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Nhjmoe Belvar
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2015.05.05 10:39:08 -
[1] - Quote
I guess i might be beating a dead horse here but since i couldnt find a recent thread about that i thought i create one.
I've been mainly an explorer in EVE for the last few years. I have started in Highsec and worked my way through lowsec, wormholes and into nullsec. I'm mostly doing exploration because i enjoy that the most (i even enjoyed loot-spew :P ) and i could easily make twice the isk/h if i did something else (so i'm not creating this thread to make me spacerich)
The disparity between relic and data sites is completly off the charts. Both take exactly the same amount of skill and the same amount of time, yet Data sites provide roughly 1/3 of the loot relic sites do. The greatest offender are the "red" containers. If you hack a relic container of the hardest difficulty you can easily recognize it from the loot. Sure sometimes RNGsus screws you over and you get T2 loot with low value. But still you can tell that this was a different type of container. You get value for doing a harder "hack" and in nullsec you quite often pull 30M+ Isk out of one container. If you get 5M+ from a Datacontainer you praise the lord and to get more than 30M you probably have to sacrifice your firstborn. In a Data-Site pretty much all Containers are the same, sure overall the value of the hard containers is slightly higher but by just looking at the loot you could never tell if it came from a green, yellow or red container. Supposedly this should be balanced by faction BPCs but they are pretty rare and mostly not very valuable either. I believe i got one really valuable BPC (faction tower BPC) in all my exploring and while that is nice it still leaves data sites at a fraction of the value you get from relic sites. And while i appreciate that the volume of datasite loot was decreased (eg datacores, faction materials) and that new loot (tradegoods) was added those changes didnt do much. The new tradegoods are worthless and no one cares that you can carry more faction materials now since those are worthless as well.
It has gone so far that a lot of explorers dont even bother scanning down data sites any more since you are better off looking for a relic site. I still do all sites but i gets more and more frustrating. Just today i pulled 28M isk out of 4 nullsec datasites...i wasnt even unhappy with that result because its okish for datasites, yet i probably would have pulled >100M isk if those would have been relic sites.
What needs to be done:
-Bring datasites loot value more in line with relic sites (if you need to lower relic value for an increase in data value, fine so be it) -"Red" datasitecontainers need to have loot that distinguishes them from the other containers (would be nice if the empty or "look you found 1 Carbon" containers would go too...at least for "red" containers) -Not really related to that topic but please make containers either unscanable or despawn faster. Finding cherry picked sites all the time isnt nice.
What this will hopefully accomplish: - A less frustrating and overall more stable experience for explorers. Everyone is fine with some RNG and the feeling of winning the lottery but a bit more consistency would be appreciated. - Datasites will no longer be the shunned stepchild of exploration
Sorry for my bad english and the venting... |
Klatus Doshu
Die Kreuzritter RAUMWAFFEn KOALITION
0
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Posted - 2015.05.05 12:12:28 -
[2] - Quote
I completly agree on you. So, why not adding faction ship/module BPCs to the data sites, of course at a low drop rate...would that not add some value to the data site? And it would fit to the lore.... |
Nafensoriel
Armored Apocalypse V.I.C.E
0
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Posted - 2015.05.05 22:32:19 -
[3] - Quote
The problem is less to do with value and more to do with a fundamental way supply and demand works.
Relic can supplies are very reflective of supply and demand and all salvage materials are moved in volumes which can create quite a significant level of value for the goods.
Datacores etc however... Well they are not consumed in nearly the same volume nor are they at the same demand levels. This is why data sites are generally lower isk per can. Additionally CCP really can't do much to fix this without making some pretty heavy changes to the volume of datacores needed for jobs and even if they made such changes the cost would eventually return to where it is.
That is the nature of supply and demand economics. CCP can't magically fix what isn't broken. |
Buoytender Bob
Ronin Exploration Mission and Mining
23
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Posted - 2015.05.06 01:36:41 -
[4] - Quote
The interesting thing for hi-sec explorers is that while both data and relic sites are worth far less than low and null ( as they should be,of course), in hi-sec the relic sites are near worthless with the data sites only slightly better. Both pale in comparison to combat sites where I've decided to spend most of my time. Exception,of course, are the sleeper sites which appear rarer and rarer as the weeks go on. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
248
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Posted - 2015.05.06 07:12:05 -
[5] - Quote
Nhjmoe Belvar wrote:-Not really related to that topic but please make containers either unscanable or despawn faster. Finding cherry picked sites all the time isnt nice. Despawn faster means there are more sites/more loot to inject into market = decrease value of the sites. Good move would be to place some items with NPC buy orders like in Sleepers Caches. It would remove some part supply and demand mechanism. Some items stolen from hisec corps etc like in mordu sites.
"...genre is a definition, the definition in itself must have boundaries, the boundaries act as barriers, and the barriers are like walls, like the walls of a prisonn++..."
The Good, The Bad and The Bantam
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March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1630
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Posted - 2015.05.06 11:06:45 -
[6] - Quote
Welcome to CCP's idea 'Every monkey should be able to do Exploration'. Result: every monkey does it. And when every monkey does it you cannot make it profitable because Eve Universe is open market with supply/demand laws. Take a look at every other over-supplied area (mining, regular high-sec corporations LP, some kinds of deadspace loot, etc...).
There was times when Exploration was a thing for dedicated players and they were making good ISK from it.
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy Caldari State
236
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Posted - 2015.05.06 11:43:14 -
[7] - Quote
Nhjmoe Belvar wrote:I guess i might be beating a dead horse here but since i couldnt find a recent thread about that i thought i create one.
I've been mainly an explorer in EVE for the last few years. I have started in Highsec and worked my way through lowsec, wormholes and into nullsec. I'm mostly doing exploration because i enjoy that the most (i even enjoyed loot-spew :P ) and i could easily make twice the isk/h if i did something else (so i'm not creating this thread to make me spacerich)
The disparity between relic and data sites is completly off the charts. Both take exactly the same amount of skill and the same amount of time, yet Data sites provide roughly 1/3 of the loot relic sites do. The greatest offender are the "red" containers. If you hack a relic container of the hardest difficulty you can easily recognize it from the loot. Sure sometimes RNGsus screws you over and you get T2 loot with low value. But still you can tell that this was a different type of container. You get value for doing a harder "hack" and in nullsec you quite often pull 30M+ Isk out of one container. If you get 5M+ from a Datacontainer you praise the lord and to get more than 30M you probably have to sacrifice your firstborn. In a Data-Site pretty much all Containers are the same, sure overall the value of the hard containers is slightly higher but by just looking at the loot you could never tell if it came from a green, yellow or red container. Supposedly this should be balanced by faction BPCs but they are pretty rare and mostly not very valuable either. I believe i got one really valuable BPC (faction tower BPC) in all my exploring and while that is nice it still leaves data sites at a fraction of the value you get from relic sites. And while i appreciate that the volume of datasite loot was decreased (eg datacores, faction materials) and that new loot (tradegoods) was added those changes didnt do much. The new tradegoods are worthless and no one cares that you can carry more faction materials now since those are worthless as well.
It has gone so far that a lot of explorers dont even bother scanning down data sites any more since you are better off looking for a relic site. I still do all sites but i gets more and more frustrating. Just today i pulled 28M isk out of 4 nullsec datasites...i wasnt even unhappy with that result because its okish for datasites, yet i probably would have pulled >100M isk if those would have been relic sites.
What needs to be done:
-Bring datasites loot value more in line with relic sites (if you need to lower relic value for an increase in data value, fine so be it) -"Red" datasitecontainers need to have loot that distinguishes them from the other containers (would be nice if the empty or "look you found 1 Carbon" containers would go too...at least for "red" containers) -Not really related to that topic but please make containers either unscanable or despawn faster. Finding cherry picked sites all the time isnt nice.
What this will hopefully accomplish: - A less frustrating and overall more stable experience for explorers. Everyone is fine with some RNG and the feeling of winning the lottery but a bit more consistency would be appreciated. - Datasites will no longer be the shunned stepchild of exploration
Sorry for my bad english and the venting... Data site loot table isn't the problem, the problem is demand for all items dropped in data sites is not high enough. In fact New Eden is probably hopelessly flooded with cheap data site garbage sitting in people's hangars that they never bothered moving to a hub. |
Nhjmoe Belvar
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2015.05.06 16:58:11 -
[8] - Quote
This isnt really a supply and demand issue though.... Sure i get it that the current dataloot market is oversaturated making that stuff not exactly valuable. Just the same could be saif for a lot of the T1 salvage loot you get in relics. However the same cant really be said for some of the T2 salvage loot from relic sites. So what exactly is the problem putting something in "red" datacontainers that is valuable and keeps a somewhat stable price because of consumption. I doesnt have to be datacores or decryptors which can already be found in datasites and are obv not in high enough demand. Put something in the "red" containers that makes them special just like the relic ones are. That you get basically the same loot from every single container and there is no "more rare" ressource is the problem (the current BPCs dont really count and the optimized decryptors arent in high enough demand to put them guaranteed in the "red" containers) You pretty much couldnt even tell if you looted a highsec or a nullsec site...this is just wrong. Datasites are missing the special "ooomph" that T2 loot is for relics.
Concerning the faster despawn of sites: I dont really believe that this would have a significant impact on market saturation. But if you want to be extra careful just add a timer for soonest respawn. So you wouldnt get more sites/time but you would get rid of empty sites hanging around. |
Nafensoriel
Armored Apocalypse V.I.C.E
0
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Posted - 2015.05.06 17:37:24 -
[9] - Quote
I dont think you understand the terms "free market" and "supply and demand".
Anything you add to those sites as possible loot will drop like a rock in value.
The ONLY reason relic cans and salvage goods maintain their value is the simple fact that they are consumed at incredible rates.. and even with that fact salvage prices have still cratered from where they used to be.
NOTHING is broken about the sites. This is directly a matter of over supply and adding crap to those cans just expands that over supply problem to other items. The sites are to easy and safe to buff without murdering markets. |
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy Caldari State
239
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Posted - 2015.05.06 18:03:51 -
[10] - Quote
Nhjmoe Belvar wrote: tldr: If supply an demand keep the current loot value low put something on the loottable that is valuable (thought after consumable for "stable" price)
No. Adjust existing industry so that currently existing data loot demand actually somewhat matches to supply.
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Nhjmoe Belvar
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2015.05.06 18:10:18 -
[11] - Quote
Nafensoriel wrote:I dont think you understand the terms "free market" and "supply and demand".
Anything you add to those sites as possible loot will drop like a rock in value.
The ONLY reason relic cans and salvage goods maintain their value is the simple fact that they are consumed at incredible rates.. and even with that fact salvage prices have still cratered from where they used to be.
NOTHING is broken about the sites. This is directly a matter of over supply and adding crap to those cans just expands that over supply problem to other items. The sites are to easy and safe to buff without murdering markets.
And you seem to be some guy who thinks using "supply&demand" and "free market" makes you some kind of genius. News flash, those concepts arent too hard to grasp,
Let me put it in words you seem to understand: I want "crap" added to the site which is consumed at incredible rates (to keep the value stable...you know supply&demand....look i used the magic words....acknowledge my genius). This might be stuff that didnt even exist before on the "free market" (there, magic again...) or it might be existing stuff which obv then needs a new outlet...
And the sites are broken since there is a vast difference in relic and data sites for the same demand in time and skill, and they are broken in the regard that all containers in data sites provide the same loot allthough they are not created equal.
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:Nhjmoe Belvar wrote: tldr: If supply an demand keep the current loot value low put something on the loottable that is valuable (thought after consumable for "stable" price)
No. Adjust existing industry so that currently existing data loot demand actually somewhat matches to supply.
This seems kinda hard though. For datacores sure. just by multiplying the current amount by an arbitrary number. For decryptors....i dont know if that would make sense flavor wise...or the would have been reworked. Besides this would probably ripple through big portions of the EVE-Market which seems kinda excessive....
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Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
736
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Posted - 2015.05.06 18:48:16 -
[12] - Quote
I kind of like the idea of moving the pirate ship BPCs to data sites. If they were made to be a rather rare drop of course. I've also always thought that the BPCs for ancillary shield/armor mods, MJDs, reactive hardeners, etc should come from data sites only. |
Nafensoriel
Armored Apocalypse V.I.C.E
1
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Posted - 2015.05.06 21:12:37 -
[13] - Quote
Ok then. Pick an independent branch of the market which is not represented heavily already besides datacores that can be moved into Data Sites. Oh yes... and you can't completely clusterfk that market by allowing all of those items to be freely and easily obtained in the massively over-farmed exploration sites.
Datacores are dirt cheap and data sites are useless because everyone and their brother runs every single site they run into and floods the market. Switching the containing goods to anything else just transfers the problem. As i mentioned before even T1/T2 salvage loot has seen pretty darn hefty price reductions thanks to the pathetically easy and safe exploration sites.
Seriously to make billions a week in nullsec exploration you need a covops cloak, probe launcher, and the ability to read a map.. That's it.. No corp, No sov, No friends.. In eve its almost less risk than highsec mining.
I will however handle one part of your argument for you. Partially because this kind of debate is healthy and partially because exploration does need some tweaking.
We have a mechanic in eve already to allow for extra "magic" income to be added to loot tables without touching the markets in any way whatsoever. Blue WH loot. Only sold to NPC buy orders. With the drifters lore arc just starting up data sites have the possibility to have these types of items added without it being functionally absurd. Downside.. for a profession that is already a Niagara sized isk faucet to the game... adding MORE value to it without added risk seems like a terrible idea. |
Iyokus Patrouette
Sudden Buggery Prolapse.
452
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Posted - 2015.05.06 22:40:56 -
[14] - Quote
So. sit cloaked in space, wait til local is clear of all neutrals/reds slither out of the shadows and proceed to hump relic/data sites, disappearing back into the cloaking shadows if/when local spikes, probably make more isk then you should given the over all low cost entry into the career not to mention the risk associated being low as well. Then complain on forums that not enough isk?
you guys make to much isk already, you don't need more from what you are doing.
---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----
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Nhjmoe Belvar
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2015.05.06 23:04:52 -
[15] - Quote
Ok lets go with the NPC idea since that is probably the easiest.
At the moment datasites contain techdata, it would make perfect sense for them to hold also strategic data concerning pirate operations. NPC-Corps would be willing to pay for that kind of intel. And with NPC buyorders there would be no problem keeping the prize stable or keeping the amount of isk created under control. Just add them to the red containers with a small chance to find them in other containers too.
I really dont see a problem with that creating too big of an isk faucet. First of all there are way bigger offenders compared to exploration. And you can still control the number of sites available quite easily (Number of spawns, respawn timers etc.)
I really dont agree that everyone is doing those datasites already. I find them aplenty, left alone by explorers. Sure they are "free" isk but they still take time to complete and at the moment you are better of spending said time finding something more valuable. It might be a problem that if datasites become more attractive the value of cores/decryps drops even more if that is even possible...
However i do agree that nullsec sites need to be tweaked in difficulty. They are way to easy to scan down, the should be moved more into the direction of sleeper caches. In addition the hacking should be slightly more difficult, i cant remember the last time i lost a container. Also the explosion for failing the hack twice might be tweaked to damage nearby ships, enough to kill an untanked Exploration-frig... Basically the hardest relic/datas should need a specialised char+ship....
And you dont make too much isk doing exploration... I could easily double my income while still flying only a frig and still needing no sov, corp or anything else. If you really wanna complain about easy isk look at incursions (harder to get into but 0 risk), look at fw (super easy isk flying a frig with barely a risk if you have half a clue) and look at the whole nullblock-circlejerk (the true carebear easy-iskmode) or the elitist WH bears who claim to have such a hard life..... |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
947
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Posted - 2015.05.07 03:28:35 -
[16] - Quote
All they need to do is make datacores less favorable to obtain from other sources, then make datacores the primary drop from data sites.
The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
248
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Posted - 2015.05.07 06:54:44 -
[17] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:All they need to do is make datacores less favorable to obtain from other sources, then make datacores the primary drop from data sites. CCP mentioned they want them to be "manufactured" by players.
17.04 was my "birthday". Two years of exploration, two years CCP try to make this sites usefull, no effect. Everytime they are doing tweaks sites become worse and worse.
"...genre is a definition, the definition in itself must have boundaries, the boundaries act as barriers, and the barriers are like walls, like the walls of a prisonn++..."
The Good, The Bad and The Bantam
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2287
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Posted - 2015.05.09 05:26:50 -
[18] - Quote
Oh good grief. All this handwaving about supply and demand and we're still missing the problem with data sites.
Look, demand is plenty high. Anyone who does invention on any scale devours datacores. The issue is that most datacores come from FW. FW dumps set the price and the trickle from data sites just go along with that.
If you want to boost data sites you either need to reduce the datacore flow from FW or introduce a valuable drop that is primarily price-set by the data site supply. |
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
608
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Posted - 2015.05.09 06:58:16 -
[19] - Quote
Geez, exploration went to **** when CCP made it so anyone can easily scan down sites, and changed the spawn mechanics of sites.
As has been said, market sets the price, quantity of people running data/relic sites is high, spawn rate of sites is high, random is random.
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March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1638
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Posted - 2015.05.09 22:04:20 -
[20] - Quote
Zhilia Mann wrote:Oh good grief. All this handwaving about supply and demand and we're still missing the problem with data sites.
Look, demand is plenty high. Anyone who does invention on any scale devours datacores. The issue is that most datacores come from FW. FW dumps set the price and the trickle from data sites just go along with that.
If you want to boost data sites you either need to reduce the datacore flow from FW or introduce a valuable drop that is primarily price-set by the data site supply. FW is 'holy cow' of CCP. They won't change anything there.
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
50463
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Posted - 2015.05.09 22:19:50 -
[21] - Quote
Zhilia Mann wrote:Oh good grief. All this handwaving about supply and demand and we're still missing the problem with data sites.
Look, demand is plenty high. Anyone who does invention on any scale devours datacores. The issue is that most datacores come from FW. FW dumps set the price and the trickle from data sites just go along with that.
If you want to boost data sites you either need to reduce the datacore flow from FW or introduce a valuable drop that is primarily price-set by the data site supply. Was gonna pretty much say the same thing myself.
Years ago CCP (Soundwave & Co.) tried to kill off various aspects of PvE content when they tried to remove in-game passive ISK generation under the guise of trying to boost Industry and Factional Warfare. This PvE content was available to everyone but was mainly being used by Mission Runners and Explorers. Supposedly Mission Runners and Explorers were destroying Mining, Invention and Manufacturing by doing Gun Mining (Loot Reprocessing) and manipulating the Market with Data Cores gained from R&D Agents / Exploration sites.
As for Data Cores and Data Sites : First CCP lowered the rate that R&D points accrued and also increased the cost of Data Cores from Research Agents. Then they decreased the spawn rate of Data Cores in Data (Radar) sites. Then in an attempt to boost Factional Warfare they made Data Cores available in Factional Warfare LP Stores at a ridiculously low price which in turn negatively affected the Market.
Data Cores should only be obtainable from R&D Agents and Exploration Data sites, not from Factional Warfare LP Stores.
As for Gun Mining : CCP replaced Meta 0 modules with Metal Scraps and reduced loot drop tables all across the board multiple times. There were other changes made as well but that's another topic altogether.
DMC
'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
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Telmat Khan
Perkone Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2015.05.09 23:45:33 -
[22] - Quote
My issue is the "High-Tech Arms" etc. loot - it's apparently been said that they're not useless but I'm willing to wager that by the time they become (if ever) useful, every explorer and their mother will have a huge stockpile. |
Ransu Asanari
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union Mordus Angels
226
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Posted - 2015.05.12 10:30:06 -
[23] - Quote
Glad to see others are still upset about the current state of Data Sites. Here is a feedback thread from Februrary (3 months ago!) and nothing has changed since then:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2w6ge1/phoebe_exploration_data_site_feedback_faction/
"Faction Materials have been added to the all the exploration Data site loot tables." - This HAS to be a bug, as I have never seen any of these items drop from standard Data sites. Angel Simple Trigger Mechanism, Guristas Gravity Focuser, etc need a confirmation from CCP that they are in the loot tables and the drop percentage is accurate. The previous bug with Faction BPCs having a ZERO percent droprate happened in Rubicon and wasn't fixed until Phoebe. I don't want to see it take that long again for this to be checked, and we've already been waiting on this since NOVEMBER without confirmation.
I agree that a lot of the problem with the value of Data sites is oversupply, and low demand. But I don't think you can argue that this is all a result of the Odyssey expansion significantly lowering the skill bar for doing exploration. A lot of the items added or replaced in the Data sites have very few practical uses, which makes them worthless. In addition, a lot of the Cruis industry changes are contributing to the problem.
- The new Industrial Goods added in Phoebe (High-Tech Data Chip, High-Tech Scanner, High-Tech Small Arms, High-Tech Manufacturing Tools) have ZERO manufacturing uses. Unknown if it was intended to just add them as flavor items and add manufacturing uses later. We've been waiting long enough that I expect CCP forgot or just doesn't care.
- The Faction Materials like Electric Conduit were fairly low in value already, but they had manufacturing uses for making Interfaces for doing Invention. When they removed the Interfaces in the Industrial expansion (Crius), they left these items in, but didn't add new uses for them. Basically they only thing they are good for at the moment is building certain COSMOS items, which the BPCs can be found now in some of the Sleeper Cache sites. These materials are just too common, and many of the COSMOS modules haven't been rebalanced yet and are inferior to the Meta/T2 versions, so they aren't worth building.
- The Invention rebalance in Cruis shifted around usage of Datacores to make them more even. They also homogenized the Decryptors so they were no longer racial. This shifted the values around for datacores but not to a significant degree. The problem with the Decryptors the price went down as supply increased, as any region can now provide them. The main problem with supply here is the multiple ways of getting Datacores - especially from Faction Warfare.
- How the Ancient Relic market crashed after Cruis changed the process to Reverse Engineer for T3 ships and subsystems to the Invention process is a complex issue. Some of the W-Space guys will need to chime in on this. There is less demand for Ancient Relics for inventing subsystems because while there is still a failure chance, you can choose which subsystem you are trying to invent. Not saying this is a bad thing, but the effect was the nosedive of all Ancient Relics by 60-70%.
How I would fix some of this:
- Fix the drop rate for Faction Materials (Angel Simple Trigger Mechanism) in Data Sites!
- Add demand for the added Industrial Goods (High-Tech Data Chip) and the neglected Faction Materials (Electric Conduit) by making them components for new manufacturable items. This could be the upcoming player built Sov Structures and Upgrades- Administration Hubs, Advertisement Centers, Observatory Arrays, Market Hubs, Drilling Platforms, etc. There are tons of new opportunities to use these items in industry to give them value. Don't forget about them!
- Reduce Datacore supply by removing them from Faction Warfare LP stores. Faction Warfare had Datacores added to the LP stores in 2012, and there are tons of items they uniquely provide (Faction Ship and Module BPCs, Faction Ammo). With the Odyssey expansion, so many more pilots can do Exploration and collect Datacores, and the profession alone can supply the market. There was discussion at Fanfest about player owned stations generating Datacores - CCP really needs a consistent vision for this.
- Continue rebalancing COSMOS and Storyline items with the Module Tiercide, making sure they have valuable uses compared to Meta/T2/Deadspace/Faction. This will drive up demand for the modules which the BPCs can be picked up by doing Sleeper Cache sites and COSMOS missions; and the components through Data sites.
- Take a hard look at the data, and evaluate how the Crius industry rebalance has affected the T2 industry via the invention process. Decryptor drop rates may need adjustment, but there is no easy fix here. Considering how Industry Teams were added and then just removed, I don't have a lot of hope here - there is no easy fix.
- Take a hard look at W-Space Data/Relic site drops and value. A lot of this is market demand, but the invention changes really messed with demand for Ancient Relics for building subsystems. Talocan Wrecks (Small, Intact) still have, value but have dropped a lot. Drop rates may need to be adjusted in line with the upcoming T3 Strategic Cruiser rebalance, which will make some subsystems more popular. Success chances for invention may need rebalancing.
- Find new uses for the Sleeper Science skills - possibly in relation to the Drifter Tech and new Shattered Wormholes. These skills (Sleeper Technology, Takmahl Technology, Talocan Technology, Yan Jung Technology) are not used for invention, but only storyline module manufacturing.
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union - "Turning Lead into Gold since 2008"
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2289
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Posted - 2015.05.13 01:18:50 -
[24] - Quote
I'm glad you're thinking constructively about solutions for data sites, but I'm rather concerned that some of your suggestions are short-sighted.
Ransu Asanari wrote:Add demand for the added Industrial Goods (High-Tech Data Chip) and the neglected Faction Materials (Electric Conduit) by making them components for new manufacturable items. This could be the upcoming player built Sov Structures and Upgrades- Administration Hubs, Advertisement Centers, Observatory Arrays, Market Hubs, Drilling Platforms, etc. There are tons of new opportunities to use these items in industry to give them value. Don't forget about them!
Couldn't agree more. Make these things useful on some sort of non-trivial scale and you'd automatically increase data site value.
Ransu Asanari wrote:Reduce Datacore supply by removing them from Faction Warfare LP stores. Faction Warfare had Datacores added to the LP stores in 2012, and there are tons of items they uniquely provide (Faction Ship and Module BPCs, Faction Ammo). With the Odyssey expansion, so many more pilots can do Exploration and collect Datacores, and the profession alone can supply the market. There was discussion at Fanfest about player owned stations generating Datacores - CCP really needs a consistent vision for this.
I'm very concerned about this suggestion. I'm not sure anyone in this thread runs an industrial operation large enough to appreciate just how very, very many datacores are consumed by invention. Any reduction in supply here, let alone cutting off THE primary source, would have very serious effects on the market. T2 modules and ships, already questionably better than meta 4 in many cases, would skyrocket in price. The inflationary ramifications on the entire economy are actually hard to overstate.
To put this in perspective, when I'm active I run one account full of industry. Two of the three characters can invent T2 items; all three can build them and their components. That single account run optimally can consume multiple billions of ISK in datacores per month -- and that's at current prices. And let's be clear here: this is a small operation. Very small. Drop in the bucket. If the supply of datacores was reduced by 50%, price would have to at least double which in turn could on average double the price of every single T2 item in the game. That's a huge shock to the economy.
Now, you could of course increase the drop rates of datacores while dropping them from FW in the hopes that whole thing would wash out to even prices but more profits for exploration. I'm not as opposed to that idea. It's not without risk, of course, but it might at least work without hitting the entire T2 economy in the nards.
Ransu Asanari wrote:Continue rebalancing COSMOS and Storyline items with the Module Tiercide, making sure they have valuable uses compared to Meta/T2/Deadspace/Faction. This will drive up demand for the modules which the BPCs can be picked up by doing Sleeper Cache sites and COSMOS missions; and the components through Data sites.
I don't see this as much of a solution. There would have to be far more blueprints in circulation to make this worthwhile. As is, the crappy modules aren't helping anything but even the good modules don't lead to high component prices.
Ransu Asanari wrote:Take a hard look at the data, and evaluate how the Crius industry rebalance has affected the T2 industry via the invention process. Decryptor drop rates may need adjustment, but there is no easy fix here. Considering how Industry Teams were added and then just removed, I don't have a lot of hope here - there is no easy fix.
Decryptors aren't worth as much in invention; that much is true. I'd like to see that change but it is indeed a deep hole to go down.
Ransu Asanari wrote:Take a hard look at W-Space Data/Relic site drops and value. A lot of this is market demand, but the invention changes really messed with demand for Ancient Relics for building subsystems. Talocan Wrecks (Small, Intact) still have, value but have dropped a lot. Drop rates may need to be adjusted in line with the upcoming T3 Strategic Cruiser rebalance, which will make some subsystems more popular. Success chances for invention may need rebalancing.
Find new uses for the Sleeper Science skills - possibly in relation to the Drifter Tech and new Shattered Wormholes. These skills (Sleeper Technology, Takmahl Technology, Talocan Technology, Yan Jung Technology) are not used for invention, but only storyline module manufacturing.
I'm not sure how these act as a solution to the problem at hand but I can't really disagree with either. |
DB Jones
Holland Investment Group
1
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Posted - 2015.05.13 03:17:53 -
[25] - Quote
perhaps add datecores to the bill of materials for manufacturing, so they're used in both invention and manufacturing.?
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Ransu Asanari
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union Mordus Angels
229
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Posted - 2015.05.14 21:30:43 -
[26] - Quote
Zhilia Mann thanks for your feedback.
To address your main concern - I understand that there is a huge amount of datacores used in T2 invention - I do a bit of it myself, and I'm constantly buying huge supplies of Datacores and moving them to a station to run invention jobs. Even though I benefit from this, I do think that Datacores are too abundant and cheap currently.
The recent invention rebalance smoothed out the usages of specific ones, such as Mechanical Engineering, which used to be the easy LP to ISK dump from FW.
CCP could look at the number of datacores coming from various sources - Faction Warfare, Research Agents, and Data Sites. That would ensure that tweaking the faucet for these, the remaining sources would still be able to supply the demand. Increasing the drop rate of Datacores in Data sites, and increasing the LP cost for them from Faction Warfare would make it easier to balance, while not letting the supply constrict enough to drive the price up sharply.
I do think that "Gun Mining" is something that is to be discouraged - we've seen changes like removing the Drone Alloys, and the module reprocessing nerfs happen to reduce the profitability of this. Along the same lines, having the majority of Datacores sourced from missions and plexing via the Faction Warfare LP store is a bit counterintuitive. I'd like to see more of the research and manufacturing chains tied to industry and exploration activities.
That said, CCP already seems to have some plans around alternate sources for Datacores - check out this Fanfest presentation on Research Structures:
https://youtu.be/Hen92QFrDUo?t=1064
I don't like the idea of the structure itself generating Datacores passively. The Research Agents are already so irrelevant I don't know why they would replace them with another passive source. Hopefully they just have a solid plan with how they want to tie in the new structures for industry and invention.
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union - "Turning Lead into Gold since 2008"
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Lendren
Blaze Orange Expeditions Absence of Light
7
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Posted - 2015.05.18 22:32:23 -
[27] - Quote
Buoytender Bob wrote:Exception,of course, are the sleeper sites which appear rarer and rarer as the weeks go on.
I find at least 1 sleeper sight every time i go out, sometimes more.
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Shon Anzomi
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2015.05.19 10:52:02 -
[28] - Quote
I don't really agree with that
a) you can't cherrypick your hacking at data the same way as with relics
b) that there isn't anything valuable at datasites.
a) Databanks are usually worth much more than com towers. But if databanks are crap or have nothing in them, then one of the com towers will have some interesting stuff in it.
b) I found some faction POS stuff at datasites, in some occasion even in high sec data site. That could easily earn you > 50MM ISK for that site if you use that BPC.
What I agree is that it takes much more time to find something useful at data site. But when it happens, its usually something nice and shiny which sells well. Relics are much more consistent but they dont surprise much in positive way with exception to those cans that have like 90MM stuff in them :D |
Sam Spock
The Arnold Connection
54
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Posted - 2015.05.28 17:58:07 -
[29] - Quote
Ransu Asanari wrote:Glad to see others are still upset about the current state of Data Sites. Here is a feedback thread from Februrary (3 months ago!) and nothing has changed since then: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2w6ge1/phoebe_exploration_data_site_feedback_faction/"Faction Materials have been added to the all the exploration Data site loot tables." - This HAS to be a bug, as I have never seen any of these items drop from standard Data sites. Angel Simple Trigger Mechanism, Guristas Gravity Focuser, etc need a confirmation from CCP that they are in the loot tables and the drop percentage is accurate. The previous bug with Faction BPCs having a ZERO percent droprate happened in Rubicon and wasn't fixed until Phoebe. I don't want to see it take that long again for this to be checked, and we've already been waiting on this since NOVEMBER without confirmation.
I have gotten a few of these in high sec sites. VERY low drop rate though. Most of the storyline bpc's that need them that I have gotten always seem to want ones that are super rare and makes them not worth building. They need to fix this.
One thing they could do is remove decryptors from the sties and replace them with decryptor bpc's with various run amounts (1, 3, 10, 25 etc) and use the trade goods and faction parts to build them.
As it is you never get more than one of any type of decryptor from a can. You can get one each of four different ones but never more than one each.
Chances are the trade goods will stay worthless since it could be a big market shock to suddenly give them a use and therefore a value.
I would love to see very low drop chances for faction module bpc's from these sites as well. About the same rate as tower bpc's would do.
Giving you Inconsistent grammar, speilling and Punct-uation since 1974!
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Starbuck05
Pretty Hate Machine.
259
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Posted - 2015.05.30 20:45:57 -
[30] - Quote
Shon Anzomi wrote:I don't really agree with that
a) you can't cherrypick your hacking at data the same way as with relics
b) that there isn't anything valuable at datasites.
a) Databanks are usually worth much more than com towers. But if databanks are crap or have nothing in them, then one of the com towers will have some interesting stuff in it.
b) I found some faction POS stuff at datasites, in some occasion even in high sec data site. That could easily earn you > 50MM ISK for that site if you use that BPC.
What I agree is that it takes much more time to find something useful at data site. But when it happens, its usually something nice and shiny which sells well. Relics are much more consistent but they dont surprise much in positive way with exception to those cans that have like 90MM stuff in them :D
If you think relics are consistent then explain how i got a 2 bil worth faction tower bpc? They are consistent-ish and even so ..data sites still don't compare. I run them in whs and every relic site nets me avarage 20 mil at the very least while you admited yourself you SOMETIMES find datas with 50 mil value in them.
Just today for example i've done 5-6 relic sites and walked away with 150 mil and it did not took me an hour.
Personaly evertime i see a data site i just curse my monitor.
While i have no ideea myself how to improve the situation other then some good solutions written so far, i would very much like to see some improvement.
-á- I am the commanding officer , u should adress me as sir !
-á- But if i call u sir , what would i call your wife then ??
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