
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Mortuus
Minmatar Oblivion's Gate
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Posted - 2006.10.31 09:18:00 -
[16]
The reason is that ANY well setup cruiser can kill an AF, its not hard, they don't have the tank or the firepower, let alone cap to outslug a cruiser thats set up to fight other cruisers and small ships.
I've killed BS, cruisers, BC's, Inties, AF's, and pretty much anything short of a Cap ship solo in my AF. That does not mean they were setup correctly, nor does it mean they were skilled pilots.
So while my views may be different, they are valid, and come from experience. A Wolf with arties is easier to kill with a ceptor than a Jag setup with arties, sure it deals slightly more damage but you know what, those mids more than make up for it, especially solo or in a small gang. The Wolf has one purpose, DPS, and that is fulfilled by ignoring tackling gear and going for as much damage as possible.
While I'm sure you are good at flying AFs, and I know all about your passive tanks, I've found that allowing both ships to fulfill both roles makes them exceptionally lethal, and unpredictable.
They work for me, I'm slightly outside the box, and they both kick the hell out of the ships they are made to kill. Feel free to take your AC Jag up against a good Vexor, Thorax, Ruppy, Maller though.
ex-Occassus Republica <3 |
Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2006.10.31 09:25:00 -
[17]
I find both ships hard to fit with Artillery anyway - they just don't have the PG/CPU for anything decent.
For example, for the Wolf I came up with this tight fitting, but 1 high slot is empty:
4 x 280mm T2 Sensor Booster II Named Webber SAR II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control I
This leaves me with 0.12 PG and 1.25 CPU currently, the only way to use the 5th high slot seems to be by going with 250mm guns...
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Old Geeza
The Retirement Home
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Posted - 2006.10.31 09:28:00 -
[18]
Signed!!!!!!!
_______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues! |
slothe
Caldari Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.31 09:29:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Mortuus Feel free to take your AC Jag up against a good Vexor, Thorax, Ruppy, Maller though.
i think (if im right) that the op is suggesting that the falloff bonus is switched to the jag, making it possible (i think) for the jaguar to fly outside web range. if this is the case, and is possible, a jaguar with a faction web could potentially kill a skilled pilot flying those cruisers.
thats the point of the thread ( i think) and you seem to be confirming the ops points as valid ny stating as is the jaguar is vulnerable.
or maybe im totally wrong.
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Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.31 09:35:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Pan Crastus For example, for the Wolf I came up with this tight fitting, but 1 high slot is empty:
4 x 280mm T2 Sensor Booster II Named Webber SAR II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control I
It would give me tears of joy if something like this was possible on a retribution with medium beams... I wouldn't even care about the empty high slot.
I don't begrudge this to you Minmatar pilots tho, this is how it should be. And I like the Wolf and Jaguar myself.
/signed for Weirda's proposal to switch their boni
Forsch Defender of the empire
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Mortuus
Minmatar Oblivion's Gate
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Posted - 2006.10.31 09:36:00 -
[21]
Why shouldn't it be vulnerable? You can just as easily run a 20km and arty while keeping out of range.
I'm not looking for my ships to become the equivalent of a light missle crow, taking no real skill to fly. I prefer having to think and fly intelligently. Saying a Jag with a Faction web can kill a Vexor is silly anyway, why not include a nice multispec on that Vexor and see how things work out.
The point is, you have to think about your ship, the enemies ship, and your own weaknesses. Taking away weaknesses makes the game less interesting.
ex-Occassus Republica <3 |
s1n1ster m1n1ster
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Posted - 2006.10.31 09:38:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Mortuus Taking away weaknesses makes the game less interesting.
/Signed.
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SmokeMeAKipper
System-Lords E N I G M A
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Posted - 2006.10.31 09:52:00 -
[23]
go on Tux, I'll send you some cookies - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast - - - - - - - - - - - - |
Critta
Black Omega Security The OSS
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Posted - 2006.10.31 10:04:00 -
[24]
/signed
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Gripen
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2006.10.31 10:29:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Weirda Wolf - superior Arty ship
LOL. You introduce yourself as good AF pilot while saying such wrong things. Wolf can't be artillery ship because it don't have enough mid-slots for it.
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Al Haquis
Minmatar Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.31 10:50:00 -
[26]
Do Not touch the Jaguar.
It¦s fine as it is and yes i use artys on it and yes i pvp and yes i am good at it.
With love from Al Haquis
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Nemain
Amarr Obsidian Asylum
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Posted - 2006.10.31 11:32:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Gripen
Originally by: Weirda Wolf - superior Arty ship
LOL. You introduce yourself as good AF pilot while saying such wrong things. Wolf can't be artillery ship because it don't have enough mid-slots for it.
mmm, I don't know about you but the wolf always seemed more of an artillery ship than AC one to me, with jag being the opposite. The jag is faster, lighter and has more mids to web, scramble or tank etc, meaning it's a far more capable ship up close in AC range. The wolf on the other hand lacks the mids, speed and mass in comparrison to work at close range, yet it provides a decent basis for artillery with more turret slots and more lows (just needs a tracking comp and ab/sensor booster in mids, and damage and minor tank in lows). To me Jag=Vaga, Wolf=Muninn, just my personal views and how I use both ships. So that being the case, in my caser at least it does seem the the range bonus' are the wrong way around.
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Slan Traveller
SteelVipers YouWhat
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Posted - 2006.10.31 11:35:00 -
[28]
/signed
It's one more of these Typhoon shield/armor hp issues, where Minmatar appear gimped by whim.
Sic parvis magna |
Ms Freak
Amarr NCN Corp
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Posted - 2006.10.31 11:56:00 -
[29]
/Signed
My other char would LOVE this change!!
Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Pan Crastus For example, for the Wolf I came up with this tight fitting, but 1 high slot is empty:
4 x 280mm T2 Sensor Booster II Named Webber SAR II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control I
It would give me tears of joy if something like this was possible on a retribution with medium beams... I wouldn't even care about the empty high slot.
I don't begrudge this to you Minmatar pilots tho, this is how it should be. And I like the Wolf and Jaguar myself.
/signed for Weirda's proposal to switch their boni
Off topic i know but:
4 Medium Beam II (Aurora) Sensor Booster II 1 HS II 2 Tracking II CPU II Damage Control
Adv Weapon Upgrades 4 4TW
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Jirr or'Ron
Minmatar Exilis inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.31 12:32:00 -
[30]
/signed
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